 No, I think it's a challenge. I think even when you're kind of getting a budget to your stuff, when you're working with companies you're getting a budget, you do still find yourself kind of realizing that it's a lot of work to make something even, you know, sometimes even the money you're getting a budget, you kind of doesn't feel like it's kind of properly remunerating you for your time. So it does become a labour of love. It's hard, I don't know. I mean, I really admire, there's a guy, Payne Lindsay, who makes up and banished, which is a true crime podcast. He's done a couple of series of it, and he's also made a thing called Atlanta Monster. And he's like, I don't know whether you believe it's all true, but it seems like from the way he tells his story that he was just a bloke in his bedroom who decided to, he liked serial, he enjoyed watching serial, he decided to make his own true crime podcast, found the story and told it. And it kind of went from being really organic and nothing where like in the first few episodes he's offering some of his granny's homemade cookies as an incentive for the prize for people kind of emailing him in and some competition to buy the end of it. He's got millions of listeners and he's effectively solved the crime. And he's built this empire. And now he gets a lot of stick for having too many adverts in this show. And it is sometimes a little bit hard to listen to because there are like, you know, you know, he'll be talking about a really kind of terrible crime. And then suddenly it's like, you know, I want to advertise his underpants to you. These are the most comfortable underpants I've ever worn, you know. And the next minute it's like, this is a great bed. And, you know, why not buy some cheese, you know, but he's built this empire and he's making quite a lot of money out of it now. He's got millions and millions of people listening to his podcast. And I admire that kind of entrepreneurial spirit that exists in podcast land. And that's why I sometimes say it's a bit like the Wild West, you know, you do get these people can kind of like the gold rush, you can get these people to kind of come in and kind of do really well and build this thing out of nothing. And I think that's possible. I think that that's maybe is that the kind of pot at the end of the rainbow that keeps us all going in the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow that that's what kept all the prospectors coming in the gold rush. The idea that one person had discovered gold and maybe you could do it and kept them all working very hard, you know, on starvation rations, thinking that one day they might find that gold. And I think all of us making podcasts have that dream that our thing could go big, it could be like cereal. And you can really see your thing growing, can't you? And growing like if you know, if you're following iTunes stuff, you can see it creeping up a chart, you can see like how many people subscribing, you can see the ratings and reviews coming through. And it's that relationship with the audience that I think is very exciting. But it does send you a little bit mad as well. Like, you know, you do become a bit like the addict kind of chasing this stuff all the time. And I don't know, I think it's sort of how to drive yourself mad, set up your own podcast. The rewards are huge. But it isn't easy. It isn't easy to make a good living out of it and to find funds for it. I think there's always going to be an element of labor of love about it. That's Danny Robbins. And this is the podcast producers podcast with me Neil Mossy. It's a place where podcast producers share their tips and experiences so that everyone can start a podcast and keep going. There's details of how to subscribe in the description. Thanks so much for getting to this point in the podcast. And thanks again to Danny, the links to him and his podcasts are in the description. And if you've got this far into the podcast, it's really good to have you here. Why not give me a thumbs up or a comment or tweet me. It'd be lovely to hear from you. And there's also details in the description for where you can find the next episode. Can you please help my daddy get 1000 subscribers? Just click on his face. Thanks. Bye.