 And it's so one of the things that I also hear you talk about is this idea of nuance and this idea of a spectrum when we think about criminal justice and you know your point that we're talking with our backs against each other and we definitely in our policy conversations have people who really believe in those punitive tools and we have a lot of policy discourse around that and then we have policy discourse around dismantling the tools abolishing the tool those kinds of tools etc because of the fundamental argument that the criminal justice system is so fraught and so problematic that it's that it's really beyond repair and in in a the a just society we we really need to kind of dismantle this infrastructure that has been built and built and built so help us understand where we can find common ground help us understand the frameworks that you use to operate in a space of nuance on this particular issue first is treating everyone as an individual and not saying for example oh you know if you commit a property crime I'm gonna throw you under the jail you know every case is different every person is different and I think that you have to consider consider everything that got them in front of you and you know so the example that I used in a talk earlier today was you know during the the opiate crisis you know Haya was hit very hard with the opiate crisis and so you know the stories that you read in the news where you know someone had lived a law abiding life they get in an accident they get prescribed a certain drug and they like it and you know it just goes from the prescription to the heroin then possibly to crack and and so you know I have to look at and say to myself even wow like this this person particularly ones with licenses because you know all of us who have to get a license and then keep that license like we protect that license so to say like wow like this person went to school got this license and Sacra like sacrificed it you know you can look at that as you know nurse you abused your ability to have access to this drug or you can look at it as addiction is so strong that you are willing to sacrifice everything you worked for because that is that is how strong this addiction is you know and so I have to look at that person one way and following my example from earlier you know I have to look at the person who received a vial of heroin for their ninth birthday from their parents I have to look at them a different way I can't it's hard to even have one policy even that's gonna address both of those people and I know that I have a lot of extreme stories right but it's very important I think that you know if you think that everyone should go to prison I want you to hear my story about the person who said I saved their life by putting them in drug treatment if you don't think anybody should go to prison I want you to hear some of my more graphic stories that would very much shock you about murder and about rape and I'm not talking about these in the abstract when you are in a courtroom whether you're involved in the system or not these are people yeah you know a rape victim I hated that she even had to ask she had a dog for protection after she had been horribly raped everywhere she could be raped in front of her boyfriend and I hated that she felt like she had to ask because she bring her dog in my courtroom because I'm like you bring whatever you need to get through this and so I think we it's important to share the stories and it's important not to talk about this topic like this yeah because you're you're ignoring what you don't want to see and it's also very important that we distinguish especially in criminal justice area it's so important that we distinguish between uncomfortable facts and opinion because especially when you're talking about crime it's almost always uncomfortable facts it's facts that make you adjust in your chair and you know and I also don't want to leave out civil law because I will also never forget having a medical malpractice trial and what happened was a woman was saying that her OBGYN did not give her a C-section fast enough and so the baby was the baby had I think some type of palsy I'm not sure what it was but he that the child could not see could not hear could not even swallow on his own and so I will never forget the moment when that child came in the courtroom and I realized there is nothing I can do to fix this child and I had to have that realization my job there was there was a dispute as to whether the doctor was wrong or not and I was the referee to get the situation resolved but it couldn't really be resolved because like I said nothing was going to fix that little boy what had happened in that moment right and what decisions got made right moment right