 So if you could wrap up those undoubtedly intriguing conversations and give us your attention I would like to introduce the gentleman of the evening a fellow who is no stranger to To the magic castle or the magic world as we'll be discussing But as is also evidenced by how many of you have come out to see him this evening To try and list this one individual's credits would take a very long time Which is why we're going to do it during the interview and We're gonna fill that up with not only a lot of information Hopefully some of which will be news to you surprising things about some of this gentleman's accomplishments But also we're gonna talk about some of the behind-the-scenes stuff and some of the ideas that have informed his campaigns and Crusades shall we use that term lightly? So without further ado, would you please welcome a gentleman who truly does deserve the moniker? Amazing James Randy. I don't think I need it or do I? No, we have two mics one is for the cameras. This is so they can hear us You got me so if you have something that you would like the cameras to hear but not them do that Okay, all right. Yeah, whatever Very good to see you They never worked with me the batteries one. Oh, yeah, thank you Max. I haven't seen you and how many years it's been a bunch I don't remember how many there you go five years six seven. So we were both young as well. You barely change Yeah, I was looking at some photographs of you from 1950s. You have changed since then. That's true But you hit a certain point background I think 1974 and you look exactly the same then as now I don't know if this is evidence of Well, what is it? Let me tell you a bit of a story in that now you didn't ask but I'm gonna volunteer this I work for colleges and universities all over the world and I love the work now when I'm doing that I'm not doing a magic show. I do some mentalism during it in order to show My audience how the so-called psychic work It's an illustration of how they do their thing. I don't give away any of your material because it's possible to do that and But This is is a strange thing and it'll just show you how we're going downhill in some respects I Used to use the line people talk to me After these shows and they often comment, you know, you don't seem to be getting any older tall You look about the same as you did about 30 years ago and I would look at them and say yes That's true, but I have a painting in my attic I Don't use that mind anymore because they don't laugh They don't know what I'm referring to and I look over the audience and I've given it up quite some time ago But I look over the audience hoping I'll find a teacher of English literature perhaps And I I say Dorian gray Nothing, okay moving right along, but I don't use that line any longer Can you believe it that there's a generation now when I get a generation where I mentioned Johnny Carton and they say who? I know I'm in deep trouble, but I hope I live that long Well the fact that so many people here obviously did get the Dorian gray reference Indicates that we have both a literate audience and an old Audience What's wrong with being old there's nothing wrong with that right now at all yeah in fact in fact If correct me if I am wrong Sarah, but I believe you at this moment are 82. That's water. They told me Is it 82? I am 82 Yes, I'm going to go on strong still at it Now I want to turn the clock back a little bit I don't really want to run through a kind of chronological biography First of all because we'd be here till tomorrow morning Very true, but second of all a lot of your accomplishments are well known But I want to just take a moment to talk about the very early days. What got you started in magic as a kid What got you involved in certain specific? fields of magic and What led to you're getting arrested for busting up a church meeting and this is all early stuff And then we can then we can come to more recent events about the age of 11 and we can start off again. Yes well I Well just a very brief background not going to go in great detail on this I was one of those child prodigy things and it was a very seriously very unhappy time of my life Because I didn't have a peer group. I was mixing with kids that were six and eight years older than I was and They were already in school and in high school and such But I got a special pass from the distance in Toronto, Canada Actually, if you're from Toronto, we have to say trauma TRA NNA you see that's the way they say it if not and if they don't spell it that way That's their fault. I Had special pass a little card that I carried with me. It was apparently very seldom issued But it was a truancy past to show to true and truancy officers If I was found on a bus or a streetcar somewhere or perhaps in a theater even Oh, there's the thought when I was supposed to be in school And I lost that only about seven or eight years ago What a pity that was a great souvenir because I'd like to look it out of my wall and say I'm legal but Being a child prodigy like that way again was not a happy time of my life but I Got a lot of free time. I used to hang out around the Royal Ontario Museum in Toronto and also at the Toronto Public Library and I got to go to Wednesday afternoon matinees and It cost 14 cents in those days. Can you imagine? I was hard to come up with that 14 cents and I went there one time when Man named Harry Blackstone was featured. I Had never seen a magician before and Seeing Harry black. I'm speaking senior now, of course I'm seeing Harry Blackstone and watching him stand there on the stage Princess Astra rising in the air and then pausing and turning to the audience and saying he had a list As you probably know You see this young lady Dispended in the air between heaven and earth She could stay there. Should I so desire? For a thousand years in a day, but in the interest of time and in your patience I will return her to the couch from which she rose only a moment ago Princess And the music would start up and she would come back down and in the second balcony. That was 14 cents. I Was totally captivated. I thought Damn gotta be a reason for this could it be hypnosis secret drugs in the drinking water? What is it or? damn, maybe it's a trick and I decided that was probably it and I set out to find out how it was done my first step was to walk outside the theater at the end of the show all the way around the back and Finding Harry Blackstone with his wing collar open No air conditioning on those days and fanning himself like crazy And he came over to me. He said just some man. What can I do for you? I said, well, I'm sort of interested in what you do here He took me backstage this lovely old gentleman among the equipment and into the dressing room Took a poster The one that you see here in the castle on the main floor the one with the levitated camel Very very famous poster was a fortune these days I'm sure and he signed it to Randall that my original first name and They signed it Harry Blackstone roll it up. He taught me the paddle move Most of us know what that is, right? You don't know how to it A deep secret that I can't share with you. I'm sorry The paddle move I did that for the next six weeks. I swear. I'm still pretty good at it and I took the poster Got on to the the tram Rowed up to the side where I lived at the time the north end of Toronto got on the bus transferred over to the bus Got home walked in the door very very late and my mother was very annoyed at me And I looked I didn't have the poster Some place in a bus in Toronto, Canada there is a poster riding around in the back seat With my name on it Signed by Harry Blackstone. Yes. I never saw that poster again. I was Devastated, but it had its reward Because every year after that that Harry Blackstone came at about the same time in the autumn To the casino theater in Toronto, Canada We would receive four tickets at my home in the mail and we went every year to see that gentleman Oh my goodness, Harry Blackstone senior. I got to know junior of actually two for many years but Senior had won my heart and he was the one who was responsible for getting me into the magic trade I joined the Hatton Rabbit Club in Toronto, Canada still active. Oh, yes the IBM Group there and in fact we formed our own club Yes, but that was what was it called the um, oh goodness, all right Memory is failing me at the moment. It'll come to me in about 20 minutes And I'll yell okay if you suddenly blurt out the name Yeah, you'll know what that is. We'll connect it back to that. All right, and yeah We formed our own little group there and I junior member But most of us weren't old enough to join the Hatton Rabbit Club I was very distinguished only people this guy, you know, I was this high and I still am Now at what point Obviously you started with the battle trick watching illusion shows that suggests an eclectic interest But you began to specialize at a fairly young age in a couple of very Narrowly defined areas of magic. Yep. I Specialized in mentalism and you're familiar with the art. I believe I've heard of it I Hope that Yes, I started out as a as a mentalist and I soon found that I could make very big money yet. Oh Kids birthday parties and such as many as five dollars at a shot. Wow And that was very good for a kid my age But again remember that I was on this list of kids that didn't have to go to school I went at the age of 17. I went to high school because I had to develop a Peer group. I hadn't mixed with kids. I didn't know one kid from the other and didn't have any close friends in that direction but I Was well into magic by that time and I discovered mentalism along the way when I saw a gentleman Little later named Chan canasta. You may know the name Chan can ask it So I'm view will and of course you would know and he did a book test That was a book test Matter of fact, but I must tell you and Chan is no longer with us. Correct, right? Not that many years ago, but all right well When I saw Chan canasta do the book test I didn't figure it out the first time but they went to see a second show leader on the day and I figured out that's pretty damn clever Wow And I developed my own little version of it over the years anybody would like to see me do it they go to the The magic library, which is not too far from where I sit at this very moment We may select a couple of books off the shelf there and I may demonstrate for you if you'd like to see it My own particular All right, but that was that was the first thing that I practiced I actually I got paid 75 dollars a week at a local nightclub doing table work From one table to the and you were at what age at this point? I was 17. I guess 17 So you couldn't drink but you could do car tricks in Canada. We drag since we were eight. Oh, sorry None of this limitation Canada. We're real guys, you know, hey hey give me another one of them Yeah Oh, no, that was that was my introduction to performing in public and everything and it served me well. I believe All right now Where does busting up the the the church come in? Because this is still pretty early. Oh, yeah, that was that was way back when now I was very curious about the Spiritualists and my dreams that you were coming to town And there was a one fellow named little david I won't get into the story of little david that would take far too long to tell But um, there were a couple of them that were holding out at local churches and my good friend Terence Kingsley Lawson Just recently deceased my boyhood chum. He was into magic before I was as a matter of fact And I worked as his assistant for some time. He drove a stew to baker That's heavy. You have no idea that he could actually drive it himself. Wow And he drove me around and we had a wonderful time. I learned a great deal about meeting crowds and Falling on your face and everything because he did that and I did that from time to time But uh, you know, uh, Terence Kingsley Lawson Came to me and informed me that there was a spirit church on queen street West That was operating and he had been in there and had been amused by what he saw Now what was happening is the the fellow in there was doing the one ahead method I think I need not describe that in detail to this august group And um, it was very simple. It was very obvious what was happening And I I chose to first of all, I put a question in saying Is pete in heaven? pete was my parakeet, but I didn't mention that And apparently he was and he had all kinds of friends that he met from that he had met in school Do you see that are in heaven now? I didn't know that I ever sent the parakeet to school and I had no memory of it But whatsoever if that's what happened, but I I when that question was answered I stood up and I marched forward looked in the trash basket and came out with the letters and Described very briefly the one ahead method to this congregation who was sitting there very annoyed at what I was trying to do Because they just wanted to hear the answer to their question And uh, which was not coming from the spirit world I might mention in passing And uh, they called the cops that were right across the street on queen street the queen street west station I remember it firmly my father. It was a sunday and my father was out on the golf course someplace Uh, and maybe in the middle of the putt they came rushing up to him and said call your home call your home your son has been arrested And uh, they they had something taken me across the street The the cops were very understanding and they called my father And they they just let me sit on a bench in one of the cells. They didn't close the cell door or anything like that Grant that would have been a great combo. Don't you think? Nonetheless, my father had to come and get me and that was not a happy evening for me My father had to break up his golf game And come and get me and brought me home and gave me quite a talking to So that was uh, how I broke up a religious meeting and I played guilty as charged your honor And so the seeds of the future were so Yeah, so yeah But this check this out for a transition Uh, you were putting jail and managed to escape through the good graces of your death. Yes. Yes But it wasn't too much after that that sherry started escaping from jail cells through other means Well, I had always been curious about locks wanted to see how they worked It took a lot of them apart and didn't solve it because Somewhere along the line of taking a part of pin tumbler lock. I'd hear something had taken off and landed across the room But I eventually solved the thing and I got pretty good at picking the locks And I still have a bit of a touch for it if you want to challenge me sometimes But I pin tumbler locks and lever locks lever locks were relatively easy if you had the right tools and I found out how to make the right tools So I I took up the business of being an escape artist, but I took it up Just learning locks. It was one thing. I I didn't want to do it seriously, but in Quebec City One year much later I was working at a nightclub there and I noticed two plug ugly guys sitting at a side table Nursing beers and I didn't pay much attention to them, but they were there for the second show too Looking at me very carefully. I was doing rope escapes and a few things like that and a Siberian chain escape I had a really good version of it and I was called over after the second show there were three shows tonight And I was called over after the second show and they sat me down and they said Can you escape from these and out came a pair of handcuffs Now handcuffs are relatively simple locks. They're simple lever locks And I think you can get into the keyhole. You can use to open them generally speaking That's not where their repair of handcuffs not by any means as I subsequently found out on a couple of strange occasions but We won't get into all those details But I said, oh, yes, I can't sure you do that. You want to try them? I said, well, they'll see me after the next show I have one more show to do and they said, okay, we'll be waiting outside Okay, that's not well, I'm gonna see them again. So I did the third show packed up the props Put them on my arm went down the stair. I was using a duck at the time. So the duck all the way down the stairs and Ducks go up very fast About six or eight days is the most you can get out of them and then they have to go someplace else I don't want to get into the details on that either But then you replace them with a smaller version you see but again, I digress I digress So I walked outside and there was a squad car and I hope she's I forgot all about this And they invited me into the squad car so I handed over all the props and the little bags that I had and such and I Went inside and one side and almost immediately got out the other side with the hand comes off And da they were quite amazed to that and then they touted with could you escape from our jail? I said, well, I have to take a look at it and they bundled me back into the car Off we went got to the jail. Oh, what a cinch It was really a cinch guys. I If you're interested later Individually, I can I can tell you this story how easy it was But they made it as difficult as they could they took a pair of handcuffs and they stood me up on a bench And stretched my arms up and then they put them around the the barred Window it led to the outside and so my my hands were held in this position with the chain going around I thought well, this is not quite fair. But I managed to get out of it and I walked out of the jail cell And there was a reporter there by that time That apparently not much was happening in town I was the most exciting thing available And there had been no earthquakes or hurricanes recently. So, uh, the next day The Quebec Soleil the sun that is I came out with an article that said, um Les temps grandies s'est va de la prison de Québec The amazing Randy, I had never used that title before but the astonishing or the amazing Randy The astonishing Randy wouldn't be a good title. It's too long on the car agenda. Well, yeah, so That's the first time anybody ever called me anything like that Uh, he escapes from the jail in Quebec and they had a short article And by golly, that was the first Article I'd ever gotten in the paper. So I decided to change my name to the amazing Randy immediately overnight And um, when I got to the club that night, there was a lineup outside I'd never seen a lineup out there. I thought oh, this is a lynch mob. I'm not sure But the manager came up to me said forget the duck and forget the the rings and all that crap He said to do an escape act of some kind where you get out of things I don't do any of that sort of thing But uh, I I I got a hold of the local cop there and uh, he said oh, yeah, we have the street jacket down at the Well, the street jacket was 18 sizes too big It almost fell off me But nonetheless, it was effective enough And I did an escape act that night and then all next day I had a slave away to get another act ready as it was based on the escape thing They held me over two weeks. So hey, it was a great victory There's two weeks pay that I didn't know was coming But I was doing an escape act all of a sudden shortly after that. I was asked to go down to New york to work on a show called It was it called it's magic. I think it was just I think it was just called it's magic With paul trip. Yes remember paul trip the show was called it's magic. It was on cbs. That's right About 56 we're talking. That's true And it was done at the Ed Sullivan what we now know as the Ed Sullivan theater and paul trip the the week before and announcing it At the end of the program you said next week. We're going to have the amazing randy here who will escape While fastened in a straight jacket 10 feet 10 10 stories above the ground He tripped up on tripped up on it paul trip get it little pie. I get it and um, and that was true They hauled me up. Oh Jesus. I was way up there. I've got photographs of it as a matter of fact And the herald tribune the next day reported that he hung there like a great dead tuna That was not exactly the phrase I would have used but they did Maybe for the the initial part, but yeah, they usually don't get off Then a very lively tuna after that I would say yes But uh, yeah, I did the upside down straight jacket for the first time So now we're into the into the fifties it going into the sixties you are You are having great career success not only in north america, but I know you went over to england There are photographs of you suspending a woman in mid-air or semi in mid-air on the top of a building That was an invitation effect. Yes, it wasn't Despite me it was a suspension. I'm sorry. I was just thank you. No, it was a banquet. It was not an invitation it was the Abbot made it. Well, that's all I need to say But the point is you had a thriving career in nightclubs and television theaters all sorts of things Uh, you even passed through a phase And I'm not sure I should really bring this up in public But where you played a magic clown on television. Yes. Yes. And uh, as a matter of fact, I just recently came upon actual film I've seen some clips. Yeah, and I'm I'm having to find a place It's rather faded that will make good video out of that that I can put on dvd because some folks would like to see it I'm sure. Yeah, I was called by tico bono. Oh Bono most turkish taffy. Do you remember that? b o n o m o Bono all turkish taffy And it was very very popular Confection in the stories at that time and he did a program called the magic clown and uh, oh So many different magicians anyone who came to new york city would do the magic clown for about two or three weeks Because it was such heavy makeup. You didn't know who it was And you didn't care But you'd always see the next magic clown in tannins magic shop buying every trick he could find And learning it right there in the shop so that he could do it at four o'clock in the afternoon You see but that was always a comic thing. We'd go in there to see the magic clown shopping for his tricks but Yeah, uh tico bono. Well after the magic clown series was finished gave me a call and he asked me to go to Washington dc where he was opening a chain of restaurants I called foodinis Spare me spare me But it was a hell of a nice restaurant. It was really very good and they had Canvas fact chairs with blackstone thurston and all these different physicians named on them And uh, I ended up managing the shows for him. Can I tell you a bobby baxter story? Anybody here remember bobby baxter? He was mostly known on the east coast, but he just died recently one of the great Great comedy magicians of all time. Oh, yes With a weakness And that weakness took place When we put them on say now we needed seven minutes out of the artist The little curtain on a little round stage or an arc to stage there would go up and Good evening. One is there and the diners were there. They wanted to turn those tables over You see they wanted fresh customers in there They didn't want to do a half hour show because they'd freeze at the tables not buy any more groceries so, um Seven minutes was the absolute limit and allen guyen now known as Alan a lane new a lane you I'm very sorry. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you very much He was that was his first gig ever that he worked at foodie knees and you'll be glad to admit that to you But he did very well. I saw he had genius real genius and a great personality but there were all kinds of of wonderful artists that worked there but they had to do seven minutes and bobby didn't have much work at the time He was in new york sort of I'm feeling sorry for himself and rightly so And I was in Washington. So I gave him a call. I said come on down. We'll do a few weeks Oh, he was very grateful to have he got down there And and I told him the seven minutes thing. He said, well, I can't really do anything in seven minutes I said bobby, that's the rule. We have to do it in seven minutes management is very heavy on this He went out there and he did 20 minutes the very first show We had to ring down the curtain on him and he told me backstage. He said but they were still laughing He couldn't understand how you could possibly bring down the curtain and anybody where the audience was still laughing But he didn't understand this basic fact of seven minutes Bobby was one of these performers who the secret is too late now But the secret to getting bobby to stick to seven minutes is to tell him he's only got three minutes See, I didn't know that you'll get yourself. You should have been around max I wasn't there to thank you very much. Thanks a lot But yeah, no, we uh, we actually just had to dismiss him after the first two weeks Unfortunately because he would not stop. He got carried away His blood would race and his pulse would rise. I'm sure I never tested it But I'm sure that that's what happened. But bobby was but he was a great artist. It was tremendous Oh, just he had the audience on the floor. We didn't want them on the floor We want to know at the door, but but nonetheless just handed me another effortless segue. Okay, because you just talked about blood boiling getting angry and upset and This leads us to a different aspect of your career because it's quite clear That had you so desired you could have continued Performing in nightclubs and theaters and tv and you were doing radio and all sorts of different things You could have continued purely as an entertainer and had a very thriving career. Oh, yeah, but she didn't You moved into a different position which hails back to that early seance busting event, but this now we're talking Really leading into the into the 70s Where you became known far better known in fact Despite all the success you had had as a magician and a an escape artist and For that matter an illusionist and and a hypnotist and all the other things you had done You became best known as the arch skeptic And it is Ever since then that is when your name comes up That's the first thing people think of or maybe vice versa When the term skepticism comes up, you're probably the first thing most people think of I sure as hell I hope so Yeah, so let's let's go there. Okay. Was there obviously you had an attitude toward this Early on because we talked about your your experience with the the church seance When you were still a teenager Was there an event in adulthood that made you decide this was more than An occasional thing. This was really something you wanted to pursue Well, I thought I would probably retire from the escape business, which is pretty strenuous You know hanging in stray jackets over in Niagara Falls is Something you can do for a certain number of years and then you get a bit tired of it and I I got tired of looking at the world upside down Uh, and I determined that probably at the age of 60, I would retire from the escape business and I had been receiving increasing inquiries from people About certain psychic before so-called psychic when I say it's always in quotes. Okay These performers who were claiming they had genuine supernatural powers I would get questions from people and I would say no, I believe not I think this is what he's using and such and They'd say oh, yeah, but I wasn't very convincing I guess Because people who want to believe these things will believe them no matter what evidence you give them Uh, short of a confession and even they say it's too bad. He had to confess and why like that, you know That's what they did with the fox sisters when they came out in public and admitted what they did as spiritualists and such The audience booed them and went out right on believing they they said oh, isn't it dreadful that they do this kind of thing Confessing for money. No, they made fortunes doing what they did lying to the audience and anyway that that That was something I'd always wanted to do and at the age of 60 I finally decided to hang up my straight jacket so to speak. That's a little expression that we use in the business It's hard to hang up too I've never thought of what it would be like to take your straight jacket to the laundry I did that occasionally and you know, they there was always a crowd waiting for me the following day when I came by to pick it up They wanted to see who the guy was who had a pet chimpanzee They weren't too sure what those long arms and the straps and such But I was a I was a bit of a circus act at the time. I guess just gave my my Straight jacket laundered. Anyway, yes, I um I had received these questions and I had had many teary-eyed people come to me and give me the story As they do at the James Randi educational foundation even today I've had families come by and and individuals and just pairs like married couples will come by and sit in the library And I give them a little confidential bit of advice that they will say things to me like Well, uh, our mother has the as the control of the the family money And she's given most of the way all the CDs has been cashed in and such to a faith here are a a psychic of some kind who Pretending to put her in touch with her deceased husband And uh, what can we do and unfortunately my answer has to be very disappointing If I could help I certainly would Gleefully Energetically, I would go all the way But there's not really much you can do with a convinced believer who has already given a great deal of money To somebody like that one of these charlatans Uh for the promise of being put in touch with loved ones for example, and um That's what made me decide that when I reached the age of 60 I would probably branch off into that aspect and uh, it was a huge success for me I started to do lectures at colleges and universities again all over the world I I traveled the globe every country except well, greenland. I've never touched Iceland I just did for the first time in a few weeks ago Wonderful place go wonderful thing. There's more than ice there. Believe me That charming people in a very very beautiful country. Uh, I get 25 cents every time I say this In front of an audience I just heard that That used to be a cash register. You see when we said that people in the Don't have those anymore You never heard of Johnny Carson Anyway, uh, yeah, I um I took uh into doing this Lectures these lectures and I as I say I've done them all over the world with a great deal of success And uh, my audience is not always all that friendly I sometimes get a very grumpy set in the front row. They always come Ordinary audience is never Yeah, but this is an exception There is are not grumpy or they're stealth grumpy. Yeah Stealth grumpy write that down. I like that Uh, yeah, I I decided to do that and I turned out My first book was the magic of a regular now known as the truth about a regular and somewhat expanded Uh, and no plans to rewrite that or to bring it up to date because mr. Geller is uh now seeking his successor Yeah, sure All over the world if you can possibly get the gig But my second one was flim flam. That was highly successful for me. It's still in print In fact, all of my books except one are still in print The one that isn't in print is it because of lack of interest or because there were some Issues about its no, it's a very limited book because it was published in connection with the series I did for granada tv in in the uk. Oh, yeah, yeah, and it was issued Concurrent with yeah constrained with no In connection with I don't know what the word is. I'm looking for concurrently and currently with the granada tv series and sold every copy that I know of I still have one in the library and that's it But it was never reprinted and it it dealt more or less with the Content of this yeah, it was an overview of the series Which by the by the producers two of the producers working on that show would be known to many people in this audience One being frankie glass. Oh, yeah, who is now married to jim steinmeyer? And she is a television producer of what a combination that is right for now She really is the other being david britland was involved with that series and david of course has been very involved with various magic on television projects indeed Yes, I had I had fun doing that at granada was was wonderful to me though really The only reason we didn't repeat the series was The bottom line and the thing was we never awarded the ten thousand dollar prize. It was ten thousand dollar prize in those days We never awarded the prize. There's no point in it then But someone just before this talk began someone in the audience Said to me is randy still giving out that ten thousand dollar prize that I said Well, you're not giving it out but But I said it's no longer ten thousand dollars. It is now a million dollars. Yeah, it has been for some years now Oh, yes for quite some years a gentleman showed up who obviously could afford it Handed me a check at the door as he was leaving He said oh, this is to make your challenge a little more interesting and interesting And they handed me a check for one million dollars. I got to tell you this too I'm sure I haven't told you this match, but I think you'll find it amusing The check was a small size check not one of the big ones, you know And uh, it had printed Actually printed on the check all the way around the border this check not good for more than one billion dollars I've never had to put that on my checks max, you know just in case the bank would wonder just to be sure Yeah, just to be sure But boy when you take that over to the bank and you lay it down you say I wanted to deposit this check The teller always looks at you with hooded eyelid, you know Yeah, sure Yeah, that's a real check Speaking of the million dollar challenge brings me and we're jumping around chronologically at this point, but you were involved early on in your in your skeptical efforts With the founding of a group called psychop the committee for the scientific investigation of claims of the paranormal And there are other groups as well Michael Schurmer is sitting somewhere over in this side right over there. There we go runs the magazine skeptic and With a variety of Events and lectures and so forth. Oh, yeah, but you eventually formed your own group The james randy educational foundation or j ref The president the new president of which is somewhere in the back Where are you jade? There he is right there But in this sort of reconstituting of j rev With a new president and making some changes in the in the structure and all of this Someone new has been brought in to be specifically in charge of Keeping tabs on protocol should someone try for that million dollar prize. Yeah, and it is a person who is known to pretty much everyone here Muah, no No, there are several people Oh, yes, by the check. Oh, yeah, no, no Handles it from a slightly different angle. Okay. Yeah Um, we get together and we discuss protocol because he interviews them and finds out all the little things that they require You know, I need to be uh sitting next to a right-handed person or something like that They all have strange things that they need, you know, the vibrations, right? I've got to be just right And you got to be careful of that no negative vibrations As a matter of fact, just to break this one second when I when I do the challenge I always tell people now and I don't do the challenge I don't involve myself in it because they all say that I put out evil vibrations No, they do that's the very common claim they make that's what the homeopaths even said after we had a Test with the royal society and the bbc that I had put out negative vibrations So I I always tell them all now Don't tell me when the test is taking place do it and then 48 hours after it's been done Summed up and put in the computer and on the paper and signed off on then tell me we did it You see so that I can't of course they they say that I can go back in time and do the same thing They have to come up with some sort of excuse as to why their favorite theory failed All right, let me toss out this question. Yeah, you've been offering versions of this prize for many years And no one thus far has as collected, but I'm using the phrase thus far. My question is this Do you think it's possible? I'm not asking if it's probable or likely Do you think it's possible that someone could come along and do something that absolutely You would say I I've got to give them the million dollars Well, first of all understand that there are two phases to the million dollar challenge First phase is what we call the preliminary phase and we arrange odds of success by chance alone to be about One in one thousand because if you can play the violin, you can play the violin You either can or you can't they should be possible to prove it But no one has ever passed the preliminary test the second one would be the formal test in which odds would have to be much higher because There is the chance that a fluke would occur where they would attain a A winning score and those things are all very carefully delineated There's they never have it never has to be any discussion as to whether or not they won The preliminary test in this case Because it's there you either did it or you didn't do it and you don't have to judge it You don't have to make a decision on the thing But yes, there is a chance that that could be done It's a very small chance because beating one in one thousand odds first Become eligible and then beating one in one billion odds. That's one in one billion You see well, but on the other hand Someone has to win the iris sweeps Exactly if you go along with that if there are enough people But you would think that right now outside the magic castle there would be line-ups of people Locking on the door wanted to be let in so they could do the fact there may be but we have a dress code Yeah, they use a direct address in sackcloth their Robot costumes or something but the question I asked kind of kind of has two different answers One is is it possible that someone could win the million dollars by Just luck alone because or Is it possible? I mean, do you think that it is possible that at some point someone shows up and says I can Douse for water let's say and you say I don't believe you and they say okay set up a test And they hit whatever the requirements are required. Yeah, yeah, whatever the protocol says. Yes So it is possible the chances are very small and hey, I made you too. I think I'll outlive it But my question again. I'm not talking here purely in terms of chances in terms of mathematics. I'm talking about Do you feel? It's conceivable. I'm not asking you to say it's likely or that you expected But do you think that it is possible? That somewhere there is someone who has for example a dowsing ability Oh, yeah a rare ability that that is so little seen that we've never seen it And yet they have an actual ability that warrants giving them the prize. Do you do you consider that a possibility or? It's a possibility. I can't see The the chance of it ever Happening because I don't see any modus whereby such a thing could work But let me go back a bit in time. Okay. I was on a radio program in new york city I forgot the name of the program now with stanley krypner a very noted parapsychologist And I'm sure you know I had a very honorable gentleman I I think he's dead wrong and the conclusions he comes to but he dedicated his life to it and okay. Thank you stanley as long as you're honest and with another fellow whose name escapes me altogether and They I think it was stanley who suggested. Why don't you put your money where your mouth is? Oh, I took that challenge. I said, yeah, all right I'll give a thousand dollars to anyone who can actually do what they say they can do in a paranormal occult or supernatural fashion And they had to have a sort of a done At the at the microphones and they sort of swallowed and I sort of swallowed too because I didn't have a thousand dollars But I tried to keep my bank account up to at least a thousand dollars in order to to stay relatively honest and this sort of thing But I offered that prize right off the top and that got some attention And particularly with stanley krypner because he thought oh you're going to lose your money. You see Uh, well, uh stanley's still around and I'm still around and the money is still around It's 1.2 million or something like that. DJ, do you know what it is? Wow. Hey, we're making money. Yeah, but uh That's invested and we take money off the top every now and then For scholarships and various other things, but we keep it at a minimum of one million dollars I had to put in 20 000 dollars on my own money About oh about three or four years ago when it actually dropped down below a million and they called me oh Panic panic panic and I put in the 20,000. That's where the MacArthur grand came in helpful. Very happily. Yes. Yes, but I uh, I found money and I found money I found that the the The market had improved somewhat and it rose up again and so I'm I'm safe again, but um Now the chances are too though. Yeah, that someone could come along with some technology Right some technology that would find water underground or I love that. You'll love this guys Uh, there is one dowsing rod out there the uh, the quad yeah the quadro rod Which is the one that was being sold to the military I know well, no, it's it looks exactly the same. There are no working parts under it So it is exactly the same thing of the ade 561. I think it is they just sold in the rock to find bombs Yeah, and and uh, I have a Well, I'd better not say what agency is with but he's aware with an american agency that that has some power over there Uh, and represents the american government and uh, he confides in him every now and then he said he has Actually seen with his own eyes them out with the ade 561 Scanning a a truck that might have had additions or something in it and oh scan Perfect. All right truck drove on 200 yards down the highway. Boom It blew up and killed some people as a matter of fact. So that that's just a little side story now. Where was I? Yes, dowsing rods. Um, yeah, no somebody may come along with said technology Oh, I was going to tell you about the um the quadro rod they have chips The chips that they put in the side of the of the the dowsing rod thing It's just a handle like that looks like a Like a like a pistol grip and it's got a rod sticking out that flops back and forth And that's supposed to point at the at the munitions or whatever they're looking for and one of the chips has the chips have things on them like explosives oxidizers various other things one of them has cdf on the side of it Coon dog finder It's specifically designed to find Coon dogs. I think it's only sold in arkansas that model. I'm not too sure but it used in iraq. Yes indeed And they have a clip on the side of it into which a polaroid remember polaroid pictures They don't even know that polaroid pictures don't exist any longer But it's the size of a polaroid picture So if you have a polaroid picture of your coon dog, you can put it in the side and it'll point at the coon dog. Yeah, sure But this is the kind of crazy business that we're in guys It's so strange sounds like they were using ted serios as a consultant Or something like that. They don't know ted serios in the other room. All right. Yes Picture in his closet in the attic Yeah, yeah You said something interesting just a moment ago that I want to call back to you. You were talking about sanly kripner and you mentioned that you Strongly disagree with his beliefs. Yes, but that you're friendly. Oh, yeah, and I think there is a perception on the part of a lot of people Particularly because when you are speaking in public whether it's on a tv show or making a speech at a university or what have you You're usually railing against The things you're against Yeah, and and the notion that you are friendly with people who have very different opinions I think may be a surprise to some of the people here Yes, it usually is but uh, all I require is honesty and stanly kripner has never Showed me and his writings or in his conversations with me. We've had many of them Um that he has ever been dishonest now I'll I'll give you a bit of an anecdote on that same story the The parapsychological association is a very large group of parapsychologists all around the world Uh, I consider a total loss cause of a Dutch service And they had a meeting in new jersey some years back Quite some years back and I lived in New York at the time And uh, I was asked to speak there and I spoke there to very mild acclaim Uh, and um, I button-hold John Beloff from the University of Edinburgh now deceased Uh, a dear man and an also very honest parapsychologist I never knew him to to uh to vary from strict truth And stanly kripner and I invited them to come and have lunch at my home It was not all that far away And uh, we sat around we had lunch and we had some laughs and finally I I settled back And I said, okay, I've got a question that I have to ask the two of you I said, uh, you've both been in this business now stanly for 35 years and you for 45 years or whatever and um Said that's a long time to spend in this profession And both of you admit that you've never found a positive, fruitful case of a paranormal occult or supernatural event of any kind And they they nodded at one another and that mean I said and you still stay in this same business with no positive results to show why and um Stanley said to john he said john i'll defer to you And john lean forward and he said yes, I believe I speak for stanley Now this floored me max You can understand why He looked me straight in the eye. He said because we're both scientists And we really honestly believe that there is something to be found there Well that set me back on my heels. I was stunned because he's absolutely right and and for a scientist To suspect that there is something in something he's looking for And you know Fleming would have thrown away the uh, the the moldy The petri dish, you know, right? He said, oh, they told me mold. What the hell you know No germs going there. Oh interesting boom throw it away, but he didn't do that and I had to look at the two of them say gentlemen and reach across the table Shook both their hands quite earnestly and I meant it absolutely. I said That's what I call real science I don't think the parapsychology is a real science because it doesn't have the evidence to support it Except any total evidence and that's not sufficient and they both nodded that mean said yes, that's quite true I said, but the fact that you're convinced and you're still pursuing it I have to salute And think about that now think about that seriously. Yeah, these are real scientists. Well, this is clearly Evidence of faith absolutely in the truest sense absolutely backed up by a genuine attitude of scientific inquiry rather than Funny games and I'll give you an example of what full of that as a matter of fact Because After I'd had that discussion with them and and after the alpha project It happened actually following the alpha project, which we may or may not get into In the time we had quick comment to bring you up to date The alpha project was two young fellows who were studied by Parapsychologists and after some months in which they produced well three years of years Where they produced phenomenal results They revealed themselves to be proteges brandies and that they had faked everything Thus proving that a a high level Research facility was easily due to one of the two I don't know what happened to to the other guy, but one of them is now known as banajak yeah, well the other fellow Mike Edward to came by to visit me at the foundation and Wonderful reunion and he came to our our annual Conferences as a matter of fact very nice, but two really nice guys Now where was I already that was project that was project alpha. Yeah around the same time. Yeah project alpha. Yes. Okay Now what was I I forgot what I was heading for there now project alpha scientific inquiry Yeah, what you're talking about krypner and bellow off. Yes stating that they yes legitimately believed there was something to be found and kudos to them, but were scientists First and foremost, so they were not leaping to Results that they hadn't proved Yes, very true And they said because they thought there was something there and that's why they pursued it What was the um, oh damn This is the result of chemotherapy. I explained what project alpha was. Yeah, I I I'm just coming out of chemotherapy By six months, and I I do have some recollection problems. I apologize for it, but it'll it'll pop back into my head I still have a good excuse for your short-term memory issues. Yeah, there you go. I just have to say well, I forgot Yes, so anyway, uh, yeah, let's leave that and I'll tell me occurred to me now blur to this Let's take a slight tangent leave. Okay faith There exists Faith we can certainly agree even if what is having if a person has faith in something That doesn't prove that the thing they have faith in exists But the faith exists. Oh, yes, and we saw that in the case of the two scientists you were just talking about One of our dear friends, uh just died recently and that's martin gardener Ah, yes, who just passed away at the age of 95 with a remarkably productive full of honor and 20 minutes before he died his son told me he was telling jokes I want to go that way. I know not necessarily at 95. That's too early But yes, but martin never made a big secret out of the fact that he defined himself Theologically as a fideist and what he meant by that and he wrote explicitly about this Was that although he did not believe in organized religion? or any of the elaborate rituals attached to such he did believe in god of some sort he didn't Didn't define it. He didn't define it as being a guy with a beard who looked like you as many people imagine He didn't have he didn't anthropomorphize the idea, but he believed in god and he did this Specifically, I mean he said if I could prove it, it wouldn't be faith Well, how do you respond to that? Yeah, it's almost in a way. It's an unwinnable argument Yeah, yeah, but martin explained to me and this I granted him he said I don't have any evidence to support my belief at all Nothing that would stand up to To examination of The bearest kind he said you've got lots of evidence to support your point of view He said I don't have any evidence not one shred of it. He said I want to make that very clear. I said yes I'm wondering what he was going to follow that with he said But it just makes me feel a little bit better to suspect that there is something up ahead That's all I need folks. This man was a oh such a close threat Like my father. I assure you martin garnier. I worship his memory. I don't Uh more not at all. No, I worship his memory. He was a great great man I loved him dearly and that excuse was enough for me Well, that's a that that is the type of statement that we don't usually hear from you because I think most of the time when we hear james randy in a public forum talking about issues of belief systems that Don't stand up to scrutiny that cannot be proven. Yeah, uh, you tend to be adversarial Oh, yes, but if you have a good enough issues like being equipment or bellow off or gardener. I certainly accept it. I don't I don't make fun ever of the people that try to accept our challenge who or who expressed beliefs that are quite Contrary to what I expect reality insists on. I don't make fun of them at all Because in most cases they they believe they have good reason for their beliefs and that's all I can possibly ask of them Um They don't have to explain themselves. They don't have to prove anything to me at all and incidentally you you uh referred to me You did not refer to me by the term that so many people do which is debunker And I know why because you understand as I do that if I referred to myself as a debunker That would show it would infer very strongly that I am going into this confrontation to this examination Whatever investigation of Psyche claim saying this is not so and I'm going to prove that it's not so I don't know that it's not so It's possible. It is so I've got to be prepared for that eventuality that possibility again I doubt it very very strongly But I've got to be prepared for the possibility that it will be real And in that case I I can't assume That it is not real. I have to look into it and after that I can make my decision and and come to the conclusion that the evidence suggests There was a case that you were involved in it's got to be 20 years ago at least With a fellow who made a claim now. It wasn't really We can call it a psychic claim and as far as I know he never Brought up the issue of going for the prize when he initially made this claim you said Nonsense. He's got a gimmick. He's got some secret Way of doing this and then it turned out he really could Yep, and it's not only a great story, which I'll ask you to tell but it leads us to another question So tell the story first. I hope we're talking about the same guy This is wobbler record. Yes, it does. It doesn't be this is in the days before cd not too many Call that black things with grooves. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah This gentleman whose name escaped me at the moment. I apologize for that Was a an audio file in other words. He had very High-performing audio equipment and he was a connoisseur of classical music particularly and He came to my attention Because of some newspaper article. I know it was in time magazine Actually a couple of paragraphs in time magazine and I thought oh wow he said That simply by examining the face of an LP recording That's made with vinyl and such. These are Things you've made out of a number 12 But and had a needle to press it on me like this and round went the turntable and He said that by examining the surface of a classical recording That he could tell what the recording was of That's a that's quite remarkable. I very much doubt that and I ran it and raved briefly And uh, so I looked him up and I said, uh, I'd like to test your ability This is before the thousand dollar challenge or before the ten thousand dollar or the one million dollar challenge. So Forgive me, but it was well just just before that not too long before that And um, so he said oh, yes, sir So I went out to visit him. He lived in New Jersey somewhere or other And turned out to be a very charming gentleman and he Showed me his last record collection And I said well, uh, I will prepare Some samples and I will come back and we'll give you ten recordings as As tests So I went home and I looked into my own record collection And then something occurred to me because in between where the label is and the blank spot Where the needle will freeze at the end and go Pew pew as it turned around um I saw there was a number stamped there. Aha Now that's the number of the mold that's right to make the recording you see inscribed into the actual. Yes Embossed into it and I thought well if he had a An index someplace, you know, I'm sure these indexes that Exist google would have them today, of course Google knows everything as we all know and um, I thought okay So I'll cover that over and I put a sticker on top of that And covered over the label itself Made sure there were no impressions left the printing didn't was raised printing on the recording at that time Make sure it didn't show packed up ten of them label and I blinded myself to it By mixing them up. I knew what I had in there. I knew what the target pool was but I didn't know which one You were going to put it from yes, that's right. I just labeled them a A2 on the other side and b b2 on the other side And uh, mixed them up thoroughly went across to meet him and we sat down and uh, picked one of them put on the turntable and uh, oh no, I I let him examine it thoroughly And uh, he came up with a conclusion on it and we wrote that down now It was very hard. I knew what the target pool was you see I knew whether this was Stravinsky or whatever And so I had to maintain a complete poker face because if he was right, I was saying uh-oh There goes the whole the whole game. You see but uh, he would give me his opinion on the thing He went through all the recordings and He came up with one, but he looked at both sides of it. He said This is garbage This is a it's not classical and it appears to be to be conversation Yes, I'm pretty sure that's conversation I said well, we we do have some in here that are That are dummies that we've mixed in there wanted to see if you could tell but decide and my heart sank a little bit And uh, it turned out that that was Are you ready? So you want to be a magician Does anyone know who made that recording It was an LP recording from many many years ago. It was duke's turn. I believe you're right Yeah, thank you. Thank you max He knows everything that google doesn't know Yeah, so you want to be a magician and it was conversation on both sides Damn the guy was good. You see he didn't know what the recording was But he knew it wasn't classical music and it had to be classical music that was too special He looked at another one and this was divided up into into uh Songs or whatever and the sections and he looked at it and he said Oh, this is very noisy And now I don't think this is classical either No, this is noisy and I just have to give up on that one Turned out to be Alice Cooper I worked and you wouldn't know this but I worked for 90 days with Alice Cooper many years ago in the billion dollar baby store Chopping his head off every night with a will rock guillotine. It never worked. He was back the next night But um and also playing the part of the mad dentist I was not billed with the show just as part of the cast as j. Randy. That's all Uh, but I didn't want I I I wasn't content playing second fiddle or second banana. I should say second banana It's something yeah, yeah, but I didn't I didn't want to be identified with the show But um coop as we all know him, uh It's good. It's still a good friend of mine. He's turned it with jesus freak lately But he doesn't try that on me. He knows better than to do that But I went to a 60th birthday party But almost two years ago now and we had a ball and we relived old days But um, that was one of the recordings that he had there But the other ones He looked at one of them for example, and he said, oh, this is a telephone recording How can you tell a telephone recording from other ones and he said, oh, this is a columbia recording How do you know and he identified the music as well now what he was working on was the size of the movements And the number of movements in the symphony if it was the symphony on two sides of an lb you see and uh He was looking at the dynamics too and he He even said to me. He said look at this here. He said you could almost hear it You see the difference in the amplitude here and that's a columbia recording because columbia recording Spaced the grooves differently according to the amplitude. He gave me a whole technical primer on the thing He knew what he was doing and he won hands down except for the the two recordings one of which was But the two recordings he won in the sense that he identified them as not being classical music Then he was exactly right all the way through So if I'd been awarding the billion dollars At which I I wouldn't have done in that case because this is within the realm of possibility Now let let me jump in on that. Okay I would not call what this fellow's ability was. I would not define that as psychic ability, but I would certainly by by my Use of the word I would call it paranormal because Normal people can't do that And not even a lot of special people I don't know of anybody who can do that but this one guy You know there may be others but the point is this is such a rarefied skill and when it was described to you You were so convinced that it was a scam or or a fake of some sort Oh, yeah If he had if the price had been in in the works and if he had said I claim I can do this And you had said I I don't believe you this doesn't fit in my worldview I don't think you can look at an album and figure out what type of music is on it Why wouldn't he have walked away? Well not what type of music but the specific music. It was even better than just the type of music Yeah, the specific but under those circumstances Why wouldn't he have qualified for the prize? No, he would have he would have I wouldn't have put the the two dummies the in there the The spoilers into their palace cooper and duke stern. I have great respect for duke stern. Don't make any mistakes But he didn't match the quay criterion for the protocol But um, no, I I think you're absolutely right max I could have lost the challenge. I could very well have Because he was so very very knowledgeable and when he was able to give you reasons for it before we played the recording Now I knew that it was in the target pool again So I suspect he's probably right damn it, you know, but um, but I've heard a lost track of the gentleman since I remember talking to you about this fellow not that long afterwards And you told the story with great delight because it was such a remarkable. Oh, yeah punchline basically that he that he could do it When it happened Did it disturb you? Did it shake you up? Did it make you question if you'll forgive my phrasing? Did it make you question your faith? In what is within the range of human? Capability and what is beyond yes, it did it did I was I was so surprised by but I was also Thrilled this guy could do this wonderful stunt Which time magazine had written up and they were amazed by it and right this hole But I was I was quite excited. I I didn't feel threatened or anything like that. No, hey And another thing too, let's face it if I lost that million dollar challenge I'd probably also get a Nobel Prize Worth more than a million dollars, you see Yeah, no, I It would be a major discovery So I can't lose the challenge. I can lose the billion dollars But I can't lose the challenge in the long run because I would have discovered something and revealed it to the world That is really valuable. There's a four-circle esp and it can be used All right, you pardon me religious expression We understand you're being metaphorical. Yes Given that there is that tiny window of possibility as evidenced By this crazy story about this guy who could read Your immediate response when you heard about this was he's got a gimmick. He's got a technique And I'm sure because you're a clever guy and you think in these in these ways You immediately started thinking of methods. Oh, yeah, you I'm sure came up with a dozen different ways It could be done this brings me to a quote that I often think of when I'm Discussing or thinking about the modern skeptical movement and it's a quote from Chesere Lombroso who was Little over a century ago One of the founding fathers of criminal forensics. I know. Well, yeah, yeah When the beard was darker, yes, yes, yeah Uh But Chesere Lombroso once said And here I'm translating into English because I don't know the original Italian phrasing The existence of wigs does not disprove the existence of hair I recall this now. Yes, it's wonderful I'd like you to to respond to that in the following sense as a performer a clever thinker a clever inventor someone who Thinked seriously about these topics and when confronted with something that Doesn't seem plausible. You can come up with 5 10 50 methods for making a key bend or telling someone what they've written in private on a piece of paper or all of these other claims But To what extent do you keep in mind? The essence of that Lombroso quote. I'm not saying that you think specifically of that quote But in other words when you figure out a method To duplicate something that you've seen someone do or that you've heard someone claimed To be able to do Does the minute you come up with a solution do you then? I'm not going to say you then you're done because you're obviously not done You're too smart for that But does some part of you sort of relax and say, okay, it can be faked. So I feel More secure in doubting it. Oh, yeah As a matter of fact when I came upon the business of the The mold number on the inside edge of the recording it occurred to me right away. I think I got it So when I covered that over I was feeling a little bit pompous asked I must say But I gave him the recordings and he said oh He said the yes, he said that number that's a production number. He said that would give it away Wouldn't oh well how interesting he never thought of that But I had in my devious way you see but we think like magicians right We don't think like the ordinary citizens out there And it's not a better way of thinking necessarily. It's a different way. No, but it's a different way And it has value. Oh, yes, which leads me to something you said just about a year ago at the amazing meeting which is the annual event in las vegas that Is built around the amazing randy and I wasn't there last year, but I saw thanks dj a a recording a video recording of a panel discussion On which you were you were involved and you made a really interesting Comment that builds on an earlier comment you among others, but probably you're the most Uh well-known voice to say that scientists who are exploring things that are apparently impossible Should invite magicians to help them because magicians will look at these things and think of things That a scientist will miss. That's right. Yes, but you appended that In the conversation that I saw on tape By saying that sometimes a magician coming in with an explanation can cause Problems rather than solve them Do you remember? I'm trying not to say too much. I'll let you talk about it. But if I'm being too obscure. Tell me You're far too obscure man. All right Your point was this that sometimes for example when ori geller first surfaced There were several magicians who were asked by scientists to come in and watch what ori geller did And they said, huh, we are fooled. We don't know. We don't see any methods here. We as magicians Validate that this is a this it seems to be real and and that actually caused problems because sometimes a magician in the laboratory Isn't helping things by by coming on as if I have all the answers you poor scientist You don't have any trust me and if I can't see a solution then it must be what it purports to be And I thought there was an interesting adjustment on the original statement of the value of magicians in the laboratory Oh, yes, and not only that I always specified it's not any magician who had prepared to do this now, certainly you I believe myself and many many people in this room, of course would be Sufficiently talented sufficiently knowledgeable and sufficiently Perceptive to be able to solve these things Not but not everyone the average fellow who does and I'm not demeaning the Children's birthday party magician They have a function and they and I have seen some that are just so constantly Clever at it. They know kids and they know how to please them and to avoid the cupcakes as they come Um, but uh, no, but there's a man who did play the magic clown. Oh, yeah Hi boys and girls. I'm the magic clown What do I do? What did I say just say? I don't know, but you've always said the channeling was a fake. That's very true Yeah, oh my goodness. I give up. I give up. I surrender. Here's a million Um, yeah, no that that's very true. Uh magicians that will know a good deal about magic Don't necessarily know the twists and turns and the people that who we will not name that were called in By the scientists. Oh other magicians were called in who knew that like ray hyman, for example You the solution right away and told them they ignored it. They didn't want to hear that And several other people that that are knowledgeable scientists who are knowledgeable about conjuring Tricks and methods and everything told them exactly what was happening and they just said no, no, no, that's not true It's not true. They only took the answers that they preferred to take and by the way, I I just figured out what What the story was Yes, yes, uh john billoff now the The uh, parapsychological association. Yeah, you'll love this. Uh the parapsychological association said that That in uh as a result of project alpha, which was reported in time magazine and On the nvc on the today show and what now with brian gumbel That's a long time ago, as you know, um that that it would be the the uh I think they said something to the effect that it would it would be well to call in a magician When and if uh, it was possible that deception would be used that with which scientists wouldn't wouldn't be familiar And uh, I thought oh, that's wonderful. Thank you very much. But then they went on to say that we would suggest only members of the international brother to magicians the society of our arch magicians uh or One I think it was a magician's guilt at that time. Okay, I'm still wrong. Yeah was still wrong I wasn't a member of any of those three at that time and they knew damn well. I wasn't so in other words except for james randy Well, I have to at least give them credit for something. Well, I at that time was a member of the magic circle as I am now with gold star yet Mimc so there I'm not wearing my medal. I it's too heavy for my chest But um, I promptly joined all three organizations, of course In order to get around that and but john beloff Did call me in now what he did was he notified me? Uh by telephone in those days and he said we have a young fellow here Who is causing spoons and cutter and whatnot to bend a la orie galler? And um, he insists that he'd be all alone in the laboratory That with the lights down low and such and that he has to Restore and relax for a good 20 minutes before it happens and then he calls us When the spoons are bent and indeed when we enter the laboratory again, there they are they're bent It just didn't offer me a great intellectual challenge I thought I I think even members of the ibm and s a m could have handled that Yes, he could We're in trouble now and you know, I'm the one who says yes. Yeah, but they'll associate me with you So I had to back out now. Goodbye. Um, yes now John beloff said that That this was the situation and he asked me said what should I do? And I said, well, you have video cameras there, don't you and he said, oh, yes, but they must be turned off He insisted that they he can't be observed and because they don't work when they're being observed He's absolutely right on that. They don't work when they're being observed And I said but john what you could do is just unscrew the little red light there Take out the bowl Put it back in again And he's used to seeing that the tally light such as on that camera there on this camera over here That means that the camera is actually functioning He's used to seeing that and when he doesn't see that red light He'll probably assume that they're they're not and I said get a power cord and coil it up and lay it right beside the camera Well, john did that but much against his will he said oh that that would be deception And I said yes, but wait a minute john You're you're asking for a way around this so that you can find out whether or not the gentleman is really doing it By psychic means or not and he said well Yes, but I have a hard time with that ethically and I said well you do what you have to do Well, he called me a couple of weeks later. He said they called him red-handed the red-handed red light to get it Uh, he said that the minute that they left the laboratory closed the barn barn but always twisted them around Did the whole thing and then went laid down with the the blindfold over his eyes again And then he called them. I think it's happened and they came in and mow it had happened Now, um It turned out I didn't know it at the time I was claiming this is a major victory because I had helped these people Turned out that this is a young magician who was trying to do a project alpha He was trying to do the same thing that we had done And then he would say to them ha ha fooled you and the whole business But he never got around to that point because they just tossed them out of the lab Well, because they did what the previous Recipients of the project alpha technique they do. Yeah, they called you. Yeah, exactly. Yes But that was the only group that oh another one them was professor Phillips Phillips, yes who was going off to China Phillips was the guy at Washington University who ran the project alpha thing was totally taken in by them And by the way, I must add In summary of that We had agreed the alpha kids of myself had a firm agreement at the very beginning That if they were ever asked when they were in the laboratory, I was that a trick They were to immediately say without hesitation. Yes, it was a trick and we were sent here by james randy and that explained the whole thing And they were almost asked because I would write letters To philips at the lab after they had described beyond the phone what they had done and how they'd gotten away with murder It was wonderful. I mean I again we could do a whole evening On the tricks that they used and it's going to come up in my book a magician of the laboratory Which I'm sure you'll all rush off and buy copies of it immediately, of course And the next story is going to be completely told there But uh, we had a made the additional agreement that if the Scientists involved ever announced that they were about to publish We would stop it right there and we would go to them and say you've been fooled Here's how you've been fooled and give them a complete Confession of the whole thing and I would add to that and I would go all the way to st. Louis, Missouri, and I would confess the whole thing to them and go into detail But what happened was remember the name marcello tuti. I knew marcello quite well. Okay, marcello tuti was A fence sitter. He never wanted to say that there wasn't Now his family was in show business In the circus by the fact and they knew magic and they and he knew thoroughly Well how galler was doing his sort of thing But he decided that he would sit on the fence and not say anything about it And he just didn't know when I'm not sure, you know, maybe and maybe not But that I never quite forgave marcello for but he's now someplace else But that's called deceased. I believe yes, uh, and so he can't be offended by this I hope And um, I uh, I rather resented that but marcello Sat in on a on a group that was at the paranormal conference that I attended One of them that I attended when um, phillips was going to make an address on the final day and uh He listened in on a on a conversation from around the corner and he heard me telling a reporter about this sort of thing And uh, I knew very well. He was there. I could see his shadow. He didn't see himself very well There was a black marble the Color there and I could see his reflection in it. It makes sense because marcello's son carlo Actually tours the world with a shadow graph show. Oh, I didn't know that. Yeah. Oh really? Oh, so a family tradition Go ahead add that to the file Anyway, I knew that he was listening in and I used that as my method for tipping them off Because I felt sure that if I called in medieval conference said guys you were fooled and this is how you were fooled And here are the two kids and they said yes, this is what we did they'd say. Oh, yeah, sure Come on now. You're saying that but we proved it But I let marcello do it That was my subtle way because they trusted marcello They wouldn't trust me or they wouldn't trust the kids at that point You see so marcello that tipped them off And they found out the day before their paper came came out and they were going to distribute copies They had to go and reprint it and all they did was add modifiers in like apparently and possibly And ostensibly and a few things like that they were all through and all through the paper So they saved their their collective ass. Are you finding the question? But that's the only one that serves But that's the way we did it. We we revealed it before they were actually able to go out and Take the disclaim of the the parapsychological association I have to jump in for a second to say about marcello because he was a good friend I didn't think of marcello as A fence sitter or a fence straggler. I thought of him as a fence balancer Okay, it was a very deliberate stance. Yeah, you can disagree with the stance, but it was deliberate It wasn't because he was trying to Cover all bases. It was because he was interested in all The size of the discussion Yeah, yeah, okay. I appreciate that max. Thank you I'm not saying that you should have any greater respect or affection for him than you did two minutes ago I just wanted to put that in there because I thought he was a great guy. He was the editor of skeptical inquiries He was the original editor when sci-com first started And he had to be put away because I'll put away taken off the out of the position Pardon me Take it out of that position because he insisted that That the skeptical inquire would represent both sides of the situation The parapsychologists never gave us a chance to say anything about these things. They just kept us out of it all together We never got any any publication space or anything and I said no, that's not going to happen And incidentally, I left psychop the committee for scientific investigation claims of the paranormal because of the very civil difference of opinion so to speak and Paul Kurtz a dear friend I swear a dear friend and a very reputable gentleman and a and a good scientist and such We've now made up. I was going to say kissed and made up but paul would object to that And uh, and it would be true to I I didn't kiss just a little hug But and paul kurtz and I have made up since He came to me after galler threatened lawsuit against me and against psychop For the article the articles that we had published and such And the criticism that we made of him now galler has sued people all over the world He sued me many times never won a nickel from me But he cost me a lot of money. He cost me most of the macarthur prize as a matter of fact, which was $272,000 Over that five-year period he cost me most of that simply from legal fees that I had to pay No one else was paying my legal fees That was quite quite arduous for me a very difficult for me to beat though at that expense, but um Marcello, uh, well in In doing this sort of thing, uh I didn't I didn't ever dislike him. I always liked marcello But then paul kurtz when he came to me and said we've got to agree Because of this whole thing. We've got to agree Not to ever mention galler again And I looked him straight in the eye and I said paul We were organized to come out against people like this and tell the truth about them That's what our sole purpose is. He said well, it's getting too expensive He's going to sue us and it'll cost us a lot of money. I simply took my pin out I stuck it in the table and I walked out and never went back I have since back with the committee for scientific investigation claims of parole Normal down on the CSI the committee for scientific inquiry I'm back with them and we're all lovey-dovey again and stuff like that. So I'm happy to be back. I'm happy to be back We are We're running long and and yet we could continue this for a long time to come Except we have an audience of people who are sitting on what I know to be less than comfortable chairs How are we doing these are fine? I we got a little time for a little more Because there's one more segment I'd like to toss out. Uh-oh I'd like you to tell a story that is one of your most celebrated accomplishments. And then I want I have a follow-up question There was Some years ago a fellow named peter pop off And I hear by the reaction that many people know know where we're going with this Peter pop off was a faith healer Uh No, he said he was a faith. Okay I think the same invisible quotes that you were using earlier. Okay, uh, but Peter pop off claimed Julia faith healer and claimed that he was receiving messages from a supernatural source Uh The source Was discovered to be different. Thanks to your efforts somewhat different. So why don't you Give us a quick rundown of of the peter pop off story We don't have the videotape. Unfortunately. We're not in a position to show it at this time. No, right? Okay, but Take your word for it. Yeah I was um alerted. I would happen to be in california And I was alerted to the fact that in san francisco. I was alerted to the fact that this fellow peter pop off Was preaching locally to a huge stadium full of people And uh that he was claiming that he could heal them By gesturing at them and bringing the holy spirit and whatnot And uh that he knew their names for some strange reason even sometimes gave them their address And I thought well this sounds like mentalism to me in some kind And uh, I can teach you this if you want I was I was watching the carson show. I've been oh, okay. You're already ahead of me that okay And uh, so I I went in there and saw it and I was indeed quite puzzled I thought uh, wow He was able to call them by their first and sometimes their last name and uh, and then give addresses When he when he felt like it apparently and he knew what their affliction was too. Wow I said well, there's got to be some way that he's found out about this Went back to second night, but this time I brought steve shaw banner check along with me And this before he was banner check and He festooned himself with all kinds of identity cards around his neck and such And guards when they see somebody like that coming they say go go go go. They don't want to read all this stuff and that's fine for us and So I sent steve to sort of follow pop off around And he did he came back after the first 10 minutes and he said He's wearing a hearing aid in his left ear Now this was a guy that was supposed to be healing the death And I thought that rather strange so So I and and steve found found that to be very pardon me banner check banner check found that to be a little strange too And uh, so we did a bit of research. I uh, I had a good friend there, um alec jason Who was a private investigator Very good at what he did And still very active in the field and I spoke to him and he said oh, yeah, this is this is my forte. I can do this I'm emotionally overcome as you can see and um He went in festooned with all kinds of identification and dressed in working clothes with a coil of wire around his waist And a walkman plugged into his ear apparently That walkman was going but that not what was plugged into his ear He had a listening device a uh field strength meter that scanned the whole radio frequency band And picked up all different transmitters that would be in use in the area starting with low frequencies working all the way up and uh At a certain and he had the means to record down if he pressed the button And uh, he came to us with a big smile on his face after half an hour of this And he said oh boy, we got him by the short hair and um He said yeah, this is it's going to be quite something So um, I listened to what he what he was doing now As I say the the system scanned and it would stop at a certain place At the first thing he heard when it reached this frequency of 31.1 70 megahertz I think it was something like that. Uh, he heard uh, mrs. Popov saying Hello, pity. Can you hear me? I hope so if you can't hear me you're in deep shit I said yeah, that's the kind of talk I want to hear and um so we uh I I got this recording and we found out that he was being cued by his wife From backstage and he had a hearing aid stuck in his ear Uh with no wire leading down from it because it was fed by induction from a coil around his neck underneath the sherry And some metalists may even use dastardly means like this for communication. I doubt it very much, but it's quite possible I think Uh within the field of possibility. Let's put it that way and um, so he uh, was doing it by this means and so I I made recordings of this and that I took him on a cassette to fred de cordiva who's johnny karson's producer at the time now both deceased And um, I said fred you got to listen to this And uh, he said oh, yeah, I've heard of this guy and he listened to it and he said damn We'll put that on tonight. He said and he turned to his assistant. He said the the two Uh teeny bopper actresses and everything bump them tell them they'll go on next week or something But we gotta drop this in place and he reached for the phone. I said wait. Wait. Are you going to tell john? He said oh, yeah, I said no no don't tell john because Think of the expression on his face And fred looked at me. He said john doesn't like surprises. He wants to know what's going to happen I said, yeah, but just think the expression on his face when he hears this other voice coming through in the Because what we were planning to do and what we did was we played The the tape as it was seen by the audience and then we played it again with mrs. Popov's voice Superimposed over it. You see that's the part that the audience wasn't hearing well, uh The court of a look to the desk for a minute. He looked up at me. He said But it's on your head. This may be the end of you And I said I'll take a chance and he said okay So we did it that night And uh, the reaction was just stupendous now I'll let you in on a bit of a secret which I let some of my My audience is in although I I usually use this in my lecture my public lecture at the universities and colleges and whatnot around the world again and um I will let you in on something like I sometimes let them in on but not all that frequently Uh, there's an edit in the tape now. They recorded that three hours before it actually got broadcasted the four different time zones And in theory it was live to tape which means their their rule was they didn't edit out anything Yeah, but they did on this evening. They did on this particular one For a good reason as you'll see um Now johnny was not informed and he met me before he'd always meet me before the show come to the dressing room We'd we'd chat about a few things and he said this is a mystery thing you're doing tonight And I said yeah, but you'll get a big kick out of it john you I want to see the expression on your face And he was not ready for through this quite because what they showed was the the tape as audience at home would see it And then it it came back to me to johnny and and and we sitting at the desk and uh I said now Now we'll see it again, but we'll see it with the additional Recording in here of what pop-off is hearing through a hearing aid in his ear And johnny just signaled like this and they went to the tape Now what actually happened in the recording where the the taping of the show of that particular night was Johnny got to the point where we're about to do this and He played the tape Johnny looked and he heard her saying p.d. This is your wife and the whole thing and he said oh, shit And then he grabbed his mouth and he went Like this to the audience to shush them up And of course they were hard to shush up, but they were on separate mic system You see so it could be edited out later Although johnny's voice did come through and we had to edit that whole section out Or they had to they took care of that But that's a little story that I sometimes share with my audience And so when you see the tape again, then you will it's on youtube and you'll you'll see it i'm sure When you see johnny come out of the Of the of the tape and he's doing this with his pen now When john did this with his pen at the desk that meant he was very disturbed I knew him well for so many many years and I did so many of the programs that when he was doing this He was disturbed and he started to do that with his big yellow pencil that he always had in his hand or in his pocket at least and He was disturbed and he said to the in front of the audience. He said well, you know, that's that's somewhat Disturbing when you see it and the audience tittered a bit there. They couldn't take that out. It would be too difficult to do Uh, they sort of tittered a bit because they had heard him say oh This kind of thing and then shushed them down So when you see that tape you'll see the spot where you know the edits made you'll get an additional kicker I think I'll appreciate that Anyway, it was a great victory. Thank you. Thank you so much now Here's the question that I need to follow up with The pop-off exposure with this extraordinary I mean, it was just so clear He was cheating. Yeah, there's the evidence This was back before the proliferation of cable when the Carson show had Tens of millions of viewers and everybody talked about it the next day and indeed they did. Oh, yeah This was water cooler conversation for weeks and pop-off was pushed off the map as far as the world of So-called faith healing. Yeah however In the time since then slowly but surely he has returned and although I I doubt most people in this audience Are aware of him. He is now making lots and lots of money doing The same nonsense that he was doing before you exposed him you you You held him up Slowed down a bit of a bit of a bump. He had a few a few years where he was kind of obliged to lay low, but he's returned and he's now still doing this this evil stuff Does this make you crazy does this drive you nuts that you had this guy? You couldn't have done better as far as as far as making the point and yet For whatever reason the public's desire to believe the the the sneakiness of of this particular guy and knowing how to play his market, whatever he managed to survive and now is prospering despite your magnificent success in exposing it well max you use the phrase The public's desire to believe I don't use that expression. I say the public's need to believe they really have a very strong need to believe in something supernatural and if someone like pop-up comes along And apparently presents it to them They grab it they grab it and they believe it and they don't doubt it at all I had many people after the exposure Uh, they got in touch with me and this is in the days before email and such and They they got in touch with me By phone usually and someone that even came around to the foundation Almost to a person. They said the same thing. I want to thank you very much. Mr. Randy Now I know that peter pop-up is a total fraud and a fake. So now I'm giving my money to reverend so-and-so to some other Healer on television and oh yes, because I know that she's the the real thing You know because she never did anything like that They they didn't know that but that's that's what the result was now if I were in your position Hearing that after all this work and succeeding in in revealing this to the world I would be filled with despair And if there's one word I would never attach To you over the many years. I've known you I've seen you in a whole variety of emotional states But despair isn't one of them you still have have I cut on much smart enough to have despair Okay But what what is it that in the face of this? Makes you feel it's worth Pushing because this is not just a casual thing. This is what you've devoted your life to now What keeps you going max? I will send you I'll make a note to do it. I really will do it I'll send you a few of the bits of emails that I get every week now. I get 120 to 140 emails every day Many of them can be answered with the stock answers. Thank you very much for your kind comments I hope that you'll stay tuned and etc but I have to answer a great number of them and it takes a good portion of my day to do that But they drop into my email and they come in the mail the form of written letters I have two on my desk back in fort lauderdale right now from people who usually start out saying I really hated your guts mr. Randy or something to that effect When I read this book flim plan and you know, I got about two-thirds of the way through and then suddenly it occurred to me Damn, he's right because they checked up on these things and they they've read other books by me and They often come to this conclusion I even a young lawyer show up at the door with a briefcase and a tattered copy. Oh, I love tattered copies of flim plan I when they're really well used and well well thumbed and with margins Comments and such. I'd love to see those because people really read the book and He stopped and he said, you know, mr. Andy said, uh, I I changed my my major. I wanted to be a psychologist. In fact, I wanted to be a A parapsychologist and he said and I read flim plan and I I really hated it and then I checked up and I found Damn, I think you're right. And they showed he showed me this tattered copy I immediately got him a new copy and Autographed it to him and gave it to him. I have that tattered copy It's a wonderful thing to have with the comments and This man is a fool kind of thing not referring to the guy in the text, but none of me author yes, yes And uh, no nonsense and everything scribbled across the page He was very angry about the whole thing. But I saved someone. Well, he's now a lawyer, so that may be even worse I'm not too sure But no, it is uh, it is that's what that's what makes it rewarding is the mail that I get from people saying You made a big you made a difference in their lives Yep Well, I think I can speak for this assembled group But there are very presence and numbers Indicate it's true that you have made a difference In a lot of lives and the people here appreciate that Well, uh, yeah, I've got to have a layman to do it with Listen, I tell you what I tell you what This is the longest interview we have ever done here and we didn't even scratch the surface I would like to put randy on the spot by saying We're gonna do part two Oh, okay Tomorrow we know we I will be in touch with dj. We will figure out when your schedule will allow We will do a second part where we can pick up on all the many stories and questions We didn't get to this time and this time for part two We'll have some books. Oh, great. Okay. Is it a deal? Okay, thank you very much, folks Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Okay. I think I can go home now