 When thinking about something like an uprising or even opposing establishment power, one obvious problem that occurs to me, and it's something that you have stalled upon and explained even in this conversation, is the obvious fissures that exist among what would once have been thought of as the left. Notably, in the emergence of the SJW social justice movement and how abstracted and often opposed they are from the traditional working class or blue collar support of left wing movements who I think it's safe to say now feel wholly estranged from the parties that were at least superficially augmented to serve them. I was interested that you said earlier that the Democratic party of America never really had that agenda and that the labor movement in this country was corrupted as early as the 1920s because popular myth is that the 1940s was a great moment for the Labor Party with the National Health Service and that it wasn't too much later under Blair and under Clinton in the United States that the left wing that the left lost its mojo became castrated and became a kind of a, as you say, an imitation of Republican or conservative parties respectively. Do you see there being the possibility of how would you even just to result, how would you do you think it's possible to resolve the fissure that exists between sort of the more metropolitan social justice identity politics oriented members of progressivism and the now left behind working class blue collar people that now feel sort of not only resentful towards establishment power but perhaps even more resentful to these kind of movements that make them feel culturally alienated and often demonize working class people as one of their dominant motifs. The way to ask me that question three years ago I would be a lot more optimistic than I am today because I saw three years ago this exactly what you described was happening in the Labor Party under Corbyn. There was an emergent coalition between urbanite more liberal left wingers with people in the north of England who were far more traditional blue collar workers or former blue collar workers that worried about, you know, the reproduction of their material life, a lot more than they worried about identity. But look at the way in which Corbyn was brought down through the weaponization of identity politics through rather sordid campaign of disinformation and distortion, the whole business about Corbyn being Corbyn being an anti-semite or Sanders being a misogynist, which is what was started within the Democratic Party to find ways of creating discontent within the progressive supporting them. And they did it so successfully. So the answer to your question is that, yes, it can be done, but it is very difficult. And until and unless younger, more liberal, more urbanite and more upwardly mobile leftists can start paying their dues and be more respectful to those who have been held behind and left behind in the Rust Belt areas or in, you know, the Clactons on Sea areas and the Bournemouths areas of the world. Unless we have a genuine sympathy of one another, it can't work. What really, I mean, you know, I campaigned against Brexit, as you probably remember. And yet the contempt within with which radical left wing good people, you know, of my friends, you know, feminists, progressives, members of the, you know, LBGT community and so on, the way who were on the pro-remain side, the way with which they treated contemptuously, you know, people in Yorkshire who had voted for Brexit, that really upset me. And, you know, I'm all for, for instance, bringing down the symbols of institutionalized racism, whether it is changing the name of Yale University or bringing down a statue in Bristol. I don't have a problem with that. I don't mind it. But what we must understand is that when somebody is about to lose their job in a factory or they've lost it, it really offers them no sacrament, it offers them no satisfaction to hear that Yale University now is called something else. It's interesting how that example cuts to the heart of the issue of symbolic cultural change versus meaningful economic change. And that in a sense it ossifies that estrangement between working in very common traditional labor voters, you know, the Labour Party, Labour is a synonym for work, for industrialized people working in industrialized jobs, people who 50, 60 years ago were told that there is such a thing as Britain, that Britain is separate and it is worth laying down your life for the reality of Britain and now being invited to casually discard this identity that was offered them as a sort of palliative for personal sacrifice. My sense is that when you give the example of a democratic or corporate organisation such as you worked in in Seattle, I wonder how that maps onto communities. I wonder too, Yanis, about the plausibility and with some optimism and if I may be clear, excitement, the idea of standing on a political platform that you have begun to outline and clearly you elaborate on in your novel of where you can list a manifesto that includes the ending of share markets, the abolition of banks, the re-empowerment of communities, work-based and craft-based economies, less time working, more time for families that in a sense a correlative of that would be the end of globalization. The veins of globalization are the global financial markets and if those are cut off, then you address simultaneously two problems, the rise of sort of phatic retro nationalism and the kind of the insidious onslaught of corporate globalization. So is that something that you propose, is that possible and would you have to organise that from the offset on an international level due to the scale of the project? Absolutely, absolutely and the distinction I draw is between internationalism and globalization. We need internationalism to kill off globalization. Globalization for me, the way I understand it, is the complete liberation of capital, of money, to move unimpededly around the globe at the touch of the button. The liberation of commodities to cross the US-Mexican border, that is now has been for a long time an impenetrable wall for human beings. So human beings, it's quite remarkable, if you go to the US-Mexico border fence, you see thousands of people from Latin America in the shadow of that wall waiting for an opportunity to jump it and enter the United States in search of work when, through the various openings, whole train loads and truck loads of commodities move completely effortlessly from one side of the border to the other. So I would like a world in which there are restrictions in capital movements and no restrictions on human beings moving around. That for me is the end of globalization at the beginning of internationalism. I personally consider borders to be a scar on the face of the earth and this is the price we have to pay, these borders that are getting taller, more electrified and more impenetrable, the more capital and commodities are free to move around. So we need international solidarity, we need an international movement. Some of us are putting together what we call the Progressive International on the 18th of September, we have an inaugural meeting and that includes my friend Noam Chomsky, Naomi Klein, Catherine Jakobs-Dottir, the Prime Minister of Iceland, the Bernie Sanders team are part of that. We have people from around Nigeria, from Japan, and so on. Because we need to start moving along those lines.