 Welcome to Global Connections. I'm your host, Carlos Juarez, and it's great to welcome you here. We've got a special show today where we're going to be exploring the topic of dysfunctional democracy, American style. And what do we mean by that? Well, the US political system, of course, it's been in our news quite a bit lately with the recent elections. It's still ongoing. But more particularly, we're going to get some insights from two guests that I have joining me today. They're young leaders who come to us from Mexico, and actually that's where I'm joining you as well. Here on Global Connections, we bring informed perspective insights from all over the world. And so joining me today, I'm delighted to welcome two college students who are in Mexico. One of them first, Larissa Rosales, and the other is Mireya Rosado. And so let me turn to both of you and first welcome you. I'm very happy that you can join us here on Global Connections. And I want to briefly ask if each of you can just introduce yourselves, tell us your name, where you're from in Mexico, and what is it you're studying there? So Larissa, please welcome to Global Connections. Yeah, thank you very much. Thank you for the invitation. It's an honor to be here with you. And yes, my name is Larissa Rosales. I am an undergraduate student. I study international relations here in Puebla at the Universidad de las Américas Puebla. Excellent. Thank you. And Mireya, please welcome to the show as well. Thank you for joining us. Thank you for the invitation also. I'm also very honored to be here. I also study international relations in the Universidad de las Américas Puebla, but I am from Merida, Yucatan. Well, fantastic. So basically two young leaders who, you know, you are both students of international relations, a social science that looks at understanding different aspects of the world of, you know, even important relations that Mexico has with its neighbor to the north of the United States. But of course, like all of the world and like all of the country in the US, we've been observing these recent weeks, the culmination of the presidential election, well, the bigger election, let's say. And it's called a lot of attention to the political system. It's in crisis, you know, how is it functioning, but especially for many observers, it just looks chaotic. And so maybe before we look into the inner details, I wanted to ask if you can offer some initial reflections on what this recent presidential election was like for you as an international college student. What did it seem like? What did you take away? What did you find interesting or confusing about it? So we can start with the idea of perhaps Larissa, what are some first thoughts on just what we just finished watching in the US? Yes, of course. Well, for me, it was really interesting to see that what we can see as the best democracy in the world does have problems in the most basic aspect of a democracy that it's an election, right? And so we have so many takeaways about all this debate of if the popular vote is or not in the constitution, which is not. And so like all this debate about what would happen if Trump won, if Trump didn't won, like, would the states acknowledge all the electoral points to the popular vote, and will they decide on their own, like what would happen next? And also it was really interesting to see how a president for the first time was not conceding, and up to date, like, even though he has already allowed certain processes of them to give power to Biden, like they are already taking place, he hasn't conceded yet, like in, like a seat should have been. It's interesting to see that what happens here in Mexico that we have a history of electoral fraud that of course that it's not a reality in the United States, but something that happens here and it happens in some other democracies that are not as good as that of the United States. It's interesting to know that it happens in the United States as well. I've touched on several things there, of course, first of all, we want to make clear and I think you touched on this with the US, at least in the modern recent past does not have a history of massive electoral fraud it just has not been. And even this election now we're seeing now that the outcome is making clear that most of these states are confirming, you know, a pretty clean election that is what I'm getting at here is the president as you said, continues to deny, you know the outcome and a ledge without a lot of evidence, all these claims will eventually that'll putter out but maybe more to the point you touched on the idea of good democracies and I thought I was a curious way of putting it because certainly the US has long been a model of a democratic system one of the longest continually existing. It's been a system that many parts of the world have looked at as as you know here's how it works now. So having said that, obviously the US has some shortcomings and challenges here and there. We'll try to talk to some of those when we talk about a dysfunctional market what do we mean, but first media let me just ask you maybe give us some initial impressions we just saw this recent election. What were some of your takeaways what did you go ahead. Like, like Larissa said. So this election and also the past election has thought of a lot all around the world about how the system that the political system of the United States work. I think that most people around the world. Don't know what a complicated political system and more specifically, electoral system does the United States have. And it was very funny to notice that, especially in these elections, everybody was like, trying to find out trying to understand how the electoral system of the United States work. And maybe even I might say that maybe even some people in the United States are starting to question how the how the system works. Since the past election, because it's like, it's not been a lot of times since a president has won. Well, last time the president won without the popular vote and this time there was a fear that the president could win without also the popular vote. So, there have been a lot of questioning about this electoral system and it has been seen nowadays and this was something that is not only inside the United States but also has been all around the world in another class we were discussing that maybe we should all be able to vote in the election of the United States because we find it very interesting and we are constantly informing more than ever in this election. Yes, and it's an interesting you mentioned that I mean the United States of course is such an important power as a global power, you know the largest economy that has a tremendous impact. You know, you say that rather somewhat as a joke, you know that maybe you know you should be able to vote and indeed the fact is the choices and the policies that the US has directly affect Mexico, whether it's trade or migration, etc. The factor your first thought though is that obviously the world not just the world but even the United States is looking every four years when we have the US elections. Many people are surprised to learn that it is an indirect election of the president it's been that way always but normally when you vote you assume you just count the ballots and the one with the most wins well as we are seeing here it plays out in a very different but let me turn us to shift a little bit and talk about this idea of a dysfunctional democracy and you know both of you actually as students of mine in a class we've recently been looking at some some different arguments that are out there and one book has recently published by a distinguished Mexican scholar, a former foreign minister Jorge Castañeda, and he has an interesting book that is called America through foreign eyes, where he kind of looks at the image of the US from abroad. He sees it as well as somebody who has long been living and connected to the US professor at New York University but a former foreign minister, and in this book he describes a little bit this idea of the US political system as being dysfunctional. And I wonder if maybe picking up on that maybe we can, what are some of the key points that he touches on and how can we reflect on it, and perhaps starting with you let me say I think the idea that we've explored talking before was how the system in the US it's been around so long but in it was created in a different time a different era, a different society. And here we are today, 2020, the US is still the same system, but it's a different place right so I wonder if you can building on that. Maybe talk a little bit about this idea of the dysfunctional nature of the American political system. Well, one of the points that is touched in this book about the idea of dysfunctional democracy in the United States refers to that the Judas said that at the beginning, more than 150 years ago, the electoral system like to to put it as an example was designed in fact to exclude because it was designed to exclude slaves to exclude women, etc, and just to focus on the genius society that was white men right like and men, white men and enrichment like in a social status like a high social status. So right now that the United States has a, like demographics are changing. It is excluding that new people, of course that white people are still the majority, but there are other important minorities like Hispanic people, like women like black people, etc, and they are being excluded by a system that was created for an homogeneous society. And so in that sense, the political system and the people who are empowered are trying to keep that system on the genius by techniques like gerrymandering and by making it more difficult for certain people to vote, like to make the procedure more complex, etc, in order to keep the balance in a system that it was not made to include a diversity and a plurality of people. Yeah. No, it's a very fair point and I mean in a nutshell, it's that the system was set up at a different time, maybe with a different society and reality. And yet over time, the country has changed and here we have today this complex large multiracial multi I think, remarkably on the one hand the system has continued and I think there's something to be said about that it's very resilient it has, it has not changed. Maybe it's not delivering in the same way that it was intended. You mentioned a few different things like the concept of gerrymandering a very political process where, you know, those in power decide how the districts are going to be decided and that has, you know, direct implications for who gets elected. The other is the idea of voter suppression that's a very hot topic these days, and it was there from the beginning in the sense that the founders of the US political system. They did not envision a direct democracy where everybody would vote everybody would have equal rights and, you know, as you mentioned it's basically, you know the dominant elite they were largely whites and they had to be property owners and so they were, you know, a small privileged elite. So, nevertheless, the system has evolved and here we are today, lots of challenges, different pressures different groups. And maybe many who feel that the system is not working for them. Maybe a media if I can ask you any thoughts on, again, this idea of either the nature of American society or how the system has not evolved or is it in crisis now. What do you think media. So, I think that many of the things that are mentioned on that book are very interesting and make us like reflect on other like more deep subjects, such as I was thinking about the term of institutions. So, we've have always seen the United States as a very institutionalized political system. So that is something that we as Latin Americans admire very much, and it's something that is, well, yeah, it's very is, it's a very good thing about the political system of the United States that recipients that you mentioned, because well that has provided a certain stability for like 150 years, a lot of time, and it has worked very well. But the thing is that times change, and the priorities change. Also, like the concept of democracy has also changed. So, the United States was a very functional democracy when it started to be a democracy. So, that that system was meant to be to work for that to, to make sure that that kind of democracy that was considered at that time the kind of democracy that that provided that the people who should have the right to vote, were educated and had money, had, like, opportunities, and, well, in some of the groups that I would say that are not, or are not right now they are not minorities, but I like to call I heard like this this concept and I like to call them that way, like because there are no longer a minority. So, those people were not were could not like vote or cannot express themselves right, and that kind of democracy at that time, but now they can and they should. And the system that is like very resilient and that's a good thing is being like an obstacle for them. I know a very good way to put it and I think you touch on the idea that this concept of democracy, democracy, obviously it has evolved and changed. And today we expect and demand different rights than even what our grandparents might have done. And certainly, what the founding fathers now real quick point of clarification I think you made a reference to 150 years. It's actually been 240 years so from the, you know, 1780s, late 1700s. And so it is a system that has been remarkable and not changing, but often it can be criticized as that same reality as it hasn't become modern. It hasn't adapted to, if you look at other political systems of modern democracies, let's say the examples of Germany and Japan. They have very modern constitutions that guarantee, you know, lots of detail rights and actually even the Mexican Constitution I will tell you is a lot more detailed in terms of what it says now how much it can be implemented or carried out is another question but by contrast the American Constitution the US Constitution is somewhat limited and instead it gets interpreted continually. Let me turn to shift to another thing because one of the challenges of the American political system, especially when you look at it from the outside is the power of this two party system, the two political party so in the end, if you want to run for office if you want to choose a president, you have two options, and most of the world we often see differences. Yes, there are many places that have a cluster of, you know, a right of center and a left of center. I wonder from your perspective, and maybe turning to you that is, what do you see in the two party system is it healthy is it is it stable or is it maybe part of the problem that makes it dysfunctional. And maybe again from your understanding of political party systems in other countries or just how you see it compared to what you know. I think that, again, the importance, the most important part of a democracy is pluralism. And from my point of view, I don't know how plural is a political and an electoral system with just two parties right like, can you really cover all the interests of the people in just two parties, and actually two parties that for many people are seen, like, really alike from each other like, of course that right now we're seeing a brother polarization right like one, going more to let the other one going more to the right. But at the end, we can see it with with Biden like he was elected as a candidate because he's more in the middle. So we're not really seeing like a contrast of interest, like really different from each other. So I don't know, like, for me, plural pluralism is not reflected there. And in a sense, also like when there are several parties that doesn't that doesn't mean that it is a functional democracy either. For example, here in Mexico we have a lot of parties. And not because we have more parties it means that more interest are portrayed there. And also, like, ones that they come to power to power, most of them do not really change things like they stay just in the same line, and they do not. Yeah, they do not respect what they promised so like it is not necessarily more functional when there are more parties. Yeah, and it's interesting because you mentioned the political party system and it is true that, especially when you look at it from the outside, they're actually very similar they're very sort of centrist party somewhat. Obviously there are differences but this is something that's hard many for many Americans to appreciate. And the reality is that in a lot of other political systems you often have more parties and those parties often represent more narrow interest maybe it's a green party you know, a far right party or whatever it might be, multiple parties allow you to have more narrow focus. When you have these two catchall parties, it's hard for them to be that obviously they try to and perhaps arguably the Democrat Party tends to be more of an umbrella party that tries to bring everybody in. The problem there is that they can't be something for everybody so they have a challenge. The Republican Party increasingly is more and more narrow, perhaps not as broad, but there you have it. So let me continue maybe talking a little bit more about this system because the American political system of course it's been established and been in place so long. And yet that seems to be how the founders establish it to make it enduring. I mean I don't know if they imagined it was going to be 200 plus years, but maybe the point I'm asking here is that, obviously that system is also very hard to change. So you have a trade off on the one hand it's stable it's been around a long time. But on the other hand, it's difficult to change and if you can't change, then you run into some problems so I wonder maybe I just I mean what are some of the difficulties or challenges of a system that is on one hand stable, but maybe difficult to change. Or more generally I mean, I don't know just some continued observations on how you see the American political system. Okay, so like, like we were talking about at the beginning, like the talking about the concept of institutions that like actually the this chapter that we read made me reflect a lot about the concept of institutions and how the American political system is actually an institution and something that a very important characteristic about institutions is that they are resilient and they are traditionally that they are stable and they that they don't change a lot so that makes it like American politics pretty stable, but they also should be and I think that this is a concept or a characteristic that has become more use useful, like lately, that they should be also adaptable because circumstances change a lot. And we have, we have seen that the United States is changing a lot, and even the political parties, we were much I wanted to make also a comment about the political parties. I think that will traditionally to have two political parties also makes the United States, more stable or even like we can, we could see it like that like that like Larissa said here in Mexico we have a multi party system. And does that does not make exactly our system like very stable. So we continually associate like having a lot of representation or a lot of parties or different voices with not a lot of stability so personally I at the beginning I saw like a bipartisan system to party system as a stable system but continually with the current conditions. I now see that it's not very, it's not, it's not very beneficial it actually enforces polarization. And now we're used to talk about the Republicans or the Democrats as if they were like only two kinds of Americans but actually there are a lot of people inside both parties who have different views. So, I think that the two party system does not help with that. And yeah, that's a dilemma between the stability and the adaptability to the current situation. No, no very well put and indeed it that's the trade off because yes it is a stability that helps endure and shows the importance of this institutionalization. And indeed something we don't always understand or appreciate is that why do we have only two parties in the US it's not like it's a fixed reason the Constitution says nothing at all about about political parties. They emerge organically on their own but in the end, it is the rules and it is the electoral system in the US that makes it very difficult for smaller parties and you know I can't elaborate too much more detail but basically the single member districts that exists where you have to get a majority in all of those makes it hard for a smaller party. And let's just leave it at that for now at the end of the day we have two political parties, and yes they are increasingly polarized and today more than ever. And actually, I've shared this with you in different times but something about the US political system for many many years it was characterized as bipartisan there was a lot more cooperation that occurred. And this has been eroding now in the last 1020 years, especially probably began in the 90s with a, you know, a growing movement. Initially, what we called them the. Well, it was the contract with America with Newt Gingrich in the 1990s and they began to push a very polarized view. And as we know now with social media that helps to further push a lot of that and so we have a polarization. It's not unique to the US of course many places see it overall. But coming back now and maybe as we continue and finish some thoughts on the US political system. You know it is a paradox because it continues to be a country that is, well I shouldn't say continue because right now it's in a difficult situation right given what's been playing out, and given the election of Donald Trump it has eroded a lot of the image of the US abroad. And maybe I would turn on that you have all seen now in you know in these recent years the presidency of Donald Trump it's been a very maybe more antagonistic more assertive foreign policy, including with Mexico very you know very difficult relations. Eventually, they found a combination but of course not after Donald Trump made some very strong changes to US policy and immigration and forcing Mexico to control the southern border etc etc. But let me get at this. When you look at the American political system. Are you able to see the system as something that is separate and enduring versus the individual Donald Trump who is the leader today of the country and indeed the leader of the Republican Party. We still don't know the outcome. No, let me rephrase that we know the outcome. What I what I want to say is we don't know what's going to happen with Trump. Is he going to continue with the political ambition is going to try to run for office in four years. We don't know. But I guess I go back to this. Are you able to separate that individual and what he represents from the system and the society that it's a part of but also separate. Generally, where does Donald Trump fit into this. He will be leaving office probably on January 20 that's what we all expect. But his legacy will still be there right and whatever he's done or maybe the things that he represents. So maybe just some final thoughts on this I mean where do we see the US going forward in the future now that we have a transition in the works, perhaps Larissa starting with you. Yes, thank you. Well, yeah, as you said I think that even well Trump is going to leave office like eventually like, rather if he wants or not, it is going to happen. But yeah it's true that the people who voted for them for him sorry that was actually millions of people to a wall of America 70 million 70 million plus. Yes. Yeah exactly so like that people are going to remain there. The interests are very likely to be the same for at least another 10 years or so until their problems ourselves. So yeah of course that Trumpism or the idea that he represents like, given priority to the economy like rejecting global warming and all these like it is going to still be there. But the other part that Trump represents like not caring about institutions not caring about foreign affairs, like just tweeting everything that he wants and without thinking about the consequences. I think that is not going to happen anymore because as media was saying, the USA has really strong institutions. And as every democracy, there can be a person who arrives to power. Just like a momentary thing that doesn't mean that he's going to change everything like the system hasn't changed as we were saying for 200 years so I don't think that a single person is going to be able to change it. Third and interest are going to remain to remain there. And so the Biden, when he enters the power, he is going to have to to think how he going to include all these people. And in later elections like new candidates are going to have to think about this as well. But no I don't think that that Trump is the only like it's going to be the thing that is going to arrow the the political system. No, I don't think so. Very well said. Well, listen, in the last moment we have here another minute or two media, perhaps a similar concluding concluding thoughts. Where do you see I guess either this phenomenon of Trump or Trumpism or what he represents because yes he will leave office, but he will still be around we don't know if he's going to become a media giant or feel go hiding or what, but more than that, the idea is the issues that he represents the 70 plus million who voted for him clearly. And the polarized nature of the country. Will it survive. We've talked about a dysfunctional democracy it is chaotic but is this just the reality we have to accept or how do you see things as we move forward maybe in the coming years. Okay, thank you so I agree with Larissa I think that the, the strong institutions of the United States will will survive Trump so. Also, I want to make this right, which I a lot make it a lot of I make it a lot of times but that. Yes, there are 70 plus million people who voted for for Trump, but that does not mean that those people are are big fans of Donald Trump. Maybe they, they agree with some things with him or the party, or they agree more with him that with Biden so because like that a lot of people voted from for Trump that does not really mean that there are a lot of people that are influenced by Trump. So I tend to be more positive about this. I think that even the, the, the defeat of Donald Trump could have could bring very good things to the Republican Party, because I think that the presence of Donald Trump really has to go to many of the actual like very partisanship that yes that has been eroding but that eroding even more that eroded even more with Donald Trump, and that we might get back to some of it, especially because Joe Biden is seen as a person of dialogue that is like this, maybe like cooperation between move parties because he's a more traditional politician. So he's used to this bipartisanship and he might. I hope he will bring that again. And, but well, another thing that is not that positive about about Joe Biden is that he's like very traditional. So he will be, he will bring that tradition back and that institutionalism, but also, we don't know how adapt to the vote that that will be exactly no very well said and I think we'll finish on that note because it summarizes the same as the US system. It's been around a long time but is it sufficient to adapt well probably we'll see Joe Biden has a lot of experience but is he in a position now to adapt to these changes we'll have to see, but in the end I think you've you've offered us some valuable insights I want to thank both of you for joining me today on global connections a dialogue about this dysfunctional in the US it's a curious system and we're watching it unfold. We'll obviously come back for more on this dialogue but thank you again Mireya and Lisa for joining me on global connections today and for you our listeners a chance to dialogue about these issues and thank you again. Join us for the next global connections here. I'm your host Carlos Juarez.