 So, our next speaker is one of the early WordPress adopters. She created her first website on WordPress.com back in 2007, got invited to a WordCamp in 2013 and quickly found what I love leader refer to as my kind of crazy, our kind of crazy. She has spoken in the meanwhile at dozens of WordCamps, is co-organizer of two of them in California and leads the international marketing team of WordPress. I am proud and thankful to call her a friend, even living at the other side of the world. And I learned quickly that one of her core values is empathy. And being focused on long-term relationships, even when that means technical conflicts, has on. Which is exactly what she's going to talk about. Give Bridget Millay a warm applause because she reads her real treat. Don't give up. Don't give up. So, I'm going to tell you a tiny story. So, I was married for quite a while to a coach and his father was a coach. So, the whole family were coaches. The children went to the Olympics. Actually, my sister-in-law won for diving in 1960 and 1964 silver and bronze. She would have won gold, but she had an attack of appendicitis on her way down. That was not awesome. So, when you're around sports people, you kind of have to learn to fit in, you know. And anytime something would happen, I was like, oh, Mercier, what are we going to do? He said, we're going to punt. So, I was trying to think, what could I talk to my duchies that would kind of have one meaning here because of football and another meaning at home because of American football. So, I'm sure most of you know what a punt is, but in American football, it's all about gaining ground. And you have four opportunities every time you have the ball. Right? And if you're at your fourth opportunity and you haven't gained enough ground to have more opportunities to gain ground because American football is about war. It's an entire analogy about war and gaining territory. So, if you have this last opportunity, what are you going to do? You're going to do whatever it takes. And whatever it takes is punt. It doesn't matter if you're 85 yards from the end goal, you're going to punt. You're going to do something, something that might give you some kind of advantage. And so, if you don't understand sports, then you're not going to understand punt. I'm like, punt, what does that even mean? And so many times we have jargon in our world, whatever the industry is, right? So, I spent a lot of time in construction and we talked about alligatoring and ponding and all these words that you know from another context, but all of a sudden you put them in an industry focus and you're like, stop. Sorry. I have a part-time job with Serbians and sometimes the Serbian comes in and it's like, what? Stop. So, sass, you know, software is a service. It's also a JavaScript compiler, but that's what I think of. Sassay, you know, right? How about a hook for fishing? How about rest? I love naps so hard. I take 20-minute naps every day at 2.30. 2.30 feeling is a real thing. It's a circadian rhythm. You can't hack your body, people. And of course, my favorite, Jason Tucker. So, I just want to say like, for me as a marketer who sometimes used to dabble what I now know is not code, but markup a long, long time ago, back in the early 2000s when I took HTML classes and stole some code from CSS Zengarden for a website I'm not even proud of. I'm never proud of any website I do. I'm just like, 2017, yeah, let's publish. So, like, marketers sometimes are looked at as developers as the soft side of Sears or the soft skills. Like, you guys, in fact, I hear a lot, you're not technical. We're, you're marketers. And I'm just like, you know, like, marketing is a soft skill, but that soft skill is a social science. It's a social science, right? So, I have in it, like, you can, you can do marketing from a total data specific set. And I was talking to some of my friends yesterday at the dinner. I'm like, okay, yeah, you can look at data. But data is an autopsy, right? Data is a picture of the past. Without the story around the data, without the context of the data, you don't know what it means, right? And you could have good data and bad data, but without the, without the story around the data or the context of the data, it has no meaning. So, in order to be effective with marketing, you have to go beyond the computer and what the computer tells you what to do. And you have to interact with humans. So, I approach marketing, especially relationship marketing, which is what I specialize in, from a social science standpoint. So, I want to talk about Diane Fosse. And I want to say a disclaimer right here now. I am not comparing developers to primates. I love social science. I watch nature documentaries to sleep. And we can learn a lot from group dynamics by watching other primates. So, Diane Fosse was a researcher. She has a book that's really famous called Grills in the Mist. I watched the movie instead. With Sigourney Weaver. It's pretty good. She dies, but it's fine. I mean, you know what? I would rather know ahead and it's a true story, so you might have found that out anyway. But the point is that her actually, and Jane Goodall, who studied chimpanzees, did it in a way that was unconventional. And originally, Diane Fosse was supposed to go to study the mountain gorillas. This was a passion of hers because she was asked to do a census. One, two, three, four, ten, you know? And so, that's all she was supposed to have done. That's it. Just count. That's data. That's Google Analytics. But she did something beyond that because her training was occupational therapy. She decided to do something a little bit unconventional. And there was nobody there to correct her. She's all the way out in Kenya or wherever she was. I forgot details, whatever. Go look it up on the internet. And so, she went from afar. And every day, she would go closer and closer and closer and observe the mountain gorillas. And then she decided, you know what? She sees who the chief was, or the troop leader, right? And she would realize by watching the group dynamics that if he came around her, she needed to bow and deference and look away, right? Because when you make eye contact in a primate situation, that's aggression. So, aggression is matched with aggression. So, she did this amazing work because she observed, she respected the community that was there, and then she assimilated with them. She just mimicked their behavior. And because of that, she was completely accepted by the mountain gorillas and was able to do amazing work. There's now a foundation. So, you can make a persona all you want. But the persona doesn't really... So, I'm unconventional, like Dan and Fossey. And I think that personas are stereotypes. And sometimes they're true because sometimes stereotypes are true. But we are people. And as people, we grow and evolve and change. And so, we can say, as I was talking with my friends, we'll get to that in the questions and answers. But since you interrupted, I'll answer. A persona is, what I was going to tell you is, what we do is in marketing, we have this framework. Like you would have... I'm going to build this website based upon Genesis or underscores or something like that. And so, what you do is you have this persona guides the way you market. Like, here's Bob. He's 25, lives with his parents. He spends time playing World of Warcraft. He likes craft beer, science fiction, Comic Con, grunge metal, really hard coffee, and delivers pizza during the day. That's Bob. And so, knowing who Bob is and what his behaviors are, we can market to Bob. Well, in my conversation with my friends last night, I was trying to explain this and they go, what do you mean? I go, well, Eurone? Eurone? Sorry. Eurone rhymes with Maroon. Eurone? I said, do you play World of Warcraft? No, not anymore. Are you 23? No, 27. Do you live with your parents? Nope, I live at home. I have my own business. I'm a systems administrator. Okay. Do you like craft beer? Nope, not anymore. Right? Eurone maybe was Bob, but he's not Bob anymore because he's progressed in his life. So, if you're marketing to Eurone, like he's Bob, you're losing, he also, his favorite movie is not Star Wars, Law of the Rings, Star Trek, or The Avengers. His favorite movie is Shawshank Redemption, which is an American story about, you know, just like, well, obviously redemption. So, like, you're just, but it's, it's one of those American movies, like, in America we love the underdog and we love it when they can stick it to the man, you know. So, I totally did not expect a 27-year-old duchy. Sorry, he's from Brussels. Sorry, sorry, sorry. From Belgium that he would be, like, totally into Shawshank Redemption as his number one favorite movie, right? So, if I'm trying to market to Eurone as if he's Bob, I'm off. I'm losing it. So, what I started doing to prove my point is I decided that, okay, here I am. I'm a marketer. I went from being a blogger to, you know, all of a sudden I'm doing social media for WordCamp. And I was trying all these things that I thought would work because I thought I knew men, right? Well, this is all men, so it's going to be easy because I was doing construction, so easy, easy, easy. But then I was like, something's not working because everything I know that works is not working. And so, I said to my friend Alex, I said, here's the thing. There are jokes. There's inside jokes, right? And so, inside jokes indicate some level of intimacy because, you know, joke is somebody you don't know, right? Like now we call Brex Bob because Bob said, okay, because Brex said, I am Bob. So, you can tease him about that later. But he's giving a talk in Dutch. So, now we have an inside joke with him, right? But that's because we have a certain level of intimacy. So, I was saying, I know that there's inside jokes. So, I know there's conversations being had, but I'm not seeing them in public. Now, this is before I knew there was slack. This is before I was going to WordPress meetups. And so, I said, this is like the giant pandas. You know that they mate because there are more pandas, but nobody's seen it happening. It's never been recorded, again, with the social science and nature documentaries, right? But in my mind, because I love a good analogy, I thought, I am missing something huge here because I'm not getting the context and I am not understanding my audience. So, if you don't interact with your audience, you're never going to understand them. So, what I said is, okay, I'm going to go to meetups. And I'm going to make a commitment to every other month going to a developer's meetup. And then I'm also going to go to developer talks. Because even if I don't understand it or have zero intention of ever using any JavaScript library ever or building a plugin ever or ever building another website ever, ever, ever, I still can understand the strategic implications of what each tool does, what it means, why people are more interested in react versus Angular versus View, how that works with Gutenberg and the way things are changing in WordPress, backward compatibility. Those kinds of things are important because they're important to our customers, they're important to our audience, they're important to our community and they're important to our culture. And about 90% of my friends are developers. So, even if I just want to be pals and choke around with them, I still have to do this. It was funny because when I was working at Give, one of my co-workers Kevin Hoffman said, your analogies are getting surprisingly accurate. I'm like, I made your tweets flex box. I know what's going on. So, you don't really know your audience if you don't interact with them because you stereotype them. So, go beyond and interact because personas make presumptions and presumptions are stereotypes and we are an inclusive community and you are not you and you are not you and you are not you, right? Are you all individuals? If I started pulling you on things, your tools, your workflows, some people like PHP code sniffer, some people like PHP storm, your IDEs are different, your operating systems are different, you like to work in your shorts, you like to take a shower first, some people want to work in Bali, some people want to work in a co-working situation. Everybody has their own preferences and styles and things that matter to them and things that make them excited and things that tell them who they are and what makes them feel belonged and loved and cherished and all of the things that make a community an actual community and you can't have a community without empathy and you can't have empathy without understanding and you can't have marketing without empathy because otherwise you're going to lose it, you're going to be way above here, way, you're going to, you're just going to, you're going to miss it because you're not going to connect. So, social observation affirms and corrects personas. So, observing, so that's the thing. So, let's talk about this. So, how can you observe your audience? How can you do that? So, like I said, for me, I'm a marketer so I decided I'm going to go to the developer meetup every other month and I'm going to go to developer talks. It means listening and a lot of times what we don't do is we don't listen. We like to talk. We're all very smart people. We're part of the smartest people on the planet. We're building something amazing. You're giving away all your intellectual property for free, which is something I had a really hard time accepting as a writer and as a songwriter who has copyrights. It's like in my brain I'm like what do you mean you're giving us away? Why? But then of course I've turned, I've turned the way and I'm like oh open source, the free and open source movement, this is awesome. Peace, love and wordpress, right? So, but I did have, it's like wait, wait. You mean you're writing this and you're giving it away? They're like yeah, I need to just fork it. I'm like so what do they pay for? Like support? Like stop? My brain couldn't handle it, right? But that's once I've observed it and seen it happening then it's easy for me to respect something that I can watch. It means being quiet a lot of the time, which for me is pretty hard if you've ever gotten into a conversation with me or had me interrupt you while you were speaking. Respect doesn't happen unless we establish that empathy and that relationship. So I started doing this by asking questions and at first, especially in the developer meetup, I was really shy but then I couldn't take it anymore. I'm like okay what is front end and what is back end? And what is the wordpress dashboard? Is that like Middle Earth? I don't understand. Like because it's none of those things, right? So people were like okay we'll tell you, right? So if you ask a question not to be like da-da-da-da-da-da-da, but you're like can you help me understand the strategic reason for a custom post type? Like why would I bother doing that? Why don't I just make it a regular post type? And then they'll go blah-blah-blah-blah. This is why. Gravity forms does this thing. The user can put in, you know, information and it's this other kind of thing, whatever. So that's what I'm saying. Strategically I get it. Like sometimes it serves the purpose of your website because a website is a tool. We like to build it and we think this is great like construction. We build a building but that's not the end of it. The building is meant to be used, occupied, lived in, perused, wandered through. And so you guys are building infrastructure for people to communicate with each other and have relationships. So for me I'm like oh that makes total sense. You know, and so as I started asking questions and respecting the people I was talking to, guess what? They started respecting me. So I didn't have to say listen people, you're the nerds, I'm the marketer, I tell you what to put on the website and don't ask any questions just get it done. Because that's how it happens in companies. In the real world, which is not the WordPress project, right? You tell IT what to put on the internet and they do it. In WordPress you ask super nice and through a meta ticket and maybe it happens and maybe it doesn't. Right? I'm just saying but it's different but you have to have that respect but I can't just come in here and go I'm marketing. Do this. It doesn't work like developer, develop. When I first came I came from construction so I'm a word developer because that's the person who buys property and builds buildings on it. Like in my world, right? So it's all about respect and learning and observing. Observing means being quiet and watching. Observing means taking notes. Oh, so like if I'm in a meetup and somebody's talking, I watch to see when Jonah was talking, I watch to see who looks at him. Right? Oh, they're all looking at him. I mean who's the leader? Who's the silver back mountain gorilla? Like are they naughty? Is Felix naughty when Jonah talks? Where's Felix going? Where's Jonah again? He always says stop because he's English. You know? Or even when I was talking to Felix in Seattle last year about some issues I had on track in the culture of track, he said Bridget, there's nothing against you. They're just German. Like they're just developers. They're just straightforward. It's fine. It's not about you. They don't even know you. They don't care about you. It's fine. And I went, oh, see, I didn't, I put my context onto something that was foreign to me because track was foreign, right? Being part of make WordPress was foreign. So even though I had these friends, they were all super local. They weren't multicultural. They weren't multilingual. That's a whole other dynamic than just diversity in my own city. Right? Now here I am in Europe working in a global economy with a global community who's iterating and communicating in several languages with several different translations in their mind and cultures that go along with it. Right? So it goes back to observe, observe, and then respect. And after you have that, then you can assimilate. And I know that maybe this is a hard term for a community that celebrates diversity, but the assimilation is more in the acceptance of the diversity. It's more in how we behave with one another. It's more in embracing the internal social structure. Like Marike was talking about the internal linking structure. In social groups, you have internal social structure, which sometimes we call politics out of frustration. But the truth is that the silverback gorilla is the silverback gorilla. And if you're going to piss him off, there's something bad that's going to happen. Right? You're not going to be allowed. It's like the snow monkeys in Japan, which I super want to see. So here's the thing. The snow monkeys are the primates that live in the most cold temperature besides humans. And they're in the mountains of Japan. You can watch a whole documentary on them narrated by Liam Neeson. So anyway, the thing is that they have these hot springs. There's actually a zoo you can go to in Japan if you want to. And if they have to go down to the hot springs and have the hot springs, that's where they do their grooming. And so when you're grooming, you know, first they get all that protein and it's all disgusting, any bugs or whatever. But the one who grooms lowers their cortisol levels, which is a stress hormone. And the one who is groomed also has lower cortisol levels. Which one do you think has the lowest cortisol levels? The one who grooms. That's correct. So being and interacting with other humans in a physical space is very important and not in a breach of code of conduct where I'm being just normal, like shaking hands with the speaker, good keynote. You know what I'm saying? So that's just normal. Now my cortisol went down, right? I give a hug. Then my oxytocin goes up, not oxycodone, oxytocin. Because all of this is brain chemistry. And so the heater is dehumanizing, like he was talking about. He totally prepped you. I was so excited. It's like, yes. Because the thing is we forget. That's why being and observing and assimilating in person makes a huge difference. Because if I interact with somebody in a text-only basis, like on Slack, asynchronously, which is so awesome, I lose all of those microfacial expressions. I lose all of the body language. I lose the tone. You lose 85% of what makes communication communication. So it's so important to attend meetups if you're a marketer. If you're a developer, I would say the opposite. To attend developer meetups if you're a marketer or developer talks. If you're a developer, it would go the other way around, right? Attend some business talks. Attend some talks about marketing. Try to figure out who those people are. Because guess what? We need each other. You need words to go on the website you built. I need to put words on a website, right? So we're made to go together like peanut butter and Hagen schla, right? See, I didn't say jelly. I'm assimilating a little bit. So the thing is, the thing is that we are better together. Marketers need developers. Developer needs marketers, and we need respect in order to have the empathy. And when we have empathy, we have acceptance, trust, loyalty, and then we actually have a community. Not just this ethereal thing in the air, like an atmosphere holding in our oxygen. Something you only realize you need when you're in outer space. Because you tried to go to Mars and it didn't work out. Thank you. Oh, I'm sorry. That was my call to action slide, but whatever. Do we have any questions? We have a few moments. Before I invite people to ask questions, I'm going to remind students of case repeats question for the recording. And thank you so much for this talk. It was inspiring. You're welcome. It can be behind. We all sometimes need to keep communicating. Oh, I was supposed to thank the Yoast Diversity Fund for sending me here. Thank you. So questions. Yes, please. So I excellent talk completely agree. I've seen a lot of people struggle to work out where to start. Like there's a lot of unknown unknown to develop or marketer. There are worlds of skills that you've never seen. You don't understand the technology. Where do you get an overview of what the parallel skills and words and things are? So Joe knows asking where you get the parallel skills like where do you even start? So I started by just going and the thing is like I was like, Oh my God, I'm going to go on Instagram right now. I have no idea what they're talking about. This is like, ah, you know, I felt so like my hair was uncomfortable. Like what is what? Who's Jason? And why does he need sleep? I can't understand this West API thing. And I was just like, Oh, what are they talking about? I'm just I'm like panicking. I'm like looking at people like who is the person? Who's the grayback? You know, who's the silverback? Like what is happening here? And I realized, you know, what doesn't matter? There's no test, right? So where you start is I'm a something is better than nothing person. So I say start somewhere. So if you don't have a business meetup, that's fine. But like maybe you have a friend that's a marketer. So a lot of times, because my friends are developers, join all they'll say, Hey, Bridget, I have a question. You're a social media nerd. And I'm like, Yeah, like you can start having that conversation. It's just about like, we're meeting people, you guys are meeting the smartest of each other. Like this is the opportune place. Like maybe if you already know about the rest API, don't go to that class. You know, go to the go to something different. Don't go to the class at all. Go talk to somebody in the hall. Say, Hey, I want to build my business. You know, how do I, what do I even start like ask them and then they what they're going to do is ask you questions. Just like when you say your classes, I want a website. That's awesome. What would you like it to do? What colors would you like? Do you have font pairings? How about a logo that isn't like in a JPEG? You know, do you know what I mean? Like, so you have to ask questions to get it out of each other. And then when you do that, you make relationships and then your friends with people. It's kind of magic. Does that answer your question? Yes, sir. Yeah. Um, so. Oh, sorry. So my question is, um, you're, you're an extrovert person, right? No, I'm absolutely not. This is a trained skill. I would love to be in my room for the rest of the day, but I came like 20 hours just to be here. So I'm going to die when I go home. So then my question is about how do you have tips for introvert? Do you have tips for introvert people? I have so many tips. I am, I love Twitter with all my heart. Okay. And the reason why I love Twitter is because what makes me shy around people, because I will never walk up to any of you to say, no, this is fine. I can do this all day long because no problem. I have lots of things to say. I will never walk up to you ever, ever, ever, ever. This is not, I know, I know I'm working on it. I would rather die. Like I was proud of myself for like switching tables last night. Okay. So usually I sit in a chair and I'm like, you can sit next to me and that's fine. We'll talk, but I'm not going to go like, can I sit here? Like, okay. So, okay. Stop rambling. Here's the thing. Twitter. Twitter, you can craft your words. Twitter, you have no idea if people are looking. Oh yeah. I love conversations where you're like, they're like, look, oh shoot. I really just want to talk to Jono. And you can see their body moving away from you, you know, because first you're like this, talking, talking, talking, talking. You're still awesome. And then you can see their bodies wanting to leave, right? Because I can see those cues. So then I'm like, whatever, blah, blah, blah, whatever. It doesn't matter. You know, but on Twitter, I can make those relationships and say like, it's really cool that you're into privacy and your Twitter account is also private. I mean, you know, but you're giving a public speak that's going to be on the internet, but whatever, like, you know, but we can have this conversation, right? I wouldn't say it to you in person. I said it to him on Twitter earlier, you know, so I can say it on Twitter, right? So a good tip is, and that's what I did is when I started going to work caps to 2013, I would just live tweet quotes and then what would happen is speakers would come and talk to me. It's like, you're Bridget, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Hey, thanks for tweeting on my thing. And then be like, oh, blah, blah, blah, blah. And then all of a sudden you're talking and Mike with Bluehost is your friend. I don't know. I didn't know he was a big deal. Like, what do I know? I don't know anything. I'm new. I'm brand new. I've known nothing about it because I didn't have enough time to observe, right? So an internet tip is definitely Twitter and also take some breaks. I always tell people where camps do not go to every talk. Do not. Work camps are getting better at that because there's more quiet spaces. So take some time to just chill out. We have another question. Can I make a remark on Improved People? That's a great book. A remark isn't a question. You can make a remark on Twitter and say, hey, you should read this book by Interverts. Is there a real question? Yes, sir. How do I develop empathy toward the customers I don't have direct contact with? That is hard because you're not hearing the pain points unless you're in support. The support people know everything that's going on. And a lot of times support and marketing don't talk, but they totally should. I really just wanted to have access to help scout because that would tell me everything I needed to write about on the blog. But companies sometimes are siloed, so it is super difficult. Depending upon your agency, you could ask. I don't feel like I'm going to build the right type of website unless we really know this person. Can you tell me more about them? I know Jen Miller would need someone to blog. She's one of our sponsors here at this camp. She interviews her clients, but it's her agency, so that starts with her. It's top down. So sometimes it's the style, but it is tricky. For me, I do research. So I do some, I write speaker bios for people. And what I do is I read your tweets. I read your LinkedIn. I read what people say about you on LinkedIn. And then I get a full picture of who you are. But it is hard if you don't have access. And that's what I'm saying about the giant pandas. Even if you go to San Diego Zoo, you have to be super quiet and you can only be there when they're out. There's just sometimes you just don't have the access we want to be able to do the things we need. But if you ask, maybe your marketing team doesn't realize that that would actually help you do your job better. That's what I tried to explain them. So only after we started developing, I heard that someone over there was blind. Now, and I thought, wow, that's, that's, that's a lack of empathy right there. Because this changes what I need to do. And still I said, now I need to develop empathy. The only one you're going to have contact with them, where people selling and inside, I wasn't supposed to do that. It wasn't my fault. And what would you say to such a howdy? There's a lot of other people hiring right now. XWP is hiring. Savvy, I think is hiring. I'm serious though. In order to do your job well, and this is why it's so important to me because I love you. Developers are my friends. And in order for you to do the work that matters, you need to be able to have some freedom. You need to be respected. You need to charge more, but that's another talk. And then we need to be able to help each other, right? So it's very hard. And Simon Sinek talks about this a lot and start with why, but it's very hard to change culture from bottom up. I tried it in several companies. It doesn't work. Guess who I work for now? Bridget Willard.com. I mean, sometimes if it becomes that inhibiting to you, you might have to do some introspection and make some decisions, but it is really hard. And if you, if you say it to me, I say to employers, you know what? You have the right to be wrong. And I have the right to work somewhere else. Do we have time for any more questions? And tweet out that book. Why don't they just make a fucking hell of a world phase or program and then talk with developers, then you have the experience. And then, yeah, well, already you may set for any other manager. Are you asking why marketers don't create a program so that they can have a conversation with a developer? Okay, so why don't the question is, why don't you do it so that you have the right to talk to people? You know, with love and admiration, I say that is a really arrogant way to go about it. But I have started free code camp. And I'm into applied accessibility now because, and that's why I do go to the developer meetups, because I don't think I should have to do what you do to be respected. And I don't think you should have to do what I do. That's the whole point of celebrating diversity. Celebrating diversity doesn't mean that we take each other's places. It means that we respect each other regardless of the differences in our roles. And so I'm not a developer, so I don't feel that it's my right to tell you how to treat us. But I can talk to marketers and tell them that what I've done is what I outline, which is attending developer talks, starting free code camp. I've done a lot of work way outside of my purview to earn the respect that I've had. I feel that it's unfair in a lot of ways, but as a woman, I've already had to do that in so many ways anyway. So I'm kind of used to it. That's life. So I'm for whatever successful. And I have done that. And that's why I'm giving this talk. So that's the answer. I don't think that you should have to. I think that you should respect people for their skill sets. And also earlier in the talk, I said marketing is technical. So Wendy had a question. Yes, I do. Once you get to know the community. So how do you keep your view fresh once you start assimilating? And that's the tricky part in the community that celebrates diversity. So what I mean by using their words is it's like you could. So I came here, right? So I did a little bit of Duolingo so I can learn some Dutch. And I'm really good at making Dutch people laugh at the horrible pronunciation. But I did try. I did that in Paris. I did that in Serbia. And it goes a long way for showing respect is that I did try to say good morning. You know, I totally screwed up. I love you, but your room will forgive me. Thank you. Well, I got a little bit sort of and I make him, you know, I mean, I'm trying like, but it, but the thing is like, if I talked to my friend, Josh Pollock, I know that he really cares about the rest API. I don't have to know what that is exactly. But I know that if I find something about that, I'm going to ask Josh. So Josh, what do you think about this? Like, is it okay that it's unsecure? When is it going to be merged in the core? That kind of stuff. It's kind of like when I used to talk to my friends who are followed basketball in our, in our town, it was about the Lakers. So I said, when is Kobe going to retire? Then basically I'm in the conversation. Then they all start talking. I'm out. That's another introvert tip, by the way. Headlines read Kobe's retired now. And I'm not around basketball people anymore. So that doesn't work for me. But that kind of assimilate enough that you can show that you're giving respect by trying. And I've found that that's been very true to me. Almost zero of my developer friends have ever talked down to me as though I wouldn't understand what they're talking about, including Carl Alexander and all of these super smart people like Felix. We've had great conversations and he doesn't sit, well, you wouldn't know what that is because you're just a marketer. In fact, I tweeted out a joke. It's 11, it's 12 o'clock at night. I'm doing free code camp, drinking a Hefweizen. Who am I? And five people wrote, a badass developer. And I'm like, yeah. So Robert had an HTML5 sticker on that. And I'm like, yeah, I'm gonna take that because I passed it in free code camp. So the thing is, it's like, once you show that you're trying, you are totally accepted. And acceptance comes from the group, assimilation comes from the individual. So it's the two sides of the same behavior. Does that answer? How do you keep yourself? Because you talked about Bob and how to market to Bob. Yeah. But when you become like Bob-ish yourself, then marketing to Bob could be hard. It could be hard. How do you stay fresh? Yeah, how do you stay fresh? So it is hard because I do lose myself in these personas. And as a social media manager, I do take on the persona of the brand. I take on the brand's voice and I do lose my identity a little bit. In hectic days, even with Yvette, I said, who am I? Who am I today? It is hard because, but a fresh way is also talking to a new person. The new people are totally fresh. In fact, Morton gave a great talk at WordCamp Europe a few years ago about learning. And he said, hey, WordPress was easy 10 years ago when I learned it. It's not easy anymore. I don't know if it's easy. I learned it 10 years ago. So you need to learn empathy for your users by learning something new so you took ballroom dancing. So the perspective is in the learning, keeping it fresh is communicating with the new people. A third of the people raised their hand today that don't do it to WordCamp. So you can ask them, what are you thinking about this? Because once you're in, you only see your own internal conflict with the silver back gorilla. So, hey, thanks guys for listening. I'm sorry we went late. I'm around. I was just making sure that we didn't. Okay, but we, I'm on Twitter and I'm here and I'm always on Twitter no matter what the time zone is. So don't worry. Like when I go home, you can still talk to me. Thank you so much. Thank you.