 But up, but up, but up, but up, but up. Here we are. Oh God, there's a fourth person. Ah, you say something. Not usually here. Oh, sorry. Yeah. Uh, hi. There you go. Thanks for- Thanks for sharing in the show. You know, we just have so much variety in the form of what we cover and who we cover with. I saw you tweeting about this little show and I was like, hey, that'll be fun. We can talk to you about it. The episodes that have come previously and are to come. So I guess we could simultaneously catch up quickly. What did you think of episodes one and two? I'm digging it so far. A few missteps, but nothing that egregious. I'm quite impressed with it overall. What would you say is the most praiseworthy thing? I'm tempted to say that it actually followed the game, which is what Halo should have done. Well, it would be the point of it. I don't think it followed. But I don't think it needed to be exactly like the game, but I'm glad that it did. And I like how crazy the zombies are. Yeah, I mean, the people that play in the Clickers are pretty neat. And I just think the detail on the prosthetics are really good as well. So you have like this grounded human drama, which I think Craig Mason is quite good at. But you also have like the pulpy, like crazy zombies. It like turned up to a degree that we haven't really, that I haven't seen since like 28 days later where they really feel like a threat. What do you mean? Walking Dead's been out and going for years. Oh my God. Why does everyone hate Walking Dead? What did it do other than be horrible? Geez, you make wonders of it. This, it's quality so far. Well, if you had the biggest criticism, what would it be? If I had to pick a thing, this even bothered me in the game where the soldier shoots at Joel and Sarah. And it's like Joel should probably be dead, right? Maybe he's like got shot point blank full auto. It's like he was barely grazed and he just rolls down the hill and then I don't know, the soldier takes his time like re-approaching him. And I don't know, I remember that kind of bugging me in the games and it kind of bugged me here again too. Yeah, it's hard to even tweak that to fix it because you kind of degenerate a scenario where someone shoots at them with a rifle and only tags his daughter and not him. It's like that's a very specific result that can be difficult to sort of provide because like, especially just be shot from a rifle. He's just like, oh, you're both dead surely. And you know, Tommy turning up just too late slash just too early to have either both of them or none of them die. Yeah, but that I think is just a small detail. It's not a huge deal. I didn't really get in the way. Some of the things I saw people talking about they were surprised we didn't talk about. So I was curious if you guys have any additional thoughts but everyone was very weirded out by Tess getting the tendril kiss before she dies. You have any commentary for that? It doesn't strike me as too, I mean, it is weird but all of this is sort of weird. The question is really like, is it weird in a way that doesn't seem to fit their behavior or if that's a setup for later? The tendrils almost seem like they're like a sensory organ or they are like checking to her breath or something to see if she's infected or something along those lines. It was like a really fast way to infect someone maybe. Maybe a really fast way to infect. Was the old lady doing that in the first episode when she looks up, the tendrils come out of her mouth and remember the first guy who's infected and the body has the tendrils coming out of it as in the mouth as well. Yeah, the tendrils are definitely a thing. I just meant the targeting of like mouth to mouth which may be a fast way to spread it and that's why that happens that way. But part of what I thought suited about it was the fact that Tess was like absolutely terrified of becoming one of them. And then like talking about having a worse fear realized right before she actually kills herself. It's that close and that's like a violation in a couple of ways, right? Like it feels really, I think it's supposed to feel really gross. Simultaneously it's like, well, that has the effect of feeling gross to a lot of audience members. And so a lot of people were uncomfortable watching it. They didn't want to see that. I would imagine that that was the feeling that they were trying to evoke with that saying, this is a deeply uncomfortable. Yeah, like on a specific level and then on a broad level, right? Like it's not just that it's annihilated society, they are fucking disgusting. They take the human body and use it for whatever they want. That tendril kiss, the one thing that kind of threw me off about it is that I'm not sure what makes an infected go crazy biting someone and then doing something like that where it's just like a weird leaning in for a kiss sort of thing. I thought the issue with that one was that she was moving very little and so the clicker wasn't 100% sure of what was in front of it, maybe. Okay, and it was one of the blind ones, right? I'm not sure actually, I need to check again. It was a stalker, I think, and I'm pretty sure the stalker's a kind of partially blind because it's like you got runners who can still see and then as the growth gets there, it becomes more and more difficult to see and so they get to clickers when they can't see and they have to use echolocation. It's kind of in the middle ground, that one. Right. And I don't know if the concept of she is infected and maybe she's giving off some kind of a signal or some pheromone or some sort of something. As much as I think that's a fair idea, does that reflect with Ellie at all? I need, I don't know. I don't know if Ellie be having it, but being like immune to it is something they can sense. I just don't know. Maybe. I think they need to, I'll believe it if they come up with an explanation or if they explain it, I can go along with that. The impression I'm getting with these, the fact that episode one and two began with like, sort of a delving into the nature of the infection makes me wonder if that's gonna be something that gets explored way more in this show compared to in the game, like how it actually works and how a cure might come to exist rather than just maybe a cure can actually come from this. I'm guessing that there might be trying to actually delve into it a little bit more, how it works and how to stop it. Perhaps. I think it's fine because I understand why they're doing it. Like they, Craig Mason didn't wanna do spores because then you'd have the actors with gas masks on a lot and he said himself that that didn't, he felt that didn't translate to film very well. So it's like, okay, well there needs to be what component of the fungal growth infects other people? If you're not gonna do spores then it needs to be like tentacles. They've added in the sort of network aspect which I think it's fine. I've seen people say like they better stay consistent to it. It's like, it should be easy to stick to, right? Cause it's either if the place is old and dry then it won't have any like network potential. But if ever they fire it or kill quarter set monsters where they fall onto like a floor that's covered in the same goop then it can like translate messages and stuff. So it sounds like something they should be able to control pretty easily and then it can also cause, you know, big drama on a whim. It's a better setup to have hordes appear than hordes simply appear, you know? Yeah. But hopefully they use it well. But yeah. Yeah, the fungal network idea really did. It's an interesting idea. Yeah, if they do it well, I could really be into it. We'll see how they actually, you know, utilize that new mechanic going forwards. What to see, Doug? Yeah, we're up to episode three now where who knows what'll happen? I mean, no wing exactly what happens in the game doesn't necessarily tell you what'll happen in the episodes. I've seen plenty of discussion for this one already. So we'll have lots of things to talk about once we're at the end of it. Whoa. Cabo. Good Cabo. Oh, that's a different one. Hi. It's kind of like the... No pre-credits scene, evidently. Nah, we're moving on. We're moving past that. They've evolved past that. That old cultural monolith. This is a new era. Look at all this grossness spreading. It's kind of like cheese whiz. You never want that growing everywhere. Equally gross. Children eat cheese whiz and I think it's amazing. It just shows that children are retarded. Well, have you tried cheese whiz in different things? Maybe it really tastes good when it's with the ice cream. Ice cream? Nice cheese whiz on the ice cream. You want some chocolate syrup or some, you know, anything like that? Nah, I'll just have the cheese whiz. Just get a big old swirly of it on, a big old spiral on the top, yellow and white. And that's what this intro evokes. Oh, it's prey. Took that rock a million years to get to shore, Charlie Brown. Now you've thrown it back. Now he's making art out of it. Oh, I didn't throw it back. He is making art. Wow. Not bad, honestly. That Joel was an artist, yeah. He found some good stones to stack up. Ellie's like, Joel, come on, are you still fucking around with those rocks? Yeah, that took him like three days to balancing. We think he's a great artist, but he's a really bad artist. The power of editing. You want your jacket back? Oh, let's let me spread. I don't want your sorry. I wasn't gonna say I'm sorry. Nobody made you retest take me. You needed a truck battery or whatever, and you made a choice. So don't blame me for something that isn't my fault. It's a bit of a subversion, right? Because the typical conversation is, like, I'm sorry for what happened, but it says it's not your fault. If it'd been like, please don't blame me for that. They probably went to like a real forest to do that. You know what? This is a green screen. They're getting really, really good with him. What are the forest? Oh, God, that's a fucking fake forest. Disney didn't have the, they didn't spring for going into the woods, but they had to green. Wow, that thing is, it's more expensive to shoot outside because you have to pay attention to, like, your sunlight and, you know, weather conditions. It must be so annoying to know that, like, they can't just get away with it. They just can't. Yeah, like, it's Disney. Like, just go outside and fucking turn the camera on. What if it's rainy? The scene's rainy. It was all shot in Canada, so as a Canadian, you're welcome. Well, Canada's got them nice pine tree forests and everything. And also no cap on their tax credit in Alberta. Someone shot at me and missed. I missed too. That was more often than you think. Because you suck at shooting or, like, in general? In general. Shooting guns is fucking hard, bitch. Well, I think that's, that's kind of neat, right? He's trying to say, like, most people miss most of the time. The vast majority of the shots will be misses. I was thinking I should probably... I do wonder about that. I guess it is just a matter of character-wise. He just doesn't, would you say he doesn't trust to or just sees it as a bad move to give her a gun because you probably want... Bad move to give her a gun. You probably want your only other companion to have the capacity to save your life. In this situation, I don't know if I'd give her a gun either. Like someone who's not familiar with firearms, I feel like they'd just be more of a danger to me, especially if we're walking around the interiors and dark places and we're jumping agitated. I don't want this person who's not used to guns having a gun. Well, yeah, not before you've had an opportunity to actually, you know, teach you how to use one. Plus, guns like... You can't really teach someone very well because you don't have ammo to spare, right? Also, the elements of, like, it's a handgun. They're really, really difficult to shoot accurately without practice. It would be safer to give her the fucking assault rifle, probably. I imagine she could have maybe gotten some light training, like if she's part of a military escort. Like, what was the school? It was a training, it was like a school school. It was a Federer school, right? Yeah. I don't know if they would have given training for weaponry. Nah, they're probably gonna save all that for actual, like, soldiers and militia. I guess. She's pretty young, too. I wouldn't be surprised she hasn't had any training, but that's the thing, uh... If they do a payoff where she shoots her gun for the first time and she misses horrifically and the guns are really, really loud and it's like the recoil she's not used to, then that would be a nice payoff. And she'll say, eat this and hit the infected right between the eyes. From a mile away. Yeah. Blow the barrel. He just said, you can go look around because this place has been cleared out like there's nothing here. I hope she doesn't fucking find something. And you're telling me that's something he missed, or? He hasn't even been back there yet. No, this is the place he's been before. You forgot where you put your stuff. No. I'm gonna take a look around, see if there's anything good. Trust me, it's all been picked over already. Oh, it is? Yeah, this is the place he's been many times. Oh, yeah, I got to know myself about this. He's currently getting his stash that he keeps here and he said, you can go look around because this place has been run over so many times that there's nothing to find. I don't believe for a second that he wouldn't have found this, so I hope there's nothing new down here. Are you gonna jump down there without a way to get back up? Without even telling Joel? Without telling Joel? Oh, gee, I hope you don't fucking... I like that there's no spooky music yet. I hope there's no spooky, sudden monster down here too. Well, that'll do it, I guess. That'll help. I like how it just holds on the eerie ambience of this, like the stillness of it. Yeah, rather than hitting your head with like a musical track to get you freaked out. Yeah, like, boom, we're in the dark now. Oh, shit. Yeah. In the dark of the night, people will find her. There is an infected, damn it. Of course there could be. Well, so that's like a double whammy of annoying. Joel being like, you can go wander off because I've been here before and there's nothing here. It's like, that doesn't mean there isn't something here now. Yeah, the mobile nature of life is such that maybe something has arrived since your last meeting. And to be honest with you, I wouldn't be surprised at this point he was hyperprotective of her for the sake of Tess. As in like, it is my job now to make sure you make it, no matter what. Well, that guy is, he's ready for a, he's ready for studying. He's, he's like, I'm gonna hit anyone. Such a like, gross disease, fungal flea. Yeah, pretty terrifying. Did we each find secret tunnels? Oh, it looks like he's found his stash. Kind of interesting, it's following the knife. Yeah, well, I'm guessing it's something they might be trying to sort of establish here, right? There's like, there's an element of humanity left in a certain infected. You. Like the lady in the second one. Yeah, that's real gross, geez. Damn, well, it's probably for the best. Cause there was something that was a neat touch in the games is that the runners sometimes when they're standing there, you can hear them crying. Cause it's like, they're still, they're still sort of aware of what's happening. Oh, really? Yeah, like they're still aware as, and they're slowly losing control until obviously once you start to get to click as they're like non-human anymore. Yeah, dying light did that in a really creepy way too. We're some of the ones who are like the more fresh zombies that are really quicker and they can climb. They, they say some things. They're zombies, but you could hear like actually a little bit of words coming out of them and stuff. No. It's like, that's like, that's scary. I don't know if this comes across as nitpicking, but come on, you're not going to tell him what you found. They literally found an infected over there in your safe stash place, just saying. No, it feels like they're doing the whole, like she handled all of that on her own and didn't even mention it. One thing that would be good is to maybe like put that in a plastic bag or something and roll it up. Keep the moisture off of it. Also it'd be nice to know how much ammo we actually had because that would factor into whether or not I think it's a good decision to leave that behind. Or to just bring the magazine or just the bullets. Dude, you've got to go up in the sky. Yeah, well, so do they. Physically though, safest way to travel. Yeah, safer than trains. Fuck trains, am I right guys? How? I mean, how did it even start? Corticeps mutated. Some of it got into the food supply. Probably a basic ingredient like flour, sugar, bread, cereal. Pancake mix. Cheese whiz. We need enough of it. It'll get you infected. There goes on. It started to get sick. And that's the thing too, right? They won't realize that the food's, the reason that's done it, so they'll keep eating the food for at least a little bit longer. Yeah, and depending on like the specifics of the virus or the fungus itself that, you know, who knows what the incubation is or. Yeah. I've heard there's like ants that will crawl all over something and then I'll start biting so that they can coordinate instead of the first one on bites and then the rest don't get a chance, so who knows if the fungus has some kind of semi-intelligence like that. Maybe. Serious, Ellie. Can it hurt me? No. I'm not too honest, man. Should have said axe murder, whatever it was. I think it's gone. There's definitely a dynamic difference of the early on relationship in the game. I think he is much colder to her. Let me use that. I'm a pretty good shot with that thing. How about we just leave this kind of stuff to me? Well, we could both be armed. Cover each other. I don't think so. I need you to shut up. All right. Yeah. I think some people think of him as more of a pushover in the show as a result of that when, you know, it's easy to interpret, he's just less cold. There's a scene to come up that I've seen in the trailers where he refers to her as cargo. But I think he's just saying that in a moment, probably, because he's mad at her or something. He's definitely warming up to her already. All right, so let's all kill ourselves. Well, so apparently that logic is if his QZs are full, when they have people to come in that they can't take care of, do they let them, I guess, run away off or do they kill them? Seems a little evil to fucking kill them. Yeah, like if you just, if you're in the quarantine zone anyway, then why not just let the people outside of it? Stay outside of it? Yeah, especially if they're rural areas. I suppose is that like they want us to believe that they just consider a group of humans. They're just too fucking risky to let live as it'll turn into zombies and come back. But I don't know. No, I don't know. Yeah, I don't know about that. Like what is the military worried about coming out of bullets? It's not even just that the military decided that that would be something they would do. You have to believe that all of the people would enact that. All the soldiers. Which I don't, honestly. I just don't believe that. Well then, that looks like a bill. It looks like a man with a beard of the darkness. Yeah, cause it feels weird that you have maybe like a locked off, almost locked off suburb sort of thing with a bunch of people just living their lives. And then the government comes in and collects you up and what unquote takes you to a QZ but then just executes all of you so that they can reduce the overall numbers of the quarter step zombies. It's like, really? That seems like a really strange way of doing that. That involves a lot of extra things to do. I would almost say like, you want as many people as you can find and you want to expand and maintain like the workers to have a growing the quarantine zone, right? You want to build up a city almost eventually. You're not slowly open the door and peer out. Do you just burst open out the front door and then start looking around? Don't you? I don't know. I feel like if they were just here, I wouldn't just, I just wouldn't go outside that day. I should've got cameras to stay safe for a while. I'd just be hanging out. Finally, I can go boating. When are you? He's splurging. He's getting supreme. Why not? I know. I feel like everybody would mind. The home de pot. That's French for the toilet. It was homemade. That home depot is a gold mine. I mean, it's wires, outlets, plugs, lumber that's already pre-cut measured. Ooh, gold mine. All the tools, the last lifetime. Well, the fact that he already had a hidden underground thing going on, it's like he's, he's like the kind of guy that, a person who just, like a prepper? Yeah, prepper, yeah. So yeah, he would know better than most probably how much of he's got to be able to use. He's probably just been dreaming of the day. The kind of person who believes that the apocalypse is always just around the corner in this case. It was. Yeah. If anything, he's, this is element. A rot chicken. So yeah, it's worth mentioning, I guess, that what's interesting about this episode is that as far as I'm aware, we're not getting any more. Joel and Ellie know it's all gonna be about this guy. Well, on this marks, like the first sort of, I guess major deviation is that we, we meet Bill just during Joel and Ellie's main adventure. We never got to see the whole story of Bill. Yeah. I had somebody that I cared about, partner. Somebody I had to look after. And then his relationship with Frank. And obviously we saw what the end of that looked like, but we didn't get to see it play out. So. Yeah, obviously you're referring to the game. Yeah. Cause this is already different, but you can see what pieces they've pulled, or at least how they've come to make this as a story. Well, I mean, we already knew Bill was like hyper prepped. His whole town was filled with traps and everything. Yeah, which is obviously reflected already here. Yeah. Oh, it doesn't get along. What's interesting now, and making me think is like, have we almost done a flip of the convention of the first two episodes being that we have an opening scene to provide some context about another part of the world that relates to the progress of the infection fungal thing. And then we get Joel and Ellie slash the main story. This time we had an opening scene with them. And the rest of the episode is going to be big. About Bill. Yeah, you know, like something that's not them, just almost like a flip. Yeah, I guess to keep you on your toes, you never know what to expect in an episode, even if you played the game. Well, it's TV in it. Cause there ain't a game. So we do different things here. Of course. There's another thing is we don't have to make gameplay segments. Well, it just means you can have these long stretches of no combat. There's one of the challenges of telling a story in a game when you have a bunch of combat. I remember in the game being really fascinated with Bill and Frank's relationship and wanting to know a bit more about it beyond just the letter that was left. So I'm glad that the show is doing this. It feels like an opportunity if done well. Are you armed? No. Why did you take that long to answer? I thought about lying for some reason, but reason didn't come. I was actually thinking about that. Yeah, like, are you armed? It's like, if I say no, maybe they won't think of me as a potential, like I could handle myself sort of thing. Baltimore QZ, it's gone. It hurt. Yeah, it fell in a hole. It's just a bruise. What do you think of the likelihood of getting out of that hole yourself? 100%. You could dig like... With enough time, yeah. Yeah. Dig a little moshers in there. We're gonna deep-proc galactic our way out of this ditch. No, no, dig up, stupid. How are we gonna get out of here? We'll dig our way out. No, no, dig up, stupid. Oh, he's got a little infection shack, I good. How'd you get that? I don't know. None of your goddamn business. You were just laying there on the ground on that guy I killed. God, it was so fucking hard to trust anybody in this environment, you know. Yeah. Boston is that way. You can make it by nightfall. I'm really hungry. I'm letting you go, so go. All right, look, my name's Frank. Oh, yeah? Here's the thing, Frank, then every bum you talk to about it is gonna show up here looking for a free lunch, and this is not an Arby's. Well, Arby's didn't have free lunch was a restaurant. You don't have free lunch at Arby's, that's true. I won't talk about it to any bums or hobos or vagabonds, I promise. I've only got so much cheese whiz. I can't feed everybody. I'll spare it. He has like a silo of cheese whiz. That old classic in it, you'd feel pretty safe probably getting rid of this guy, but then you also feel pretty bad if he's just a guy. I'm gonna go ahead and bet that Bill's not super social, or at least he wasn't. No one names Bill as social. Living on his own for like four years. I left some clothes here for you. Which is enough to make anybody who isn't social sort of. Especially in the midst of a post-apocalypse too. Yeah, like how long can you last entertaining yourself off of like, cause he's secured himself real well. But you'll eventually finish all of your tasks, you know? Yeah. And then you'll be like, now what? B, about someone else is enjoying stuff. I'm trying to think of other stories that have done this, but like, yeah, just enjoying something is one thing, but enjoying it with other people is a whole other thing. Somebody oughta dust. No one touches my dust. You've taken me years to cultivate that fine dust. You put your fingers all over it. This would be probably mind blowing if you've been living in the apocalypse for like, years. Everything tastes good when you're starving. Yeah, but not like. Yeah, but that's like the meat. Yeah, but yeah, it's been four years. I remember what food tastes like. A man who knows to pair rabbit with a bush. It would actually be enough to make you forget briefly that the world descended and there's zombies outside. This is like so unexpectedly awesome. Always keep the gun on in case the rabbits get, you know, jumpy. But rabbits jump all the time, right? Thank you, you're welcome. What year was this, did they say? I guess I'll be going. 2007. Well, this is four years later, so yeah. Because I'm just trying to figure out the ages right now. Like they would, overall they are now. We've got another. But first. 20 years, well, they're 16 years from now. Wow. You know how much these are worth? Currently nothing. Thank you. He's not yours. My mother's could do that. This is you. Imagine you took your job so seriously, like you'll be playing piano, like one episode of one TV show that you'll be a part of. And it's like, I must learn how to do it myself. That's not really necessary. It's like, no, I must. Might just be fundamentally it's like, no, don't do this. You're gonna make me like you. And then I'm gonna have you stay. And I don't want, I don't want that. I want to be on my own. Oh, you definitely get a big old sense that he's like closed off, but simultaneously show. He's taken a lot of actions to show that he clearly wants to do stuff with someone. Yeah. Might call it multi-dimensional. I like this. Like neither one of them want to leave or want the other person to leave, but they don't want to weird the other person out. Yeah, it's all super awkward, but also desperate. And look, it's music that's been able to bind them. I mean, that feels deliberate, right? Like it's food, drink, and music, like soldiers' experiences. Right. I always like it when Nick Hoffman shows up in anything. I mean, fun, which is funny. Well, I think when everybody found out that he was gonna be playing Bill, that was really exciting. It was just like, that seems perfect. We liked him in Fargo. Who's the girl? Girl you're singing about. There is no girl. You like it when your beard touches another beard. He doesn't even know his name, it's true. Bill. Oh, funny, right? Bill and Frank. Bill and Frank, are you? I like this. We need names. Who are they gonna be? I don't know. Frank, Bill. Bob and Joe. Well, hey, it's been a while for both of them, I suppose. Well, it's official. Pianos are gay. What would be the straight instrument? Guitar? Accordions, actually. Electric guitar. I don't have sax for brunches. I have sax for brunches. These are great ones. Not even great ones. If I do this, I'm gonna stay for a few more days. Wait, isn't that just the same thing? That makes you more of... Yeah, that actually makes you seem like more of a whore. You're a frugal whore. Yeah, it sounds like you're not... You're just negotiating, honestly. Yeah, I thought he was gonna go with the direction of, like, this means something to me, as opposed to I'm bottering for more than just a meal here, okay? Like, I'm getting a couple days. I think he also knows that Bill probably doesn't want him to go either. Oh, God, the no-no zone. Oh, fuck you! Well, it's interesting, right? Because Bill comes across quite strong and antisocial, but in an environment like that, he's fucking super vulnerable. Right. This is for us. Who cares what they look like? I do. Oh, we're getting racist. Our home isn't just our ha- You live in a psycho bunker where 9-Eleven was an inside job and the government are all Nazis. The government are all Nazis! Well, yeah, now, but not then. Not then. I am asking for some paint and some gasoline for the lawnmower. That's all. I'll do everything else myself. Oh, he wants to, like, make the place look nice, I guess. Okay, okay. Just tell me why. Paying attention to things. It's how we show love. And I'm fixing up some of the shops. Not the stupid ones, just the wine shop and the furniture store. Wait, what are the stupid ones? And the clothing boutique. Anything that isn't a wine shop or a furniture store. Or a clothing boutique. Or a memory store from the memory store. We're gonna make friends. And we will invite them to visit. There are no friends to be had. I've actually been talking to a nice woman on the radio. What? You what? Yeah, that's a good reaction. Oh, my God. He's just got his pistol. Hey. Oh, you're a paranoid schizophrenic too. I'm not a schizophrenic. But I am paranoid. It's a very nice dovetailing of the plot lines. I like this. Well, can I, how nice this is to have a civilized meal in such a beautiful place? It's been so long. I mean, I still want to thank you even if we don't end up working together. He's got his gun on his face. Yeah. We are working together. I think I haven't had a meal of this caliber in such, I mean, a fine meal at a lot of times. That's all I'm saying. Frank! Ellie asked about Frank and Bill. I think Joel said Frank is nice. So, yeah. I understand. He clicks the hammer back now that it's just one of them too. Again, Mia. I wouldn't be happy either. Would have all the people he could have found on the radio were actually decent people just trying to get by. Uh-huh, what a coincidence. Well, aren't I the lucky one? Books, medicine, machine parts. We can help each other and get that gun out of my face. Prepper or something? Survivalist. We're self-sufficient here. I don't need you or your friend complicating our lives. That fence has got a year on it. Tops. Galvanized wire already started to corrode. If I can get you 10 spools of high-tensile... Yeah, and he writes, it's not only that he's been living in the Upper Spokalus, but that Joel is... He was like a contractor for buildings and stuff. Yeah, he'll know about materials and stuff here. Oh, yeah. Right. It's just the reality of stories like this. We're working together. We'll get you results you wouldn't even expect. I think it's pretty clear that that's what we're going for here, right? It's like Bill's notion of self-sufficiency is kind of like not real. There are certain things that he doesn't know and there are certain things that he can't do for himself and there are certain needs that can't be fulfilled in the absence of other people. No matter how convenient. You might have to cooperate with other people as independent as you think you are. But that just invariably exposes him to new dangers, of course it does. Because maybe Joel and Tess are really nice, but what about the next people? The thing is, and Joel just said, like warning, there will be raiders eventually. I would almost be able to interpret that as a threat. Yeah, that's almost like what I think. But maybe it depends on the conversation and their dynamic. It's just that you can't know, isn't it? Because it's like if Joel asks you to cooperate the nice way and if you don't, you might bring back his friends some day. But then that's just the gets to the illusion of safety that he has here that's, you know, it's like. Yeah. Yeah. Well, how did you get those cars like that? Maybe they found a static brain or something. I think both of their beads have changed color. You traded Joel and Tess when you were gone. Yeah, I love it. We're getting older. Raw berries. See, you wouldn't have this unless you were nice to Joel. Oh, I don't take the the the leaves off. I use them as a little handle. Sometimes too, I go back and forth. I eat the leaves. They're good for you. I'll see them. I am very thankful. I'm sorry. I'm allergic to strawberries. I should have told you. Getting older faster than you. I don't know what it means. We're still here. I was never afraid before you. Because he had nothing to lose. That's a cool line. Yeah, that is a good line. Though, I guess it's particularly sad if you know where this ends. Well, and you kiss me in the strawberry patch. I mean, how can you not as well start to link this? What do you think the point of all this is? The rip it away from him? Well, I mean, the point broadly would be like, yeah, that's kind of the trade off, isn't it? For these like really, what's about to happen here? Well, we got Raiders. What I was going to say is the what do you think Ellie represents in Joel's life? Right? It's a reason someone cares about so much because it seems like what we're gunning for with Bill was that he was surviving, but he wasn't living. Oh, yeah, he was surviving, but he wasn't getting much out of life. He was simply existing, if anything. Yeah, now that's why he's everything's different now because this is actually great for him. Oh, now he has something that he can lose. I sure do hope nothing bad happens to anybody. I just feel like that's going to be what we're supposed to incorporate into thinking about Joel and Ellie. Oh, sure. Which is what I think a lot of side characters are supposed to do, right? And y'all don't keep a rifle in the bedroom? Yeah. No, don't go outside. Now I can see you. I don't even know if Bill's giving this guy like proper instruction of what to do and where to go. Oh, yes, Bill. Now fucking Ellie's still there. Just getting him through it. Oh, he's being covered. You got to. Wow, you're just like standing out in the open. You wouldn't have thought like a doomsday prototype. He'd be like in a bird's nest sort of thing, wouldn't he? Not just standing out there like that. Doesn't he have like a bunker? Does he not have a bulletproof vest at the very least? Yeah, yeah, you think. I guess if you went out there in a rush, but still. Feels really weird to just shoot out in the open like that. Yeah, you're not even gonna shoot from the windows of the house and everything. All right, Bill, you got shot because you were standing in the street. You're gonna work on that next time, buddy. Yeah, that was really dumb, Bill. I don't expect this kind of sloppy maneuver of me from you. If they just wander into the fence, I guess. You ain't dead yet. That could just be a flash wound. You might be all right. Kind of interesting that he would, in desperate moments, tell him to go to Joel. That must mean that he believes that Joel is the kind of person that would take care of people. Yeah. Oh, they've definitely gone on now, 2023. Santa? Maybe kind of a young Santa. It looks like Jordan Peterson from that angle. Did you clean your room? They gave Nick Hoffman loads of, are they called liver spots? The spots you get when you get older? Yeah, sorry. I think they may have given him a little too many. I call them wisdom speckles. I'm not fighting about it. Back in bed. I promise you I'm gonna stay up. Why? Because this is my last day. What if we find a doctor? What if someone shows up who can help? Who's coming, Bill, the door-to-door MRI salesman? I'm not gonna give you the, every day was a wonderful gift from God's speech. I've had a lot of bad days. I've had bad days with you, too. Just give me one more good day, then you will crush all of these up. Put them in my wine. I will drink it. I can't. Well, I don't really have commentary, Bill. It's just sad. Yeah, I'm just, I'm just watching. It's very sad. Yeah, I have commentary. That's an ugly shirt. Some, obviously it's the realities of stuff of the shit like this. I was in real life, but this would totally happen in post-apocalyptic places with so much less ability to circumvent disease. Well, just, yeah, he got sick, you know? And there was nothing that could be done about it. What is the last of us as a game? There's point all about, isn't it? Like, it's worth hanging on to what remains of the best of experiences we can have with each other, as opposed to desperately clinging to just exist. Yeah, yeah. That's what it felt like by the time you hit the end of the game, right? Like, Bill was like, yeah, Ellie's worth everything. And I imagine that's what's being reflected here. Oh, let's see what we're doing here. It's what the first meeting between these two and the first dinner, and this is the last, yeah, with the wine. I think it's hard to portray like a whole, what, two decade long relationship in just 40 minutes-ish. Yeah. Good zigzag. They get along, they fight. One's life is in danger, and then it's flipped now. Yeah, it feels like they covered all of the necessary beats to get to this point. Yeah, all the things that a normal relationship has, you know? Ha, ha, ha. Enough to kill a horse. I'm satisfied. And you were my purpose. Oh, it should be furious. It's incredibly romantic. That is a big deviation from the game. I was watching this episode, wondering if they were gonna do this. Well, so the thing about it is that felt appropriate considering the story they've been telling. Given all the context that we had, yeah, this does seem like, this seems like something that would happen. Oh. There was a lot of trust given him the code. I quite like that that's a sign that something's very wrong. Yep. It's from Bill. Who was this? So they're dead. You wanna take anything you need? The bunker code is the same as the gate code, but in reverse. But still, it's like we're friends. Almost. And I respect you. I used to hate the world, and I was happy when everyone died. I saved him. Yep, there you go. That's why men like you and me are here. We have a job to do. And God help any motherfuckers who stand in our way. I leave you all of my weapons and equipment. Use them to keep. Oh, I'd be tasked when I stay here. Yeah, the game is, his portion is all about getting a car in working order, right? Yes, and it looks just like this car as well. They have to go to the school to get the battery, I think. And then shit tons of infected arrive. And that was the reveal of the bloater as a boss. So I think people might have been disappointed like the no bloater reveal yet. But that's probably, you know, give it time. You'll get your bloater, probably. Listen, about Tess. Hey, look, about Tess, I don't even know what. Here's how this thing's gonna play out. If I'm taking you with me, there's some rules you gotta follow. Rule one, you don't bring up Tess, ever. You don't bring up Tess, ever. Matter of fact, we can just keep our histories to ourselves. Matter of fact, we can just keep our histories to ourselves. Rule two, you don't tell anyone about your condition. Secondly, don't tell anybody about your condition. They'll think you're crazy, they'll try to kill you. They see that bite mark? They won't think it through, they'll just shoot you. Rule three, you do what I say when I say it. And lastly, you do what I say when I say it. We clear? We clear. Yes. Repeat it. What you say goes. Sure. Repeat it. What you say goes. Good. Yeah, they got some stalking up to do. This guy was a genius. I guess this is a good stash, right, as opposed to take everything from here. Grab some cans from over there. Nothing dented or swollen. Dude. No. Fucking with clocks. The odds are pretty high. She saves it with the gun. Yes. He's like, where did you get that? I'll do the payoff right, they'll do the one from the game. Yeah. It's your first time. It's like a spaceship. I'm almost like a piece of shit. I wonder what it's like to approach a car without any context of it. I guess it would be pretty interesting. Yeah. Is it weird that I think sometimes when I'm driving, like what if like in a time machine like George Washington or something was in my car and I had to explain to him not to panic on the road because everyone stays in the lines. He's just like, ah, you're like, no, no, no, no. No, no, no, it's fine. We all stand in the lines. It's great. There's rules. This has been a run, has been a run, stated. No, I don't know who won the run, stated. That is actually before my time. That is a winner, though. Better than nothing. That'll be the bedroom window then. Yeah. That was a pretty great episode. Yeah, it was really nice. I really like that. Good. I knew exactly what its goal was and achieved it. Yeah, it seems like it did. Well, it's just a great example of like how to tell a very complete story in a single episode of television to tell a complete story with a theme that was set up and paid off and reinforced and ties into the broader theme of the, well, presumably will be the broader theme of the show if the game is any indication. Yeah, and it's just, they chose a really good character from the game to use for this story because they managed to keep a lot of his elements. Obviously, he stripped away a couple, but he doesn't get to interact with... Well, the role that he plays in the story is different, very different from the role that he played in the game. In the game, it was much more of an active role in the main plot, whereas here it's much more of a thematic role. Yeah, what he passes on in terms of support and help to Joel is much more, it's done in the form of that message, right? Like, I feel like... Planting the seed for a later character choice. And I imagine that those will be consistently reinforced with, like, when he's with Tommy, Henry, and Sam. I imagine that all of those stories will sort of be, you know, building up that core motivation. Joel's gonna feel like he failed with Tess to some degree now, and it's like, Ellie is his second go-around, but in the same way, obviously, the... Well, right, kind of. Well, that's what it all comes down to. He's supposed to protect these people, and if they die, that means he's fucked up. They didn't have him cry after reading it, but if you can tell, he's struggling. Pretty upset, yeah. Especially because he probably fucking liked Frank and Bill, after knowing them for that long. Like, when he's just like, they're dead, and he's just sort of staring, having to deal with this, everyone keeps fucking dying. I think in the games, he did serve a thematic purpose there as well. The theme is different. Obviously, he served the obvious function of, like, providing the car battery, and also having, like, the school set piece and the bloater boss fight, but he also represented to Joel on his journey what you can turn into if you wall yourself off completely. Once upon a time, I had somebody that I cared about, partner, somebody I had to look after, and in this world, that sort of shit's good for one thing, getting you killed. So you know what it did? Why isn't it fucked up? I realize it's got to be just me. Yeah, I don't mean to certainly don't mean to downplay the role that he played. I guess it's more so that in this one, when you strip so much of that away, it just lays bare, like, that this case is very much a thematic sort of story because it doesn't tie directly into helping Joel and Ellie on their quest really at all. Whereas in the game, it was kind of, yeah, it was doing two things at once. It had the plot stuff, but then it also had, this is Bill, these are his outcomes, and Joel has to sort of consider those outcomes and maybe think about whether he wants, you know, what he could do to avoid the situation that Bill finds himself in, totally alone, better, miserable. Yeah, and super secure, but like, just is that worth it when you've got it? He's existing, right? He's existing. Whereas what we saw here was Bill was existing and then he was living, and he got a lot out of that relationship. And the ending, of course, as well, because in the game, Frank disappears and then he finds out what actually happened to him and it's like, that's something that he has to deal with, whereas here it's a very different story in that regard. But there's obviously inspiration. They've taken elements, moved things around. Yeah, well, they've created something pretty new with this story, but at the same time, you can see how they got it from the game. And I was pretty impressed with the work that they did for those two characters, considering that it was just one episode. I feel like you get to see that whole relationship sort of play out even though you're only really seeing flash points of like big significant moments. It feels like a relationship that lasted 16 years there by the end, like that felt like a relationship that had matured and sort of endured for many, many years. Yeah, it's very believable. It's very, very easy to buy. Joy, because obviously we can tell all kinds of different stories, could have gone hideously wrong, right, and that Frank was just an asshole and took everything from him or killed him or whatever, but it's just a genuine sort of anti-social closed off man who thought the whole world may end and hates the government is thriving in this environment almost, but he doesn't have everything. Yeah, and then this one person comes into his life and totally and completely enriches it. Well, and they have that scene, right? This guy, Bill might even describe this guy as useless as in like his talents are almost in the aesthetic and he cares about him. He's aware of music, but what is his pragmatic use in this environment? It's like we didn't see a huge amount of it to the point where Bill says immediately when he thinks he's dying, you got to get Joel because Joel can take care of you because without you, like me to look after you, how long will you really last? Because obviously he was dying when he found him, but he values him more than anything. Well, yeah, because we saw that even in him allowing, it's like, you know, he was trying to min max, right? Bill's like, well, yeah, but you know, this doesn't serve any clear utility. So why would we do this? Whereas, you know, Frank is more like, well, in terms of rejuvenating the house and everything, it's like, what is the utility? It's like, I guess there's no strict utility, but it makes you happier. So, you know, like it might as well, right? It's kind of like, that's what the two compliment each other very well. Well, they created a little paradise for themselves in hell. Yeah. Yes. And I like that about it. I really liked that relationship that you had. And that kind of is summed up by like the last shot where it like tracks into the bedroom and then you focus racked from the outside to the inside in the little perfect home that they built for themselves. And it represents like a life lived, loved and lost. Yeah. They have a clear zigzag pattern as well that goes into the distance. I can imagine people being disappointed who are fans of the games who wanted the punished bill phase where like he's still alive when Joel and Ellie come around. Yeah. Like if it wasn't for the line where he put the pills in the bottle, enough to kill a horse. It's like, that's them, like the writers telling the audience like, oh, he's dead after this, okay? If it wasn't for that, I was kind of half expecting Bill to like show up at the very end and be like, the hell are you doing in my house? You know, like, and then the next episode would be like the adventures with Bill before you get to see him crazy, like unhinged and what this losing Frank has done to him. Like he's driven him a bit. You could tell that story. I think you could. I guess by the time it was him, like Frank old and sick, there was a thought in the back of my head of, you know, you could deviate from the games here. Like you could do something different. And I was sort of, the longer time went on the more I was thinking, I think you are, I think you're about to deviate here. And I think that it is a choice that's totally legitimate. Yeah, I think it works. This is a different thematic route of, because the key that makes this work, I think, is like you pointed out, Molly, the line in the letter. I saved someone who was worth saving, right? And then that's making him- And of course, the subtext is that Frank saved him as well, you know? Like, yeah, he saved somebody's life because Frank really saved him. Dylan Ellie is what's going to be- Pretty much, yeah. Through saving Ellie Joel, basically sort of rediscovered this ability to care for others and something that he lost, you know, somewhere along the way. Right. It's a funny thing, right? But Frank reaching out and talking to Tess is incredibly risky. You know, it leads to them having that relationship. They exchange supplies back and forth. And then to the point where if Bill thinks he's going to die, he has someone that he can, you know, get Frank to sort of thing, which, and he has someone he cares about. Yet he leaves Joel and Tess all of his stuff. It's like, it was worthwhile, but he's just that careful, that secluded almost, even though you're getting lots of evidence that you don't have to be. Yeah. And it makes sense that he decided to go with him, you know, because it's like, what am I sticking around for after this? Like, if you're gone, I know there's nothing. Like, I know what's waiting for me after this. And there's just days and days. Going back to his old life, isn't it? Yeah. Good morning. And it's made me think like, well, in the game he stuck around, but then I remember in the game, he doesn't know he Frank died until he finds him. Yeah. Because he was bitter about it. He thought Frank abandoned them. Right, yeah. They find him dead. Yeah, which again, I feel like you can't have that one in this when you've built it this way. Frank wouldn't abandon Bill with the way that these two are. Like I was saying before, I remember in the games being really interested in this relationship and wanting to know more. And so the show decided to do that with its unique format, which I think is a good idea. And if you're going to do that, then this is the route that makes sense. Is to just let that life play out. And then it makes sense for, it wouldn't make sense if you were to just stick around, I don't think. I like the story in and of itself. And then I just like how much it, what it has to say about what I assume will be the season overall, but certainly Joel and Ellie and Joel and Sarah and Joel and Tess is the reality of, I quite like the Bill sees a lot of himself in Joel, which is both a good thing and bad thing. Yes. Yeah. Because I don't think in any of that montage we saw what he does for fun. We just saw all of the pragmatic stuff, which I think is kind of the point. This is fun for him, but as soon as it runs out, then what? Meanwhile, when you have someone, you know, every single day is a new experience. The discussion I've seen around this episode is the, for one, boring as a criticism. Yeah, I guess I'm not surprised that people call it boring, but it's not. Makes sense. But I don't find it boring. Yeah, I get it. I don't find it boring at all. I didn't think it was boring at all. I wanted to see what was going to happen. And it seems deliberate and purposeful. And I'm really glad that we got to see an episode where you're kind of reminded those things do still get made actually. I think it's neat to just have our main characters be guest characters in this episode. I quite like the scenes with Joel and Bill. And maybe there is a sense in my head as like it would have been cool to have had more for a maybe punished Bill with Joel and Ellie. All the dialogue you get with that is now not possible. Who the fuck is this punk? And what's she doing here? I am none of your goddamn business. And we're here because you owe Joel some favors. And you can start by taking these off. I owe Joel some favors or some kind of joke. Yes, you're Joel. Go ahead, take my cards. Take all my food too while you're at it. By the looks of it, you could lose some of that food. Listen to me, you little shit. No, fuck you, you hank. Hey, when I said you, we walked down a steps. What'd I say? I'm just fixing your stupid pile. Don't touch. Well, I suppose that is a different story that can be told. There are so many that can be told. So many lines that could have come out. So many different directions you can take. I just, I think sometimes people will just assume the alternative would have been way better instead of sort of appreciating this for what it is and what they did. There's pros to both methods. I remember in the game, I really like the last exchange with Bill. It's like, We square. We're square. And get the fuck out of my town. And then that's the end. And Joel's just like nods, he understands, because there's like shit between them from the past. But it's like, whatever, water under the bridge. And then they'll never see each other again after that. I like the bittersweet. But this, it works. The human drama was really well executed. It's a good little story, really well acted. Yeah. I thought the acting was terrific. The guy, Ron Swanson, Parks and Rec guy, his performance was great. And it's evidence to me, yeah, Craig Mason has figured out the secret of casting comedians for shit like this. Funny guys, they just understand the role. They understand grief. Like a familiarity with grief could be that a lot of jokes are drawn from pointing out just things that suck about life, but in a format that we can all sort of just laugh at it instead of be depressed or anything. Yeah, that's what I mean. There's sort of a foundation of pain when you get like a belly laugh off a really funny joke. Not all the time, but I find the best comedians, you know, like Richard Pryor would joke about his personal life and go into really dark shit and he would extract like comedy out of it. That comedy can speak to the core of the human experience and that includes tragedy and sadness. The like in order to be great familiarity and understanding of that seems like almost a prerequisite and maybe that's just, you can translate that to a dramatic performance in a way that is almost surprisingly adept because people sometimes don't think of comedy as like deeply tragic. Right, yeah. And so I think good comedians, they are aware of that, but they don't really have an opportunity to utilize it on the stage because you don't want to make people sad. But then when it comes time to act out a sad scene in a show like this, it's very easy for them to channel into that and finally utilize it. And to explain why you don't say so well. Absolutely, yeah. Well, even like as well, it just, it feels a little bit more vibrant than your average storytelling as well. Just for example, are you armed and in a gap of about four seconds, whatever, and he goes, no. He just goes, why'd you take so long to say no? Like, it just feels like something normal you would probably point out. And then of course, him moving into like, well, because I don't know, it felt like something maybe I should lie about, but I don't know why I thought that. I don't know. It's like, yeah, it's an incredibly high stress situation. He thinks he's gonna be dead anyway. I don't know, there's just a lot of real stuff in this that keeps me bound to it. I quite like it all seems genuine. It's well written, yeah. And the relationship felt genuine. It didn't feel like it was pandering at all. Like it was all really like I bought it. Yeah, acting was superb. It was, yeah. I bought all of it, 100%. Everyone did a great job. Like as much as all of that is true. Unfortunately, I feel like this is the, cause I've already seen pieces of it, but you already know people are gonna take issue with this because of the fact that it's a gay couple for a whole episode. Well, yeah. I, I, whatever. It doesn't feel like, if that's something you're gonna get in the way of you appreciating some great storytelling, I don't know, like. Doesn't, like, I don't know. It just feels like a neat idea that you have a guy who is looking for companionship, but has created all of the walls around him to essentially prevent all of that. Like, yeah. It feels interesting as well, considering that again, the apocalypse here began in 2003 and they would have met, and almost, you know, it's kind of like the world hits pause, right? Wherever it was at. Cause you see that a lot, right? Cars are all early 2000s. Yeah, that Mortal Kombat to, I mean, Mortal Kombat was obviously in the 90s, but you know, like references and media and stuff kind of comes to an end there. But I mean, even then, right? The context of their relationship in 2003, it's like, well, yeah. I mean, there weren't a lot of, like it feels, you know, the fact that they get married at the end, right? It's like, well, you're in a world where like whatever rules previously existed about saying whether or not you're allowed to do that doesn't exist anymore. It just makes me wonder if that's something that kind of is like an element that can be leveraged is knowing sort of when the world hit pause for them and like how much that might have influenced sort of bills, you know, closed off nature, like that at that time it might not have been as easy for him to sort of find love. Yeah, it's just a thought I'm having given that it would have been, you know, 2006, seven when they met. And to wait until the, after the fungal zombie apocalypse to be able to get married. To be able to live, yeah, to be able to live like honestly and fully, right? It's kind of something to think about. I just go as far as saying there's no reason to desperately make the game and the show fight on this one. Like, I don't. Yeah, they're just so distinctly, just two different concepts that are played out and they both are done really well. It's, it feels to me like what they are doing. And I imagine it will continue as the show goes on is there were moments in the game that didn't get a whole lot of time that can get more time because of the format that they have. Yeah, it's a show. You don't have gameplay to sort of get in the way of that. Well, I don't want to say it like getting because it almost feels like what they said about Halo, right? Like I don't want to, video games, it's not that there's limitations. It's that there's different challenges that you have to deal with when telling a story. When you're making a video game where the predominant, you know, thing that you do in gameplay is combat. It's just something you have to think about when you're like writing that story is we need this to lead into combat and we need this to be something that can organically emerge out of like a combat section or, you know, exploration, right? The balancing act. There's not really a lot of time in the last of us to do a story like in the game, to do that story that we just saw there. It just seems like it wouldn't quite fit. It would probably be a section that would be not very fun to play because it wouldn't be a whole lot of like engaging mechanics to grapple with. And so it's like a story that can be told in this medium. And it's like, yeah, that's cool that you can tell that story and you can still essentially have it lead into where the game was anyway of Joel and Ellie go there, they get the car and then they move on. It's just that the way that Bill, you know, interacts with them or like feeds into their story is just different now because it's, you know, it's adaptation, right? This is an interesting adaptation in that it feels like they're very thoughtfully deviated from the source material rather than looking at what the source material wasn't going. Yeah, I mean, that was all right for like the dumb shooting game, but like we're like television writers, we're going to like, we're going to go for a real amazing story here with Halo the television show. Yeah, it doesn't take what the games were and shit all over it. It doesn't exist in spite of the games. Absolutely not. It's an extension of them. It's an alternate telling of the games. And I feel like it's reflected in a lot of the choices that like the fact that they brought the original composer along, right? Like the fact that they brought him along to create the music for the show, it just feels like it's still like the last of us. It still feels like it's part of this, I say franchise, right? It includes one game that I don't like at all. But like it feels like a appropriate adjacent story in a sense to what was there in the game. It has nods to the game. It doesn't say anything that's like, games aren't those dumb or we've matured past that or we're a higher form of storytelling. I mean, just the fact that like in this that you mentioned that the car was the same kind of car. I'm like, well, that means you have to, they had to put work and effort into finding the right shit. Making sure it's the right color. Joel's got the green plaid shirt. Ellie's got like the red shirt with the like gray brown undershirt. There's a lot of instances where it seems like they're like, we know what the games look like. I'm gonna find ways to try and parallel. Like even the window, right? It kind of looks like the window on the menu screen not peeled up and with like, green overcoming every single thing. But it's kind of like similar framing. Yeah, it's like a happy version of that. It's a happy window, bittersweet. Yeah, it was a life well lived as far as they were concerned. Oh yeah, absolutely. It is, I don't know, it's nice to see that the people who made this show like the writers clearly like got together and they didn't just come up with shit and throw it at the screen and then hope that the big budget or the love of the game would carry them through. Seems like they really do wanna do some stuff here. They really wanna write some characters and sequences and I appreciate that immensely. Well, what do you think about the idea that people don't like this because it is filler? I think that only comes from a mindset who think that the only thing that can be worthwhile to watch is a progression of plot as it relates to a specific element of what they wanna see. Because this was essentially a story that had a beginning, a middle and an end that is going to assist other characters in fulfilling their own plot lines. And at that point, if you don't like that then my question is why are you watching? What is actually the purpose? Is the progression of a plot not the means to an end to communicate what characters are like and how they behave, moral lessons and themes? Is it all just, are you so plot focused? You forget kind of that plot can be a vehicle to explore other things that are arguably more like meaningful and emotional? Seems like they might be sort of losing the force for the trees here. There's a lot I think to gain even with the nuts and bolts like, oh, did we get plot progression? I was like, well, they made it to Bill's. We got a history with who Bill is and what he means to Joel and Tess. And then they got a bunch of resources and we've developed a little bit more of Ellie and Joel's relationship. And he set ground rules now for how they're gonna do things going forward. They have a car, they have extra supplies. They're moving on. And you could be like, well, yeah, but that's not worth an hour and 15 minutes. And I'd be like, oh, well that's, I'm just saying that it's not filler. If you go from the previous episode to the next episode, you will have missed out a huge chunk of what happened. How the fuck do they have a car? We're in, of course, the payoff of, you know, Ellie's gun, where the hell did she get that? Yeah, like we've done that ups and there's stuff going on with Joel and Ellie here. Yeah. But as you just put it, I feel like it's impossible to argue in case that there was a full story in this one episode. I'm not sure how filler is even identified anymore, but then you have to get into the reality of like, is filler always bad? Yep. I mean, remember by that logic, a lot of like virtually all of like Star Trek and all sorts of other shows were filler. There wasn't an overarching plot. It's a journey not its destination. There are plenty of episodes of a lot of television that is just, maybe House isn't a great example for the season previewing season finale of House. That's like where a lot of the story for the season, you could say like the big stuff happens. Right. Supernatural season one, I'm pretty sure you can watch episode like one, 15 and 24 or something. And you've got the full story of the season. A lot of television was, a lot of TV shows weren't very serialized at all. There'd be like a very loose ongoing story, but otherwise it was just- Yeah, it might pop up here in the air. Yeah. It's just recurring characters maybe. Well, they're trying to crack just getting a formula that people enjoy watching and can watch out of order. That's what the world was back in the day when you caught things. Yeah, the episode on TV was the episode on TV. So that's the one you're watching. And that's, it's a format that's still reflected in, you know, like those types of shows now, like NCIS probably still has that same format. But then you got, you know, now we're in the era of streaming and the era of streaming seems to have really brought to the forefront stuff that used to just exclusively be like HBO shows. Yeah, long, really long movies, essentially. If what they mean is it's like empty calories and they're not getting anything out of it, that would be, I think, your mistaken calling it filler at that point. Cause that could still be valid, it's just that- Also in this episode, empty calories, nah. Obviously, but at least- Even the analogy is odd as if you don't, you can't enjoy and cherish and savor things if they don't have calories in them. Yeah, what did we learn from this episode? If not, that that's not the way that it should be. That was what Frank was trying to tell Pintage Phil. I think one of the mistakes being made in regard to the filler topic is that if Joel and Ellie aren't in the scene, it's filler. Yeah, yeah. It has to be specifically hyper-focused on these two characters right now. And if they're not included- I got more Joel and Ellie than I was expecting from how many people- I wasn't expecting as much Joel and Ellie. Yeah. You got a decent chunk of them at the end. And I mean, honestly, one of my favorite moments is Joel realizing that Bill basically said, make sure to look after Tass. Yeah. Yeah. That sucks for him. Even if the letter wasn't there and they just went to the house and said, oh, there's a truck, cool. Like if they just found the keys and then they just left. It would be weaker storytelling, but I would still consider that Bill's story being told in this universe worthwhile. Like I think it was worth the investment of time. I think it's gonna match the whole life play up. This IP is trying to make, right? It's like the last of us, like all people- Yeah, exactly. What they've lost, what they've lived, what they've- Well, and the last of what remains of them is people, right? The last of the- Yeah, like a more literal, the few numbers that remain of human beings, but also what remains of their humanity. Yes, that's right. We're all upset. We're so upset about the last of us two, okay? But like, you're as good as the latest thing you've made, right? And Neil Druckman is significantly involved in this. Everyone keeps talking about how it's going to go bad, though. It's like, well, should we call that out when it happens? I guess when it happens, if it happens we'll call it out, but until then- The more good at- I don't know, man, though. Three episodes in, they've been pretty strong. This is probably the best. In fact, no, I'd say this is the best one of the three. I would say so too, yeah. I don't know, man. How many more good episodes do you have to get before you start to get on-site a little bit, you know? I'm just like, yeah, we do a lot so far. How many bad ones does it take till everyone goes, ooh. Well, I mean, you know, it can only change how- I mean, guys, also the Dragon had a bad episode, but that season was great. It did have a bad episode and that's true, yeah. You know, I take what you can get, man. Because with this show, so far so good is basically where I'm at. Yeah, and I'll be happy to see another one. You know, keep going. I'm still interested. I don't know what happens next, but I'd be curious to see how you adapt it. I'm interested to see how it plays out, yeah. Yeah. For as much as it's like, yeah, there's a great framework. It's like, well, yeah, but you still got to have all of the talent, you know, directed in service of leveraging it and utilizing it. And so far, yeah, it's been, like, acting's been great. The music's been great. The production design has been phenomenal. It has been very impressive. This show is so goddamn tangible and the world is so lived in. Oh, yeah, very believable. You don't doubt for a second that this is a real place with real people. It's almost distracting with how not distracting it is, if that makes sense. Yeah, I totally got what you made, yeah. Well, it's authentic. I remember reading a bit about the production design approach. Craig was saying he has a rule with his sets, is that you set it up, destroy it, and then set it up again. Make it look like an apocalypse happened. And then you kind of maybe over-design it a little bit, maybe, as opposed to, like, actually having a real set and then, like, destroying it in a realistic way, and then decorating it with, like, foliage and, like, fungal growth or whatever. And you have all sorts of places that are just run down and derelict anyway. There's all sorts of places that are just out there that have been abandoned and they've fallen apart naturally. Yeah. I think this has done a good job as well, just with their tests and this almost message from Bill that we'll be getting all the motivation we need to make Joel do some crazy shit in favor of Ellie. Yeah. Specifically when we get to the Cannibals plotline, you know? Because I think one of the lines from Bill is, like, God help any motherfucker that stands in our way when we have someone to protect. Yeah. Yeah, that's the thing for me. I'll be like, I'm looking forward to see how all this will pay off. I wonder how well they'll do it. I think that was a really solid episode. I give it a big old thumb up the bum. Yes, good. I, too, give it a thumb up the bum. I would even say two thumbs up the bum. Why not? Yeah, maybe even different bums. I don't know. Fair mental. All right, well, thanks for listening, everybody. Cool hat, yeah. We'll see you for the next one. That's right, boy. See you later, everybody. Bye. The fence. The fence will kill the rest of them. Watcha bring me?