 City Council special session with beginning with the school board to order and it's Wednesday August 15th 2018 we'll begin with the Pledge of Allegiance. Okay would you want to start? I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for which it stands one nation under God indivisible with liberty and justice for all. The second item is instructions on exiting the building in case of an emergency. In case of an emergency everybody please proceed out of one of these two doors on the sides of the building and please go out into the parking lot and gather there. If that exit is blocked please go back out through the lobby out the main entrance around the corner and back to the parking lot. Tom Hubbard and I, wherever Tom is, Tom and I will be responsible for making sure the building is clear so do not hesitate. Item three agenda review. Are there any additions, deletions or changes in order of agenda item? We've got a warrant. We have a warrant that we need to add. We would like to put under other business. Okay. Okay seeing no objection we'll add the warrant under item seven. Okay moving on a joint meeting with the school board to consider and possibly approve an agreement for the exchange of rights and interests in real property. Who's going to lead off with that? Well I think an update for the school board about the status of your discussions. Okay. So we met Monday and had a really good, we had a special meeting, a good conversation with the architects with Alana and Steve, what is his name Steve? John Stetson. You're Steve, John Stetson who is the, he's from Engelberg Construction. He's going to be in charge of building the thing, right? Okay. And they shared with us their best I guess most recent recommendation for the form and the shape as well as the cost. And it was considerably higher than we had anticipated. It was $22.5 million. So we weren't ready to say great, let's go for it. We had a good discussion with lots of input from the public as well as the council members from their conversations with the public and their own questions and concerns and thoughts. And we asked them to sharpen their pencils. They went through a series of items that we could consider to cut that would skinny down the price. But even some of those were hard for the council to say oh that's a great idea to not have a skylight or we managed to agree on a few of them but not all of them. And I think they totaled like 800,000 to a million dollars. And that still in our minds is potentially a little high. So we asked them to go back to the drawing board and come to us with some numbers about not that anyone endorsed this but what would it cost if we just did a library? Because some of the costs as I understand were increased. Our original number was like 15 million and then it was 17 million and then it crept up to 19 million. And once they really did do diligence on the actual property and the soil on that piece of property, they learned that they needed considerably I guess deeper and fatter and more expensive, more concrete footings to hold up the building. And that added between 1 and 2 million dollars I think to the cost or something. It added 1.5, that's between 1 and 2. And then there were some other cost drivers that we didn't anticipate. So one of the things that we also talked about is is it possible to reduce the footprint so that there actually isn't a need for a land swap with you? Because the way the building is situated or the way it's designed now, it really goes right to the edges. And we need that extra property both for the utility lines and sewer and water but also for parking. But we wanted them to look at a configuration as a possibility. And the other issue that really influences our conversation with you is to have a better understanding of how interested and firm you are about really wanting to have this building in the future. To use as your administrative offices. If that really isn't an absolute that we might want to see if we can make the building smaller and not have to have the land swap or any agreement about giving you this building. And I don't know if you're ready to share with us kind of where your thinking is, how firm that interest is or need. I don't know where the need is. I mean you have wants and what a good opportunity. That sounds great and the price is right ten bucks. But do you really need it enough to have us continue and go back to the drawing board and keep the footprint we have. Have that land swap and find other ways to make the project more affordable or say this is what it costs and take it to the voters in some number. And it's an up and down vote and then we can go back to square one. Is that summarized? It's for discussion purposes. Yeah, we're truly trying to answer questions that we've heard in the community. Questions about what everything costs and if we thought about it in a modular kind of way, why do we need three different things? Why not two? Why not one? And so that's what led to just the discussion of well, if we do that, we have this MOU and then we need this building. So it's really just to see what options we have before us. Without us, we haven't wedded to any option. Right. We just simply wanted to, I think, also just remembering what I said. Just to present a case to the community, it would make the case stronger if we go with the full build out that this would really serve your purposes. Now I talked to constituents with children in the schools and they think you do need this building. They think you need administrative space. But some people might not feel that way if they don't have schools and their children. So I think it's children in the schools. Children in the schools. Right. And so it's just having you articulate that. Right. Am I kind of recapitulating? Yeah, we haven't come down on any position. It's just trying to get those questions answered and understand how it may or may not interact with what you are thinking or believing to be appropriate from the school board perspective. Can I just clarify this one thing real quick before you. You said that this would be a deal as far as it would cost us $10. Actually, it's the use of one acre of land in prime real estate. So it's really not paying just $10 for this. It's part of the quid pro quo for actually making one full, nearly one acre of land there available just to clarify the record. Right. It's not going to be exchanged. It's not worth. We're not selling. Right. Right. Depending on what, if you all really need this space, that influences the other piece of land because we want the schools to be as good as they can possibly be as well. And if this really facilitates that going into the future, that influences our final decisions over there. Really, what triggered the lengthy discussion, of course, was the fact that the price has worked its way up significantly for reasons such as the soils and other things, as Helen said. I think our initial intent and probably still our intent and thought is to build what we initially wanted to build. But given the price situation, we started to look at what if, what if, what if. And so all those what ifs are on the table. And so it becomes what if the schools really don't need or want this property? Well, what would that mean? But if you really do, that I think is important for us to know so that okay, we know that piece is solid. And so let's figure out how we can make the community center work. Okay. Well, we've got a meeting scheduled, a regular meeting at seven. And on our agenda for action is to consider a meeting warning for a November vote. So all of the work that has been done to date by our staff, our administration and board members was to get to a definitive MOU. So it sounds like to me, I mean the purpose of a very brief timeframe, which ends in about three minutes. Tonight was really to have the, each of the representative music municipal bodies kind of acknowledge that we were moving forward. So it sounds to me like the city has a little bit more exploratory work to do based on some of the initial figures you got on costing. And it sounds like there's a question based on the lead time for a November ballot item that that would be off the table. Yeah. No, not necessarily. I mean, I think there's still some time. We also might consider having it as a ballot item in March and not November if, if, or split it if we needed time or have it like the penny for paths, a separate city ballot, not on the federal, not federal, not on the state ballot. And that gives us a month, a month more time to figure that out. So there's, of course, pluses and minuses about all of those things, all of those choices, putting it off for. Yeah. And I appreciate the, it's difficult to, for any of us to convey fully what, you know, was going through, you know, all of our minds as we were talking on Monday, but we're not throwing the MOU up in the air. I think what I heard, you know, this board say is they just wanted to have the school board clearly, it's in the MOU, but just to have you say it. Yes, we are interested in using this space for administrative offices. I think that's all we're looking for. Right. Yeah. That it's important in your long-term planning that this is a pretty significant component. And it's in the MOU. So it's, it's simply, I think. It's like maybe the, the better way to move forward is you pursue more definitive, the direction you've given your firm on the design options that perhaps we consider amending our agenda, our regular meeting really to extend the MOU. So there's an opportunity for, for a more thorough review of that. And I think the board's been clear about, you know, what the, what the trade-offs are and what the, you know, what the benefits are from a district standpoint. But it seems premature to, to be talking about something that's in the MOU document if that's not been finalized by the council at this point. What, I go ahead. So I have two fears. As I go to the people to make an argument for this proposal and really to the school district is I would be concerned going forward into the November ballot that I couldn't say to the voters with a straight face that I've heard from the school board that they want this building and that they would use this building for your administrative purposes. I'm trying to gauge from the school board are you most supportive of this current MOU because of the site work and the additional parking and the building is just because we're not going to be using it anymore. My other part of that fear would be three years, four years, five years from now. If we had excess space, if this was just underutilized, I feel like we would have neglected our long-term planning or not have been thorough enough to really consider all the pros and cons. The last piece just for you to ponder that came up on Monday night school related is the design has a north facing terrace and we just wanted to know if that had risen into any discussion points on that point. I think all of this is covered in the MOU and I don't know Helen if the council has had an opportunity to review it in depth, but I know the board called a special meeting on Monday to review this. I guess I would say the level of specificity that you're indicating to me is all in that MOU and it would be very difficult to, that's not what we came prepared to discuss at this meeting. So I would just recommend reviewing that if you have any additional questions. I'd point you toward David or Helen to myself and we can certainly expand on that. Well I think as Megan said we're not, I mean I think we understand the MOU and I think we weren't certain how committed you were to that. If it really was an important part of your long-term strategy to have this space. I mean as Elizabeth said I mean we put a fair amount of work and we've had significant amount of conversation about the benefit that this would be. And I think it is articulated in the MOU and it's not been something that the board has entered into without due diligence. Obviously we wouldn't be here if it wasn't, we wouldn't be at this place tonight with the way it was warned if the board was not in favor. So your answer is yes, you're really supportive of that. That's right, now I think in support of the board as we move forward, I mean we also have a very active master planning and visioning process that's going. And so I think we're both kind of watching and working collaboratively as we move forward with master planning. Recognizing the areas that are discrepant in our district whether it's our high school facility or middle school facility etc. And how that all fits in while at the same time you guys are moving forward. Again this to be clear, this was a lot of work done by the board to get to where we are with a lot of conversation which currently has been supported. That's helpful, I think. I think that's what we're going for and that our challenge as a city council to include what we feel it needs to include. So that the residents of South Burlington will say yeah, this is a great idea. And if anything over the next couple of few weeks pops up that says this really is going to be a major problem, well then we'll let you know as soon as we know. But I'm guessing we're not going to discover that. This is my personal opinion. I think we're going to go forward and find a way to make the building affordable. And based on land use as you all have articulated in the MOU which I think is quite clear. And I would say more than affordable. I think our job is to advocate for this ballot item, right? And we're faced with lots of questions and so we need just to have it on the record. And not only in a written MOU but also the verbal support. And we can take that back to the voters. And our job is advocates for any ballot item and really say yes. It's been said in a public forum and because let's say we go ahead with the $22 million. That's going to be something that we're going to have to work very hard to convey to voters why this is important. And one of the pieces of that is schools. And we want this building to be something that the voters can say that makes sense for this building to be used for the administrative offices for the school. But I just want to make clear that the use of this property is part of the quid pro quo. It's part of the exchange for the approximate one acre. If you decline and said well we don't need that one acre, that's a different story. Do we really need this bad that we really want to have the exchange of the one acre? I don't know if that is balancing. This is to balance what the benefits are. If you didn't need that land, if you reduced the size of this so that you didn't need that land, that's a different question. That's a different question. I don't think we're answering that. We want to have you take that land so we can have this building. You want that land in exchange to balance this to get the quid pro quo. We'll take the building. That is different. Maybe it's subtle but I think that's very different. We have not had a discussion in public about the terms of the MOU on either side. David and Kevin can communicate a revised time frame and we can discuss whether or not we can amend this agenda item to include an extension of the action on the MOU and any kind of warning. Obviously it wouldn't be a warning until we hear definitively what ballot or what time frame the council is looking at. We can have that discussion in a regular meeting. Maybe we should just go forward. I think so. That's not what we were asking for. I think we just wanted to have a public statement that you were in support of the MOU. I think I would say with anything, we're here. The board has been here to essentially it was warned for an action. That said, I think we're understanding that you're in need of time based on the pricing and recalibrating perhaps. What I would say is certainly we remain interested but what I would say time brings about other factors too. So if we were to say we're going to delay this, I know this isn't the case, but we're going to delay it for six months. It's going to be very different to us because again, we have a lot. The MOU would have the elements of actually more specific than the elements, a definitive MOU which would include a ballot warning language, which obviously includes a price tag to it. So it sounds like the council has some outstanding information. That part of the MOU, so I think there's certainly a willingness to extend the timeframe to approve an MOU and we can have that discussion. I don't know if that's what we're asking for. But if you guys don't know. But we have to have a number on the ballot. Yeah, there's no way we can sign an MOU until at least the footprint of the building is determined. I'm not sure that's what we had warned to discuss this evening in the first place. What I'm hearing is you need more information as a council. We need more information in order to land on the final figure that is required on the ballot, which is part of the MOU. My question would be to follow up on Martin's hypothetical. If we went with a smaller footprint and didn't need the acre of land, what does that look like for the school district? Does that translate to you spending X number of thousands of dollars for new administrative space over the next short term horizon? That's a stronger argument to the voters that this is the right path. That's what I'm looking for both me as a voter and me as a city councilor to make sure that this truly makes sense for a new city hall right in front of your elementary school. That hasn't been the question that's been in front of us. The terms of the MOU that the board and the administration staff spend a lot of time on are pretty specific and I think they stand alone. I think they answer all of your questions that you've indicated. So I don't know if there's additional clarification needed there. It sounds like that's available and can be considered in your decision making. I think in a nutshell, I'll go on the premise that the MOU is going to be intact and as drafted, but we haven't been able to nail down that final number because there's too many pieces that we've got to fine tune it. You don't rush into a 22 and a half million dollar building until we figure out what that final figure is going to be. There are some things we can take out, some things we can change. I would hope we can go forward close to as planned just with some modifications to the design and content, but from my perspective, I can't speak for all of us, but I hope maybe I am, is that our intent is that that MOU is great and that's what we're going forward with. We've got to nail down a price and then we can go forward. As somebody said, if we split the ballot into a local ballot, we've got ourselves a few more weeks. Worst case scenario, we don't vote until March and I think Kevin, you said, the worst case is that pushes groundbreaking back a few months and the grand scheme of things, that doesn't matter a bit. So we've got time to figure this number out, but if we're spending 22 and a half million dollars or something less than that for a building that's going to last 100 years, we darn well got to get it right. And so it's going to take us a little longer to do that, but in my mind, I have every belief that that MOU is absolutely going to be intact. Okay. So yes, that's, we'll move on to the next, I don't know if we need to adjourn. Yeah. And so you'll consider extending the date. Yeah. Thank you, David. Thank you very much. Yeah. Thank you all. Thank you. President in the MOU. The bond number is the bond. I think so. In the MOU, isn't it? Yeah. I thought the cost for the whole. No, no, no. Okay. I don't know why we didn't agree. What's that? Elizabeth thought that we needed the final number for the, I kept saying. Well, we need the final number for the ballot. Right, but not for the MOU. But she didn't want to, I don't think she wanted to approve the MOU unless there was a final number on the ballot. That's okay if they don't want to do that. We don't want to put an MOU on that we don't both agree on. So if we come up with some change, I mean they could pass the MOU. You can word the MOU so do we authorize, right? Which means you may or may not execute. It doesn't have a dollar figure. No, no, I know. But still there are terms of the MOU which specify amounts of land and things like that, right? And the quick pro quo for this place. So my point is that if the MOU is written today, it goes on the ballot in November and it's approved. But in the meantime, we decide something different. You may have to go through and pass a whole new MOU. That's a possibility. We're not going to let that happen, though. Well, we don't know what's going to happen, do we? Well, we're going to hopefully in the next few weeks here finalize a number or we're going to push the vote off to March which gives us several more months to pick that number. And that MOU can stay, right? I really like what you said, Dave. This is a building that lasts 100 years so this is worth our time and discussion. Yeah, three more months. I know, I know. I just... I think that's all we needed to hear. If we need that acre of land, they're going to want this building. If we shrink the footprint, we don't need the acre, then they don't get this building. So the question is, that's a different MOU, then. It's not a different MOU, it's just we don't execute the MOU. I'm saying it, but if you want to... Either party can pull out. If you want the November ballot to contain the MOU as it is today, you can do that, but you can vacate it later on but not executing it, right? It just authorizes it to happen, right? The voters say yay or nay. It doesn't mean it has to happen if that's worded correctly, right? I know that they had to leave, but so they're not going to approve it tonight. So when are they going to approve it in two weeks? So that's beyond the state deadline. So we're going to have to do a separate ballot then is what this... Well, we basically just gave them a carte blanche to delay. Yes, we did. I mean, not... I was trying to send them the message at the end that we saw that MOU was remaining intact. So did I, I agreed with you. Hopefully that's... If they want to push it off a couple of weeks, you know, and if we come up with a number, fine. If we don't come up with a number in a few weeks because there's still too many decisions to make, then it takes longer, you know. I mean, I think... We're not building a $22.5 million building in a hurry. Well, they did go on record as saying, yes, we really... It is pretty quid pro quo, but they did say they really wanted this space. Right, right. So I think we can... I heard them say they want this space for the use of the acre of land. I wanted them to say, yeah, we really want to use this space. It fits really well with our plan. We would open up that wing of middle school for additional classes and programs, but they didn't say that. They didn't say that. David said it a little bit. To them, it's like a dollar balance thing, right? The acre of land for this building, period, right? But they said they want it. They said it's important. I'm sure they wouldn't, yeah. That's what I heard too. So let's go back to figuring out our numbers. Yeah. Oh, Jennifer? Yeah, I'm really interested in the discussion and my hearing is gone. Oh, sorry. People can speak into their microphones and also when it gets on the tape, I can't hear it on the tape either even when I turn up my sound. So, and Megan, especially because your voice is not like mine, it doesn't... I mean, I can do a study of 100 kids and people can hear me, but I really appreciate it. Point well taken. Thank you. Because I'm really interested. Well, do we need to... No, I have this one. Oh, you do. I thought this one was yours. Okay. Yeah, everyone has one. So we're all set. So... Well, hopefully we could even ask them for a special meeting if we can come to fruition with a number soon in order to make it to the November ballot, that deadline. We could certainly ask them to have a 15-minute meeting to approve it with us. We certainly can. And we've got until you say if we're going to use a local ballot, we can go until about September 15th. About. That's not official. That's a whole month off. There's no way we're doing it by next Monday. So it's either a local ballot by then or we're going to have to push it to March. Let's see where we go. You just put the onus on the poll workers, that's all. As we found out last night with yes, no, no, yes, yes, yes, no, no. And then yes, blank. Yes, blank, blank, yes, blank, blank. No, blank, blank, no. Yeah. Okay. That added an hour and a quarter to the county, at least for some districts. Okay. For the past. Move on to item five which is comments and questions from the public not related to the agenda. Are there any comments or questions? All right. We'll move on to six. And this is our working session on the public facilities and city center. This is just picking up where we left off, right? Yes. And we have, do we have some more information, Alana? Do you have to set up a machine? Okay. I have a handout for the record. Alana Blanchard. And, but I did discover one type of one. Hopefully there aren't too many more. But I corrected that one on half of these and I'll give them to you. Is it a number? Is it a zero? All right. If it's an of or a two, it's no big deal. It was a number. It was. Thank you. Thank you. Sir. Oh, but they didn't do the library and senior center alone. That includes everything. That's the library, senior center and city hall. Well, there's no point in having a library, senior center alone on the library alone is 19 million. Bottom line, it's a very expensive piece of land to build on. Right. Okay. Do you want to Sure. Take us through these. Yes. So since Monday we had a few conversations and we've looked at the numbers and we've gotten more information. For example, the library board of trustees confirmed that the Blanchard fund has 428,000 instead of 450,000. So we plug that number in, which reduces the debt as any capital campaign would reduce the debt at the time that we take the debt that the city elects to take the debt. The I went back and looked at the numbers for the roadway and so I moved some of the some of the costs associated with the roadway that are on the owner's side for the land acquisition into the impact fees. So they're no longer part of the debt. So that got moved out and when you say just to clarify so I understand the roadway fees that is the new road into both the school and the back of the library city hall. Correct. So all that work and then the stuff in front of the library and Market Street is the Market Street cost, right? That's the Market Street cost and since that's normally born by the developer we would include that within our debt as opposed to the impact fee as opposed to the street which is a city center street and therefore eligible for impact fees. So we're treating those two streets separately. One is the one on Market Street is within calculated as being a cost that would be debt funded and the new street is being calculated as impact fee funded. And just to clarify all of these numbers are estimates. So they're based on the information that we have now and so the total estimated cost it's built out of a series of allowances. Some things are fairly fixed like fees, land cost those are already, we already have agreements in place that set those costs. We know what the fire permit is going to be a certain percentage of the total building cost like that. And we know right now the design has so many windows and so many doors and so some things are pretty easy to estimate and then other things are built out of allowances. So between the first column and the second column and the third column there's a big difference. The first column is for the library alone and the second and third are based off of drawings. So the first one is based on taking the estimate from the second and third column which is for the whole building and taking all the costs that have been calculated looking at the cost that belong to the parcel itself versus the school site looking at costs that belong to the library, looking at shared costs that the library would still have to continue and having conversations about that to better understand what's shared and what's not and then and then adding those all up and applying all the other costs to it. So the second column which is the library senior center city hall is essentially the same building that we discussed on Monday minus any deductions that you had consensus on that could be taken of that 800,000 approximately 600,000 has been reduced. So it's still and if you include the PV it's still almost 23 million, so 22.8 million total and when I say PV that means solar I always have to think about it because I think I always think go think in piping first that's photovoltaics but for that amount the total bond debt would be over 21 million of which the CIP reserve fund finance bond would be 16.8 million and the annual CIP bond payment would be 806,000. The last column we were the John Stetson as well as Deep Roy and several of the architecture team members were working on this and one of the things that came up is that we are still very very early in the design process there are a lot of allowances there are a lot of unknowns and there will be you know as we get finer grain detail into the mechanicals and so forth there will be opportunities as we get into finer grain to cut costs and generally they explain the process is you see your costs go up and then you cut them and make them go down they go up and they go down throughout the design process but we are very early on so a lot of we have a lot of unknowns so there are very little few known things that can be cut and the other the other element of that is that if we would discuss those with you and as we go through them if you decide okay we want to keep that we want to keep that at a certain point for some buildings you can leave a certain portion unbuilt I don't think we would do that only because I think every part of the building is programmed to be it seems like there's a demand for every part of the building right away but the furniture fixtures and equipment budget is over a million dollars for this building and that's a budget where that's a wonderful opportunity for a capital campaign and it's also a budget that can be added at a later time it's ordered it comes that those funds are needed much later in the project and for some of the building some rooms can be furnished at a later date so so the last column really reflects that and what it includes is minus 1.2 of the building that you looked at so that accounts for 800,000 in the cuts that were discussed those do not have to be the cuts that those are just we know that that much can be taken out and we estimate that another 600,000 could also be taken out of the budget as the design progresses so that number that column reflects that and then you also ask what would it cost to build the library alone a lot of the costs are in the site and in the fees and unfortunately we were looking at the library and even things like an elevator if you have a basement in a public building like a library which has controlled access because you want to control the access in and out of the library that's where you check out books and that's where you leave the library so you would either have the choice of the basement being only for staff parking so then you would have one elevator to the basement or you could have two elevators one that goes from the basement to the ground floor and then one that goes up to all the rest of the floors so that you have a clear access to the library so they're just it's not an inexpensive building like there's a lot of cost drivers so this this looks at the owners the construction costs the solar array in the road so all of those three components are in the top number and then the cost that would need to be financed any deductions from the finance so anything that's raised by the capital campaigns right now we know there's $428,000 the total bond debt and then how much would be financed through TIFS district financing how much would be financed through a capital reserve fund funded bond and what the estimated payment from the CIP bond for the capital reserve fund bond would be the amount below $860,000 annual reserve contribution we have a quick drawing of the facade massing just so you could see what it would look like in context what the parking is on site the least parking and the potential vote date so so what is not in this then with is the additional capital campaign that the library is going to undertake and any savings and do we know what that ballpark figure is I can't remember what did the consultants identify as the possible number was it $800,000 in total so it's just an additional $370,000 because that included the Blanchett fund did it or not so potentially I know that you can't bank on it but that's what they're estimating the possibility of capital campaign for the library $800,000 so I just wanted to add that as part of our thinking did we get the word on the grant the federal grant did you get word on the federal grant we did get word we did not get that grant but they shared the comments with us and we think it's really viable to do it again in 2019 when we have the opportunity great I'm sorry I didn't keep you abreast of that Tom had his hand up really quick very helpful this makes the argument so this shows that the city hall is a much smaller cost to the people on top of the library three questions on this one really quick easy one in column 2 and column 3 the 38-40 spaces on site would be on the rick markup property is that correct correct I'd love for you to explain where you came in column 1 from the 11 million to the 13-7 but before there right off the bat in column 1 district finance bomb you have 3.3 million if I do 0.3 or 30% of the 19 million I'm coming at 5.27 million why is that not 5.27 million because this number is the maximum that was allowed in the tiff district financing plan which is the follow-up plan in which VEPSI determines the maximum amount that can be used for a project based on the estimated cost so because our estimated cost in 2015 was lower although we did include escalations we did not include sufficient escalations and so because of that we can try we can certainly try but this is what we have authority for it's worth trying but we wouldn't have a final answer before this needs to be on the ballot but that could be a windfall later on it's like yes would they possibly change it after the fact I would check with them did you have another question did you explain the 11.4 to the 13.7 what was that all about the 11.4 million that's the trade cost so the construction cost has several components it's what the construction manager will bid out different packages for the project so that's their estimate of the trade costs and then they have their own costs on top of that so they have a supervisor that's on site they have people coming in and doing surveys and making sure everything is in the right place they have their safety inspector their profit they have all the people who make sure everything is on time and on schedule and is ordering supplies when they're supposed to be arriving at the site when they're supposed to be wearing their hard hats it's also insurance that's a big part of it and bonds there's another large insurance bonds contingency that's where all the contingency is as well there's several items that aren't related necessarily to the actual physical costs of the building that are related and that's where those are can you identify the contingency at about a million 1.5 so they have approximately 5% in theirs so they have a contingency for design actually they have 7% because they have two one for them and one for the design and then we have one for during construction is that it for you Tom? David? I think first of all echoing Tom in 48 hours you've painted a very clear picture of where we're probably at I think that's great and thank you so column 2 reflects that number 228 it reflects after we took out two fireplaces a generator left in the skylight etc I just wanted to be clear on that and then the 218 is saying well the design has quite a ways to go and we're probably going to be able to take some more out as we do that and that might leave us with 219 but then if the library raises 800 then we're down to maybe 21 and if we don't use all the contingencies we could be between 20 and 21 as a realistic number I think it's important that we get to a number that we're comfortable with and that you're comfortable with we don't want to go out with a number that you say I'm not sure we can we want one number that you say we're pretty comfortable with that but the way I see it we have to make a final decision library, senior center, city hall that's what we're building then we're looking at numbers of 219 it's going to get fine tuned as the design proceeds and hopefully in the next few weeks some of that can be fine tuned fairly readily so that we'll know is that... we're working on developing detail so in this estimate it's a schematic estimate there's very few physical construction details that they're working with so our teams have been working to develop those details for September 5th at that point a new estimate will be developed so three weeks after that point there should be an updated number based on more physical... Three weeks after September 5th so that makes it difficult for us to make the November ballot at all unless we think we're close enough by September 5th to say we're going to be able to do this so this number, the 21.8 which has a total bond debt of 20.4 million that number I think for the team as well and especially for the construction manager and they're really the ones who say okay you got to change stuff because they're doing all of the cost estimating it's helpful to have a solid target number because we can be taking out this or take out that or take out this but when you have a number like that then it's easier to make those choices those really tough choices like okay we're not going to have a green roof or you know we're not going to have this but all of getting to that number is probably going to be throughout the design process it's probably not going to happen in the next month so we might probably take another 300 off there are going to be some we and one of the reasons that I put in a range of parking is because we have some decisions about how we do the site plan for the school that because of the MOU that might come a lot faster but some of them would lose a lot of parking but might save a lot of money so just there's probably like 30 things in this project that could do that and some of them will get too earlier and some of them will get too much later in the project because as you nail down each thing then you design the or I say you they once you nail something down they can get to the next layer but level of detail but an important level of detail is what number are we trying to hit I think that's where we're at now I think that the designer team and those who've provided input have done so to inform the council as to what the public um desires in a building and now you're confronted with having to deal with the cost issue I think the time is now to merge the two matters and have the council discuss a not to exceed number then they can design to that or a not to proceed not to proceed both periods there are those two possibilities a not to exceed number or a not to proceed at all with this with this plan of all well yes I mean that's also on the table it has to be on the table right sure but for for them to be able to move forward constructively they now need to pretty much know that number and have the other discussion or we have to pull the plug entirely one of the other so the option C though the library no the option there is either proceed with one number or two numbers or pull the plug that's in that's my opinion right now I just like to ask a question of the five of us library senior center city hall we need to agree that that's what we're looking at and then I think we know enough this evening to give you folks a target I mean in my mind I'll just say what I'm thinking I'm seeing twenty one eight seven two the library raises eight that magic number is probably twenty one and say okay hit twenty one if you can do better better and don't do any worse than that and that in my mind twenty one based on what I've heard so far is an acceptable number if we're building a library senior center city hall and from my perspective that's what we've been talking about all along it doesn't make any sense to build just a library so let's let's do it that's that's me so I'm following you up to the the twenty one because I want to know what the one point two takes out and I went into this saying that if any cuts are going to be made I don't want it to be on the environmental soundness of the building I don't want it to be on the durability of the building and those are the expensive items we didn't do that the other night we took out the fire we took out fire but that's the second column so we're not in the twenty one that's in that one point two right that's part of the one point two what are you talking about when you say that no the middle column is what we came to Monday night yeah but that is also in that one point two didn't you say that it's still a million so this has minus one point two million from the first number so it includes the eight hundred thousand that we discussed plus an additional six hundred I don't know that it would be the skylight if we as we know more about the building we'll have more options for ways to cut costs so column three is an additional six hundred thousand so it's not one point two which are in this column and then in addition I need to know what that six hundred because I'm not willing to take away some things right and I think that as we come to those I think we know from that first eight hundred what you're thinking so I think we know that there's two hundred of that that you would say no you don't want to see cut there so that means that we're looking for an additional eight hundred just a hefty number but we have eight months six months of design yeah and I like Alana said there's areas now that are estimates sometimes when people put estimates a subcontract here may be a little bit conservative so we feel there's perhaps a little bit of conservatism in some of the numbers things that are flexible are how much furniture gets purchased so there's a number in there right now that buys all the furniture for the entire building but there's a lot of furniture that we're looking to reuse and a lot of elements that will reduce that cost but that number hasn't come down yet as a result so we feel there are items there that we can work on to help bring that cost down that aren't structural integrity and that don't sacrifice environmental quality etc if I think what I heard you say is that as you refine the design process you're going to find money you're going to find some money that gee we don't need to spend that and that push comes to shove worst case we don't buy some furniture at the far end this will stay within our numbers but if the library raises eight hundred thousand twenty one million is a reasonable number to target is that reasonable statement I just I want the screws to be long I was in Hotel Vermont when the ceiling came down okay so I just I don't want corners to be cut where we're really making foolish decisions here and where we're giving people green light to really short change what shouldn't be short changed I don't think you're suggesting that I just want to be clear top fall safety first this is a hundred year building we're not cutting any corners but estimators estimate typically higher than it will be when you really refine it if they're a good estimator yeah and so I just see twenty one million as a pretty good target and you all seem comfortable with that if the library raises eight hundred I think if it's a matter of can we get there or not feel that there's a way we can get there so I would suggest that we give them the go ahead to target twenty one million and see what refinements come in over the next few weeks and see exactly if we can be more specific on what got us to the twenty one million and then see if we're ready to go with that number and if we think we are then we then we let the school board know and we go for it and if we're still uncomfortable then we're not going to make the November ballot and so be it I have one thing to add to that it's relating to the purchase and sale contract but it might be more appropriate in an executive session that I would like to know in concert with what you just outlined did what I just outlined make sense to you yes it does to me I have a question on the parking spaces and I know that's related to the the form based code correct the required parking spaces on site that number was generated is there any way to exempt a public building that I mean I just are there a way to I don't know what the costs of those are but that's all on the school property or a lot of it is and if you just don't build as many parking spaces over there but they're there to use I think yeah I think all of the spaces that are on the site if we can get the maximum amount of spaces I believe that they will be used pretty heavily especially given the public input we've received today it would be great not to have to lease any spaces the zoning ordinance does require us to lease spaces we're able to reduce the full number by 25% through installing bicycle racks which is great and there are exemptions for other things but we don't qualify for them the way they're written today and we'll keep looking at that I just wanted to clarify the estimated cost because I know David you were saying the 21 million in the hopes that the library would raise the 800,000 but wouldn't we have to go to the voters with the 21.8 million as the number recognizing that we will do our best to raise those but I want to go with the whole number but I don't see this number but the conversation with the public is these are the funding pieces and our anticipation is or they have great confidence in being able to raise $800,000 and so the the actual bonded debt gets reduced thank you for clarifying I just want to say I am very much on the fence on this city hall thing Tim's previous points about pulling the plug I just I'm not ready to say that's an option I want to explore I just would love to press a little bit harder to get a library I campaign saying and I really truly feel we need a library it's just it's owed to this community as an anchor so I want to explore I don't know how much time we have that single library option as much as these numbers help make the case for the city hall I'm wondering about the 2.5 million in my mind my number is $10 million debt load to the people for new libraries with tiff covered in the rest that's what I thought with that on the spot but I could be sold on the city hall and just I'm not quite there yet I want to talk about that in an executive session and I'll be honest the one other thing and let me keep chatting one other thing that's really pressing on me what I'm most concerned about this and I'm a transparent guy I'm concerned that if we go into debt for $5 million we're never going to get a pool in South Burlington because this money's not going to be there and I see a library with no city hall at the $10 million range and we could be then a year from now, two years from now talking about pools at J.C. Park that's what's on my mind you love that pool idea I do, I want a pool pools are nothing but Trump I don't know I'm not going to look boring the path is still it's usable it's usable three months a year unless it's indoors there there's a retractable cover underneath the boat which has a playing area a few million well I'm not I'm not ready to pool I'm just still leaving a few more so it sounds like we can we need some discussion in this legislative session on this library senior center city hall are there any other comments about that piece or any comments from the public yes I'm Mark Cole I guess hopefully you guys remember I'm one of the library board members and I'm on the design committee I I guess I tend to wear a lot of hats on our board the conversation about the amount of money that the library is at least anticipating raising we need to understand or you guys need to understand what that means exactly the 800,000 estimate that we've provided to you was the amount of money that the consultant that we hired anticipated that we could raise locally from sources within Vermont what she was not retained to do and what she has yet to provide any input on I don't know if she will is the amount of money that the library can raise through other sources and you started to talk about this grant that the library applied for that was denied one of the things that the body that the grant was the application was sent to said to us was why haven't you sought money from private sources from private foundations so I spent a little time and if you wouldn't mind I'd just like to hand this out to you guys this is a actually just a small piece of a chart that one of the national library organizations put together that identifies grants that have been made to these are nothing but libraries in the country the number of grants the total dollar amount that have been provided and as you can see over the course of the last 11 or 12 years the grants have totaled somewhere in the neighborhood of 3.7 billion dollars a lot of these you'll see are multi-source grants but some of them are single source grants and some of these even these single source grants are in the hundreds of millions we have not even crack the surface of this yet part of the reason that we haven't been able to proceed with this is because we haven't had a design to provide to whoever it is that we would be asking to make grants the good news is we've got someone on our board who does grant writing for a living and I guess we've got somebody I think who's involved in grant writing I spoke to it was Margaret Ann Cross who used to be our chair I spoke to her today and she has committed to turning every single stone over to find whatever money is out there and as you can see at least based on what has happened historically there's quite a bit of money out there so obviously we can't make any promises in terms of what we would be able to raise from these sources but we have yet to even approach this and I just thought that it was important for the for you all to understand that we're just getting started with this exactly fascinating list I mean I look at somebody like sports heroes and humanitarians museum of Pittsburgh one person must add a passion for that because they put in six million bucks the money is out there money is out there we just have to go get it and as far as this building and whether to build just a library or build a city hall with a library I've been at this for four years now I guess the understanding was that this library is going to wind up being the keystone of Market Street it was going to be the thing that sort of hit off what was going to happen in terms of the development over there and in terms of the TIF financing and the kind of businesses that we'd hopefully like to attract to the area and which will in turn I guess have an impact on what the property values are going to wind up being and how this thing will wind up being able to pay for itself I just think that to the extent that we really stick with the wow factor as close as we can get to it we're going to have a much better shot of making this whole thing happen as opposed to cutting corners and trying to you know do it on the on the cheap so what I'll say is we are committed the at least the Margaret Ann has committed to putting in the time and effort to pursue this I have to confess I have not brought this to the attention of the full board I was out on vacation and I just got back and I heard what was going on and I know that the timetable is short so I wanted to come in here and talk to you guys but hopefully you can keep this as part of your conversation thank you this is a lot of work and it's hopeful and I wonder if we bond and we build it you can apply for money to pay back the city for the bond you know what I mean not I don't know how that works so that would be an important I guess consideration do we need to could we approve a design then go out for these grants and then with those grants in hand bond for the remainder I know it's a year or two is that a common practice with libraries get the design approved if I were a grantor and had a trust like this I would want to see that the city had a little skin in the game and not just that we were going to have a city hall senior center library that was going to be built just with someone else's philanthropy well it's only the library that could be it's only a part of that could be the NEH grant was unusual because part of that grant was to support fundraising for a project that hadn't been finished but most of them are going to want to see that that the community's behind it and that it's a go I mean I would think that would improve your strength in your grant I mean I'm sure there's some that could be oh yes sure just for the mic I just wanted to make a second pitch for city or city the city hall and I also want to clarify did the library include the auditorium yes okay because I think it's equally as great a magnet for city center as a library I especially have been thinking about this after knowing how many people voted early and I think a lot of them vote early by coming here if Donna were here I could ask in fact I would predict more than a majority as opposed to the male business and then I looked at the city clerk's page on the website and so they're in charge of land records that brings fair amount of people not just in residents elections of voting marriage licenses dog and cat licenses vital records public street use permits where you're coming to get them entertainment permits and you have to get the application from someplace else but liquor and tobacco licenses and also you can come in and pay your real estate taxes I think a lot of people do that DMV temporary registration and I know this personally green mountain passport is $2 a piece I forget how old you are but it gets you into all state parks free and parking down on the waterfront free also and one thing I learned is they'll do free notary services at the city clerk's office for no more than three signatures at a time but that's a fabulous service that I didn't know about so anyway I really think and that doesn't consider the people that I want to say Ray Belair but has Ray actually left not completely not completely anyway the planning and zoning office gets people so and I just think and I still say there's a lot of synergy but I just think all of the and they're not all the same people that are coming in but the city hall functions and the library functions or coming in at the same time so in terms of an economic engine for city center I just think I encourage you to think long and hard about excluding city hall from this building because having it there to me is really going to help with development sales taxes meals and rooms taxes are going to be places to eat people come in and do land records and have something to eat or something or go to the library so I just I really ask again to I do not see the library by itself nearly as powerful as the library and city hall thank you any other comments from yes I live at summer woods I'm sorry I missed Monday but I was out of town just I want to echo what Sandy just said so I won't go on ad nauseam but I think that's an important an important comment it is relatively speaking not that much more and if this is going to be the heart of our city then I think that we need to have the city hall I would repeat again what I said when I was here a couple of weeks ago I haven't discussed this with our friends in recreation and parks but I'm wondering for based on the description that I've heard in this room if we need to call that space something other than the senior center or it needs to have something that says it's going to have a bigger use at a great discussion with Karen in the parking lot about senior centers and her image of that and it sort of helped me to reshape my concept of what this might look like but I do think it's going to have broader use than just a senior center and until the public gets educated the way Karen educated me I'm not sure that they will embrace that concept and so I think that we need to think about maybe something that's a little more descriptive for that space than senior center because I think people will think of it as the way the senior center is in this room rather than the larger concept of senior center so I would lobby for the library multi-generational activity center city hall all in that building so thank you. I think at one point Barb we were calling it a community center which has certainly a broader context something that embraces that it is going to be a place where lots of us can hang out and do wonderful things. I think we had said several meetings back that we weren't going to call it a senior center we'd come up with another terminology for that's just what's sitting on the architects drawing board right. I forgot to mention this is for the library but it's also the library or South Hero is in the process of fundraising to build a library so you might want to get in touch and see how they're approaching it. We had talked about that. Oh you had? Good. Any other comments from the audience? Other comments by the city council? The only thing to clarify is that we were talking about $21 million if the library raised $800,000 so maybe we need to say it's $218 and it will is your target going on the premise that they raised zero and if they raise it's just a number on paper but I guess we can't go on the presumption they're going to raise $800,000 and so if your third column is $218, $872 all around down to $218 maybe that has to be your target not going on the premise that $800,000 is coming from the library. Does that make sense? Or can you target $21? There's two different issues here there's one is the cost of the the total cost is what we're talking about here how you raise the money for that is a separate discussion $1,000 is the how you raise the money piece it's not the construction piece so their target would still be $21 $218 is the total estimated construction cost of all in so that's what you would take to the voters that's what they're targeting and how you pay for that is another matter then that that matter is not on the ballot but it is certainly in the educational materials you provide to the public so if we're giving them a working target it's $218 yes presumably when you go out to bond and when you're going to bring this to the voters I assume you would make it clear to the extent that there's money raised between the time that the vote is taken when the bond gets issued shrink the number down the number I think is a bond not to exceed $218.72 or whatever number we agree upon and then we only bond for what we need psychological pricing works when we set targets for the budget we often say under 3% is it effective communicating to the people if you wanted a target to put on the ballot you wanted to bind our hands and say not to exceed $19,999,000 I think there is merit to that this was less than $20 million putting pressure on us to find everything $199,000 it works I've got studies I could show you even for municipal bonding that sounds a little sleazy hey we have smart cookies all over us I asked one question to the library folks do you have a library foundation or a library of friends do you have a membership organization how many people belong there's a friends organization that exists we established the foundation and we're now in the process of getting an application to the IRA how many people are actively or passively engaged in supporting the library is it $200 or $2,000 it depends on once the fundraising starts I imagine we'll be looking at thousands for the moment the membership organization has around 200 people in it okay well the next item is the indoor recreation facility that conversation do we want to have that now or not can I ask just for clarity for staff exactly where the council is on the library city hall senior center whatever it is called auditorium what is is the council comfortable with the 21.8 number such that we continue to design to that plan or not why no Davis well then we need to have that continue dialogue I'm just one vote each one of you should express your views on this so our designers have clarity about the next steps what I was asking for on Monday night was a breakdown I would ask why there wasn't a library senior center breakdown as well because it wouldn't change the footprint enough for the city hall to be able to stay here or we discerned from the discussion the other night that what you wanted us to come back with was the library and auditorium right but not the city hall and the senior center so that's what the staff focus on so then communication and clarity is important so seeing the breakdown as is with for going with 21.8 less than $3 million difference to have all three as opposed to the library alone with our target number for the three I really see that as a leg I can stand on with the voters to explain why I would put forward the three because we are maximizing the use of a very expensive piece of land and as we have residents articulating as something as I've argued for years is that I think that the city center is really important for our identity for our development of our city center to really bring the center of gravity there to the people there activities there restaurants there we saw a large turnout at the city center park grand opening and so if there were a $10 million gap I would have a much harder time to explain to the voters with less than $3 million I feel that I am comfortable with going forward and advocating that point I would really like to talk about an executive session that would be something that I would need resolved before I could vote yes okay the only other thing I would add is that if we're targeting 21-8 I'm looking at our next city council meetings August 20th and then we're going to be September 10th because the 3rd is Labor Day the 4th we will usually meet we're going to meet the 4th we're going to meet the 4th and by the time we get to the 4th which is about 3 weeks down the line you'll either come back and say we're good at 21-8 or gee as we refine this you could be a little bit less and that would be a good thing I'm saying we're not going to nail the number down tonight or the 20th we might be able to hopefully nail the number down on the 4th but at that point if we're not comfortable with it and if we still feel we have a ways to go we can push the vote off and we'll have a few months it's hardly the end of the world that would require that we have it as a separate on the ballot so we can make those decisions on the 4th which would be four questions what are those Megan so the land swap then the bond and then the cost of the building aren't those three separate now no the cost of the building would not be on the ballot the cost of the bond would be the bond would be and the land swap would be so only two questions I was under the impression we had four questions what are the other two time those are the only two I give them now that might have to be structured in four clauses I think those are the two issues on the ballot one yes or no well two yes or no that would be the land swap which is a separate and then whatever the figure for it garden street might be separate on street the street that chunk might be separate if there are three so there is the little tiny piece that we need for garden street to get from the school district also each of the land swaps would be separate it might be I know that there is draft there's draft language available in preparation for Monday's meeting and so one of my questions is do you still want to have a public hearing on a warrant you will need to have a public hearing on the question that's warned and it takes us approximately 17 days to warn a public hearing so that's a process question and we can talk about it but I'm just raising that didn't we do that in the past where we had to come back to a public hearing for a vote and the number had changed I remember that so we would do that again we had to I think the important thing is that you have having a public hearing that the I think the language I'm not Andrew but that the legislation basically requires that the public has an opportunity to comment on the question in a public hearing that's been properly warned which is that 15 days plus all the time so so that almost requires that we have a separate valid item so that's sort of established the only way you would have had it on the state ballot provided ballot would have been to agree to this on Monday at your meeting so so you have the other option and if that doesn't work then we're pushing it out further and that's not the end of the world okay so these folks need to know though whether to keep working right have we told them specifically well I mean I would agree I'm willing to go with the 218 I think it's a big number I think it will require a lot of work to make that sale frankly I thought the penny for paths was going to and it did require a lot of work and they did provide and work hard to get that passed and that was in my mind a surprisingly strong vote so that tells me that if you can make the case clearly I think we can make the case to the public and that they will support this I mean I could be wrong but I'm willing to try that I mean we sort of diddled and fiddled around with the library and city center I mean I totally agree with you Megan that I saw this as the centerpiece of city center that's why we would call it a city center and not just a dense housing district because if we don't have city center library then that's what it is it's just a five-story apartment complex on expensive land across from the U-Ball right versus really with a nice little park that we just cut the ribbon to so you know I'm willing to go out on a limb I mean I've been defeated before on issues but we won't get it unless we ask but it will require significant conversations and you know good materials and really being able to talk through the part the points and engage the public in it but what I did after Monday meeting is went and talked to not hundreds of people certainly but some people based on the amount the taxes would go up to cover that reserve fund that we would have to increase and so just like the pennies for Paz where it's 30 dollars a year on average right I said average point and people I talked to they said between 30 and 100 per year okay so well maybe I think you make a very good point in my mind having lived here for 40 something years this is the future of our community and I think you know we want the best community possible that's going to continue to attract people to live here especially families moving in with kids and living here bringing this is going to be this is really going to be a critical piece of the future of South Burlington I think it's essential and I think we can explain that to people and pull it off and I think we need to so that's it needs to be distinctive if this truly is who we are absolutely it has to be absolutely so that's kind of the sense we got one real concerned no I guess and then Tom has some other issues that he needs to have resolved and and three that are willing to walk that plank well we could end up in a really nice pool yes I'm sorry yes so at this point a number of reasons so I don't know if I want to go into detail tonight but I'll just say that it's too much money we already have a city home we don't need a new city home if I were a voter and told we're going to get you a new city home why do you need a new city home but if you exclude the city hall the MOU falls apart with the school basically so the point is we need a new library and I do recognize it and have for years you are out of the school in your own space now which is an advantage you may not be in the best location ever but it's sort of better than where you were before okay spending 20 million dollars for a library plus city hall plus senior center is a huge amount of money and not to be taken lightly it's a long term bond just because you can spend the money doesn't mean that you should and fourth I don't think that that really is the best location for the library and we can look at other libraries around Chittenden County and you can say but Burlington is right downtown well theirs was built in 1908 or whatever it was right and they built a nice addition on the end because they needed that because they were growing right we don't have a spot yet city center to me and we can argue back and forth about whether that act will act as an anchor or not bring business into city center or not or define it as city center or not to me it's a library wherever you build it people are going to go there and I think there should be somewhere where it has more natural space immediately adjacent to it in a vision that's a little bit bigger than just library alright so there has got to be other land in this city that is less expensive that we may own ourselves right that would present a much nicer, cheaper opportunity and fulfill our needs and I just don't I think there's too much complexity with the school board MOU and then having to swap this place out and then duplicate capacity that you already have I can't sell that to a voter if you said we're going to build a library you know up near Oak Creek or something like that let's just say and it's going to be freestanding and it's going to be one of a kind by self and it was let's say it was 10 million dollars right then I would say that sounds like a great idea and you may argue about the location it's not on the bus lines, it's not in city center whatever okay but when you present that to somebody and you say and it's going to be like this right that's easier for them to swallow you know when you say 20, 30 years 6 to 10 million dollars whatever it is when we presented the idea of building a brand new police station for 6 million dollars at the Wheeler property right the voters turned it down flatly for a number of reasons but one of which I think is they didn't want to spend 6 million dollars on a police facility on prime land like that they spent more no they actually spent less when they spent less I don't think so I think it was 7 to 8 million wasn't it but the point is right that they didn't feel like I think they wanted to turn that land over to that type of function now if you were to say you wanted to put a library there you know then that could be a different conversation but that's not what I'm suggesting I'm just saying that there's got to be other land in this city that's cheaper that presents a better scenario for how to build this and sell it to the public that's what I'm saying I guess I would just really argue that when you look at the other communities in Chittenden County that are similar to ours not Burlington but Williston Shelburne Essex I don't know where Milton's library is but those three communities their libraries are in the center of their town and they happen to have a center of a town already created but if they're often adjacent to the city office buildings because they already had the land right in most cases well it's how the community evolved but I think there was a reasoning behind having the library which is a public building in the center of town because that was a little easier to get to for lots of people and it was a gathering place and a community place so it created that sense of community which is really what this community is struggling with we have lots of different distinct neighborhoods that act as communities but then we don't have a center and that's what we're looking for and I just think Tim it's critical even though the land is expensive I think the positive aspect of having that centralized is convincing to me and I think and I hope it will be convincing to the rest of the or the majority of our residents that does make sense that putting it out at Oak Creek or you know on some piece of property we own somewhere just because we own it you know only value it $100,000 or $20,000 is good planning good long term planning I don't think it is but we can you know I appreciate your difference of opinion I just see it and see enough other communities that I think it challenges what you're saying is just put it somewhere where it's where it's cheap city I came to two meetings at nine here I think there were in February and March or January and February and there were serious snowstorms going on and when I got here I mean the parking lots were overflowing I think once I almost didn't find a place to park and they were all these visioning meetings and I just I was thinking that would be hardly anywhere not very many people here and the place was full and everybody had posted I don't think there was a single person who ever said this is not the right place for library I mean the enthusiasm and the excitement couple asked about cost but not the place yeah I never heard anybody say oh no no no this shouldn't be in city centers I mean there's just been a lot generated about this location not just the library because we need a library but there's been a lot of focus on the location and did you raise it in any of those meetings? that was the location that had been selected for the purpose of that meeting there was no other location to propose it but it was a visioning meeting for the interior and the exterior of the building well there was one public meeting where somebody raised the issue of using wheeler farm and they thought that was the perfect place to put a building but the majority in that room really pushed back well it's where I've raised concerns about a new city hall since I heard this proposed the 10, 12 months ago so I've been a little consistent there yeah I will just say regarding time how it's been on nearly 30 years that the city's been trying to put the city center together and here we are on the cusp and it's normal to be a little nervous this is a big jump but I think we have to trust that we have at least two, three generations who have been working toward this moment behind us I think Megan that's I've got to kind of chuckle to myself because I said that before when we rebuilt Dorset Street back in the late 1980s it was with the vision that that was going to be the first piece of a city center project and it was basically going to be where we're talking about and at that point we said we're going to have it done by 2000 right now, decades behind already but I think we can either settle for mediocrity and look to a future that makes south religion life you know, a perfectly great community to live in but not as good as we can be and I think this takes us to be as good as we can be and contributes to that and I think we owe it to the people that live here that will live here in the future to do the best we can I'm relatively confident we can convince the voters that that's what we should do I want, when we have a survey what is South Burlington to you that it's more than gas stations in our city center I really, really do and I think that we have an opportunity here to make something beautiful I need a gas station as much as anybody else but this is something that will really, really define what we are to both of those points, I actually agree I think the library should be in this space I like that area, I'm just not sold that the city hall needs to be mashed on top of it in my mind, 50 years from now 100 years from now, I would love a South Burlington that might have a city hall across the street or a separate building, so a courtyard with an open space where people can congregate outside so I love the library in this location right in front of this school I like that location I'm just not sold that we need a new city hall really echoing the concerns that Tim raised about going to the public because this is a nice building I think it looks nice we're maximizing though the use of this land if we were to build a two-story building and then 50 years later build another two-story building across the street that's expensive land for a two-story building we maximized that we should put the parking garage underneath and add this to this well you truly want to maximize the use of the land well we did have the conversation though that was your vision the city hall, a library space in the middle and that number was $35 million and I think we're going to we have to be a little bit visionary here I truly believe climate change is the truth it's happening and I don't know if there are going to be days when they're going to cut off our electricity from such a time to such a time when only so many cars can ride on our roads who knows what the future is going to be so I think that building the future around cars is a mistake I'm going to say it right out there that we are on a path toward our own destruction and we have to really think that this is going to happen and we have to think that way I mean I'm not in a big think tank thinking about all these solutions like Elon Musk and everybody else but we have to think about what that city is going to look like in the future I do not see a city of cars we can't afford it so should I sell my house and rent an apartment in one of the five-story residential right next to the library maybe that day will come I'm saying that we have to think about where we've come from and where we're going and I think that where we've come from is since the 1980s we've been trying to put the city center into place and where are we going I mean an underground parking garage is finishable space so it could be repurposed if we got rid of all these dark cars so I mean we could put walls up and use that space 10, 20 years from now I'm just saying affordable housing I can teach you alright so have we given you the direction you need oh, Barbara just one last thing about meeting something that's in the center where we can all get to I get really nervous when I hear people talking about using other land that the city owns I think about what happened on Kennedy Drive with a buying farm and we lost all of the trees in that area I made an impassioned plea to the DRP and I'm going to make it to the planning commission about what a sacro big today is and I'm afraid that if we don't create this spot in the center when we talk about well there's a spot out there there's a spot out there we're going to lose more of our open space and we're also going to then expect people to drive their cars to get there and so there are multiple reasons but for me it's about open space and it's about access you already lost the most beautiful birch grove on Market Street that you've ever seen from a central school for the Allard Square building I understand I just want to say that it wasn't city owned I understand what's happening on Market Street and you can always replant more trees I hate to see tree cover lost as well for development but in some cases developers actually plant more trees you go back 30 years later look at Butler's ferns look at Butler's ferns Butler's ferns was a meadow and it's got the biggest trees now you ever go through again but we don't need a clear cut I understand, I don't want to derail that part of the conversation but I understand where you're coming from but we can reject open space and access so let's move on to the indoor recreation facility we is that something we are prepared to discuss tonight? I don't think we need to go too far on that this evening if you would like I can give a briefing on what I learned yesterday and where we might be at with it where you can talk about where you're at in negotiations and then I'll talk about alternatives but I don't think it's something that I don't think it's something deep on the city center and the community building let's get significantly through that before we you know, before we really we're not trying to get this on a November ballot or anything so this is something that their new economic development committee could really think about too they were saying on the recreation parks committee but do you want to talk about where you're at in discussions Kevin or not we continue the dialogue with Tony Brian is away for some time we'll be back next week we're nailing down the numbers we're getting a refinement on the numbers we're looking at an alternative that would probably eliminate the tear down the entire building which building of the building out in front that entire garage building and build a new front for that that meets the front at least meeting code requirements possibly providing office space for the staff as well it's possible that the cost of new construction may be equal to or less than trying to renovate the old building is that a brownfield in all likelihood is there grant money available from EPA or anybody to recondition that in some way there could be I have similar questions but I was going to also ask for an executive session because if that might factor into any negotiations with them I've had residents raise concerns about the nature of the soils and we will do a complete environmental assessment of the property fortunately for us you know I think Tony and Brian have been in the fuel business for decades and understand how to do that so we would get a full environmental assessment of the property before moving forward with a final negotiations with them we're getting a refinement on some of the other costs as well the concrete and a couple other other things so if I remember correctly the demer square demer clock tower square next to the kegel sit-go on the chauvin road back in the early mid-2000's right or before that they had to ask for a special drilled assessment of the soils to determine whether any of the previous tanks because you know they go through iterations of tanks had leaked anything that would be on their property so there are some really concrete things that have to be done what you're talking about to assure that the soils have not spread the adjacent properties so I just want to iterate that that could be a real turning point but it might be totally surmountable it could be and they often are surmountable they've been replacing tanks all over the state look at synex with town senator he had an instance where it was more expensive to remediate to near the garage so he had to reduce his design because of that from the last thing I heard they ran into real soil issues in that project who pays for that is that the seller or the purchaser it would be negotiated frankly if we don't purchase or more likely lease the property and they want to develop that they're going to have to do the assessment somebody's going to have to do the assessment anyway anybody's going to want a clean site so they're going to need to do that but we wouldn't negotiate that so it's it's been an oil company in a conversation with Tony I said so what's your soil like he said we've taken care of that many years ago that doesn't mean that we can't we don't have to do our due diligence but I think he is relatively confident that the soil is is okay and they took out all their tanks they took out their tanks a long time ago so we may find that that's fine do you want me to then talk about the alternative possibility or do you want to not so we had as some of you know I'm on the board and have been for 21 years of Dorset Park Skating Association Skating Links and we were oh maybe seven or eight years ago six years ago we had a real problematic city manager at that time so if you may remember and we were going to put a central entrance on the two rinks to complete the project as we had envisioned it many years ago and and unfortunately and I think irresponsibly that city manager wouldn't sign the permits necessary after we'd spent 50 to 60 thousand dollars on the design and he wouldn't do it he didn't want he didn't believe in Dorset Park Skating Association was just plain stupid and so we never did that we now are reasonably close to paying off our debt and we're revisiting the central entrance and I think there's a reasonable chance we're going to proceed with that in the next short period of time year two years and we could and we discussed this last evening at our board meeting just because we got to thinking instead of a one story we could go two stories and we could put the South Burlington Recreation Department on that second story and we could and we could put a dome out the back of the rinks we would have to add parking but there are some terrific benefits benefits are that is the core of our recreational activities in town already which is a great thing with the central entrance we're going to have expanded food service so people who are participating in activities could then even later in the evening get a bite to eat because we'll have an expanded cafeteria with I think I think Bob Leclerc said he's thinking 60 to 70 75 80 seats for a new cafeteria an expanded pro shop where people could buy odds and ends and so that becomes an option that I think we need to take a look at the downside is we give up the TIF financing on Tony's property but another upside of giving that up is Tony would then develop that commercially and it would create tax revenue and we don't know how much yet but that's something we've got to look at which is greater than housing which is what we're really focused on at the city center well it's going to be greater than the city having that and not paying any taxes at all so the possibilities at the rink we only you know we've had one board meeting that we discussed it briefly and agreed we should have some discussions to see if it's really viable and Tony is talking with the architects to see to get an updated figure of what it'll cost to build the entrance at this point and we'll ask them what might it cost to put a second story on that and we can go forward from there we certainly got the space and we own the land and so I think it becomes a potentially viable option for consideration before we before we go forward with anything and it just puts the other piece in the mix and I think those are the only two logical sites would constraints would there be on the use of the bubble though what do you mean constraints well would the bubble be the wreck departments only or would it have to be shared no I think I think I think our very very very preliminary discussion would be that the second floor of the entryway would be least based from Dorset Park Skating Association and the dome would be would be developed and owned by the city itself not Dorset Park Skating Association and indeed would encompass all the things exactly what we're talking about just in a different place I think it's worthy of discussion consideration and especially we need to know what the tax loss is tax revenue loss is on the Champlain Oil property which is a very valuable piece of land and Tony was clear he's happy to have the city use it he hates domes Dorset Street but as you pointed out it won't really be that visible from the street I'm not sure how but if that's what we want to do he's happy to work with us and if that's not what we want to do he's going to develop commercially he's perfectly happy to do that too so and we have enough room for extra parking well I don't know the regulations on that Paul just walked in can we put more parking in Veteran Memorial Park can we expand our parking there Veteran Memorial there's yes there's a lot of land so well that's not all a race question about whether there's a lot of land yeah because we have fields we have playing fields if we put a dome in we'd have to put extra parking in I mean in theory that dome will go behind the rinks and the extra parking will go immediately south of rink 1 off the circle so to speak I think the parking at Veteran Memorial is at capacity so if you're adding something additional in terms of an amenity we would be to look at additional parking or revamp of the circular parking sure but we have capacity for parking so yes this can be done and it's something we've got to take a look at and we'll take a look at it's not an emergency sometime over the next several weeks we should have some discussions and see what might make sense what happened I thought they were talking about a dome behind the skating rinks for soccer that's still evidently on the table that's the northeast that's the northeast corner that's the northeast of the solar array so to speak east of the solar array and slightly north it's back there and to quote somebody on our board yesterday they've been messing around with that for two years and hasn't gone anywhere we're not thinking about it at the moment if somebody decides well there's a private toward that end that is interested in the same type of arrangement with the city as the rinks which is the city provides the land and the private group fund raises for a dome over the soccer field so it would be a full sized soccer field under the dome and there's space for it there so that's possibility too I think the great thing is we've got lots of possibilities and options we don't want them to do what's best but I think we are committed to indoor recreation spaces as much as possible or it'll become a convertible so that's the update on that okay well there's a lot of things to chew on swirl around cook up how about the the energy required to blow that thing up well it depends how many of us blow into it for God's sake there's a lot of hot air right I know the technology is better than it's ever been before it's changed dramatically in recent years but the domes have been around in a lot of parts of the country for over 40 years they're just not in New England but in northern climates just not in the refined formats that are much more energy efficient safer, more practical etc they're multiple layers we had one down at Mount Snow many many years ago every time we had a heavy snow the darn thing collapsed that doesn't happen anymore I want to see that but they're significantly less expensive than a clear span well you had a printout didn't you send it to us that had like the cost of the dome and the cost of I want to see the how much energy are we using within the past few years somebody had approached us with the same manufacturer about doing a different type of project using the dome when we pushed on how they were meeting the energy code and the equipment they would be needed you quickly saw the price rise and eventually they said we actually can't need the code to encourage the diligence on the code that's my big concern the artifact I think the best I saw was a five good thing is warming up huh exactly she might have asked about cooling how do you cool it they cancel classes at the edge because it's not air conditioned they did last week this has air conditioning and they're not air conditioned it's not air conditioned those fans don't do so much well there clearly there clearly is a lot more discussion that we need on this but it is worth I think discussing and getting the answers to those questions I think we should follow the Amish and take some time to remember and climb up there and hammer do a barn raising a little barn raising no nails okay I think we're ready to move on to item seven which is other business and we have a warrant yep Tom so I have a copy of the warrant going around just so you can look at it and if approved I have the official signatures we mainly wanted to process this so that we could do the school district transfer tax money on Friday and Martha saw several other things just to add in that would be appropriate to pay at the same time but the major one of course as you see is the school district transfer I'll second any discussion all in favor signify by saying aye aye okay thank you we now have a possible executive session to discuss the negotiating or securing a real estate purchase or lease options with Kevin and Tom and Paul can I add to a couple of questions pertaining to both the library purchase and sale agreement and also the recreation center discussions on real estate related issues and therefore eligible for executive session okay so I move that we go into executive session to discuss the negotiating or securing a real estate purchase or lease options and bringing in with us Kevin, Tom and Paul I'll second and we have no anticipated action coming out correct okay all in favor aye so we will adjourn thanks Charlie we're good thank you Charlie and thank you the rest of the audience well additional yes it was it was a really good point I think the design folks have some good points yeah I think we I probably get screwed up with the school board but at this point I don't think it matters well they need to do it on the ballot later they need to do the ballot so I think that's why because we didn't have a dollar figure okay she was very quick to say oh we have to revise wait everything I think all you were looking for is a very simple request that yes we'd like to have this building it should be part of the greater value proposition of the whole project I can't believe our partners in government can't sit here before the Brooklyn and make a clear statement thank you for offering us this fine office building that will meet our needs at ten dollars a year I think they're doing us a favor too of course but it'd be nice to see that reciprocate we can find that