 We would not negotiate with terrorists. We kill them, says El Rufi. And on the email killings, IPOP claims to have no involvement with cannibalism. Well, this is Plus Politics. I am Mary Anna Cohn. Governor Nasser El Rufi of Kaduna State has said Boko Haram bandits and members of the indigenous people of Biafra are of the same category. He said the term repentance bandits is a misnomer and did not exist. He stated that the goal of the Kaduna State government was to kill bandits wherever they were found. Well, we'll take a listen to what the governor had to say and when we come back, we'll talk to our guests. As you know, Kaduna State government has always maintained the position that there is nothing like a repentant bandit. We don't believe in negotiation with bandits. We believe that the only repentant bandit is a dead one. When he's in the grave, I agree, he has repented because he has gone to God. God will deal with him. I will accept that repentance, but any bandit that is alive cannot be repentant. Our position is kill them all, let them go and repent to God, not to the government of Nigeria or Kaduna State. Joining us to discuss this is security expert Dennis and Macri and political analyst Biodom Showmi. Mr. Macri, it's good to have you join us. Happy holidays. Mr. Showmi, it's also good to have you join us. Happy holidays. Yes, compliments of the season. Same to you. Well, let's start with you, Mr. Macri. This is very interesting. We've always heard governors, we've heard even Mr. Presidents, we've heard service chiefs talk tough about this issue of banditry. There are those who are still asking why bandits have not been declared terrorists and treated as such. Now, the governor of Kaduna State is now back on the air talking about the same issue. For me, it seems like a broken record, but he does have a point, doesn't he? He's saying that these people will never ever be repentant. So what does that say about the monies, taxpayers monies, that the army used to somewhat rehabilitate these so-called repentant terrorists? Well, anyway, I think we are mixing up nomenclatures here. Bandits, terrorists, repentant, Boko Haram, all of them are terrorists. In fact, the court has gone ahead to declare the bandits in the Northwest as terrorists. So they are terrorists. We don't have bandits anymore. And their action, the terrorism is described from what their actions are, what they are doing to the public. They are terrorizing people. And of course, I'm happy to hear this from the Kaduna State governor, because remember, he has graduated from, first of all, trying to placate them, trying to tell them not to attack his people. Then they started attacking when he refused to pay. And then of course, from there, we graduated to him saying that even if his son is kidnapped, he's not going to pay. And the right guy has come to the level where he's saying that their own is to kill them. And then of course, God will judge them when they get there. So we've come full circle, full circle right now. And of course, from what they are doing, I don't see any reason trying to rehabilitate a terrorist. I'm believing that you forget his old ways and agree with you. So I think the governor is in order. But let it not be extra judicial because we don't want jungle justice as a law abiding or a country under the rule of law. Interesting. Let me come to you, Mr. Shoomi. Just the same question I asked him, but I'm going to put it differently. He has talked about the coming, the full circle of Governor El Rafa, of course. I would call it the metamorphosis of Governor El Rafa in terms of dealing with terrorism in Kaduna State and of course by extension, Nigeria. But my core question here is about the taxpayers money. I'm continuously insisting on taxpayers monies that the army was so certain to use on these so-called repentance terrorists. To be able to reintegrate them into society. Don't also forget that we also had a few of them, according to the army, that went back as informants to these same groups of terrorists that they left behind. So again, should we be having a panel to probe this idea of repentance terrorists and the monies that we spent on it? And why the army even embats upon it in the first instance? Well, the chicken has come into us. And I'm so happy that at least Governor El Rafa is now wiser. Because we're coming from the background of the governor that openly admitted to rewarding foreigners who were coming into the country to commit terrorist acts, attacking people and world in a Hong Kong group. And he openly admitted in one interview that they were rewarding them for whatever losses they incur. Not minding the fact that it means our borders are closed. It means they come into our country and attack people when they have no business being in our own country. So I'm glad our governor is quiet. But I will not fail to know that he's getting what he wants in the end of his administration. He's been there since 2005 and we know about the crackdown on shite and how many of them lost their lives. Now Governor seems to be playing the other script, showing the other things of the fight. So he's welcome on board if he's not seeing what's the rest of us. Back to your question on the issue of Thaspiers. The best way to explain this is very clear. Is why did we fail or why are we failing or if you seem to learn from the experience of Afghanistan. The Americans embarked on the same course in Afghanistan. One thing to move was some Taliban's waypoint. They described them as the Tantan Taliban and they were reintegrated into the Afghanistan family. Years down the line, they began to lose the war against the Taliban due to sabotage. Yet they failed to acknowledge the fact that those people integrated were actually on one part and still remained Taliban on the other part. They remained Afghanistan fighting the same Taliban. Consequently, by the time the Americans realized that there's no way out of this war other than to pull out because so many initiatives, operations have been sabotaged from within. They decided to pull out. What happened? In a very sweet manner, very fast, the Taliban, the government collapsed. Because the Taliban within the Afghanistan army simply decided not to fight any longer and allowed the Taliban, their colleagues, to move and take over the capital, Kabul. That was what happened in Afghanistan. Now back to Nigeria. Our government, many analysts have warned about the integration of terrorists. What they call the Tantan terrorists. Boko Aramis or Bandits or whatever you call them, they are terrorists. They warned about integrating them into the Nigeria army. The military decided to continue. The government decided to continue to integrate them. They were being told that they have repented. They compared them to economic sabotage. With the Niger Delta, they meant people who were simply attacking pipelines, causing economic damage. And because they were successfully integrated into the economy to some extent they felt they could do the same thing with those who are driven by ideology. You know, by Islamic toothpaste. You know, into doing what they are doing. Forgetting the fact that, that will fail. They were told they were warned before spending public money. Now we have seen where we have to be. The Nigerian army is not as effective as it used to be against terror. While at the same time, some have stated that many operations are being washed before being executed or after being done in execution. I don't know whether that is true or not because I am not a soldier. But the fact of the matter is it is just purely common sense. You cannot integrate or affect somebody driven by ideology to prepare it from his ways. Because ideology is just a totality about you. It affects your personal construct psychology. You know, you would do anything to infodrange of that position. Of that belief. If it means pretending to be repentant, joining the Nigerian army, if they appeal to sabotage, of course they would do that. We all know this. This is common sense. Go and ask the host of military psychology. They understand all these issues. So why we chose to follow that path? Spend billions of dollars on a futile exercise. You know, it's still bashing. Well, I think that that's the billion-dollar question. You could even contemplate that. I guess that's the billion-dollar question that we're all still trying to wrap our heads around. But let me go back to you. Don't forget one thing also. Nobody gave a thought to how the other soldiers will fulfill. What about their friends killed by these same terrorists who are integrating into the same army? How do you explain them to them? What about the families of the soldiers killed by these terrorists? You know, the government is not really thinking this through in my view. I think it's a mistake. I think it's a figure all and we need to pull back on it. I will come back to you on how we can pull back on it. But let me come back to Mr. Makri. It's interesting. Those who push the ideology or propose the theory of, you know, like Mr. Xiaomi said, putting, you know, the Niger Delta militants side-by-side with these terrorists at the time, or known government. At some point, they were also bandits and now insisting that they're called terrorists. The people who have been pushing continuously for amnesty, the likes of Sheikh Gumi and other people who came up with this idea, what happened to them now? Because it looks like, I mean, the government has been dragged in several directions right now. Of course, if people push that there should be some form of probe, that's also pushing us in a different direction. But we want to deal with the issue and we want to deal with it now. I'm sure that you have been following the news. You saw the northern young people who were on the streets in Abuja. They were also in the north with placards complaining about the number of lives that have been lost. So what happens to these people who have been pushing? Sheikh Gumi has been speaking very loudly lately and nothing's been done about it. Well, you know that Sheikh Gumi went in there. In fact, let me retrace my steps. You see, this particular issue about bandits and terrorists and whatever had been going through different types of spectrum. The first spectrum was that it was politicized. You know, if you go back to our history, you find that there are certain politicians who were even against people killing Boko Haram people. You know, and later they come to realize that these guys are not just good. There are people who felt that, oh, they were killing only Christians. And later, we come to discover that they were also killing Muslims. So then we started identifying and recognizing who they actually are. So when you look at it, you will find out that we are, you know, going through this undulating path whereby we really don't know what we're dealing with or we come to know about them. Gumi has been out there going and having meetings with them and, you know, coming out and postulating on different things until I think it was his own brother that was kidnapped. And they have to make him to even contribute to that ransom before they will let him go. So these are the things. But that didn't deter him. Lately, he's taking healthcare to these bandits, wherever they are, that we are not able to find them out, by the way. He's recently also taken education of sorts to these same bandits. So it seems like on the one hand he's protecting them and on the other hand he's saying, well, this is what I think he should do. So I'm asking if we have called these people outrightly and a court of competent jurisdiction has said that these people are terrorists, why is Sheikh Gumi still propounding these theories and walking free? How come also our security operators are still yet to be able to trace where these bandits have their haven, where they're getting all this healthcare and education and Sheikh Gumi is able to go there every other day? No, I will tell you one thing. Don't make any mistake about it. The security agents know where they are. Really? They know where they are. Yes, of course. They are in the ungoverned spaces and the ungoverned spaces are known. The only problem is that there are no presence of law enforcement or security agents there. But they know where they are. It's like in our literature books, they'll tell you about the evil forest. All the demons are living in there. But we know that they are there, but we don't go in there. But all the same, you'll find out that as we are progressing, I think even the military are going to re-do their, you know, re-jig their own operational orders and then deal with this. Even Gumi himself, he can continue doing that. But at the end of the day, and like I told you, when they hit his brother, it does not have much to say about it. So let us watch, because I believe strongly that this is an ongoing situation. And Gumi himself will come back to realize that you don't play around with snakes, whether they are the same ideology with you or they are not, you know, because Togi, the bandit that was arrested, he was saying that Gumi was bringing them, coming there and preaching to them and they want to come back. They feel that they are abandoned and they will feel like coming back to society. But there are fundamental issues. These guys are not Nigerians. And we cannot just integrate them into our country because they say they are going to be repented or somebody is coming to preach to them. And we have to address that particular issue. I think the governor of Kanduna State is recognizing it because they refuse to leave the country and now he's advocating that they should kill them. So we will come to a level where the whole country will know what to do with these guys. I'm wondering, and back to you, Mr. Shoomi, I'm wondering when the country will come to that point because every single day we have reports and unfortunately, and I say this with all sincerity, we have become somewhat, you know, we no longer feel that people's lives are being lost. We no longer feel, you know, some sense of humanity. They're just mere numbers now and it's become like a normal to us whether we're in the north, south, east, west. It just seems like every other day somebody is being killed, somebody is being abducted. So I'm wondering, do we have to wait until a certain part of the country is wiped out for us to come to terms with what we need to do? And why do you think it's so difficult for the federal government to come to terms with the reality of these terrorist activities such that it takes a governor of Kaduna State who also at some point was on that same spectrum with the federal government? Yes, it's sad. What is going on in the north particularly is a sad comment on our political system and our leadership because you cannot divorce how the emergence of these terrorist misnamed bandits from politics, you cannot. We will all remember quite clearly that when the election, when the campaign taking place in Kano, when Wali was coming for a second term, the president of the Jericho came to Nigeria and attended a political rally. That happened in Kano. I saw it myself. And then so many other people came into the country. We have had testimonies from those so-called dependant elites and those who have not depended, who are claiming or who told the sidekicks of terrorism that they are brought into the country used for electoral purposes and then don't. So there is a strong connection between the last election and the emergence of bandits, terrorists. So you're saying that our leaders opened its doors to these people who are killing innocent Nigerians and yet who are unable to deal with the issue head-on. Is that what you're saying? Absolutely, absolutely. I sit down the videos published on social media of people moving into the country thousands on the street through the north and nobody did anything about it. So the extent that the north is the Nigeria of love, which is very painful. So many people have died. People are seen being killed. I am pained every day at the level of killing going on in the country. That should never be acceptable to any society. We are going back to the days when life is brutish. Life is brutish where anybody can do what they like, kill and get away. We have authorities not clamping down sufficiently or adequately. On those who are perpetrating these crimes in Nigeria, for a long time we had a political leadership as killed seeing the crimes being committed, as killed seeing or refusing to declare them as terrorists even after a court said so. Let me tell you the integration of not declaring them as terrorists, which is one of the reasons why this crime is still going on in our country. If we fail to declare them as terrorists, what it simply means is that other countries in other parts of the client will not be able to cut off their sources of funding and move them on into the banking system. That is the first one. The second one is ability. The Nigerian military will be forced to comply with the rules of vacations when it comes to war. When it comes to insurgents, their hands are not shackled because they are fighting insurgency. But when it comes to banditry, which is essentially a policing issue, the Nigerian military is not trained to put it, rather they will face so many cases of human rights abuses if it keeps saying there are bandits that this is the job of the police and not the job of the military. So what it means is the military cannot move people on the strength to deal with the situation and protect the lives of our people in our own country. So the federal government must, as a matter of urgency, turn the line of the court, obey the decision of the court and declare them as terrorists. And failure to do so is what is leading to more lives being shared, restraining the military from moving in to deal with these criminals and terrorists who are misnamed. Finally, let me... We know where this issue is from. We all know where it is from. We know there is a link to politics today and we know that people may not want to get rid of them simply because they may need them for another election. So these are the facts of the matter and these are issues that need to be addressed. The fallacy of government is to protect lives and property. So the federal government needs to, as a matter of urgency, declare them as terrorists and allow the military to do the job. Okay. Back to you, Mr. Makri. Let me just digress a little bit. We've had, in my journey as a journalist in this country, and in recent times, I'm talking about from 2014 till now, I have recorded several where guns, ammunition coming into this country have been either seized at the port or somewhat found in the middle of town. And the most recent one is the one that the customs officials saw at the port. Now, as we speak, we're yet to know how many guns or what is actually in those containers. We know that they are ammunition, but what is the status of the... Whatever is in that particular... The boxes that were seized. Again, we need to understand where these guns are coming in from, whether they're going to these same terrorists... I mean, because at the end of the day, it ends up in the hands of these terrorists, unfortunately. Because every single time these stories come up, we sensationalize them with scream, blue murder, and then it dies off. Nothing really happens, but there is a trail. Why have we not dealt with that issue? Again, Mr. Xiaomi talks about plugging where these resources are coming in, the monies, the people who are sponsoring. Why has the government also refused to publish name and shame and prosecute those people who have been said to be financiers of these terrorist activities in this country? UAE, a country that does not even have any business with Boko Haram, with terrorism, have caught a couple of these people, prosecuted them and set them to jail. A country that is actually feeling it the most is keeping quiet about it. Does this not worry you, sir? Yes, it's very, very worrisome. And, of course, let me put this in focus. In Tin Can Highland, 2017, a container load of pump-action guns were seized. And, of course, the importers were arrested. The guns were handed over to the DSS. And then, of course, right now they are in court. My own problem is that our court systems are so slow. So slow in the sense that it becomes a situation where after a while everybody will forget about it and nobody knows about what's going on. Even advanced, the kidnapper. His case just came about some two, three weeks ago where he was sentenced to death. And then by the time that result, the judgment came, many people have even forgotten. In fact, some people will be asking you, who is advanced, you know? So this is the problem we have. Slow criminal justice system. And then, of course, the last one you're referring to that was intercepted was not a container load. It was a container carrying about two cars or so. And the guns, AR rifles, which were concealed inside either the doors or in the engine or something like that, those were recovered with a lot of holopoint bullets and stuff like that. So those are two different things. And I'm sure that the security agencies should pursue it properly. I don't like the idea of even going to the press before the people were arrested. You know, they should have arrested them, interrogated them before they called the press to come so that we'll have a better idea of who these people are and why they are bringing these things into the country. So these are the issues that we get around these days. Well, I want to say thank you because this is a conversation that can go on and on and Nigerians need perspective. We're about to round off this year and of course 2022 is the campaign year, getting ready for 2023. How do we have free fair credible elections in a violence-free environment if we cannot deal with these issues that are already spiraling out of control and trickling into these parts of the country? It's a very serious conversation that must be had continuously no matter how difficult and how tough it is for us as a people. But I want to say thank you. Dennis Amakere is a security expert. We also want to say thank you to Bioto Showmi, who is a political analyst. I want to wish you all a Merry Christmas. Merry Christmas to you. All right. Well, thank you all for staying with us. We'll take a short break and when we come back we'll talk more on Plus Politics. Stay with us.