 Good afternoon, everybody. You're most welcome to the IIEA webcam on the COVID crisis and gender equality. This event is sponsored by the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade. We are very lucky this afternoon to have with us a very distinguished speaker, Evan Rechner, Chair of the European Parliament Committee on Women's Rights and Gender Equality. You're very welcome. Good afternoon. Hi, good afternoon. To the audience, you will be able to join the discussion using the Q&A function on Zoom, which you should see on your screen. Feel free to put your questions during the presentation and they will be taken up afterwards. Everything is on the record and the event has also been livestreamed on YouTube. If you want to follow on Twitter, then you use the hash line at IIEA.ie. A short introduction to Evelyn. Evelyn is a member of the European Parliament since 2009, and previous to that she worked at the Austrian Trade Union Federation. She has had extensive experience in the Parliament and has been returned on three occasions in the elections. She has served on a special committee on financial crimes, tax evasion and tax avoidance, and is Vice-Chair of the Committee on Legal Affairs. At the moment, she is with us of her expertise on the gender issues, and as I said earlier, she is the Chair of the Committee on Women's Rights and Gender Equality. Evan, we're so looking forward to hearing from you. It's a very topical issue and over to you. So I say excellent afternoon and thank you so much for this invitation. It's an honor and it's a pleasure to be with you this afternoon. I'm looking very much forward also to the exchange and would like to start straightforward with the following remark. There is no equality between men and women. There was, there never ever has been real equality between men and women since the beginning of mankind. And this word mankind already shows it. It's not human being kind, it's mankind. So we are living still in a society where we haven't achieved equality concerning the rights of men and women, and even if the situation concerning the rights has been very much approved in the previous decades, it is still the stereotypes that are present. And right now we are living in a very special situation, an unprecedented crisis, something we didn't know, we don't know that, what we had been confronted the previous months, and insofar we see the COVID crisis sharpens, deepens these inequalities that are already existing. And therefore, the conclusion has to be we have to work on making these equalities smaller. And so I'm coming straightforward to the work of the committee, where I have the honor to chair that, the Committee of Gender Equality and Women's Rights in the European Parliament. The COVID crisis showed from the beginning on, will the agenda, will the agenda of women's rights, women's rights and fundamental rights be posted into the future. Right now we are talking about the most important things, we're talking of all those billions and billions, 750 billions we have decided on Wednesday in the plenary, though we haven't decided, the Commission has presented it and we debated that, to be invested in solving those problems of COVID. And will the women's, the equality agenda be postponed because this is soft material and we do that in the future. And the answer is no, exactly because of this situation, the inequalities are sharpens. My committee and my committee, we are dealing with the gender equality strategy that had been presented at the beginning of March, more or less the beginning of the COVID crisis, and the gender equality strategy. I'm very lucky that it had been presented by the Commissioner Dali, put on the table measures that should be taken for the future, for the next, for these periods. And now the big question is, and was, will all those measures that are so necessary to overcome inequalities be postponed? And the clear answer, and therefore I'm just focusing right now in the beginning, what are we doing in the committee? The answer is no, just on the contrary, the Commissioner Dali, very committed, is going on with her work. The Commission's system is working, everybody is digitally really quite updated. So no reason to postpone, no reason to postpone what the strategy on violence against women that was and is always on topic and is even popping up far more right now. The strategy concerning having binding measures concerning the gender pay gap and the gender pension gap. So we need transparency measures, we need something in overcoming all those gaps that are existing for decades and decades and since mankind is existing. And of course also to do measures concerning empowering women to in the leadership, so the directive on a gender balance on boards, men and women equally represented in the economic sector. So, I mean, of course, also many other measures, but this is the focus and the committee will go on with its work. That's very important because right now we are debating on the Commission's work program for the next year and there wasn't is the dangers, everything is overlapping, overlapped by the COVID crisis. And on top of that, we started with our work that is the very updated work that is right now with a special report on the COVID crisis, what is the COVID crisis and the impact on women. And they're also focusing on health, focusing on those running and maintaining the system. So 75% of them are women, we know that the socioeconomic effects, so women pushed back 50s picture of childcare and running the household and doing telework and more or less puts put into the back. So all those issues that are coming up right now will be taken on board and of course many others than I've mentioned right now. So the message is the work is going on. We don't let push each other into the corner. And I think that that is a very important message. We're working also in a gender mainstream structure. So concerning the impacts, the particular impact of COVID on women as frontline workers on women in the home on gender based and domestic violence. I said that we are confronted with an unprecedented crisis. So when inequalities are deepened, we also see violence is going up. So we have so many figures from different countries concerning violence, what is happening at home. So we see the doors are closed, people are in their flats. And this is a big danger for democracy and of course it's a danger for the freedom and the rights of women as well, because what is happening if a family being under stress, children have to be at home. They are running around homeschooling has to be taken place. So when the situation appears that a society is under stress. Of course, one can foresee that violence is going up. I heard today, the actual figures from Spain 61% going up. So domestic violence is already a huge issue. So it's already in the past that we have two thirds of the society having been of the women having been confronted with violence at home. So somehow we are not talking about a minority program. And now we're getting the figures. We know in Italy 75% the health lines were going up. Then they're already, then it is already in, in other situations, health lines of other countries from UK, we just heard once it's going up 180%. But I really have to say that figures are differing. So we get different numbers because all those NGOs that are offering support sometimes are also really lacking. And this is something we got to know staff personnel because everybody is under this special situation of stress. Seven millions of unwanted pregnancies are estimated due to the corona crisis. Also because in many countries, the access to SRHR is restricted. We get information. This is something I didn't know so far. So it's quite new that especially sex workers are strongly hit by this and due to many of them working in very unsafe and even in free conditions. They have been facing enormous repercussions. We learn that in Italy, Caritas is providing them with food and shelter because no one else is taking care. So those being at the edge of the society, those suffering often of a specific difficult situation are confronted in this situation, even with more difficulties than they do anyway. And of course, the rising numbers that are emerging right now are not happening only in Europe. All this is happening worldwide. I was in contact with so many representatives in Malaysia, in Latin America, I'll just say in the United States, so more or less all over the world, we are confronted with a similar situation concerning domestic violence and domestic aggression and difficulties for women going up. So we know while it's mostly men who rule the world to govern it, who lead it in enterprises and of course also in the governments, it's women who carry it. Women are making up more than 75% of the workforce in jobs of systemic importance. I think everybody has seen the pictures is clapping for those working at the care of elderly people, those working in the hospitals from doctors to nurses, those being in the childcare sector, those being in the supermarkets, those being in those areas that are really important for maintaining and running the system. This is something we learned. And now we see of course also, these are exactly those sectors that have to be tackled when we are talking right now of the gender equality strategy and the gender pay and pension gap. In those sectors where we have a huge segregation, where we have this segregation where we see it's mostly women and it's mostly women in jobs that are really paid very low. So the question of minimum wage, the question of the pay rise is so important. In my home country in Austria, but also in Germany, I realized that there is already sort of little revolution of all those women who say, it's very nice that you're applauding. It's very nice that you're giving us flowers. It's nice that the bells are ringing at eight o'clock in the evening, but we need support, we need a pay rise. And above all, when doing a description of the situation, those are tackled most. Of course, it's single mothers because they are just having the full person portion. On the one side, there are those being at home who should do homeschooling. And at the same time doing telework and how can you do that. And of course, the running the system cooking and cleaning and so on. And then of course, there are also those as I mentioned before, running, maintaining the system to have to go out. And it's not the grandmother anymore who could take care of the children and the care system is also in difficulty. So here we have and here we had really difficult situations. I'll just give you one example, because as a trade unionist, I'm also very much in contact with works councils and with those really telling me what's happening in the enterprises bigger and smaller ones. Of course, we have those been unemployed right now and having been confronted with insecurity, but also those working in enterprises, they are still very well functioning and they are demanding the work of women. And many women said no, I can't come to the job. I have to take holidays. I have to take unpaid care. I have to whatever because I have to stay at home and I have to do the homeschooling. And that those enterprises something that had been confronted with taking temporary agency workers. So somehow we really have women being confronted in with very difficult situation, far more than men. And what is happening as well. And this is something that is very important that we really would like to discuss with you afterwards. Those stereotypes. We have right now different sets of situations that are taking place at home. I was looking already at those studies that have been made and I'm very interested in those situations that are taking place at home. Because I was asked many times, but isn't it on the other time a chance that the situation is getting better when right now men are at home doing telework and women are at home doing telework. Isn't it something that men are learning. Oh God, we should do also the schooling for the children and it's so much work with the home. And somehow when you're getting used that you the both of them are at home that the situation is getting better. And here I learned also from the observations of so many with whom I was in contact and I am in contact and also from the first studies I could see we have two different situations. Yes, there's a little bit improvement in several areas, but then we see something else as the economists view sometimes that you negotiate. So if a woman is earning more money than a man, so maybe they negotiate that the man is also doing more homework at home. But in many areas it's not happening because it's not only the homo economicus that is acting, we have these stereotypes. So in many of these cases, I got to know also from the first studies, it's women and men doing telework, even if women earning more than men or even if they are, they are having the same salary. But nevertheless, automatically women are doing more of the homework because it has always been taking place like this. And one doesn't reflect it. It's simply happening. It's simply happening. And I think with the with the research work, we really need more data. We still need so many data that are lacking from violence and also concerning data concerning all of these figures in order to have closer research work on what is happening here. So not only from the economic point of view, from the legal situation, but also from the sociology, from the psychology, because here really a lot has to be done. Otherwise, we find these steps ourselves in the picture reality of women who are thrown back to the 50s cooking, cleaning children and on top of that, telework, if this is a job a woman can do also concerning talent. So what can be done and what has to be done, the situation, and that's right now my job as a politically important person, we always looking on the solutions. I start with violence, violence, domestic violence is a situation that has to be tackled at once. It is already tackled with many good examples. Why I say that right now, when everybody is at home and the figures are rising and situation is taking place, we also have to act quickly. And we partly really acted quickly. The solution has to be unbiocratic, pragmatic, quick, and really at a very low threshold so that women who are confronted with domestic violence really can also see whether it's the solution. First thing is, you are not alone. Many women are ashamed to tell that there is domestic violence campaigns can really help a lot. Portugal is a good example. The government started very quickly with a campaign, but this is something that is taking place many times the same way the Spanish government. So here with campaigning, raising awareness, we can do a lot. The European Parliament itself gave a good example. In the European Parliament, I mean, most parliamentarians are working right now from the home countries. There are some buildings that are more or less empty right now. And our president of the European Parliament gave a good example to say, let's offer shelter to those women who are kicked out from their parents who have, you know, parents from their partner, ex-partner who are in a difficult situation. We give the hand, we offer shelter. The canteen we have in the European Parliament was transformed into the canteen for women who are suffering of domestic violence. This helps 100 women, but on the other side, it's also a symbol. It should be a sign and a good example to so many other local governments, communities, and to show you can do something. And many others took this example as well. And I think that's something very good. We have in Belgium, in France, also in Germany, empty hotels that were opened for women who were looking for shelter. And when you get something to know like this on TV, as a woman who is suffering, then you know there is a door where you can, that is open where you can go. And this can be also something that is good for prevention. So there are many unconventional solutions, also the help lines that are offering help for women have to be and had to be supported financially. So some governments were more generous, other were less generous. We have really a couple of countries that are acting great. I give you one example as well. And I think these things should be always contagious that work quite well. Germany, in Germany, we got to know from the minister, they just said it has to be a low threshold because women who are suffering of domestic violence, sometimes they don't have a smartphone, the partner, ex-partner, whatever, is taking it away from them. So how can they communicate there are serious problems. So it was printed on the packages of milk in the supermarket. The supermarkets in this time, one of the few places being open, you go there and milk is really a very, a product more or less everybody is buying. And we just have here the phone number of the helpline, please go there. Then this was really a good tool, also concerning the feedback we got so far. Other good examples, you go to the pharmacy and say a keyword, COVID-19 mask in Spain, but also in Belgium. So there are, and they wear good low threshold measures. And other excellent example I got to know from Wales, that there is a special person responsible in the government for dealing with these issues and being the link between the authorities and the political government. So this is also something institutionally works well. So there are many measures that can be taken and they are taken, and they also results have so good results. But we see from several other countries, we simply ignore the problem. So we just got from several central and Eastern European countries, that simply nothing is done, that the whole problem is put under the table. And this is sometimes exactly also those countries who say the Istanbul Convention, a convention of the European Council that says there is a ban on violence against women should be ratified by all European countries. So that it's specially mostly those countries that don't want to ratify that and don't see any special explication with that, that those countries don't really do something. So concerning the measures, what can be done against domestic violence, very pragmatic quick measures right now, but also in the middle and long run measures of the legislator. That means the ratification of the Istanbul Convention and also measures in law at the European Union level, so that there is a special criminal definition that it's a crime by to do violence against women. So we have to introduce that also in our, in our criminal law. And this is something we are asking right now at the level of the committee and the commissioner of course is also supporting very much our work. I tackled the topic of violence. Of course they have to be done many, many other things. We have to go on with legal binding measures tackling the gender pay gap, the gender pension gap. I mentioned it before it's part of the strategy of the gender equality strategy and we expect the commissioner to present a proposal at the end of November and we already preparing very carefully how and where this could be. The unpaid care work is an important issue. Women, it's mostly women who are doing this work that is not paid, but it is so important for maintaining to run the society. So educating boys and girls can help as well. I talked about the gender stereotypes. This has to be an important measure. And also this was turning up right now with COVID. What about the mental health? People suffer under isolation. We don't even know what's happened with the post traumatic mental problems that will pop up. So this is also an important issue. Trans people have to have continued access to medical treatment and abortions, hygiene products and protection has to be affordable and accessible for every woman. So you see I'm just doing a parkour to so many issues that will be dealt with in the next time and above all, and with this, I would like to finish because I think there should be also a lot to be left to have a debate afterwards. The commission proposed the proposal concerning the recovery funds last Wednesday. So this Wednesday to two days ago, 750 billion euro. This money has to be spent half for women. So half of it. There's a petition running where we say the whole principles of gender mainstreaming have to be applied when distributing this money. We have to say that more loudly because the commission is obliged to apply the principle of gender mainstreaming. But if we are not insisting on that, I just can assure you there is so much blah blah and it's always said that it has to be monitored. Also on what's happening at the national level because there are really several governments who ignore so many things. So when we're talking about women on boards, women in the leading positions, there are simply no measures by several countries. They simply ignored it. We realized in the crisis so far that countries that are run by female leaders, they do good. And this is not happening by chance. So we have to be very much aware that the money is spent in a gender sensitive way. This has to be done. And right now I'm also fighting and we are just looking how it can work. Also to set up vertically special women funds where specific measures should be done because there are several problems like domestic violence. There is really, first of all, a women's problem and there has to be more sensitivity. So with these words, I would like to conclude my introductory remarks. So in your introductory overview of the activities we are focusing on in the European Parliament and where we need as much as possible support from everywhere. So from all European Union countries, from all parts of the society, from men, from women, from academia, where we expect especially to support our work with a lot of data. We are still lacking data. The Gender Equality Institute is doing an excellent work, but we work, but we need more. And insofar, I'm looking very much forward to our discussion we could have right now. Thank you. Thank you very much for that Evelyn. I very much liked your idea of the contagion of good ideas and good practice. It was very interesting to hear what was happening and what is happening in other countries. At the same time, it's very depressing that no one was surprised that there would be an increase in domestic violence as soon as we had a lockdown situation. And that situation with domestic violence is as prevalent in Wuhan as it is in parts of Africa as it is and there is no difference. And that is really quite astonishing to me. Can I ask you a question before we get into the debate? You seem to be very complimentary about the Commission strategy for the next five years. Is there anything there that, is there anything not there that you would like to see included or is there anything there that you would particularly focus on improving? Yes. Thank you very much that you raised this question. Our main Commissioner with whom we are working is Commissioner Dali, the Commissioner responsible for equality, so equality for men and women, but also LGBTIQ strategy, Roma, so the most vulnerable people. We agree very much and have the same focus, so somehow I really can say there is an excellent cooperation. We always need more support from the member countries, that's what I have to say. But where I, and I think many of us would like to have more support is, and that's the Commissioner, I think she wants it as well, but she has to work hard on that and the Commission is binding measures. Yeah, we're always fighting and having binding measures. It's very nice when we are going for, for example, when we talk about the gender pay the pension gap. We need systems where there are also monitoring and sanctioned systems in there. The more, the more voluntary the whole thing is that will be proposed. I mean, it's not proposed yet. The weaker it is. We, in the just two days ago, I heard by chance, a presentation of a study from the Hans-Böckler-Schriftung in Germany. It was just driving my car, I listened to the news and it was, it was, it could be heard even in Belgium, who made an overview about the representation of men and women and the proposition of enterprises, and they made a comparison of the legal situation and, and how the facts are and that said, those countries who have sanctions, those countries who have a legally effective systems, whether conclusions, when you don't follow the rules, there will happen something. There will be a sanction. Those have really the most balanced leadership in enterprises. And this is Norway in this case, and then, of course, also more other Nordic countries. And there was really a comparison. You could see the more voluntary measures are the less they are functioning and when there is nothing that there is also nothing. So if you would like to have more women in top position, if you would like to have more women in political leadership, you have to do something legally. You have to do sort of a quarter. And the same is with, if you want to eradicate the huge differences between, between the salaries of men and women and the pension gap, then we have to do measures. If we don't do that, it won't come. It doesn't come because people are smiling and like women and are nice to them. No, it doesn't happen. So, and this is where we would like to have stronger measures from the commissioner. She wants to present a proposal concerning the transparency of salaries. Transparency is always very important because if you see the salaries and make them transparent, who is earning what what for and where are the objective gaps and it's very something that is not justified at all. It's an eye opener, but an eye opener is an eye opener. The conclusions have to be then, okay, we do measures that introduce systems of sanctions if the, if the objective criteria are not followed. And here we want more. Thank you for, for that response, which I think is right on the button. And the question here from a new Fallon who's research at the Institute. Do you see opportunities there in the new areas of work or the new ways of working in remote working. And we already know in Ireland that the pandemic has thrown up the issue of childcare. Do you see that going at a European level? No, I mean, if there is light, there is shadow. So telework is, how should I say, it couldn't, it's, it can be very nice at first sight. But what I learned so far, now from the content from the data from from also from from the exchange with different women, it can be a trap. Yeah, we have different situation you have the single mother who is at home who does the homeschooling or who is suffering that there is not enough childcare so childcare is a very important key in order to overcome the pay gap to overcome the teleworking difficulties. So we see the situation of women trapped there doing telework that should that looks nice but doing homeschooling and when they're doing the telework when it's result based at night after having brought kids to bed or I mean it's always a question also of the age of of children. So single single mothers are in a specifically difficult situation. Many of them have already used all their holidays. So somehow they have the problem right now this summer what to do with the children because when they don't have any more holidays. So somehow this is this is difficult. The second the second danger I got to know is also the danger of of telework that is not registered when it's result based. So many, many are working far longer and don't admit that working that they're having far more working hours than than they obviously have. So somehow they say I'm working four hours to reach this result on the computer and then it took them eight hours for example. Third thing is not to be it's getting more and more difficult to be organized and to tell the difficulties that they're existing. So trade unions and works council are telling of the trouble that there are so many troubles popping up and that there is a lack of exchange of communicating all these troubles. So there is a lot of danger. There are also good signs no going to work. I mean that you don't need the time to go to the office and to come back. So somehow there are of course obviously and real advantages and what I see is also the problem of part time work. So telework could be maybe a positive feature but can be also a difficult feature and then finally we also have the problem of the situation. We have to make a difference between the lowest skilled and the highest skilled telework because it's always a question. Can you organize yourself or are you organized from your employer. So can you are you are you the one who are you the pilot are you the one who is who is directing the whole thing. Yes or not. So therefore I don't want to say there is only negative things disadvantages but there are quite many of them and we have to tackle them. So it but it can be a solution for the future and I'm quite sure especially in the highest skilled sectors. It can be also a chance for women and I underline three times for men to do more telework to do it maybe twice a week and then to go three times a week to the office and then also to take back a part of the shared homework. Thank you. Thank you for that. Two questions on violence. One is from David Joyce from the Irish Congress of trade unions and he says it's good. The unionist in the role you are playing and he asks whether you would agree that the early ratification of the new ILO convention on violence and harassment in the work and the in the world of work is part of the way forward. And a question then from Mary Cross who's an IEA board member and her question again it's about violence. This is a very I think it's an issue as the EU any leverage to get member states to strengthen legislation on violence against women. Strong legislation for police service to act is crucial. I really have to say thank you very much to both of them. I learned that so I learned that the topic of violence against women is really a huge topic because it is it seems to be so far that this is a topic. We didn't talk so much about that but it is taking place and there are different levels of violence. It's not always hitting. It's also sort of psychological psychological terror. So there are different ways of suppression and concerning the feedback I received so far it is a huge topic. It is a huge topic and therefore I'm so grateful that we are talking about that about something that has been always put under the carpet and and and puts into the background. I allow convention a clear answer. Yes, because it's not only a topic in the European Union. It's a topic worldwide. I learned that in many countries outside Europe, it's getting even stronger because of the huge informal sector. When you have a huge informal sector, the pressure on women is even more and my cradle my I could really say my motto as a chair of our committee is financial and economic independence is the key of equality for women. It is the best defense, the best tool in order to avoid violence against women and when a woman says okay, I'm economically independent, then it's easier that she says goodbye partner. I don't rely on you. I go and take my kids or kick you out. So there is another self confidence and therefore we have to support women always always in the economic financial independence above all, somehow also to look when we look at the pension gap. So many elder women, they are still completely exposed to to to already for decades of subtle or even less subtle violence. Concerning the measures. Yes, at the European Union, there is, I mean, there, there is the, the Istanbul Convention, a convention for my point of view every country should rectify very quickly because it's a convention that isn't from my point of view very revolutionary revolutionary it's a ban on violence against women and that one should do prevention measures and that there is a responsibility of the governments to act on that. There are still eight member countries who don't want to rectify that and the commissioner had indicated and we support her very much. If it's not happening that the Istanbul Convention is ratified in the next months. The commission will propose a strategy to tackle violence against women, and then we have rules at the European Union level, and we start to demand in order to be very precise on a paragraph that should be introduced based on the article three of the EU treaty that that that that it's that it's a crime. So somehow women's rights are fundamental rights and it has to be introduced into then from the European Union's law into the national law and when it's in the national law the member states are really obliged to to work on that a couple of countries. I mean my country as well. So the minister of justice, but then improve the situation concerning and this is the criminal law of the from every member country and we can work on that also in the European Union's level. That man who is attacking women so many many countries have criminal law rules in this regard can be forced by the police. I'm sorry I'm not finding the right way right now in English that the police and the authorities can force the man to leave the home and to that he has to keep a certain distance to the home in order to keep the women safe so that he's not allowed to track her and this is something we can sharpen and can improve the work of the authorities to be better because in most cases the authorities are working too slowly and women are sometimes waiting far too long that this measure is taken. And we've seen in Spain Spain is a good example in this regard that simply speeding up the obligation of the authority to react quickly saves lives of women that it reduces even the number of killed women so somehow it is really helpful for women and it. I mean we don't want always to talk about family sites. Violence is also very strong. Yes, is my answer. There will come up something from the commission. Yes, we are defining very precisely what can be done also in criminal law. And what is important of course then that the countries when we do that also implemented in an effective way and therefore we are asking also for the proper monitoring of the measures that will be done at the national level. Thank you. Thank you for that. And the next question is from Claude equine who's an eye researcher and she mentioned that you discussed the role of the commission and asks how do inter institutional dynamics effect gender equality legislation at EU level. I noted myself that you've been quite critical about the way subsidiarity is used as an excuse for doing nothing. So if you could combine your response to Claude's question with question I have for you which is, why is it taking so long and why is there is opposition to membership of boards being more balanced than it is presently. There isn't a quick answer. Sorry for putting all this out. No, no, this is really, I mean, you know, you, you, you take over really a very, I mean, this is something, oh God, I'm fighting so long for that. I mean, I can, I mean, when the proposal of it was at that time vice president's reading concerning a proper balance, both representation of men and women came up. Of course we could explain very easily with legal arguments that there is a responsibility and that there is really a legal base for this proposal why for many years. The commission tried with voluntary measures with CSR with I mean all sort of very nice things to raise the number of women on boards. It didn't work. It didn't work at all. You had a couple of enterprises who used it then as a marketing strategy. And that's it. We realized also that those enterprises who have workers participation work better because then, at least at the board level, the workers representation side is sending women but this was really so slow that I mean, we can really see. You know, I have a daughter that is 13 years old. I don't want to talk with her and she's telling me then when she will be not and I will. I mean, when she she doesn't young people are impatient why should they wait for another 100 years. So there is a clear legal base for for work at European level because at the level of the member states, you can say nothing was happening. It was happening, not enough in order to raise the figures. And those countries who said yes, they see the legal responsibility. They have to do something. They also have the results. It's very interesting to see that so somehow if you introduce objective criteria if you introduce something that is treating men and women equally and not always overloading women with an obstacle. It's working. So why is this. I mean, I think we are here still who are the leaders of countries who are maybe following stereotypes. I can't oversee that there are no objective criteria. There is no objective criteria. So it is not in the in the competence of the member states when they don't do the homework. The European Union has to do that. There is an added value. We have these provisions in the European Union's treaty when you look at article two and three when you look at the at the at the values when we look at what we are what we are obliged to do when you look at the very clear provision that there should be equal pay for equal and equally worth work. So we have all competencies. I just can explain that as it is so many times. These are the stereotypes that are still existing and therefore to tackle the stereotypes. Those things that are invisible that are existing in the society, but that we are even not aware have to be overcome and therefore come back again. We need so many data when we have data and they show there is no objective reason for this for these inequalities. That's the best explanation to to to work on that. I'm sorry that I can't be more precise. I'd love to get more arguments also from research. I really when I looked at so many studies I really draw my conclusion. Many things are based on stereotypes. Well, actually, the next question is the next to last question, but the next question is from adien Murphy, who works at the National Treasury Management Agency and she asks in countries returning to work and in dual working households. Has there been any data gathered or is there data being gathered on who in that household is returning to the workplace. No, I just I have to be very brief. I can't say that yet. It's too early because many countries are still in the full confirm all. So some of my home country, Austria just starts slowly. But what we see that there is a big interconnection between schools opening and schools not opening. So when the schools are not opening, so it's women staying at home. That's what we see so far from Austria. I have been in contact with many teachers and those running the directors of schools. And they told me there is a huge and again we are talking about something that hasn't only to do with figures but also with the pressure of the society. That especially in the countryside or in little towns women are regarded as terrible mothers if they are going back to work and the kids are staying at home or if they are taking even if they are taking the services of care that is offered so in some areas you just have the care. But it's only when it's offered a couple of children who are going to school or taking or who are really taking the opportunity to use the care office because the social pressure in the background from the people who are living in the surrounding from the family from whom ever is so big that one can't let the child go to school and take option of those possibilities and then it's normally and then it's the women and this is something I was told by really quite a bunch of directors of schools who said it's really the women who are suffering and the mothers are suffering and the situation. So this is not figures I can offer this is the political situation and landscape so the experiences that have been transported to me. Thank you very much. And so I have one last question and I'm going to throw in a question of my own. I know you've been very generous with your time so we won't press upon it. Ney Fallon has asked what particular challenges would you anticipate the EU's green and digital and transitions posing for gender equality. And my question to you is what can women expect for the convention on the future of Europe. Besides words. Thank you so much for these questions. Concerning. It remains a huge priority for it was a lot on the line. Of course we have to to be careful with our economies. Europe has to be strong. We want to be strong. Then we also can a strong economic Europe can also better defend its core values rule of law and equality of men and women and of every member of the society. The ecologic and the digital challenge are those big goals that remain. And here I would like to draw your attention on artificial intelligence. No AI requires that we're looking very careful at men and women. Because what we see right now if we're not taking care from the beginning on of the developing of all those systems. I mean some of them already existing women are really treated badly. There are so many stereotypes also in the system. So a computer is learning. We just learn all that and there are so many things. So for example, when you go when you go to when I go to a website. My name is Evelyn right now. So somehow and I'm on Facebook. Then I just have on the on the site. It's all these advertisements and so on. And it's not only the beauty saloons and whatever they're offering something. But sometimes you have also job offers and and so on. And we compare that and realized with specialists. If my name was not Evelyn but if my name was I don't know Frank. Other offers are popping up. So somehow computers are learning computers and learning. Of course they are neutral. Of course the whole artificial intelligence from the starting point is neutral. But the world is not neutral. And why because the world is not neutral. All these inequalities are enshrined and overtaken from the very small technical details to the very big things or I just give you another and if there are job offers for a I exaggerate right now running an enterprise are popping up for a man and for a woman to be the cleaning woman there. This is really something different and we even don't know that because it's always personalized or to give you another small example and these are really very small example but they are blowing up the whole system and making huge differences concerning who is running the world in which way and that has to be taken for the whole conception of artificial intelligence as well when I'm going to a website of a bank for example. And I just have to have my account and going to the whole thing. It's always popping up first. Mr. And I have to click it away to come to the miss. So somehow a woman already has for this very simple thing like going and having look on her bank account one click more because I have to click the man away and to come to the miss. And this is really a super small not important detail. And when you just look at the whole system, we have to be very aware and it's already happened. We know that it's already happening that it's not only not gender neutral. What is going on in the system is also looking if you're brown or if you're white if you're elder if you're younger. So somehow that inequalities are not insurance and this is and this is also a huge challenge. The next one is on women in these whole. We do a report on that. So somehow we work on that women in the digital services women in the women researchers women professionals and all these equate inequalities that have to be taken on board. So this will be and this is already an important part of our whole work. And so we are aware of that. But there's really a long way to go. So we need the technicians we need the we need those being aware. I mean, I would like to have more sociologists and psychologists also in politics and in the whole legislation in order to do the proper screening on on what what it's going on and concerning the ecological path we have to go climate change. I just also give one example we are working on that simply to tell you yes it is enshrined in the work not only of my committee but in the gender mainstreaming network that it's happening in all sectors. We are saying what means climate change simply to give one example for the public transport who is taking the Trump and who is taking the car who is taking more. The who is willing to in to go on more for the public means also in the future the trains and so on and who not. And then of course you know what the result is who is how the situation is right now that we have to. And we are doing that the to take the gender perspective in all these areas on on board as well and that men and women are learning from each other and participating in the same way and I just can tell you in this regard who is running who is looking in a household for example. When men and women are living together that one should maybe not that one should put on the solar energy and be more aware we know from the from the data we have so far women are the one in the household to doing that so or more doing that more. So of course we have to take this perspective as well in the whole future and how how we could improve and do our part for the climate change. So as an answer. Yes, we are aware of that but it has to be done exactly in all those areas and I just tell you I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm writing and close contact. Also with Commissioner Hans for example who is responsible for the for the for the budget for the European Union's budget that the principle of mainstreaming is applied. And this is good for the climate for the fight against the climate change and this is good for the for the for the digital work and so that this has to be introduced everywhere so somehow it's a bit complicated but the crucial thing is member states have to apply that as well. So the Commission is doing better and better but member states have to do that as well. And concerning the future of Europe. I would like that the debate starts soon. We asked already, is that right now postponed yes or no. And what can I say the 20 I'm I'm I'm always an optimistic person even right now when we're in the COVID crisis and with all this mess, the 21st century is the century of women. I'm convinced of that. And I think it's not bad for for men just on the contrary. Work-life balance is one of the key words. Work-life balance is something that not only women want that also men want for a four hours week. We should work on that. We are right now thinking how could we how could everybody bring everything under one hat. It's more sharing and this is not only positive music of the future. It's something where we have to go to go with the digital revolution and the productivity of the society and on the other side, so many unemployed of the others. It's a share of working time and a share of leisure a share of work and of life. I'm convinced that exactly this issue will be a huge issue also for the debate of the future of Europe because we're debating already on the minimum wage and more and more with this COVID crisis also the topic of the unconditional income is coming up. So these are issues for the debate of the future of Europe. Well, thank you very, very much. And it only remains for me to to wish you all the very best in your work on our behalf. And what you do, it's very much appreciated. I think all over Europe. Thank you very much indeed. Thank you so much. I really I like that very, very much to have this exchange with you. I hope to see you soon. So thanks a lot and have a good weekend of Whitsun.