 Welcome into the original gangsters podcast. I am your host Scott and Bernstein Hey Matt with along with my partner in crime the doctor himself Jimmy Bucci Lotto Hello, and we're back man. We were in Los Angeles last week Yeah, we were attending to some business in La La Land Jimmy and I were helping out a new history Channel project that's fronted by Larry Fishburne known as history's greatest mysteries and Our episode that we helped out on related to Jimmy Hoffa Should be rolling out before the end of the year So we're back in the motor city now. We're back in Motown and we got a very special guest for our episode this week. He is a Decorated former g-man Who was one of the biggest undercover? FBI agents on the east coast during the 2000s and in 2010s same as Giovanni Rocco and He helped bring down the decal vacante crime family, which is the Mob in New Jersey that the the Sopranos is based on and he went deep cover into the real-life Sopranos for At least three years maybe even longer than that. We're gonna get him to tell tell us his story and the bust came down in 2015 and brought down a capo regime in the decal vacante crime family and I believe In in his undercover work He was running with some of the major major players in that crime family and was getting exposed to Not just capos, but but bosses and John the Eagle Ridgey who is? You know pretty legendary east coast Godfather was around at this time He's passed away since then, but I know he played a role in some of the drama that Mr. Rocco was Investigating and in part of his infiltration. So thank you for joining us Giovanni you are we are we are honored And it's a pleasure to have you that's a pleasure to be with you and thanks for that strong intro guys I really appreciate it. Yeah, so before we jump in let's just tell everyone and then we'll remind them at the end You wrote a book called Giovanni rain Giovanni's ring all about your life undercover and Your time infiltrating the New Jersey Mafia So you can buy that wherever books are sold. I got my hands on it right when it first came out and really just devoured it and in a probably about 72 hours got through the whole thing and Me and a couple other mob nerds Remember being up late one one one night one o'clock two o'clock in the morning And I'm online and we're we're kind of going back and forth with the tidbits that had come out of the book You know, just you know looking for needles and haystacks, you know, because sometimes For for the mob nerds, you know, some of the general Information that books put forward is more for kind of the masses But then when you get the guys that really study it we're combing through each page looking for little new Nuggets of information and there were quite a few Great great anecdotes and great insight in that book So thanks for writing it and thanks for coming in and Sharon coming to the OG podcast and Sharon with us Your experience obviously as an FBI agent and then your experience authoring that book Yeah, thank you so much and I appreciate you reading it and taking the time I did write it with my co-author Doug Schofield and intentionally made it to be a fast read Because if you have an attention span like me, I don't have enough time to sit there and read a long book And I didn't want to make it a historical book So it's just a pretty cut-and-dry about my life inside the real sopranos That's why I got Giovanni's ring my life inside the real sopranos It is the New Jersey mafia based on a decavacantes, but it's also just a sopranos and as a general cosonostra as a whole Yeah, and some of these guys Literally served as inspiration for some of the show the sopranos obviously the the pioneering grind groundbreaking mob show that HBO put out in 1999 last little 2007 you know changed television forever and Brought us the the introduction of the anti-hero really flipped the the traditional TV show paradigm on its ear and Brought, you know the quality of cinema to your cable box and a lot of those characters while not directly based on guys like Vinny Ocean Joey Tenier and and Charlie the Hat John the Eagle guys like that they definitely served as Kind of fuel for David Chase's fire because David Chase grew up around the the decavacante Family not not the fact that he was in it or his family was in it But he grew up in Newark and those guys were were kind of running the city at that point now We have a movie that's coming out this week actually his premieres on October 1st The many Saints in Newark, which is the the prequel film to the Sopranos, which everyone's really excited about so Sopranos is definitely Buzzworthy again, so Giovanni. I'm doing way too much talking here Let's just dive into the story of you and just tell us about you know growing up and deciding to become Member of law enforcement and then how that took you into undercover work And then let's kind of lay the foundation for for your your big Operations that that made you the star You know star g-man that you became I Appreciate that. Yeah, well, I guess it's a great caveat You were discussing the whole Sopranos versus the real Costa Nostra and I grew up in the 70s in New Jersey I'm born in you know early 70s and I came up under those guys and I'm familiar with them So I think you know matter which way if you argue the case who the Sopranos based on it's just Costa Nostra in general It doesn't matter pick a mobster. They're all pretty much similar They're not cookie-cutter some of guys some guys are more ruthless than others the guys that I was around like Charlie to hat He was ruthless He was you know willing to do the ultimate D like so many older guys were that I knew growing up or was around and exposed to I didn't aspire to be a gangster. I didn't emulate them I just had a lot of exposure due to the fact that I grew up in Bayleon, New Jersey That's in Hudson County right outside of Manhattan, and you had mentioned earlier about You know half of being buried in his speculation that he's buried by you know in Jersey City under the Pulaski Skyway Where we played and grew up and you know so there's so many ties to the real-life mob That I identified with it I think that kind of added to the reason why I was able to do what I did and work my way into these guys without Wanting to aspire to be a gangster. I'm third-generation My grandfather and fourth-generation first responder, but my grandfather my uncles brothers you know a lot of family married into me and They became police officers as well. So I had a lot of law enforcement on one side on the other side of my family I had blue collar guys That just worked on a dock so worked in companies were truck drivers And I had exposure through through that way as well old-school broken guys I was around when my uncle was a truck driver and I went to work with him not knowing which way my life Was going to go. I was the black sheep at a family. I never aspired to I always wanted to be a policeman But because I was in so much trouble as a kid I didn't think I'd have to make it there my family begged me to change my evil ways I was running in the street and I was doing stupid things And they kind of assumed that I'd be a debtor in jail by 25 And it was a I knew the exact moment. I wanted to be a cop and I wrote about it in the book I watched my father make a collar on the way home from watching the movie in Jersey City And he saw a guy that was wanted and pulled over the police car and you know took it down He's an armed robber and I knew by watching him do that and that's what I aspired. I always good versus evil I always took the good guy side cowboys and Indians. I picked the I wanted to be a cowboy. I wanted to be a hero. So I Guess in my senior year high school. I had no direction in my life. I didn't know what I was going to do I was fortunate. I cut out of school one day and I took a test to become a New Jersey bell phone repairman that even exposed me more guys in the mob world because the area that I worked We're all gangsters. It's the old school guys That had social clubs and I climbed the pole and I write about it in the book where you know It seems like everything lined me up to do this work I would climb a pole to fix something the guys who have come out of the social club They didn't know whether I was law enforcement or whether I was working for New Jersey Bell and my bell And I was you know, maybe putting a tap on their lines or a camera on the pole So they literally calm me down. So I was interacting with these guys on a regular basis and just growing up, you know, my father was a well respected cop and You know, he tried to steer me clear the streets. He would show me Photographs of homicide scenes suicides body parts that floated up in a Newark Bay or the Hudson River or someplace where he was working And he's a homicide and he bring me bring the autopsy photos home Just to show us and I think he did it to harden us a little bit and not even played a part in what I did later Because again to play a hard street guy, you know, these guys could smell it. They're like dogs They smell it. They're like a bunch of pit bulls. And if they smell fear or they smell any paws in you, they will The exposure I had my father raised this hard and fast That all played a part in as well So early in my career, I took a Liking to narcotics work and I made my way through narcotics very quick. I got my gold shield I was aggressive in the street with my partners and I got a chance to from narcotics I was called in early to do some undercover work and given a chance and I ran with that and that was my love Uh, I think back and you know, I listened to jack Garcia and I share an affinity with him The old 70s movies, uh, you know in the old cop movies that we used to watch and But thing was when I watched uh reservoir dogs, that's when I knew I was going to be another cover I watched the scene of reservoir dogs where the guy was another cover cop and I knew that was my passion I could feel that fire burning in my stomach So I knew that's what I wanted to do with my career. So I went I went head first into it Every chance I got I never said no to an operation as crazy as it was Or as insane as it might have been that I put myself in situations. I thrived on it That was my my adrenaline was my drug. That was the thing that I chased I became an adrenaline junkie. So anytime I kicked in the door I wanted to be the first one in the door. I was young. I didn't have kids I didn't want any of my partners to get shot and I always wanted to be the first guy through the door God forbid something happened. So I lived my life that way And then when I got into undercover work, I lived what I learned in the street I didn't have any official training and I was doing some crazy stuff with the DEA And I wound up being asked to do in the task force there. I did the DEA for a few years I had a couple of kids. I got married and divorced You know cost my because my my relationship With the job and my relationship with my true family I was too young to balance the mental health of it and the processing of what I was doing You do get a little bit of hollywood. Everybody tells you you're good at what you do And it kind of boost your ego a little bit and you you start believing in nonsense So I took a step back a little bit and then I had the opportunity FBI came calling And I went to their training and I did some training with them And it was a very difficult school I went to and I I did well in that school and I graduated And from that point on that's when I learned what undercover workers really about The psychological part of it the mental end of it the mind games How to read people the right way how to understand how to communicate effectively How to de-escalate something it changed my world and opened up this I was able to do international cases at that point I could work You know without saying spy cases or anything with anything that came my way I can do it as a street guy You know and my persona wasn't a kid from New York New Jersey an Italian kid You can't wash that stink off of me It's in me it's on me and when I went into situations whether it was cartels Whether it was a Russian mob guys or whoever it was They all believed who I was because I wasn't trying to portray somebody I was just being that kid that if I didn't become a cop I would have been a street guy and I would have made a damn good street guy And that's what I portrayed myself to be and I never changed that So because of that I was able to work my way into different cases People would call me into their case if they need bona fides And that's how I built the reputation in the undercover community with the bureau Didn't uh if I'm recalling correctly your book Was it your persona uh your undercover persona was uh related to the biker world? It was yeah so early on you know a lot of my uncles were into bikers and Had ties into a couple of different street gangs and spin-offs of other omg's Outlaw motorcycle gangs like the big the big Um they were like little sister clubs that my uncles were in And uh because of my relationship with my father when I was younger We didn't really care for each other that much. Um, he didn't have too much love I didn't have too much love for him until later in our lives So anything I can do to go against my father and anything I can do to go against authority when I was younger And what better way than to go the way of a biker So any chance I got I bought a motorcycle. I started riding young again into Harley-Davidson's I was I really wanted to ride around with my uncles and work on tow trucks work on cars and just be I wanted to live that persona just to rub my father a long way in a kind of a way and I got sucked into it a little bit and explain to the explain to the listeners how and we've talked about it uh at times uh throughout our uh podcasting career but there there is a kind of a natural nexus between Outlaw motorcycle gangs and the Italian mafia now They seem like they're completely opposite sides of the criminal spectrum, but they actually have a symbiotic relationship and a lot of cities both within america and and even in you know in canada and other parts of europe Where you have italian officers working, you know in very close Business relationships with bikers, can you kind of illuminate some of that? Sure, I grew up watching that I grew up seeing it and I also saw it after I came on a job Um, I was probably exposed to stuff that I shouldn't have been exposed to on the job But as a young kid, I saw it the guys in my neighborhood were the old school gangsters before John Gotti was John Gotti And before he became the Teflon Don in my neighborhood. There was a guy, uh, John DeGilio And Johnny DeGilio was fighting a case back then and he was a bayon guy He ran the docks and he was a he was pretty heavy hit And uh, he was the guy who fought the government first and really he got he went up for trial and he fought it And eventually his own guys whacked him out And it was actually a bayon cop a retired bayon cop that whacked him out and you know as a member of his crew But I watched those guys I watched him interact because my uncle knew people and because I was exposed through him And then I watched things that the cops were doing because again, I grew up as a cops kid So I was exposed to both sides of defense My father would have something or I would see these guys interact or are going to bar with somebody I watched these guys interact and it was a big strong and I grew up knowing that the bikers collected for guys Especially in my neighborhood in Hudson County. Those guys were the ones Sometimes they would put money in the street for the mob The mob would give them money and these biker guys who didn't have two nickels to rub together They were putting money on behalf of the mob or the mob put the money in the street They didn't want to collect themselves because they knew if they you know, they got caught they take a pinch for it So they get these outlaw bikers to do it And I saw it after I came on the job I was working construction on the side for years when I was in narcotics in the young cop and one of my good friends Who I was working with I didn't know he wound up taking a loan from a guy And he wound up in a jam because these bikers came to collect and it was so called Friends of his and guys that he knew and it turned out he went to the mob and took a loan from the mob And he got a knock at his door and here what he's outlawed these outlaws would had to collect So, um, you know, I saw it in many different occasions. I saw it and it still works that way today It does nothing change and in New Jersey right now. They have a Kind of all hands, you know, we're digressing a little bit, but uh in New Jersey right now They have an in terms of law enforcement and I'm sure you know this there's a kind of an all hands on deck mentality for What's been going on with the pagans? the big motorcycle gang in the southeast and since This guy by the name of conan the barbarian rickter took over the family Or took over the the organization. He's been Championing this expansion effort where he's spreading The pagans brand not just up and down the east coast, but he's going west and into the pacific northwest. It's very um It's it's it's a very real-time Power move by by rickter who's actually on his way to prison now um, and has named a named a temporary successor, but uh, I just wrote something recently about how he put a he put a pagans chapter in Washington state There has never been pagans Out in the pacific northwest. He's got uh, he had he put he put chapters in Oregon Washington, Oklahoma, Nevada, texas, arizona, so And and the pagans work very closely with the italian. So I know that was a quick digression very close Yeah, no, no, that's okay. That's a great. It's a great, uh explanation because do you know it as a chapter of the pagans in Elizabeth, new jersey, they had a headquarters for years. They've had a headquarters down here Yep, and they do they're used by the mob. They're you know, they they work closely together They're aligned. Yeah. Yeah, they're very much aligned the ones that I know the pagans are aligned with You know, the joy marlino crew in philadelphia, uh, yeah, philly, uh, north jersey lcn Right and I I knew both sides. I knew the outlaws and I knew the gang guys Um, so that's the persona that I took because again, it is my true life I was around some guys that were hooked up in both sides of the defense Uh, so I understood both both ends of it as a young cop I still had when I I even remember going on the job so much so that the outlaw bikers I knew through my uncle We were in a tow yard the day before I went to the police academy and they said they goodbyes to me and actually asked me You're really gonna and I'm not gonna tell you what club they're with but it's you know, very close to what you mentioned And there's always been a turf war and these guys asked me you're really gonna do this You want to be a cop? You're gonna go that way you're gonna go to that side of the fence. Yeah, that's what I'm doing I made my decision. That's what I'm gonna do and they made it very okay So from this point on you understand you're on the other side So, you know, there's not going to be any, you know, shucking and driving anymore with us It's not going to be an interaction like this is it and we really had cans of beer And we toasted each other and cheers and wished each other good luck and then I went my merry way You know, I bumped into them over the years and they knew when they crossed my path if I had to collar them up I did and occasions I did so I understood both sides of it But early in my undercover career, that's the persona that I took I was an outlaw biker Because it was the first long term undercover. I ever did in the early 90s I had infiltrated some associates that were high level associates to a particular club in the new york area And I never made my way in there was a guy actually at the time There was a guy into the club that you mentioned the pagans and he was another street cop from a different department And back then we didn't do task forces. You weren't loaned out. You stayed in your area of responsibility You didn't leave your city And you know because you're bad said you worked in whatever city you were in Um, and then he and I infiltrated at the same time Was a little bit deeper into where he was and I was making my way in and that was the first long term I think that was about three to four months at the time And that's how I got noticed by the dea And from there it was you know come on board with us and I started working undercover with them And I grew my beard long and I had the braids in my my my beard I had the hair down in my ass and I had the earrings in my you know And I took on a persona for a number of years so much so when I was with the dea In my first marriage and I lived in bergen county, new jersey My neighbors actually reported me to dea for being an outlaw biker and a drug trafficker So, you know, it's good that they believed it. You were living it But it was kind of like, you know, I was living it, you know, and it does poison your brain It really does Because on the one hand you start to you start to Buy into that not that you're gonna they're never going to corrupt me pick my side But the cops start to look at different and that takes us all on the two isn't undercover You know, they um, they come at you each way And it's fun. I mean, there's some just human nature aspects of it. I mean sometimes it's fun to be a bad guy And I'm sure you can get kind of Uh, it's intoxicating it's alluring it's something that seduces you It is it is and the deeper you go The guys that don't understand that are fbi agents or dea or just cops in general They start to distance themselves from you because then they start to make snide remarks You know, here you are doing a bang up job and and you bleed blue just like them But then they start to say hey your friends Your friends want to go to a long dinner tonight. Uh, what are you doing? Why'd you take so long at the meeting you're hanging out with your buddies? These people aren't my friends But you understand like you you're getting it you it's easy to go down a rabbit hole sometimes for these guys If you don't have the training that I at least Or I saw both sides are early in my career It was all self-taught and I made a lot of bad mistakes. I got myself Almost killed a few different times Um, but it wasn't until I was more mature and had that training And then I looked at it from a more mature standpoint of an undercover and what another cover should be And looked at her from that mental game Uh, it's a game changer, you know, it's like being in the minors versus the majors So it makes sense the that law enforcement would um exploit this natural relationship between the bikers and the Italian mafia because not only in Giovanni's case, but I know with um, Jay Dobbins like And he was atf. He He convinced the hell's angels that he was a biker but a collector for the italians and they bought it Like because that just makes like that's not Unheard of right? That's like that's a something that is common. So they they bought it Yeah, and me I was fortunate then I learned again. I infiltrated bikers. I infiltrated russian I infiltrated asian organized crime. I infiltrated the black panthers all is Giovanni Gatto You know, I never I never went into my closet and changed it to my biker clothes and put my cut on or You know put my fake tattoos or my hair. I never did that Everything I did later on my career was always the guy I am right now talking to you This is who I was and I was able to go into all of these different organizations And they all bought into it, you know, because everybody believes a mobster is who he is But I never claimed to be in a mob. I just let them make the assumption that I'm a mobster You know, you you turn it up. Sometimes you have to turn it down to a two It's it's just like the volume on a radio either. I could turn it down to a two or I could turn it up to a 12 now If I go too far The bad guys or the targets they might think that I'm a stone cold killer And they could actually be afraid of me. I've had that happen with subjects And you don't want that in the court You don't want to play those tapes where you know, so you've got to dial it back a great distance You know, I have guys and girls saying to me you you kill a lot of people you've done a lot of bad things No, no, well, why would you even think that, you know, so then you realize they're the criminals I can't make them think that I'm more of a criminal than me So um, but having that organized crime versus biker thing I was able to use that that's in my real life and I used it in my my cases So the russian mobsters you were dealing with and street gangs that you were investigating They all were under the impression that you were either an associate or a member of kozenostra That's the impression they were under Correct. Yeah, just an Italian guy from the neighborhood I I lost the persona of being an outlaw biker when I realized that the government was going to pay for my High-end five-star restaurants and I could stay in high-end hotels instead of sleeping on the ground under my bike Then I really quickly realized You know what I like this persona a lot better than then some piece of trash in the third that's sleeping on the ground Under his bike because he's trying to stay warm. Yeah. Well, I could Giovanni, so did your infiltration of the decalvacantes, which I believe started through a guy a street guy by the name of jimmy smalls Did it did it begin in your uh, Giovanni gato role and then you transition from that the further Up you got, you know up the criminal chain in in the decalvacantes or you know, how did that evolve? Yeah, that's just uh, the jimmy smalls I was introduced to him because I was bona fides I was brought in Like I said because I had this think on me So I was asked to come down as bona fides to a narcotics deal that somebody was doing another agent And I was just backing him up on a deal in Atlantic City And I showed up on a saturday or sunday night and it was late and I needed to be home And I was really super ticked off that this guy was running late, you know, and I was tired of getting Sorry to sit around waiting. I had already ate dinner. I'm watching the Yankee game You know past time. I got it. You know, I got a a long ride home from Atlantic City to get back to North Jersey Uh, I'm getting ticked off and when this guy jimmy smalls actually showed up with four other guys or three other guys I was my genuine pissed off self and He took it and ran with it. You know, he thought we were gangsters He came up with this whole persona that we were he actually went back into the neighborhood and said that he had met Bruno scoffal guys And that we were connected guys from Philly He made this whole thing up in his head because he actually thought we were mobbed up guys Never told him that we were never indicated it But I guess just because what I said before I had it turned up a little too high and he bit Um, so no big deal at that time. I didn't care, you know This wasn't an organized crime case. This is just a drug case that I'm going to put this guy to bed quick We'll get him past the threshold and we'll put him to bed. Um, you know, he was a career criminal So it wouldn't take much to do that and not realizing that that case would spin into Meeting other people and then eventually becoming what was this trolley horse and being trolley stangling and and then infiltrating into the Cavacentes, you know, it's interesting this guy. We've talked about this before about what uh, Jovani's talking about is um They're they're actually doing the work for law enforcement because what you and I have talked about that in other organized crime groups Whether it's irish gangs african-american russian, whatever bikers. There's real currency to being affiliated with italian with an italian mob Guy, so like they did the work for him. It's the gold standard right because they that's what they wanted to believe They wanted he wanted to think they're doing business with sonny corleone Right, so or Tony right, so he's going around telling people that even though Jovani didn't even say that but like it's like Like i'm running with made guys connected guys. There's right. There's currency to that Would you say that that was part of it? Jovani like the the the currency in the underworld that if you're running with the italians that that's still You know sort of the gold standard Sure Yeah, it absolutely was so much so that you know, and I let it ride We decided just let it go and believe what he wants if he wants to believe him, you know If he wants to leave him Tony Soprano, let him believe on Tony Soprano, but it came back to bite me on hand That was the first time something came back to bite me on hand because as the case went on I had to answer for that That came back to bite me in a bad way because when I was around the real guys They wanted to know who I was they wanted to know because they they heard that I was connected Now I had to play stupid connected to what what are you talking about connect like connect for what are you talking about? Like I really had to dumb it down, you know, we talked about connected. I don't know Well, you're with anybody you connected you wait who who represents you we're talking about it represent myself So I really had to be that lone wolf biker guy A well dressed one we talked about I have no idea what you're referring to I have no idea what you're speaking and I made him explain it to me And then that's when I explained it away. No, I am almost awful. What are you talking about? Nobody ever said that you ever hear that out of my mouth that I ever say that to you Why would you say that? No, and I had to play stupid and you know, you had to answer that because now What if there was a war? What if you know, what if there was a problem between the two families and then you got involved in it? So I had to be very careful in the beginning. Yeah, I mean it's in a precarious position But it sounds like you were able to cover that because you you never actually told that dude You were connected. So and that way, you know that you it sounds like you were able to explain your way out of that Because you never said that in the first place I was because it was it. Yeah, it came up when I was introduced to louis louis giola veri. That's the first time it came up How does jimmy smalls get you to a at that time an up-and-coming decalvacante? Soldier who eventually becomes a cop. Oh, I believe louis gi louis the dog Oliveri who was very close to john ridgie, right? Right, so I'm dealing with jimmy for a long time We know jimmy's related to a guy charlie stango charlie stango is in prison He's in prison for murder at the time and he's about to be paroled. No big deal Jimmy has no respect in organized crime and look in costa nostra. He's nobody He's a street kid from elizabeth new jersey was ties to everybody and their mother He's got ties to the street gangs the the bloods or whoever crips. I mean kids fall over the map Um, but he is blood of charlie stango and uh, so he goes back and tell in the neighborhood and tell in louis And then louis comes knocking on the door and basically when everybody starts to see that this kid jimmy is making money And he's doing work with this guy giovanni Of course any mob guy wants to know how the hell are you making money? You know you you couldn't make money at a lemonade stand. What are you doing? How you making money? You know and then he had to say well this guy and then all of a sudden, you know, it it happened that Louis wanted to meet us and then that happened and then if the louis met us He had a lot of questions and I dodged those questions fine and we and then before you know it Luigi was really good with his money and again like any businessman You know jimmy jimmy tried taking some shots at us and he tried beating me He gave me some bad product in the street and I was able to give it back as I explained in the book Uh, one of the supervisors in the bureau really stepped up and after a few lab results And we realized there was no control danger or something this stuff that he sold us He was a street kid. He tried to take a shot at us And that's when I explained to him. Are you crazy? You know, are you out of your mind? You know who I'm giving this stuff to and then I kind of alluded to the fact that I was selling my stuff That I was buying from him from outlaw bikers Listen, I'm not worried about it because these guys they're not going to kill me They're not going to come after me. They're not going to kick my they're going to want to know Who took a shot at me and gaming is and jimmy I don't want to give up your name You know, you got to make it right. So because I played it that way in the bureau let me We really had some real bonus fetus in the street And I guess a year had gone by and I was banging around with jimmy and and then louis buying stuff from me Louis was always good with his money. We never had any issues Uh, and then the bureau, you know, the bureau started deciding well Continue on with jimmy now put jimmy on her back burner deal with louis, you know, okay We're gonna deal with louis now louis the main, you know, okay, so we'll focus on louis do you like one thing that uh That I noticed when your book came out and we had heard a louis name When when the bust hit but Both louis and frankly charlie were not Guys that at least for the public they really weren't on anyone's radar the way that 10-year scalfani or uh John rigi or, um, you know jimmy dumps palermo guys like that That had been kind of staples or known uh You know known players in the decalvacante family it seemed like It and and obviously and we said this before on the show, you know, the mob Doesn't put out press releases doesn't do press conferences when you know new guys are coming up to the ranks and getting promotion and whatnot, but We're was the bureau in new jersey aware of louis alvarez status and then eventually Charlie the hat status, um Before you started getting intelligence on them we did we had a lot of intelligence on a family over the years Throughout the 90s in the 2000s my supervisor in the bureau Anthony zamponia and again the stars always allow they they aligned for me in this case It was crazy how these things happen Anthony zamponia wound up getting transferred from new york into the jersey division And he had a history of working all the families when they were at the peak Over new york and he worked the decalvacantes and he knew of charlie. He knew of you know sand the plumber He knew viny oceans. He worked all those cases He knew of the unsolved homicides and all the open cases that that the bureau had been looking at and still do Um, so charlie stango was a gangster's gangster and always has he's been on a radar for a long time And it was because he was off the radar because him and ray tango These guys are i mean him and ray tango were like, you know I don't know the rumors that that that movie tango and cash They were like, you know, they were like that You know charlie and ray tango wasn't charlie was serving a pretty long prison sentence Before you were encountering him, right charlie was serving a prison sentence for the murder of billy man in 1981 He brought billy him and a couple other guys brought him to a meeting at the charidan They whacked him out there in the interim of killing billy They wound up shooting one of the guys in a car with them with charlie and he caught a round I think in the shoulder They dumped a car Um, you know, they left billy billy man was dead in the street in the back of the charidan I don't see a car because I think it was and They left him dead They crushed the car. They didn't get rid of the car in time. They recovered the car Pino the guy that got shot He went to the hospital to get treated and then he he flipped and then charlie was actually doing time He went on the lamb for a year charlie was on a run for a year And they were looking at him for some other cases that they were trying to put on him And then he went on the lamb and then he actually tried to whack out pino for for turning state sevens against them So he caught the murder rap and then he caught the conspiracy to commit murder So he was doing time for that talk about meeting him and get introduced to him. Yeah, that was crazy So, uh, when that came jimmy said to me listen my you know by that time I put in jimmy on a back burner and um, I started dealing more with louis because that's what they wanted And you know, I always do with the bureau told me to no matter what and you know I took the case where they wanted me to take it and they wanted me to focus on louis and doing so jimmy got jealous And wanted to one up louis. So he came to me one day and he says listen I know you're doing making money with louis But you know, you should be with me making money because my uncle is a captain He or no, I'm sorry. My uncle was a soldier He says he's getting out. He's a me guy and again, I made him explain what he's talking about, you know He's he's gonna be a captain when he gets out. I said your uncle's a cop playing stupid What do you mean your uncle's a cop? He goes, no, my uncle's in a mob. He's with the decadence He might explain the whole thing. So he did it to win me over And then he wanted me to meet his uncle His uncle, of course had gotten out and the bureau we knew Actually, you know the bureau knew of the day Charlie was getting made to capo. He got out of prison as a soldier And then he was brought to a hotel in New Jersey And he was made a captain at the ceremony when he got out of prison because he served his time Riggi bumped him up Yeah, Riggi bumped Riggi was the one who sanctioned it because anything at that time Riggi was at a jail for his rico and murder charges. He was older though He was he was looking to pass the torch at that time, right? So charlie big is mojera had a part in it and a couple other guys and his consulate had a part and then his street force So at the time riggy was still calling the shots And you know charlie got out of prison realized, you know Like any gangster how am I going to make money finds out that his nephew is doing pretty well And I guess he his nephew asked him and he's no I want no interest I'm meeting anybody. I'm out. I'm fresh out of prison. But then as he hears I guess he had reached out to the gambino guys and asked the gambino guys to look into us and then, you know Again, it's all explained in the book, you know, they looked into me and they checked me out on behalf of charlie I got called to a meeting answers to one of charlie's associates So he vetted me first and then eventually when charlie was comfortable. He said to jimmy, okay You would your friend come and see me. We went to the union plaza diner I met this guy and you know, again, I I've never it's very few people in this world that walk this earth that intimidate me Or I you know, my heart starts to flutter. But when you look into those He has ice cold blue eyes crystal blue eyes and you know, he couldn't be more of a gangster in the persona that I know And up, you know, the old school street guys. That's what he was did riggy like him Sure. Well, he came up under jojo forara. Oh, he came up Who was very Yeah, he came up under jojo jojo was was and I know this because charlie shared this with me over the year He came up under jojo forara and there was a lot of things they did And he was a go-to guy when riggy needed stuff done charlie was the guy, you know, charlie always reminded me Giovanni, I kill more people by accident You know, I kill more people by mistake. Don't worry about it He was a you know, he he was a self-proclaimed killer machine and he didn't care, you know He didn't and he had a reputation for it and he was used. He's known across the country I knew, you know midwest guys knew him out on the east coast on the west coast He knew all over up in canada. He had connections all over because he's a gangster's gangster You know, and he's a true gangster in the sense that it wasn't a viny ocean That wanted to come up and shine and be in the spotlight like the john goddies and be the hollywood legends They weren't those guys the real gangsters the guys that stay on their radar and you're referring you're referring to Vincent Palermo aka viny ocean who was a nephew viny ocean sam decalvacante who was the the namesake of the family and He was a nephew by marriage. I think I think he married decalvacante's niece or granddaughter Correct, uh, and he married in viny ocean became an acting boss in the late 90s And eventually flipped but there's a lot of people and i'm interested in your take on this Uh, there's a lot of people that think that he was kind of the main archetype Inspiration for tony soprano because he was around the same age strip club lived in the suburbs. He had a strip club that he ordered out of Had kind of a family in the suburbs while running the new jersey mafia Yeah, I don't know. I I think of any and you know the time with him You know not with him, but I I know all the background of him But I don't see him being the inspiration for tony soprano. There's so many other guys I don't I've never once thought. Oh, yeah, right. I get it I don't look at tony soprano and look at viny oceans right the strip club is there There is a strip club to meet markets that the Satrials is you know, there's a real life place and there's all of those things exist viny oceans didn't bring that to the table the strip clubs have been there since john briggie You know, it was a young guy coming up in this Ross was acting boss When riggy first went into prison And frank garaci is how louis maintained his status louis was a driver for frank garaci While he was the acting boss while riggy was being held down in prison And now that's why when luigi is that no go ahead. I was going to just add some color that both Um garaci and riggy have died in the last five six years Yeah, yeah, yeah, uh riggy was old. He wanted to pass the torch. He was getting out of it His son mani riggy was louis captain at the time And that's how louis had gotten his button louis wasn't a made guy louis was uh Just an associate like me when I met him and then because he would kind of show up every day Meet the old man come to the house hang out with his captain and and the boss You know, mani riggy and john riggy and then eventually and I know this through charlie You know, eventually mani riggy said to john riggy his father like listen pop before you go Before you pass the torch you should make this kid louis. He's honest. He's with us his whole life He grew up in this and and what happened was rumor has it that riggy feeling he got more juice He was respected by the five families because of all the juice that he had He make his own rules. He doesn't have to follow close to those rules. Yeah, you know what I'll bring I'll make them right now. Bring them in here. Bring them in the bedroom And he brought them in and he broke all those rules There's there's There's protocol for when a guy gets made that they have to go and they have to go to all the different bogatas with a Piece of paper and they want to make this guy and they want to make dr. Jim They want to make scott. They want to make Giovanni and somebody you're usually a career or somebody who represents your bogata We'll go to the other bogatas to make sure nobody on that list is having a problem anybody And maybe they'll go and maybe one or the other bogatas will say, yeah, you know what the guy givani We had a little bit of an issue a couple years back. All right, we're not going to make him right now It's just like corporate america So we're not going to promote you right now We're going to wait another six months and see if you come back clean and we'll make it But with louis there was none of that John riggy thought he waves the he waves the flag I make the rules bring them in here. You want to be made bit that you there you go You're a may guy your soldier And because of that guys like big ears mushera whose father was at the appellation meetings Who if you remember viny oceans did battle with big ears mushera and they were going to kill each other You remember the story about viny oceans put a hit on charlie So charlie mushera he was the likely candidate to step in and take torch and take the throne from john brady So this is what I had walked into not knowing all this was going to go on when I came in a lot of politics I know, you know, then Yeah, a lot of politics and then you got i'm with the i'm with the biggest lunatic in the family the biggest Murdering machine charlie stango who they call him the hat because he used to say to me You know what I call me hats like that that movie with the guy from rocky You turn the hat on backwards and that was it that was my switch or if I took my hat off somebody was going to die That's the things you used to say to me. That's why I call him charlie the hat So that's the guy i was with so when these when these two sides of the family There was a divide and louis and his guys were on one side and whoever whatever bosses and then there came an event That louis embarrassed somebody and it was tinny that he embarrassed at a christmas party And then that was decided that the administration didn't want him around anymore They wanted a boot louis the the dog Yeah, they decided, you know, I was already in by then So louis louis took a liking to me because we were making good money together And I had gone down to his his social club. I had been to the The rubber club, but I was smart enough to never go inside. I didn't want to pin myself down So I stayed out of the club and and then when charlie came around The bureau then turned around says, you know what put louis on the other back burner of the stove And let's go after charlie. So now i'm on what i'm going to blow off jimmy who is now Luckily for me jimmy went into prison on another unrelated charges But the problem was he got out really quick and people started suspecting he might have been a rat So that is a bad that shines a bad light on me and it turns out he didn't he just you know, he got out He got out on bail But it didn't look good because I was an associate here. So I have to explain that away What happened at the party that was like a faux pas or something? Did he touch you put his hands on someone or something? Yeah, so when louis came in the door The story goes and I got from You know, there was there louis comes in Ten years is sitting there with a cane. He's an older gentleman now, but he's still that old gangster that he is and Ten years turns around and pokes him in the belly And he makes a comment about his weight And then he makes a comment about louis weight starting to say he says you're starting to look like your brother Who is extremely overweight? And louis took offense to that in such a way that he just blew a gasket And I guess I you know in louis defense maybe because He was like a nephew to most of these guys and he came up in it and he grew up in a neighborhood Maybe he thought he could just go and blow off some steam, but he came at him Uh cursed him out had a couple of vulgar things to say about people and then actually made a comment You better be careful because by this time he already got he thinks you got his button nobody's acknowledged him as such And the problem was he says you don't even know who you talk to You know everything's gonna change you old guys and he made some really really derogatory comments And put himself in the jam and uh, that didn't sit well with the old guys These guys that we're talking about the the charlie megeras the charlie stangles the the gangsters gangsters that didn't sit well with them because The og's this one's a county og's party This was grandkids nieces nephews wives cousins This was a family gathering and then he's dropping f-bombs and doing what he's doing making a barrier You know bringing this to the to the surface and it didn't go over well So that was that that wasn't the reason no total reason, but it was the beginning of the end for him That's a big violation of protocol. So is he on the shelf right now? No, I don't think so. I don't know. I haven't asked and I haven't you know, I'm not around it much I try not to keep tabs on these guys too much. Um, I don't know and all the speculation and and I know i'm I'm jumping ahead of ourselves and we'll go right back uh In a second, but the the belief amongst at least mob watchers is that uh charlie big ears imaginary is The boss now Would you say that's accurate? Yes, he is Yeah, he is and uh frank garachi died And john riggy died. I think they died in 16 and 17 maybe 2016 2017 um, yeah, uh Riggie died right after I came out uh and How old is mani riggy? I think mani riggy I don't know how old he is, but you know what he might have passed away as well I'm not a hundred percent sure on that but he was an older guy because because we're not talking about he was older. Yeah, he was No, if louis was in his 40s mani was probably 60s He was older because john riggy when he passed was in 91 or better. Mm-hmm. Yeah, okay. So then let's talk about uh just Getting in good with with charlie the hat. I mean you were with him a couple years before the before the bus came down Yeah, so with charlie when I met him at the diner, um, he You know, he was in my face and you know sit next to me come here and sit here Uh in the interaction I had with him that day He he he wanted to meet me he wanted to put eyes on me and at the end of the conversation We had uh lunch at the union plaza diner. He did a couple of things that showed me what an animal He truly could be and what a sociopath he could be And um, you know, he almost spat Food all over me. He ordered a um, pastrami sandwich and had too much fat in it You know, and he's fresh out of the can this guy, you know, he was held down for a number of years So he had no etiquette and he just you know spit the stuff all over and there's a gambino associate Who he called to this meeting because he wanted that guy to bring me to him And uh, you know, basically say look this guy looked into you You know, you were you were you and my nephew were doing you know, I'll allow it to go on for the time being But you know, we'll see what happens. I just want to meet you and they explained to me goes, uh You know, I'm on parole and uh, I'm not doing anything. You know, I'm sticking. I'm staying clean Uh, I live in florida. I'm here in new jersey, but I'm moving out to nevada and me as a as a law enforcement guy I'm scratching my head going wait a minute You're on parole and you're flying all over this country like you don't care Right, you know, who's your p.o. Like are you kidding me? So he goes, so I'm moving out to nevada. Maybe I'll call you Maybe I won't we'll see And that was it. So nice meeting you mr. Gatto Have a nice life. Maybe we'll talk. Maybe we won't and he went on his merry way And it was a couple of weeks went by and he decided okay, you know, I'm gonna give this guy a call And then jimmy called me up one day and said listen, you know, go buy a burner phone And my uncle wants you to call him on this number and then from there it was very slow It was like a dating relationship and getting to know you and uh once he he felt he could trust me Everything was great And then one night he had a nightmare I write about in the book. He had a nightmare I added a blue everything was going great. We were getting to know you kind of phase and He left me a message Whatever you and my nephew were doing. It's illegal. I don't want ever want you to call me back I went nothing to do with it and do yourself a kid. Don't ever call me back I got that loud and clear. I speak jersey, you know, don't ever call me back And uh, that's that was it, you know that's a wrap, you know, either it's a wrap Or if you call you're gonna be wrapped up in a rug So, uh, it's a wrap case over and uh, you know, but I knew there was something in my gut And again that you follow you got with everything I did in law enforcement And um, and I said no, you know, listen, let's just find out what's happened here So anthony zamponi, my supervisor was the one he stepped up And he went to battle for me all the way down to headquarters in washington And all the way to the hoover building he fought tooth and nail Because he knew see again the stars aligned for me because I had a guy who was a subject matter expert On his family who knew them in and out who was now my supervisor on his case So I was blessed to have this guy and he fought to keep me alive in his case And then it was all right. Listen, we'll agree to send you he want charlie wanted me to come out to vegas And they were like you crazy. There's no way we're sending an fbi in the cover to vegas You wind up in a desert buried somewhere. We'll never find you And uh, I'm not let me I want to go I really want to go so we came up with a way and we mitigated it And he came out and it was uh, the kentucky derby And I got a cabana at the hotel. I was staying in he came over and I had this great asset You know, he he came over and and he went swimming with me and spent the day in a cabana watching the kentucky derby And um, you know, everything was great And it wasn't he was very comfortable because he watched me go swimming in the pool And after I knew what he wasn't saying anything to me. He insisted that he wanted to talk to me about some things And uh, once I went swimming and he felt comfortable to talk to me He was like, all right Now come over here sit next to me and I sat so close to each other. We were almost sitting on each other laps And uh, you know that hundred degree vegas weather with the sun beating off all these hotels You we were roasting like ants under a magnifying glass and and he was just Spewing it all out. All right. This is how it works. This is who I am This is how this is what you're gonna do when you go back home. Your life is gonna change You're with us now. You're gonna fly a flag This is what it means to fly my flag and then we'll see where it goes from there and we'll make a way in And then that changed our relationship from that point on He watched me every day. He watched me from the phones. He watched me from checking in He watched me with the gambinos. He watched me with his nephew. He watched me with everybody And then uh, he kept tabs on me and then eventually he knew I was running around like crazy He was putting me into other bogates Then he would call me up and say go see this guy from the colombus go see this guy from gambinos Go see this guy from this family And then he was putting me into meetings and if I had stuff in the street and we were doing deals We were doing it together or I was just meeting people And because I was doing things and representing them. He would then get feedback from those people Or from his gambinos because again the de capo cantes. They really fly the flag under the the gambinos they're the big brother and uh So charlie was reporting right back to and had the the the boss the gambino new jersey boss Reporting right back to umami. So he was getting great intel from a guy who was his gumbada forever And that's how he was getting and then he really came to trust me And then it was a regular basis come out again Then it was a little more and a little more and a little more to the point where uh, he basically said, okay That's it. You're with me and then again here comes louis You know one day I got a call from louis and he's trying to get in touch with me and I'm putting him on a back burner Uh, and I knew that he had gotten his so-called button of his I heard rumors from it charlie didn't confirm but I knew from the intel side of law enforcement and uh, you know, I got to watch that balance of what I say Uh, because that's that's that could be poisonous You can actually then he slipped and say something and then guys would be like, how did you know he got made? You know, so you really got to watch what you're saying You know if you go out and you have a couple too many drinks You know something happens and you have a slip of the tongue You know, it's a slippery slope. Don't ever think that the mafia is not what it used to be It's still there as strong as it ever was they might not be up in your face But you know, they still have old school values and the old school gangsters that are there The young guys coming up might be different, but these old school guys they don't change I know from I know from my reporting on um, the bruno scarfo family in philadelphia Uh, I wrote the autobiography of crazy philionetti who was nicky scarfo's nephew and uh under boss and was running atlantic city in the 80s and uh What you just said though made me think of an anecdote that he had said to me where You know, nicky scarfo look look for ways to trip up his own guys By licking them up and trying to get their guard down And he would pretend like he was drinking alongside them, but in reality he had told The bartender or the or the waitress to be sure to just be giving him water when he's giving everyone else cut his arc and He's like and it feels like yeah a couple guys ended up dead because of My uncle getting them drunk and having them kind of go off at the go off at the mouth that at a Restaurant when they would have never said any of that if my uncle had him in just, you know, pouring liquor down their throat Right, right. Mm-hmm. Yeah. So uh, yeah, and you know, it's they they'll do it They'll bet you out. They're not stupid people by any means So talk about the the the final couple nails in the coffin for for Charlie the hat and how how that bus ended up coming down in 15 So, uh, what really happened was, um When I came home one time from Vegas Louis called me up and he was trying to get a meeting with me So what happened was he couldn't get a hold of me because I was kind of blowing them off a little bit and just You know, I'm now I'm with Charlie. So I wasn't being cocky about it. I was just trying to distance myself from him And um, you know, he kept hounding me and hounding me. So one of my associates He reached out to him and this associate who was in the street with me He was like, look, this guy Louis keeps calling me. He wants to see you. I don't know what the hell he wants But he wants a meeting with you. All right. Well, tell him I'll meet him tomorrow Set the meeting up and I go and I boom I set it up Not that I'm somebody of that importance But I was just like, you know, I really don't want to do anything the bureau doesn't want me to All right, I'll take the meeting with him when I go to this meeting his whole persona had changed Because in his mind, he was a made guy now and he turns around he wanted to win me So Louis turns around he says, where are you been? Don't worry about where I've been and again, here comes the biker out me Not the gangster, but the biker don't worry about where I've been Don't ask me my business. Don't ever ever ask me my business that could be I'll never talk to you again It's none of your business. Don't worry about what I do unless it's something we're doing together And I was real cocky about it So I took that stance with them and he goes, no, no, I just want to know because like, you know A lot of things are coming up in my brain. Like, you know, you walk like me you talk like me, you know, we're close to Close in age like where do you come from? So that's when I shared with him my biker persona and I said, look This is who I am. This is how I came up. This is all new to me that my Italian heritage is my heritage But you know, I didn't grow up the way you grew up though. I didn't grow up in his life I'm learning as I go, but I'm a street guy and I'm again, you know, I'm a street gangster I could be a gangster But if you're asking me who I'm with and you keep breaking my horns I'll tell you who I'm with. All right. I'm a lone wolf and I do have a lone wolf tattoo on my body Because when I was a kid, that's the reason why I got it. I'm a one-man gang That's how I used to think of myself when I was stupid 16 year old kid So I pulled up my sleeve and I see that that's why I'm a little don't worry about me But if you're to answer your question if I need an army I'll call an army and then we'll come riding in here on our iron horses and I'll mow your little city down And because I came off that way He got a little cocky with me And he goes, listen, I'm only trying to say You know, you got to be careful with charlie. You want to be with charlie, you know, you've been out in vegas All right, so, you know, I've been out in vegas. Let's get down to it. What do you want? Where you should be with me? Well, you know, my fbi supervisors tell me I should be with charlie's tango. So that's where I'm going to go So, uh, that rubbed him the wrong way And I said, no, you know, I'm going to be with charlie. I respect charlie We get along no offense rule. We could always do business together and let's we're going to have to be in the same Boy, got her together. So let's try to get along with different crews But you know, let's try to get along and he kind of left alone for a while But what happened was charlie came to new jersey because he went on a record with me He wanted me to be introduced to the bosses in the administration And the day he did that Um after we did that it was it was at a particular pork store and a butcher shop that mimics the one in the Sopranos it was just like going to satria The little table outside and charlie was waiting for me the bosses said come everybody was all dressed up inside This little deli butcher shop and you know, it addressed to the nines and the boss comes There's the underboss the street boss came and went on record him in a consulate air and charlie was feeling his oats So louis wasn't there But he made it a point to drive through the neighborhood and charlie wanted me to drive around in my catalac escalate And he just kept pointing out. So this seat is placed over here. This is owned by a guy like me See this place over here. It's owned by a guy like you, you know, this is who we are This is how we live don't come down here. It gets hot down here So he's giving me the lessons and then what happened was he drove me right to louis jala verry's house But really what he was doing was he just wanted to piss all over him And he made it a point to Get out of the car and say i'll be right. He never told me where he was going. He said be i'll be right back and then About 15 20 minutes went by and charlie was gone I didn't know what hell he was and then charlie didn't show back up louis did And when louis j showed up, I was like, well, where's charlie don't worry about it Come here and he made me come out and do a walk and talk with him And then right out of the gate He said to me the way you talk to me that day and I was very respectful of him because I knew at that point He was a made guy and again I knew my line and I knew where I couldn't I couldn't never be aggressive towards a made guy That'll get you whacked out in that life. You touch a made guy It's a it's an order for death And I had to bow down and I kissed him and I gave him a kiss on each cheek as you do with a made guy And I said hey Congratulations. I hear congratulations or in order. I'm sorry. I didn't know, you know, I didn't know Well, you know what you ought to be careful who you're talking to before you know find out who you're talking to now So he played the part a little bit and then he threatened to chop me up into pieces We had a little bit of a moment and Before you know it his crew started coming all out and I thought for a minute there They were going to drag me into the basement because I knew his history I knew he collects money I knew how he collects what pit bulls and I knew all of this and I could hear the dogs barking in the background of his building And before you know it the conversation went You know, listen the day I met you when you're associated and you told me you were going to be with charlie He fasted up to me that um, there was surveillance on me that day And he followed the car and he made me he said guess where we followed the car back to I have no idea. Why don't you tell me we're going to play games here? Just go ahead guess guess where follow them to I have no idea FBI building So they wanted to follow on one of the FBI agents back to the FBI building in Newark after my meeting So that caused a little bit of grief I got through that I explained in the book how we kind of got through it charlie showed back up Uh, you know and again, do I tell charlie? Do I not tell charlie? I chose to tell charlie about the FBI Agent getting followed because I realized what if he told him on a walk and talk which most likely he did And if I don't fess up to it and charlie knows about it charlie's gonna fester and he's gonna fester Why isn't why isn't givani telling me this? Why is he hiding it from me? So I came out and told him And then that's when charlie he confided in me says listen to me. Don't worry about it That kid's wearing a hat that don't fit his head And Just staying in your lane and we're gonna take care of it by that point the whole thing with 10 years happened And all of this stuff happened in the family They were already in the the wheels were in motion to take this guy out and I didn't know that at the time So fast forward a few months. Um, charlie came back to me and they decided I guess through conversation that they were gonna they were gonna whack this guy out and Charlie tasked me with it He says, you know, and you're gonna do it, you know And after he went through this lengthy explanation on why they were gonna whack him out and I said, uh, you know, okay He goes and uh, you're gonna do it And I was like me what what because actually what he said to me is The administration saying is not a problem. We don't have a problem. We got to have a problem So what charlie did was he made a problem. He made me the problem And he said to me, you know, you're the problem And again when you're with the sociopath and he tells you the problem I freaked out So you're talking about on the problem. No, listen to me boy. My boy, you want a problem We're gonna make you the problem and that's it. We're gonna take this guy out and you're gonna do it And when I questioned him on I was like, all right. Well, you want me to do it Are they offering your button for for doing this? Are they saying no no that didn't come till later that conversation didn't come till later Again, here's my capo and by now I'm running hard with him and I'm representing him I'm now speaking at this point in a case. I'm speaking for charlie He's sending me somewhere on behalf of him. Not only was I flying the flag But I was going to meetings and speaking for him. I was his voice You know, and he made that very clear When the day we went on record with me, not that I became a me guy in any way shape or form The day in that butcher store, he told the bosses. That's it. I'm gonna be out in Vegas Giovanni speaks for me and everything's gonna happen here And so much to the point where the boss the street boss had turned around and said, all right Listen, if this is the way it's gonna be here's my direct number. Do you have any problems you reach out to me directly? You know, so I had that kind of juice through charlie um and then You know, he just decided that I was going to do this thing and I wasn't going to question him and uh I guess I realized real quick that the case was going to come to an abrupt end because we don't kill people, you know And there was a couple other people on a plate at the time Louis was not the only one initially and then some came, you know, the the rest of them were taken off the plate there was there was supposed to be a couple hits and uh Louis was the only one left standing And then charlie said to me be the man you were born to be be the man i'm teaching you how to be and you're gonna do this So he came up with the idea with a little push from me I should use your out You should use your outlaw friends because he met two of my outlaw biker buddies that are like my family And I had a whole legend to go with it and he met them my buddy dutch Who was like a brother to me and he was another undercover and you know, I we just synced up perfectly And he met charlie out in vegas charlie had met him prior to that on another deal that we were doing And he came up with the idea. He's like well, you need people and by this time charlie was building a crew for me And I was running his crew. He had people reporting to me on a daily basis by this point His son being one of them. He put his son under me The son anthony was on probation at the time and and he called me up one day and I got a I got the kid a job drive a dump truck and then eventually charlie called me up said all right That's it. I'm gonna put you know, my son's gonna be under you. He's gonna report to you every day So just a little more pressure on me. I would tell people to google anthony Stango they called him whitey Definitely. Yeah looks like what you would what you might think a modern day want to be Wise guy would look like in 2021. He doesn't fit the stereotypical wise guy look he looks more of like a teenager on his way to a A jz concert He does But he had a lot of ties in the street. He did he had a lot of ties in the street And don't get don't don't let the look fool you because he was a capable kid if he had to be a shooter I believe that you know If if he hadn't in the past he he had a he had a temper on him, you know And it came to the point where we were Later in our our crews were doing battle our crew with charlie and me and charlie's crew as I call it and then My guys were coming to me and saying listen. We're getting attached from louis guys. We got we got a we got a We got a strike. We got to go at them. We got to go at them. Let's go at them Let's go do it right now. Let's do it now. We got to do it We got it, you know and everything was we got to do it for daddy, you know And then it was like no you don't do anything unless I tell you to do something and I'm told by him Our skipper tells us what to do, you know And you don't do anything until I do But this kid had a hair trigger just like his old man because he grew up watching charlie's craziness, you know So he was a capable kid. So I was controlling both stangos in my life But I did have a great relationship with a love relationship with whitey. I great I grew to knew him and I grew to knew his family and You know, I knew them I knew them in and out and I made sure he was a good father You know, he tried he didn't have it all and he had a bad bad rap growing up and stuff But he tried to be the best father he could, you know, uh, he was a good kid But he could be a gangsters gangster. I took meetings. I would go with anthony and pay other Uh capos, you know, we did deals with other crews Anthony would come with me because I insisted that I would be the one to pay the captains, you know And within our family it would come from me And then, you know, that's how I knew how serious the war was when I had gone to another captain He's now deceased but when I went to his He was on parole for murder And he wanted to kill jimmy smalls And he said look and by that point this captain is talking to me like i'm charlie's son And i'm with whitey and he's saying look jivani, I know your father a long time referring to charlie He said but I tell you right now go tell your father. I love him But that kid jimmy if I see him he's gone They want to kill him. He says that the minimum he's going to the hospital, but I'm going to kill a kid You know, so you had all these things and all these conversations that I had to report back to charlie And then you know charlie would tell me bring a message back and tell him this tell him that So meanwhile the murder was being planned charlie was getting anxious and you know, uh It took us a while I wanted to make sure all the eyes were dotted and the t's were crossed and It took a while to get all the evidence packed and and for the prosecution to get their case together for a takedown And I bought them about four more months or so just by saying listen I'm not going to use guys in my crew charlie didn't want me to use his son to do his deed And I said i'm using these guys and I got to use guys I trust And I got dutch who's my best friend who I ride and die with But the other shooter the guy that i'm going to use he's on parole. He's going to be off in two more months I can't let this guy come down here and get pinched for breaking his parole while he's doing surveillance on this Social club. So give me a couple of months and I did they bought it and I bought us some time You know, they let me but charlie was getting so anxious at the end. He was like, look, you got to kill this kid You got to kill him kill him kill him just meme him run him over Throw acid in his face run him over to put him in a wheelchair for the rest of the life You got to kill this kid, you know, he was getting anxious and more anxious and I thought so much so That he was going to come in and do it himself So, you know, things had to be rushed up a little bit and uh, that was it He would have had that sanctioned by the administration, right? He didn't he couldn't just order a guy executed, right No, no all this went to the administration. So, you know for time purposes, I know you guys are but Yeah, this was all bounced off the administration. Charlie would go have a phone call So by that point we were up on wire taps and stuff like that towards the end of the case So we were getting a lot of this on first hand, you know listening and um Charlie would then call the administration or he came in and had a meeting with them and basically told him, you know In the best conversation we ever heard was the one where he told the administration You know, of course, he had the phone passed off to two other guys and eventually got the street boss on a phone And he explained to them. Listen, it's a done deal. These guys are coming in and he referred to them He says they're like angels from hell That's what he's trying to relate to them who they were right and he said they're going to come in and They're going to do this thing, you know So, uh, yeah, it was all sanctioned and it was all run up the chain and they were all we didn't do anything You know off the off the cuff But by then to answer your question before I wasn't offered a button until later Uh, when I when I challenged charlie and and rightfully so I said charl listen, you know, I'm gonna do this deed Right, I'm doing this for you skip and I'm doing it for us. But you know, how does this leave me? What do you mean and these are conversations I'd have in his house is I do this There's gonna be people coming at me. We're a war We're a borderline war with each other right now in the family Like, you know, there's two divisions. There's two different sides and like, you know, don't worry about it Yeah, but these guys are gonna come at me and he would laugh. He laughed it off. He says listen, my boy Don't you worry about it. There's gonna be 50 guys standing in a line waiting to pin the medals on your chest Don't worry about it No, just be the man you were born to be all right I said and then again, I I used to have these conversations because from an investigator's point of view You don't want to just have one conversation and have some defense attorney beat it up So I would always revisit it and again I had that relationship that father-son relationship with charlie where He wasn't looking at me sideways anymore, you know By that point it was why are you staying on the strip? Come stay at the house. I got extra bedrooms You know, I love you be careful call me when you land, you know And it wasn't because he thought I was getting pinched. It was because he genuinely cared for me, you know, and um And then towards the end I challenged him again And he turned the tv up as loud as he could in the house and he only did motions with his hands And uh, he laughed at me. I said, you know, listen skip I understand what you're asking me to do and I got to say it one more time We're getting close here. It's gonna happen. They put this guy down. I went through this whole Story about, you know, we went we've been doing surveillance on him and he go I said, you know, we're not sure the biker guys don't know which one it is that came out of the club And he said he went and got me pictures of louis He says he printed pictures off his off his computer and said he had given even these pictures This will help them and then I challenged him and said, okay. Well, where does this leave me at the end? And he pointed to himself And he goes and he pointed to his chest and he points to this guy I said, what are you talking about? And then I played stupid and I know he had such a short temper That I make him talk and eventually he goes, no Jesus Christ this kid Listen to me Because I was like, I don't understand what you're saying. You're doing sign language. I don't get it. What are you saying? Listen to me Jesus Christ Me I'm going up. I'm getting up So he was trying to tell me he was going to after all this was done and the dust settles He was going to be made possibly to number two, which was the street boss the under boss And then he would become under boss and I said really that's great. Congratulations. That's all good. No, I'm not done And he pointed to me. It's you you go up and that's where he said explain to me on tape Because you know, then you go up. You're gonna get up. I'm gonna get up. He says, yeah And remember I come off parole. He would have been off parole when he explained to me when he gets off parole He was gonna get up and then I would get up after everything. He says, so don't worry about it Just do what you gotta do So and then the last day I was with the man. He was jumping for joy. I want to be there with you. I want to be there Not not knowing that the whole thing was right come and crashing down and that he was eventually gonna be in Handcuffs before before long. Can you also share with us share with our audience the As you're in the middle of this operation You're actually not living far from the center of mafie activity And the precarious position you were in didn't you run into a an associate or a Made guy or an associate at like the little league game or something like that And frankly Giovanni before you answer this, I just wanted to you know, give a little editorialization here It seems like there was a real logistical blind spot In the way that the higher ups here Put this all together. I mean and it seems like that blind spot could have really put you and your family's life in danger in terms of How how to I guess draw down or or pull you out of Of uh, you're under cover work and then putting you in a neighborhood where All the people that you went under cover Against word living Yeah, yeah, and I think we got you know and again, it's not to defend them I think we all got poisoned by it. You know, here we are. It's the likes of Since jack Garcia did his thing, you know There's nobody that's infiltrated to this level that I was at, you know, and then of course the ultimate The ultimate medal of honor for them is is for the any law enforcement is to any undercover to get Become a made guy to get made right? That's what they would love to do And I guess after my predecessors and and jack came pretty damn close You know, there hasn't been anybody and now these guys start looking at it, you know, you understand There's a lot of high fives going on within the bureau This thing is going all the way down and there were law enforcement leaks along the way here This case was like, you know, it had to be sealed within it was a it was a real It was it was insane what was going on We had law enforcement leaks leaking information back to the de cabecante family That they were being looked at and watched not that there was another cover Just that that they were being looked at heavily heavily And I didn't know where that leak was coming from this whole time And there's a law enforcement leak that we knew of There was all these things going on and everybody's high-fiving because at this point and you know, listen, so I sat there with auntie jamponi my my supervisor and he's like, this is great. Yeah, this is great You know, this is tremendous. So we looked at it as a good possibility The only person that saw it coming was my wife She warned me when I when I fessed up when things got out of hand after the soccer game She was the one that said to me you're going to destroy our family This is not going to end well because she had a she had experience in law enforcement She was law enforcement. She worked on the cover herself And she said this is a bad thing. This is going to end bad for us. You're going to destroy our family And I was like, no, you don't get it. You don't get it. This is super sexy. This is awesome. This is great You know, I got lost in it and that was my my addiction my my addiction was that adrenaline in that, you know That that desire to succeed in every case I ever did How did you explain your way out of that situation at the soccer game where a mafia guy sees you and he's like, hey, what are you doing here? Yeah, so I bought myself some time Again, by this point I was Trying not to live in a different places I had I had a house I had an apartment in new york and I was out in vegas a lot at that point And I was living out that way and just spending a lot of time away from my family And I wanted some downtime. I needed some downtime and I took a I took a blow I told I told guys in my crew, you know, listen, I got to have a little bit of a break She's riding me, you know, they knew I had a girlfriend And you know, I got to get away for a little bit and I'm going away for a couple days And I was with my real family and here I am I'm being myself and I'm Giovanni Rocco and I got my shorts. I got my flip flops. I'm joining a soccer tournament It's it's these tournaments are huge hundreds of teams thousands of people and it's you know and I think it was in like Monroe, New Jersey and There's just a sea of cars and a sea of teams and people and families and My daughter was in between games and we were having lunch my my folks my parents had been there And they were visiting us and they were able to make it to my my daughter's first tournament And they were there to enjoy it And here we are sitting between games having some lunch and sitting in these lawn chairs and By the parking lot and before you know it here comes this game being all You know walking towards me and it was the guy that vetted me, you know And and he comes walking towards me and as I see him He's on his phone and I thought you know, I got paranoia set in right away. Oh my god. There's gooms You know gooms sees me gooms just look. I think he just looked up I mean that's gooms. He's 50 yards away. He's 40 yards away. He's walking right towards me And I just got up got out of my chair didn't say a word. Thank god my wife and I had you know We always planned for these things god forbid was both being a law enforcement And I flanked him and I came at him from his left And I go hey gooms and he whipped around and sees me and I came in for the two kisses And he just finger in my chest and pushed me straight back. What are you doing? What are you doing here? Giovanni? Giovanni, what are you doing? It's nothing. Come here. Give me a kiss We talk about we meet four days a week for coffee and we you know, we it's me And what are you doing here? And I I saw this darkness then I realized what this guy was capable of And he just oh stone cold What are you doing? Are you following me? Are you following me and then it was like no we talking about following you and I just pulled this story and I explained the book I pulled this crazy story, which you always had to be prepared And you know you kind of trained to do it and I came up with a story that he bit And I came up with a story that nah, listen, he goes you don't have kids. Why are you here at a soccer tournament? This don't make sense. You don't even live in here. You don't you live in new york city. What are you doing here? So I quickly went nah, listen, and I'm here for this girl. I used to date this girl Yeah, I told you about this girl a little kid her father's being held down right now And and I came up with a story and I said, you know, I taught the girl how to play soccer And I promised her if she ever, you know took up travel soccer I'll come to it and she called me the other day and you know the old man's held down So what am I going to do? I stepped in and I quickly changed it and I got him my all you do this every week What are you doing? This is crazy. You you come to this thing every week like this gooms. This is insane Look at all these cars. Look at all these people. This is that no wonder why you're never around on weekends. I forget about it He bought he bet forget about it. You know what jivan? You don't even know I said my god gooms. This is crazy. And then I quickly changed the subject and he was like, I forget it This is crazy. But anyway, here she is and I see his daughter Hey, and she comes running up to me hug And because I knew and And he says, uh, so what are you doing? I said, no, I'm done. I say they they lost their first game. They're out of this thing. I drove all the way in here They lose their first game. I'm gone. He goes out forget about it. She's playing this other team over here Guess who's the team she's gonna play my daughter's team Because it's murphy's law, right? And uh, I said, all right gooms. Let me go. I got to get out of here I got to go find my it's gonna take me now to find my car. I'm still making jokes Take me an hour and a half to find my car. Jesus And I forget about it. Good luck. Where'd you park? I don't know all day. I don't know He says, yeah, I got a good spot right here. And when he points to his hundred thousand dollar Mercedes It's right where I was sitting I was pretty much sitting on a bumper of his car and I was so unplugged that my situation went well I never paid attention to it And that's why he was walking right towards me. So I jump, you know I started walking on the road and my wife calls me up. She's like, what the, you know, really? And she was in a panic and I said, nah, just, you know, send my old man to get me some Just tell my father come get me and of course he came I'm walking on the side of road and he comes pick me up and I had to fess up to him He said, what the hell's going on? Like, you know, we don't he had no idea I said and just drive me home. He goes, what are you doing? And I came to him. He says, are you out of your mind? You know, so I didn't tell him every little detail, but I kind of shed some light and You know, he started looking at me a little differently and you know Because I went the way in narcotics. He was a he was a homicide detective and a major case detective He always wanted me to wear a suit, you know, and he always made fun of me for being a narc but uh You know, but then he realized what I was doing. So, you know, but it was little things like that You know, that's just one of many against uh Yeah, right, right Operation charlie horse. Yeah, right Yeah, opera that came down. I left charlie's house and uh said my goodbyes to him and he knew that I was going to go home that night. Uh, I got I got word out in vegas that the biker guys were They they put them down they put louis down somewhere and I was going back to do it And he knew that I was going to do it that night and You know, or the night at the night after that when I got home and he couldn't be more excited You know, he walked me out to my car like he always did and I'll take two extra bottles of water. Don't you know, it's it's very dry out here Stay stay hydrated. Be careful. Call me when you get home It's all right, you know, this is a good thing. Oh, this is great So we had we took a ride on a strip and my my car out there And uh in my Cadillac out there to sedan and he he basically told me look, you know, if he's in the coffee shop No, let's walk in boom boom and walk out You know, if he's there and a lot of people there just you know, unless unless you want to get a He was telling me unless I want to get military grade explosives and blow the whole place up Jesus You know And that's how he got to cover all your bases Very matter of fact, unless whatever you want to do g-vine unless you want to do it You want to focus on Throw one of things in there and kill everybody but we had conversations I'd be like, well, what if anybody gets up, you know, if anybody gets up, you know Shoot them in the leg make send a message and just tell me sit down you know Well, this was uh quite a Conversation and interview you've done it all you've said it all You've literally lived a movie script. We've had a number of of people that have lived a movie script on this On this podcast, but you're definitely at the at the top of that chart Yeah, we have to get you back on here because there's still a lot that we didn't get to but we just run out of time But we gotta have you back on we've done over 50 Episodes here in the last couple years. This has got to be one of my favorites It definitely makes my top five I'm humbled and honored to hear that. Thank you You are uh, you you've lived a noble life my friend and uh, you you you should Wear that uh that badge with honor. I mean, I know you don't Wear a badge everywhere you go now, but just know that uh, there's police work And then there's police work Um, and I'm not trying to disparage people that that uh, you know, work the beat for a live in or or parking tickets, but uh the type of work that you do And you did and and people of your ilk um You really don't get to do that you deserve because it's You know, it's just as dangerous as being on the front line of a of a war uh overseas And then you're doing it without blinking an eye and and I I give my gratitude and And I just want you to know what what a superstar you are in in the eyes of the og podcast I appreciate that very much and you know, it is the guys and girls on the front line of being law enforcement They're the ones that you know, they're putting their neck out every single day And you know, we didn't even get into the mental health end of it But you know, it's taken it's toll on me just like it does every first responder and you know There's guys and girls they're doing this every single day out there and it's still on the covers out there to do it That's kind of reason why I wrote the book I wanted people to know that this kind of work is going on every day And there's men and women out there on the front line every single day doing this I'm just one of many I can't imagine the Emotional landmines that you had to navigate Um in your work. I mean obviously in your whole career, but definitely In the in the case that that we've just been talking about operation Charlie horse and and uh Last thing I'll ask you is Obviously, I'm guessing you've seen the Donnie Brasco movie and I really I've always said I think that's one of the most I've never been a undercover law enforcement agent But in terms of the the way they tell the story of of lefty guns and how he is just really a spoke on a wheel And they don't really glamorize Um, the life whether it be the life of the gangster Lefty guns or the life of the undercover agent the the joepestone character and there's a scene where he's in marriage therapy And you you can see that he's his personality his His um He the way he's his composure his Everything has changed and I remember she said something like I thought I married a college guy And now you're a you're a knuckle-dragger And it's like he's like you don't understand if I if I If I let go of this persona, I'm putting everyone at danger. I have I have to wear this veil In order for for safety for all of us and it's like this I can't imagine the mental gymnastics that you have to do do with yourself So I guess my question is did you see that and did that resonate at all that those slow scenes in Donnie Brasco? Very much so I think every undercover goes through when you work in deep cover I think for Joe myself and the other guys that have done long term like this and jack Garcia You know you look at jack Garcia when when his guys had hit somebody over the head in a blooming dales in a mall And they just start, you know, they have a propensity for violence And I think that's the common denominator with the three of us and and what we did in costa nostra These guys are a hair trigger. You know, you talked about earlier with nicky scarfo Like, you know, there's stories that go back to guys just you know from what I heard in stories over the years from You know, my father-in-law who was who worked those cases Um, nicky scarfo was one of his targets now nicky Supposedly there's a story he killed a guy because somebody in his crew was sneezing too much at dinner And the guy turned around he says I can't have this He's look at this guy down. He ended the table. He just sneezing. Why they skip. He's got allergies I can't have it. It don't look good and that night the guy was gone You know, so when you're living that kind of life. Yeah, it takes a toll on you. I named the g vani's Yeah, I I grew up wearing a pinky ring and I have a ring and But the one that I wore from the government I used as a switch not to go into too deep of a story But that's where the title comes from my crime ring that I was running through on behalf of charlie But then it's also the ring that I wore it was my mental switch And I would pull up in my driveway every day when I got home and I would take that ring off And that was me if now it was self-taught nobody taught me that and I took it off and I would leave it in My cup holder in my car That's all right now I got to leave this piece of trash g vani gato Out in my driveway because I would never let a guy like g vani gato in my house Now I got a bg vani rocker and I thought I had it all I had to this is balanced I watched joe's story. Yeah, you know, I watched him go. That ain't me. That's not me I got this I got this ball bounced out. I'm a professional And here I was it wasn't until one time My son my little guy was at a reading class After school and he was in one of these little reading clubs and When you you the little kids I don't know how old he was you're small If you read this story or you read the line Correctly you went to the prize box And my little guy being this little Italian kid he was going to the prize box He wasn't taking the footballs and the baseballs and the squishy balls He was taking the little girl's gold rings And he started putting them on his fingers And he was emulating g vani gato. So that's when I realized told me good god This guy's in my house already You know, here I was thinking he wasn't in there and he's in my house the whole time, you know I I let my son be exposed to a guy. I would never let him be around So you become so blind to it Because of that reason it's a defense mechanism exactly what you described the reason why joe You know part of me I would never say it But in the end when charlie put his hand on the back of my neck like my uncles have done in the past to pat me You know, that's old school. That's somebody that's in my world in my true life That that's a sign of affection. It's what I do to my son now You put your hand on the neck and you tell him what you mean and charlie did that to me I was broke down the night I left But then he always did something to remind me And I wish I could be there to kill this guy with you You know, but I love you. I love you be careful going home. So it was those little things that that set me back to Zero, but yeah, there's plenty of uh, we could talk about it on the next time But it's a fascinating story and we appreciate you coming on and and hopefully you'll come back again and join us Please audience go out and buy jovani's ring my life inside the real sopranos by jovani Rocco and uh, listen to the original gangsters podcast, please follow us on social media facebook twitter um, instagram and shameless self promotion jack arsia We've also had him on our show before so digging to the archives. We've had other undercover agents, but jovani Thank you very much and please join the original gangsters podcast again a lot more to talk to I look forward to it. Thanks guys. Okay. Take care. Thanks jivani. Take care. Okay Thanks for listening to the original gangsters podcast. I'm jimmy butchillado and my co-conspirator scott burnstein. See you next time