 Governors in their final tenure might be facing the tricky question of who succeeds them. And the United States mission launches a fund for cultural preservation in that area. We'll be having the public affairs officer with the consulate in Lagos joining us later on the show. This is Plus Politics, I am Mary Anacor. As the 2023 general elections draw near, a number of states are also gearing up to elect their next governors. In 2022, the people of Ekiti State will be going to the polls to select their next governor. Other states who will select new governors are Aqaibom, Cross River, Eboi, Inugu, Kaduna State, Kanu, Katzina, Rivers and Taraba states. In the just recently concluded a number of state elections, the preferred candidate of Governor William Biano not only won the APCA ticket but also went on to win the election. Is it now safe to say that the governors of these states, which would be going to the polls, would also want to exercise power over who the next leader would be? Well, joining us to discuss this and answer the question is Achike Tudde and Biodeshomi boss political analyst. Thank you very much gentlemen for joining us. Thank you very much. Great. I'm going to start what you showed me. It's interesting that Ekiti State is where everybody's looking at and I think you and I had a conversation recently about the politics around the next elections. But we also see something very interesting happening in Ekiti, not just the men throwing their hats into the ring but we're seeing a lot more women who are also putting their best foot forward to run for governorship. But in Ekiti State we have Governor Faiyame who is of the APC. And then we know that in Ekiti we have the APC and the PDP fighting tooth and nail to make sure that they emerge as the party for 2022. But let's start by looking at the election electoral process. We see that sometimes the governors always want the person they think can take over from them and do a better job. Sometimes maybe for the wrong reasons, sometimes for the right reasons but the governors always want to exercise that power. But we also see sometimes the hand of ESO in states where you have Godfathers who decide who the next person would be. But in Ekiti State we have seen Faiyame hold a national appointment before he came back to become governor. With all the people who have put their foot forward to run for governorship, do you think it's going to be an easy task to pick somebody to succeed him? Yes, when you look at Ekiti, Ekiti is one single ethnic state. You don't have two different ethnicities. There are all Ekiti people and that's all. And therefore we are likely going to have what I would call a repost challenge without the void of ethnic politics in the selection of who will be the next humanitarian candidate for the state. Now, when you go into the issues, there are three major issues why people existing governors want to meet why if they need new governor. And the first one is the issue of the continuity of programs. We live in a country where there is a lot of abandonment. So many governors genuinely think that they should be in a position to ensure that their vision of development should continue when they are out of power. That is one factor. The second factor also is you may have governors who are troubled by the way they govern the state or maybe due to my presence or face severe allegations and also interested in showing that they can get one of their cronies to who will be most supported to be in power. Then you have a third factor which is the issue of the party. When it comes to go for that, every governor wants to control the politics of the state. They are used to it when they are in office, when they lead up the party. And when they are out of party, the state wants to be in a position to dictate who gets work within the state. So those are the three major factors. Now back to the state, it's not a straightforward issue when it comes to that because there are a number of other factors that contribute. The state has a good sense of social justice in the sense that they tend to look at the performance and now it has impacted on the well-being of the people and of the state. That is one major issue if it's a people. The second issue is also, there's also the issue of the stomacic pastoral which is quite very important because when you look at the state, it's quite very very close with virtually no industries. Apart from one big industry which I know of, I don't know of any other industry. You said you want to talk about the spring water, which is when you talk about industry, you don't really need to factor those. It is also very peculiar in the sense that it is the only state in Nigeria where the majority of the people voting are actually 45 upwards. Those are the majority, unlike in many states where you have the minority of the voters being the young people. The simple reason is because you don't have the industries, there are no jobs or employment apart from civil service. So what you then add is all the youth graduating tend to migrate to other cities in search of greener pastoral. So consequently, if it's in voters tend to be civil servants, teachers and older people. So that is the uniqueness of the state itself. So on succeeding itself, if you look at the pattern, far as she was in power, she would speak out of power due to alleged corruption only to be replaced by the election of the governor of Caldy, Fahemi. Fahemi was in power, he was considered as not being too distant from the grass roots. Again, he was kicked out. We had a short briefing on each economy in power. Fahemi came back, was Minister of Mines and Parrot, and he came back. Minister of Mines, then he came back to become the governor. So you have said now, I'm going to say that look, there's a tradition as a person of equity. People wanting people to complete their time. It depends on who he never completed anytime because he was kicked out by the courts. So in this situation, he tends to enjoy a lot of sympathy. I know that he's not in the same episode of the Caldy family, Fahemi. He actually led to go to PDB to slug it out with the Trauma Lepticum, the original for the ticket of the party. But what be that as it may, my guess feeling is that we're likely going to see Chagrouni imagine for PDB because there are also other parties. Even in the midst of all the women that the PDB, I mean, because I think if I'm not mistaken, about eight women have thrown their hat into the ring, meaning that we have more women than usual running for the post of a governor. So amidst all of these women, you're telling me that one person is going to emerge and that might be a man and not a woman. Yes, it is due to the way the PDB thinks. I know the place very well. I have people with the people, sufficient people to know that. Apart from being chauvinistic, you know, there's a male chauvinistic tendency, just like in other parts of Europe, it's not just the party. It's the same situation in other parts of the country. But you have a situation where the recurring decimal in the kitty, if you have to go by the two precedents, is once a governor has been elected and kicked out, they tend to have some sympathy, get the person to come back. In the case of Uni, Uni did well. In the short term, he was thrown out by the courts. At least that's the view of the people. He enjoys a lot of sympathy across the board. He has been in the APC, he has been in PDB. So he has some major support across the two political parties, unlike the female candidate. Not that he's not a pushover, he's quite very popular within the state. He's from Ifaqi. He's also quite very, very popular from a substantial voting population area. So when you look at the situation, if it is likely he might be not likely going to go for a female, but they might choose a female as a deputy or not. But they are still likely going to. Go for a male. Well, that remains to be seen. But let me quickly go to Achike. Who picks the preferred candidate? Because this has been a conversation that we've had over and over again. It's one thing to say you want a good candidate to be flying the flag of your party, but then who does the picking? Because we see this issue of governors always wanting a predecessor to be that person that's either anointed or picked up or, you know, picked by a godfather of sorts, depending on the state. But most times we see governors bringing their own crones, just like Mr. Shoomi has said. But where do we come in here to make sure that whoever comes or whoever the party throws up at the end of the day can carry on the legacies of the governor that just left? I'll give you an instance. For example, you have a crossover state which has had a Donald Duke amazing governor and you also had the next person who was a former senator. He was a former minister for power. He was a former minister for education, then became governor. But then you don't have a Ben Ayadeh who's taken the state back 10 years. This obviously calls for concern and it's not just that. He's now moved to the opposition. How does this play into picking a predecessor? Because that seems to be, it's going to be a war between the APC and the PDP. Come 2023. Well, I think our democratic culture, our democracy has not gotten to a level where you can say that at every level of selection or election of political leaders, that is from what level to look at government level depending on the kind of election they are running, that you would always have very best of candidates. It's not going to happen at least for now because process of choosing candidates to run elections, even at the councilorship election or later government election, not to talk of even the higher offices, state offices or federal level, is such that it is only people that have very serious connections with the powers that be within the political parties, the structure of those political parties that can actually be in a position to choose the person they want. And so once such people are picked, the next thing is to present them to the members of the party and to the public for election. And that the people actually really have no choice because we have not gotten to a level where party ideology or the ideology drives the voters to the polling units, drives them to into making or casting their ballots on the basis of the things that they believe. So people vote for candidates just because the candidates represent political parties and they represent other interests, not because they represent any strong ideological compass. And so that is the issue. And then because the reality is that most of these political parties actually belong, even if I may be an exaggeration, of course, if I use the word, but to a very large extent, at least on the basis of the influence that certain people have within these political parties, you could say to a very large extent that certain people have larger than life image within those political parties. They determine what happens in the political parties. We found this conversation, Mary Ann, with you on this particular program. So ultimately at the end of the day, the people are actually disempowered. If you all write through the voting, the selection process of candidates. So what you see ultimately at the end of the day is that people must go out to vote candidates. And in most cases, they might not vote. Well, isn't that a choice between a lesser evil? Isn't that a choice? Because I think that's what it boils down to, is that becomes a choice between a bigger devil and a lesser devil, like what happened to us in 2015. I'm asking this question because in Anambra, it seemed that maybe except one person, the candidates that were presented seemed better. And there were options, there were good options, but then of course the best man in quote, one. So why can't we have that in every other state? Why can't we have that replicated? Yeah, let's put it this way, in spite of the deficits that we have within our democratic process, the reality, if you look at the kind of candidates that emerge nowadays, you will find that there is an improvement actually, at least at the level, and I'm not talking about the moral imperities of each of these people, I'm not talking about their ethical orientation, at least in terms of the presentation of candidates, in terms of the level of education that some of them have, you find that there is actually an improvement in the qualification of some of these people, for public office. So we saw that in Anambra state, and we saw the debate, the governorship debate, we saw how articulate most of the people that participated were. You know, so at that level, yes, we are beginning to have an upgrade, in terms of the qualification of these people for public office. But at the moral level, and that is actually where the ban of politics is, because the people who ultimately emerge as political leaders, are people who do not even act in conformity with the hopes and aspiration of the people, people who get there for the purpose of personal organisement, and so you see the corruption that is going on, you see the perversion of public office, and the disobedience or the respect, even for the rule of law, even in their states, and also at the federal level. But in spite of that, perhaps people will say, maybe the excuse we can provide is the fact that we have about 60 years of independence, and out of the 50 years, we have perhaps about 30 something years of democracy or democratic practice. While some other countries that were emitting have had about 200, 250 years, perhaps to some extent, we can provide some excuses for us, that it is still a process in the works. But does that excuse hold water? Because do we really necessarily have to wait 200 years to have a strong democracy? I mean, if we're copying, can't we copy well? Just saying. Sorry, I didn't hear you. I'm saying I do not necessarily think that that excuse holds water. If we're having to wait like the US to attain 200 years of democracy, then it means that we're not necessarily copying well. You see, you see, we already have the templates. That's why that argument might not hold for too long because for some of the countries that we are talking about, there was a process. Society is evolutionary. And so there was a process that lasted hundreds of years before they got where they are. You understand? Of course, we all know where that process was abridged as a result of colonialism and the rest. And so they give us a template that we are operating. We have not, you know, as a result of our evolution as a country, we have not gotten to where we should get to and at the time that we should get there. This has already been given to us. So we have a template that we're already working with. So if we consider that, I mean, from that perspective, we can say that there is no way we can be talking about waiting for another 200 or 250 years. We have everything that it takes. We have the advantage of education and the fact that we have so many other tools in the modern world that we used to at least have an idea of where to get to and all of that. But the issue again, like I keep on saying, is the moral imperative. We seem to be lacking it, you know, over the years. And that's why we are where we are today. Okay, let me come back to you, Beardu. Let's talk about the issue of governors now making the Senate, you know, a retirement home of sorts for the want of a better way to explain it. We've seen that happen over the years now. We've seen governors retire from governorship and become senators. And I'm trying to understand, is there a written rule somewhere? Who came up with the idea that governors can just, you know, when they end their tenure, just go to the Senate because we see a lot of governors angling for that. Is it something that somebody came up with or it was just a convenient way to run away from something? Well, I think this is a good note of our first experience when President Obasio was in power. When the FCC was settled and so many of the governors were concerned, you know, about what the future holds in stock of them. When we, Beardu, was charged with this. Of course, we had all the argument who is one-sided, is not one-sided, one is partisan investigation of the other. So there were allegations. But the fact of the matter is, many of the 10 governors were so petrified about life after being governors for eight years and decided that, look, it might be more convenient to go to Senate where you can still hold some major influence. And we've seen those influence being deployed at different points in time to leverage, you know, on alleged crimes committed or the way they are under-created or granted by the state. So we've seen all these in action because at the end of the day, if they're in Senate, they have oversight functions, also part to make those over those agencies that would investigate or prosecute them. So I think that is the major factor in why many of the governors are going to go to Senate. So you're saying that the governors are afraid or they're evading investigation as to corruption or monies that are missing in the coffers. You're saying that this is the best way to run away from, you know, the EFCC. No, no, no, no. I'm saying that it is, for them, the way they build it is, and the civilian, at least, when you are in the Senate, you enjoy a major protection being a senator of the federal government. And therefore, you are in a position to carry out oversight functions, you know, to leverage on your membership of the Senate, you know, on those agencies who, in any case, should be having oversight functions over who are supposed to speak. That is just one angle to it. There's the other angle, which is the angle of them, and God forbid that is it. Many of them think when the new government is in there, they're likely not going to dance to their Windsor Caprices. And therefore, going into the Senate affords them the opportunity to hold on to the top of the constituency, you know, in the state and still make themselves politically relevant, you know, within that state. And they're in a position to pose trouble for the government. We have seen that quite a couple of examples of where you have seen it us, you know, not even, you know, not piling with the government. And they're so powerful that the governments at times are worried about whether they will be able to get a second time ticket or not. So these are the major factors which you can say are responsible for governments wanting to go to the Senate as a political base, you know, after the being of this article. It's not just about the father that wants to have a left, but they still want to be politically reputable. You can look at some of those former governments who never went to Senate, particularly in the South West. Many of them are today no longer relevant in the politics of their different states. So I think these are the issues which are motivating one thing to go to the Senate. Okay. Back to you, Achike, you obviously work with civil societies, and I always wonder what the conversations should be in terms of the fact that when the average Nigerian is listening to these kinds of conversations, they hear and understand what the, you know, workings of political parties are. What's stopping the average Nigerian from joining political parties and being part of these decisions that are made at whatever level, no matter how low the levels are. Number two, we're also seeing that states who were predominantly, let's say, PDP, and have now had their governor's crossovers in the opposition are having a lot of infighting as we speak. The likes of, we have the crossover state government, we have Zamfara state. We also still know that the deputy governor of Zamfara is still with the PDP. We also have a governor Mahi of a boy who also, you know, cross-capitated, and we're seeing a lot of infighting within these parties. What's 2023 going to look like already? Party conventions are still yet to be conveyed for some people, for some political parties. We know that Congresses have had parallel Congresses in certain states because of, you know, this infighting. For cross-capitated, it was a big drama where the state PDP secretaries was converted overnight to an APC secretariat. So we have issues like that. What does 2023 look like for those states, especially the three states that we have mentioned? Yeah, well, obviously, we all know that what we're just seeing now is a tip of the iceberg that the political elites in the country, unfortunately, is not a very responsible elite. They are not motivated by the desire to serve the public. It is all about personal and graduate to a very large extent. So what we see in terms of, you know, provision or, you know, of certain public essentials, if I use the expression, is just mere tokenism. At least if you look at the quantum of what is available to some of these politicians or governors, you realize that they are absolutely pulling, you know, punching below their weight. And that's why we have seen all kinds of a crisis. And like I said, these are political parties that are not governed by any strong ideological compass. So, and where you have that kind of a situation, anything goes, anything can be justified. And so, governance is done on the basis of the whims and crapresses of the particular governor, not even on the basis of, you know, the party philosophy, because you don't even have any serious enduring party philosophy, you know, because that should be what should be motivating most of these governors. And if we look at what has happened in the country, especially in the Second Republic, we had a situation where political parties were accidentally very strong. And where the state chairman, either the state chairman of the parties or the national chairman of the parties were very, very strong that today, you talk about a governor being the leader of the party in the state or the president being the leader of the party at the national level. But during the Second Republic, where we had their dissent at King Louis and the rest, you found that, you know, some of the governors and the president, Sewu Shagari, you know, were beholding on the party chairman because they were powerful, they determined the direction that the political party was going to go. But that has changed. And so some of the crisis or most of the crisis that you are seeing is simply because you have governors that have taken upon themselves the toga of absolute wisdom and knowledge over what happens within their domain. And where you have that concentration, where you do not allow polarity or cross-criminalization of ideas between the members of the party, where it was the one person that would have a say, the tendency is for overtime to sow seeds of rebellion. And this is what you're announcing. That's what is responsible for some of the disparities. So for 20 to the 30, it is not unless they can get their acts together. Of course, we have seen the bickering. We have seen, especially at the level of the APC as a political party, we have seen even their inability to even have a proper Congress. And we saw what happened in Lagos state and not just the APC, even the PDP too. So that does not pretend well for, you know, 2023 simply because the people who should be driving the politics of 2023 are themselves locked in all kinds of crisis. And if they don't resolve this crisis, you are going to see some of these these playouts before 2020. Well, I'm wondering why the average Nigerian cannot be part of the political process. And we keep calling it a desiccate. But unfortunately, that's all the time we have. Be able to show me at Chiquiture. Thank you very much for being part of this conversation. We appreciate it. Thank you. All right. Pleasure. Thank you all for staying with us. Coming up on Plus Politics, the United States mission in Nigeria tells us how it hopes to ensure cultural preservation in the country. We'll take a short break now. When we return, we'll have a good decision.