 Okay, welcome back. It's time for our first topic. Justice Bello Kahu of a high court in Abuja on Friday declared as illegal, unlawful, no-land void, the continued detention of the suspended governor of the Central Bank of Nigeria, Mr. Godwin, and Mephile by the DSS. The voiding of Mephile's detention by Justice Kahu came barely 24 hours after a sister court presided by Justice Hamza Moazu had ordered the DSS to within seven days charge Mephile to court over his alleged crimes or set him free. We have been joined by a legal practitioner, Mr. Justin, Johnson Agu, to take a look at this very important matter that's unfolding before us. Good morning to you, Mr. Agu. Okay, when Mephile was arrested, part of the concerns we raised on this program was the process, because even though Nigerians wanted to see him brought to book, we wanted to make sure that the process was done within the ambits of the law. And now his arrest, detention, interrogation, has been said to have been no-land void because of the subsisting judgment and orders of Justice M.A. Hassan in 2022. Talk to us about what appears to be executive rascality, what you've seen, especially since the administration of President, former President Mohammad Ibohari, and now we're seeing it in this new administration. You see, if this is the very powerful issue, I accept that the executive has not been fought right. They have ostensibly used their powers the wrong way. I'm not saying that they do not have the powers of arrest, investigation, and prosecution. They do. But what cities are concerned about is how big a size is powered and for what purpose the size is powered. If you look at these issues quite critically and quite closely, you will notice that throughout the so-called election, I swear to you, none of these particular presidents, he had singled out Mr. M.A. Philly's call. What I would call punishment should or if and when he becomes a president. What he says is Mr. M.A. Philly's crimes at the time he was making his open declaration are related to M.A. Philly's attempt in court to stop him from being the president. So it brings into question all the allegations that have been made against M.A. Philly and suggests that there is another reason other than so-called crimes that Mr. M.A. Philly has purportedly committed. This is what we knew the last administration to do. They have grudges against cities and they use the secretarial powers of the Nigerian state to pursue what we should call personal and individual grudges against citizens of the country. I believe that is wrong. I was reading a comment somewhere and something Nigerian was saying that M.A. Philly should be released in court even if he has committed offenses. The individuals or the persons criticizing governmental powers now are clearly pursuing Vendetta as opposed to pursuing the rule of law to bring him to account. And another person commented and said, this is happening in the social media. Another person commented, will leave him with M.A. Philly, bring back all those who have died as a result of Mr. M.A. Philly's policy. Then another person interjected and said, if his policies constitute a crime, charging specifically for those crimes that his policies or his actions have constituted, if he is liable or if you believe he's liable for those specific actions and he is not protected by public officers' protection rules. If you believe that he is liable for actions that he has done first and second, we do this on his office, charging specifically for those actions that he is not holding indefinitely. This is key. It means that the citizens of the country are aware that nobody should be held indefinitely and fall on these rules or on specified reasons. And if you look probably, the contents of the justice M.A. Hazardous Order 2022 M.A. Hazardous Order 2022 relates to the alleged economic and financial crimes or money laundering or whatever, or whatever. And that appears to be the reason why the SS is not looking in that direction, to charge in that direction. One would have expected the SS if they believe that they have such grounds to appeal to the judgment of M.A. Hazardous instead of holding M.A. Philly like that suit he was held by the previous administration. But they haven't done that. They haven't gotten that direction. And they are holding M.A. Philly in a way that our law does not accept. I am not saying that M.A. Philly is innocent of anything. But what I will join order and experience to say is that any person who has committed a specific offense should be charged specifically for what he has committed. And if there is no evidence, yes, he should not be arrested. If he is arrested, it should mean that investigation has gone at least very advanced. And what is now remaining is just hearing his own side administratively before the decision whether to bring him before a judge is met. And upon his arrest, the decision to charge him or not charge him should be met immediately. Else he should be given what we call administrative belt to enable him to come back for investigation at the time required, otherwise it should be free. And I think that's the concept of what the last Judith, who's passed on this matter last time. Mr. Aguru, let me get this straight. Is M.A. Philly being held because of crimes he committed as a person or because of the policies he formulated or brought into his administration? What is it that is being held for? Can you be held by law? Let me just say by law, can you be held in custody or charged to court because of policies you made? For instance, an education minister makes a policy in his ministry that there's no more school fee and a lot of people drop out of school. Can he be charged to court because of that? Why is M.A. Philly being held in the first place? This is a very interesting question. It appears that the operators of the Nigerian state, the Nigerian government powers, have not been able to separate the individual from the functions of this office. By our law, a person can only be criminally liable for the conduct he himself does for himself which constitutes a crime. If he sizes the functions of an office, how be it unlawfully? If the person will not be happy, abuse the powers of his office. So he will be punished for abuse of powers and especially when he has properly enriched himself by use of the powers of the office or enriched someone else. But if he does something that is abusive of his powers, he will fall on it. But that again, we tie down to his passion because it is him who personally abuse his powers, the powers of the functions of office. But if he sizes the functions of his office within the ambit of that power, for example, you just made an illustration. Somebody making a policy that requires to start paying fees for tuition in federal institutions or state institutions. That policy itself is within the powers of state, the education minister and the president or the commissioner of education and the governor or even private schools within the principal line is procreator. So these are all functions that they can do because they occupy that office. Now, they are not liable because they have a size on behalf of higher powers. If we believe that school fees should not be paid, we either make law to have law school fees or when you go to court to explain to the court why there is existing laws at law school fees and the court will strike out that function specifically. But making that function, the existence of power in the first place is itself not a crime. And if anyone thinks it's a crime, the property in the person with two is the presently the so-called accused person before the judge or the judge. And so the judge works or suits that concept or conduct of policymaking into a crime. And probably if we see the slums, if we see the banks the person has introduced to see if that is within any written law because nobody is actually meant to be tried or convicted or for contours which do not constitute offenses at the time the person conducted himself or behaved in such manner. This is why every time we have a problem with the way the administration, including the last one, has handled the secretary of powers and discretion. Okay, well, the DSS is now claiming that they have now charged him to court in line with the court order that says release him, charge him to court or release him immediately. They gave seven days to DSS to do that. Now that they say that they've charged him to court, does it hold any kind of water? With this latest judgment? It sounds more sensible. It sounds more sensible. Let me tell you how it works. If, of course, if I commit 10 of crimes, the DSS, if it is within their court view and charge me for just one, is of all the time. But the question is, when you arrested me, for what did you arrest me? If you arrested me for chewing gum and you discover that chewing gum is not an offense, you should not start saying that I slept with my neighbor's wife in Kaduna, which is a friend of adultery. Because at the time if you were arresting me for chewing gum, whether you, again, the issue of my sleeping with my neighbor's wife was not in question. But if, for example, they say that when they went to search his house or when they went to arrest me, they discovered that he has a firearm and some pieces of ammunition. I'm not saying that it's not an offense. If you possess firearms with that license, you will likely be guilty of the offense of possession of firearms. Unless the issue is proven that you are not, in fact, possessing it. Being in custody of something, or something being found around you is not the same as being in possession of it. In law, we have what we call animals for studentry. That is intention to possess. So if somebody has planted something on you, like if, for example, he may be sitting in his house and they carry firearms and drop it on his lap and snap in picture and see the cover firearms on him, that is not possession of firearms. We do not know all of this. Of course, the criminal has been brought before the court. But the idea that they arrested him for terrorism and drug financing and money laundering, and then they end up charging him for holding and owning a pistol with our license. Suggests which hunts. I'm not saying that if he's guilty of that, he should not be pried for that. But we should be careful so that justice will be seen to be done when it is done. I mean, in this maxim, in law, we say that justice should be done and it should manifestly seem to be done. So if a bystander is looking at this house in the area and say, look, we are which hunting this family, then it doesn't look like justice is being done. Anyway, we'll have his own lawyers, I believe. They will speak for him or he will speak for himself in the court concerning this whole thing. But as a conscientious member of the public, we do it to ourselves to make comments of our belief or this belief of the conduct of the public sector. So the conduct I am commenting on is not a matter in the court, but the conduct of the D.S.F.S. as public officers or people in the power of government, which is deemed to have been donated to them by us, the series. Even as we are concerned about the process, because we want to see things done within the ambit of the law, especially with respect to the democracy that we run as a people. We are also mindful of the fact that Godfrey and Omiyefele did some things that Nigerians suffered for. So Nigerians believe that, most Nigerians I know, believe that he should also be brought to book for those things. How then should they go about doing this, lawfully? It's quite simple. Do your investigations properly. Do your investigation. What are those things that he did it? If we can enlist all of those things that he did, we invite him over, saying, look, we want to charge you for so-and-so and so. What do you have to say about, he will give us his own side at the administrative level. Even if it is the police that have custody, I mean the jurisdiction over that or the ESC staff, the jurisdiction over that, or even the DSS, whichever public body that has jurisdiction over the things that we state immediately has done wrong. We invite him. This is why we think he should be punished according to so-and-so sections of so-and-so law. If he, of course, will take record of what he would say, probably in the presence of his lawyer, according to administration of criminal justice law of the various states and all, acts of the federation. We show him everything. He saves his contents, or he's the content of his own mind. In the presence of his lawyer, we record him and bring the case, the court and say to the court, look, we suspect that he may have gone to so-and-so and so. These are our evidence. This is what he said when we confronted him. My Lord, on the basis of this, ask him if he's guilty or not. The court will ask him immediately, see the account that has been read against you. When I say account, I mean the charge, in the charge sheet, our information sheet, whatever name they have called it in the court. This is what is brought before you, before me, against you. What do you have to say, guilty or not guilty? Immediately we plead. He can choose to take his guilty before the court. He can choose to say he's not guilty. And if he says he's not guilty, it becomes our function as the society to prove to the court that Mr. Mephene has done those things we think are wrong according to laws that we have written before Mr. Mephene people we say he has done. So if Mr. Mephene is found guilty by the court, despite his own explanation, he certainly will be punished according to the law. For the situation of working on the and dreaming and fantasizing of what we say Mr. Mephene has done, we ask him to point him to what he said and confronting him with the procedure that the law has suggested. We might end up haunting a witch and in this century, which haunting is not exactly our supposed specialty. Well, thank you Mr. Johnson-Ago. Let's end the conversation there and watch how these things unfold. Thank you so much for your time this morning on the breakfast. Thank you, it's my pleasure. Mr. Johnson-Ago there joining us to take a look at the matters unfolding regarding the CBN governor, the suspended CBN governor, Godwin Amalfele. Stay with us, we'll be back for our second hot topic. Thank you.