 Now we're going to talk to Peter Sunde on Skype. And he can see me only if I stand over here. So he is, of course, one of the founders of the Pirate Bay, as well as being part of Flatter and Hemlis. But I guess today is mostly about the dark side of innovation, being on the dark side of innovation, which you are, Peter. Right now, you could say, because if you would come here, you would risk being arrested, so therefore you're on Skype somewhere where we don't actually know where you are. So Peter, tell us how it is to be a misfit in Kyra's words. I don't know why someone would call me a misfit. Can you hear me, everyone? Yeah. Hello. Hey. I really don't like being from the dark side because I think I'm from the bright side, the only bright side, in both senses. I really, I loved what Kyra said, but it still is, I think we should all have different views on what the dark side really means. I'm going to tell you a little bit of a story about myself and what I've been doing, so maybe you can laugh at that or something. So I am actually both a hacker and a pirate. So I think I fit very well in with Kyra's previous two examples of people that go outside of the normal boundaries rather than being on the dark side, I think. So I started with computers when I was like nine, ten years old and the only way we could use computers at that time, almost 25 years ago, is by copying everything that we could find. Games and software, everything was just copies of everything else. So that's what we did and we never really thought about that. If that's good or bad, it was just the way it was. And that's kind of how we learned anything about computers and how we learned to do whatever we did. And most of my friends from that time are today working in computers in the IT industry and they have started lots of companies and everything. So we never saw ourselves as criminals, but today we would definitely be considered that. So when I grew up a bit, I found lots of other people that had similar background and they started a project called Pirotbyron, which was a wordplay with the Swedish group called Antipirotbyron, which was the anti-piracy bureau. So these guys, they started Pirotbyron by kind of showing that you could improve things by copying and remixing. So you took Antipirotbyron and turned into just Pirotbyron to show that the copy was better than the original instead. And it was kind of the way that Pirotbyron behaved all the time. So Pirotbyron was kind of a lobby group that discussed copyright and internet issues instead of just allowing the anti-pirates to just send out press releases saying copying is bad and so on. So they kind of wanted this discussion around anything about the internet. And well, the way we did it with Pirotbyron was that we always kind of made fun of our opponents and we laughed at them and we did lots of fun events. We've done everything from art to starting projects like the pirate bay. So out of this kind of group of weird people, we had this technology that we weren't really, it wasn't the key of Pirotbyron, but it was one of the biggest things that we ever did. And I think that we closed down Pirotbyron in like 2009 or something. And I think the only thing that I regret that we ever did was actually calling ourselves pirates because it's really aesthetically ugly. I don't like the whole eye patch thing and so on. So that kind of sucked. But we started the pirate bay and you've probably seen the logits like this, if you can see that. It's one of the biggest sites in the world. It still is and it's growing. And it came out of this need of using a new technology instead of the old file sharing technology. So we wanted to show the new technology called BitTorrent, which I guess all of you kind of know and it was not really anything from pirate bay that was big innovation. The only thing the pirate bay did in order to grow to a large extent was actually not closing down because everyone else closed down. So we didn't make any technology. We didn't do anything clever. We didn't have good software. We just had everything that everyone else had, except being kind of stupid and having a goal set what we wanted to achieve. And I think that the only thing we did was to not close down and that was kind of the only goal. And I think that's the big difference between us and CASA and Napster and all of these guys because they kind of gave up because they had other goals than just being there for the people. And just to brag a little bit about the pirate bay, I know that you probably like the pirate bay quite a bit in the audience. Pirate bay is at sometimes half of the internet traffic in the world. So half of everything flowing through the cables on the internet are users of the pirate bay. And pirate bay has never been more than three people doing this as a hobby project. And out of them is one is an alcoholic, one likes drugs and there's a third guy as well. You can guess who's who. That's up to you. But sometimes we've actually had issues like someone from the crew just broke a cable and because he was drunk in the computer center and he actually tripped over a cable and half of the internet traffic vanished for three or four days. So it's kind of a weird situation. We have like one of the actual biggest sites ever in the world just for fun and totally not serious. So it's been very weird having this view of pirate bay from one side where people think it's a huge business and they send emails wanting to come to the head office or at least a local office somewhere to discuss things with us or and so on. Just by, you know, it's been a typical internet project. We also, together with the pirate pirate bay did a lot of weird stuff. Like we had a small, went to a small art festival in Venice, quite big actually, and did a project called Embassy of Piracy and was just asking people to send in small triangles of paper with their own drawings on them. And we just took a lot of pictures and we sent people send pictures of the internet and we printed them out and put them in a small box so you can look at that. But the Italian police heard that the pirate bay was in Venice and they were totally upset about that. So they actually went to the Venice spinal and did a raid against the art festival because they were upset the pirate bay was in Italy and we couldn't run pirate bay in Italy. So people are kind of confused about what pirate bay really is. And when pirate bay started growing to like this really large extent people became very upset in kind of the opponents and they started sending threatening letters to pirate bay and that's, I would say that's actually the thing that made pirate bay big. It's because they sent all of these threatening letters saying that we're gonna sue you for all of the money in the world and sometimes even more money than it's actually printed and they're really upset when we actually started replying to those letters in a way that they didn't really like. So for instance, I'm gonna try and show you something we did is we showed them, can you see this? It's the map of the world. So we showed them where Europe was and where the US was because it was usually companies from the US that always sent threatening letters saying like we are breaking the law in Illinois, Chicago, somewhere, you can't do that. So we just showed them pictures of polar bears saying that we have polar bears in Sweden eating us so we can't really discuss Illinois local copyright laws. And they didn't realize if we were joking or not and they just stopped sending the letters because nothing happened. And those typically what people were upset about this that we didn't kind of cave into the pressure from these companies and they were really, really upset. And we just thought it was fun but we also had this revelation once. We did one of the first crowdfunding things on the internet ever. We wanted to buy a small nation called Sea Land which is somewhere outside of Leeds in England. It's just a small platform. And we wanted to buy it because it was for sale and we didn't know how much money they wanted for it or anything. And it was kind of a joke. We just wanted to like see if people would think it was a good idea. So we started collecting money and we got like $25,000 in one or two days. And the people in Hollywood were really upset about this. So I remember waking up like two days after we started this project, I think we were still drunk, all of us. And we had this, I saw on, I think it was Larry King's show on CNN or something like that, where one of the top lawyers from Disney and the Prince of Sea Land were discussing what will happen when we buy Sea Land? What will happen with the international copyright legislation and so on? And they were really upset. And we just like drank beers and had pizza. That was the whole thing about it. And so people have, you know, there's weird things happening. So in the end, Hollywood decided to send private investigators after us which I never really understood why because we did everything on the internet. So you can't really see what we're doing by placing a car outside of our homes. But it kind of shows that we have different realities that we live in. So in the end, probably most of you know Pirate Bay from the big raid in 2006 where the Swedish police sent like 40 police officers to take all of our servers. And they took 200 other servers as well. And it was just like a big mess. And we decided to not close down Pirate Bay at that time either which was kind of what they wanted. And that was probably the best PR stunt that Pirate Bay ever did was like just reopening after two or three days again, after that catastrophe. And the interesting thing was that you kind of get the feeling of how big Pirate Bay is also when you realize that the raid was an initiative from Hollywood going to the White House forcing the Swedish minister of justice to come there and talk to them about the Pirate Bay issue. And then them going back to Sweden and forcing the police to do a raid against Pirate Bay just six weeks after they said that Pirate Bay was actually legal in Sweden. So we kind of saw the issues we had with corruption and so on in Sweden as well because even the judge in our case happened to work for the pro copyright society in Sweden and so on. So it's been just a mess. And I think it's boring to talk about because it's just a court case. Even though we lost, we kind of won the PR case anyhow. So that's the important thing. And I also wanted to talk a little bit about this whole piracy thing is when we talk about piracy, we always talk about that as being outside the law. And I think that's kind of stupid because we always look at what the law is not what the law should be. And we always talk about how the industry should react to something. And I think the piracy is not just about faults in the industry. It's more like faults in what we can use things for. So I think that people are always looking for some sort of solution. I always hear that Spotify has solved the music problem with piracy. And for me, that's not true at all because there was nothing to be solved. Piracy gave us the possibility to copy whatever so we could reach new music and find new culture. And it's not about just the distribution of it which a lot of people talk about. So when they talk about Spotify, it's easy to access and so on. But when we use all of these solutions, we forget that we lose control over all of our data just as we do with all of the cloud services on the internet. So I'm really scared of talking about solutions because I think we're too much focused on that. And it's kind of the same thing when we talk about all of the new technology that comes out. We talk about innovation and we talk about iPads and smartphones and so on. I'm a little bit scared of those because I think it's not the perfect innovation because they're not meant for people to create things. They are meant for people to consume things. And previously we had a lot of discussions about how to be more creative and so on but we don't have the tools anymore. We don't create tools for being creative. We create just consumerist tools nowadays, anyhow. And instead, one of the issues I had always with all of these discussions is of course that when we talk about piracy, we always talk about people that don't create. But for me, it's always been this problem about who is supposed to be a creator. It's that we always talk about big musicians. We don't talk about the normal musicians that play music as a hobby or just do it for fun or whatever reason you have to make music. It's not always to make money. So then I was part of starting something called Flatter which has this logo. I'm doing very analog things today, which is kind of a Facebook like it's a system where you put money in every month and you decide how much money you want to spend on the internet. And instead of just giving like a small, like $2 for a song, whatever, you decide I want to give two euros per month and you can go click lots of buttons on the internet and the money just gets divided equally amongst them. And it kind of changes who is a creator because all of a sudden you can just Flatter comment on a news article and that will actually be money to someone who created something. So we can change kind of the value of creativity by looking at everything as creativity instead. And one of the things we learned with Flatter quite a lot is that there are issues with not only distributing things on the internet, but also about distribution of money on the internet. So in the midst of Flatter's kind of early started days, WikiLeaks got shot off with their funding on the internet and Visa and Mastercard and PayPal, all of these big companies that just shot off every possibilities WikiLeaks had of getting money. So in the end they came to Flatter and we were the only way you could actually give money to WikiLeaks. It kind of shows the same problem we have with the PayPal is that people are really scared of standing up for what's really important. So WikiLeaks had not been doing anything illegal. PayPal has not done anything illegal, but at the same time, we all get treated as criminals because we are going against kind of the power. And I think it was really sad to see that Flatter was the only company that would kind of go against the powerful corporations just to prove a point. And I think it's not just a question about piracy and so on and distribution, but it's a question about freedom of speech and democracy in the basic of all of this. So in Sweden, we had the FRA law, wiretapping law a couple of years ago. And we also had the iPad law, which allows companies to go and monitor the internet. So we started another project. Let's see if I have a sticker called iPadator. It's a VPN service, which allows you to get encrypted internet connection. So you just connect to iPadator and then you connect to the internet encryptively and no one can see who you are anymore. It's a very small and easy thing to do if you want to be anonymous on the internet. And people are really upset about us for allowing people to be anonymous even though it's a human right because the discussion about what can be done and what can't be done on the internet is never about what we should do. So it's been really sad to see the discussions about anonymity and so on. Lately, I can't speak today, sorry, I had too much coffee. But up until NSA and all of this prism and so on, we haven't really had a good discussion about our rights as people online. And I think it comes down to the same thing. It's all about using technology and so on to be anonymous, but it's not where the problem is. We should also do this politically and discuss what we want from our society. I don't know how much time I have left and I can't hear anything from anyone. I hear nothing. Two minutes. Two minutes, okay. I'll talk about Hemlis a little bit then. So as you said before, I also helped started Hemlis which was the first time I've done a project where people just gets directly what it is. And it's a small app like WhatsApp or something for your phone which allows you to communicate anonymously and using the same technology as with IP data and so on. So we're kind of doing all of these things. And the reason for doing this is not because we want to be entrepreneurs or anything. I actually hate being called an entrepreneur because I'm not into this whole, I wanna make money and be successful and buy a rocket ship, whatever people do with their money nowadays. I think that most entrepreneurs are, when they're successful, they turn into idiots and they want to be rock stars because we have this view of entrepreneurs as the new rock stars, but all of them are just, well, the same thing with rock stars and entrepreneurs like big egos and lots of money and privileges. So we should stop celebrating entrepreneurs and just celebrate innovation instead. I talked for more than two minutes, I think. Yeah, okay, that's it for me, thanks. All right.