 ALOHA, and welcome to Hawaii Together on the Think Tech Hawaii Broadcast Network. I'm Keely Ikeena, and I'm just delighted today that a dear old friend and someone I call a kupuna mentor in some ways is joining me today on our program. He's been in public service for at least 40 years, starting in the neighborhood board, moving on to the state legislature and then serving for decades in the office of the Hawaiian Affairs. We're delighted to have on our program Peter Apo, a musician, a thinker, a cultural expert, a politician, many more things than that as well. Peter, thank you so much for joining us today. Aloha, Mike. Aloha, Mike. Good to see you. It is so good to see you. You know, after that introduction, I'm going to have to send you an invoice. That's right. You know, when I first met you, I was a young youth worker, a pastor out in the Wai'anai Coast, and you had just finished your stint as a teacher there and had gotten into public service. I just appreciate the way you opened your arms to me at the end of the 70s and 80s back then and introduced me a little bit to knowing what it was to live here in Hawaii. Yeah, those are really good times. Yeah, that was a period where I was just starting to enter public service. And you know, I don't really have an agenda for today. I wanted to invite you on board so I could pick your brain a little bit, get what we call mana'o, some of your wisdom. And you've been serving the people of Hawaii and the Native Hawaiian people now for so many decades. What led you into public service? Well, my mom and dad, Margaret and Peter Oppo from Wai'anai, and Makaha, actually we lived in Makaha, had devoted a great part of their lives in public service. My mom served on the state board of education for many, many years. My dad was the community's greatest volunteer and he chaired all kinds of organizations. And then his last years as a leading, a lot of the seniors out there. So it's kind of a natural family thing. And the other is I had in 75, I just returned from many years living on the mainland. And I was kind of absent, absent a lot of things about Hawaii and how things had changed. And especially absent from news or being in touch, this was before social media, what was going on in the Hawaiian community with respect to the politics of being a Hawaiian. And so when I came home in 75 and I got up to speed and the Kaua Lavi was just kind of getting off the ground like them and then the Hokulea, I jumped in with both feet and it became evident to me right away that if Hawaiians were going to make a difference, you had to get into positions of responsibility. Well, Peter, you certainly have been front and center in the Hawaiian movement and have seen a lot in the last four decades. To kind of flash forward a bit from the renaissance of Hawaiian culture in the 70s through our organization politically, what would you say now today in the 2018 period of time is the condition of the Hawaiian movement? My quick take is that the future is still ours to shape. The challenge is getting us all on the same page. It's been a challenge for you and I at the Office of Hawaiian Affairs. It's a challenge for most Hawaiian community organizations. We're speaking earlier what I call my period in the 70s and 80s. There was a tremendous amount of support and emotional support, especially and political support for Hawaiians. You had the beginnings of the Akaka Bill and essentially legislators, the governor's office, Hawaiians generally across the state were pressing for federal recognition. When the Akaka Bill failed later on, the center of gravity of how to deal with the politics of being Hawaiian sort of dissipated. And then with the introduction of social media and people for one person with a laptop who could start a riot if they wanted to, began to change the entire complexion and the processes by which Hawaiians would engage each other. We have since, in my opinion, become a fractionalized people in small groups, each one having a little different idea as to what a Hawaiian vision of Hawaii moving down the line might look like. What do you think the cause of this factionalization is? Why isn't there a greater unity amongst Hawaiians in your opinion? I think, first of all, I think we need to become, as a people, a little bit more informed about the conditions under which we exist. And many of us, I'm surprised and I hate seeing this, don't understand our own history. So there's a lot of information that we think we're making right decisions on when the information itself is faulty. So having an informed electorate, certainly an informed Hawaiian community is really important. And I wish there were a way to do a little better job. The other thing is this, I spoke to you earlier about the notion of transgenerational trauma where family after family, generation after another generation, hard just to get that first kid through high school, get that first kid through college. So all of that kind of in the mix renders us a huge challenge of not only organizing ourselves socially, but then again, unfortunately, Hawaiians still dominate all the negative statistics in terms of quality of life index. As we were prepping for this program, we were talking about the resources that are available to the Hawaiian people. The land estates of the Ali'i Trust, such as Kamehameha Schools, the largest private landholder, or the Department of Hawaiian Homeland. You're looking to get me in trouble. I am outspoken about that. I just wanted to correlate that with what you were saying about the condition of the Hawaiians. My question is simply this, with so much resource available to the Native Hawaiians, why aren't we moving ahead and seeing their needs met better? Leadership. So let me take the first part of that question, which speaks to the resources. If you take the five largest economic institutions, the Department of Hawaiian Homeland, the Office of Hawaiian Affairs, Kamehameha Schools, Queen Lidoa Kalani Trust, and the Queen's Hospital Systems, what you have in terms of economic capacity is billions. I'm not talking a few billion. Kamehameha Schools alone is worth 114 billion. Billions and billions of dollars. You also have within those institutions thousands of acres of land. The Department of Hawaiian Homeland alone has 200,000 acres. So what is wrong with this picture that while Hawaiians are struggling in every negative statistic, especially in terms of home ownership, bread and butter stuff, why with these millions of dollars in all this land can we not, as a community, with these five organizations, begin to dialogue, which we don't, with each other and shape a common vision of a Hawaiian future? Well, you know, that's precisely the question. And I'm going to let you answer it. But first, I just want to punctuate what you said. It isn't for a lack of resources that Hawaiians go without today. It isn't for a lack of finances, a lack of real estate, a lack of a portfolio base, as in the Office of Hawaiian Affairs. You're saying it's a lack of leadership. So what's the solution to this? How do we move ahead? I need people to listen to me. Well, you know, that's interesting to say because you've just announced, and I didn't mention this to our audience, so I will now, you've announced that after your long-term career in public service, you're planning to retire in 2018. You are not seeking another seat in the Office of Hawaiian Affairs, but you're still going to be involved in trying to bring the Hawaiian people together. Actually, you know, being a public elected, especially elected, there's some constraints and some confines. And I'm going to actually welcome not to have to be under the kind of strapped in your seat. Politics of being an elected official. So I do absolutely continue to plan to work and advocate for the betterment of conditions Hawaiians, but I'll just be more free to as to what my choices are and the issues that I wish to engage in. So what's the key to getting the kind of leadership that can collaborate these resources and lead Hawaiians forward? I don't have an answer to that question. Certainly, as a community, Hawaiians have no shortage of talented people. When you look at just the Kamehameha Schools alumni, you know, you've got a hose who lives. So we have a lot of very, very successful Hawaiians economically and politically, but why there has never been any kind of, in my opinion, since the 80s or since the 70s and 80s, some sort of a synergy or some Kamehameha, the first sort of a figure that could rise up again with the failure of the Kaka Bill to bring us together. Well, this may lead us into one of the topics you and I wanted to talk about today, the Office of Hawaiian Affairs. For many, the Office of Hawaiian Affairs represents that agency that is supposed to provide leadership. In fact, the trustees of the Office of Hawaiian Affairs are elected to be leaders, and yet you're saying that we don't have that leadership that the Native Hawaiians need. What's been happening with the Office of Hawaiian Affairs? I think with the Office of Hawaiian Affairs, in my experience, and I served on the first board in 1980, I served for two years, then went to the legislature, and then re-elected in 2010. Essentially, we're incestuous. We only, I don't mean that sexually. We're incestuous in that we only talk to each other. Hawaiians only talk to Hawaiians. Very seldom would you, we have no reach out, as an example, that I'm aware of, to Bishop Street, to where the economy of Hawaii is sort of generated, in spite of the fact that we have a $500 million trust fund. You would think that it would be a no-brainer to talk to the other people who have investments. We are not that well connected to the legislature. We're totally disconnected from the governor's office and have been focused quite some time. We basically do not reach out and seek help or share our challenges and to try to create some kind of a synergy between Hawaiians and the rest of Hawaii. That, I think, is because, in my opinion, within OHA itself, I think we've lacked the kind of leadership that we needed. What you're saying is that for OHA to provide the kind of leadership to Hawaiians that will give them what they need, housing, jobs, education, healthcare, economic development, OHA needs to be better engaged with the entire world around it, with the rest of the state and even beyond. It's a globalized society. OHA doesn't exist in a vacuum, but we somehow think we tend to act. When I say we, Kelly, that may be unfair to you as a relatively new trustee. And to tell you the truth, I really welcome the perspectives that you bring that are fresh, that are sort of off the beaten path in terms of what we do traditionally. Thank you. But I would say this in fairness to those trustees who have, and I don't question their sincerity or their wanting to do well, but most have not, except for being a trustee, have had very little experience in either the political arena, either in serving in other elective offices or in the business community, both big buckets out of which come solutions. One of the areas in which you feel OHA has not done everything it could has been in the development of some of its land holdings in Honolulu. We own vast holdings in the Kakaako region, about 30 acres of prime real estate at the doorstep of Honolulu and in Eevee Lake. What do you see happening here? Again, lack of leadership. Because we are kind of a trust fund, part state agency, that's one issue that dogs us all the time. When are we a trust fund and when are we a state agency? And some people say we're a state agency, period. Forget the trust fund part. And others act as though we're only a trust fund. We have no responsibility as a state agency to the people of OHA who elect us. Now, when you say trust fund, what I think of is the Bishop of State Kamehameha Schools that exists to take a body of land and develop the financial value of that in order to serve a mission. Is that what you're talking about? Yeah, Kamehameha Schools, the elite trust are and so are we mission driven. Their mission is specific. Kamehameha Schools, specific to education. Queenly Lake and Lillio Colony Trust, specific to the orphan that's translated into communities. Department of Horned Lands for home ownership and all of that. So when we come back for the break, I'll ask you a little bit more about how OHA could better operate as a trust. But thank you so much for your Mana'o so far. Absolutely. We're going to take a quick break and my guest today is trustee of the Office of Hawaiian Affairs Peter Apo and he's sharing his thoughts on the Hawaiian people and the relationship to the rest of the community. I'll be right back after this short message on Think Tech of Hawaii's Hawaii Together. Don't go away. Aloha, I'm Richard Concepcion, the host of Hispanic Hawaii. You can watch my show every other Tuesday at 2 p.m. We will bring you entertainment, educational, and also we tell you what is happening right here within our community. Think Tech Hawaii Aloha. Hi, I'm Ethan Allen, host on Think Tech Hawaii of Pacific Partnerships in Education. Every other Tuesday afternoon at 3 p.m. I hope you'll join us as we explore the value, the accomplishments, and the challenges of education here in the Pacific Islands. Welcome back to Hawaii Together on the Think Tech Hawaii Broadcast Network. I'm Kayleigh Ikeena with trustee of the Office of Hawaiian Affairs Peter Apo. Peter reflects back on his career and also looks forward to continuing even as he leads the Office of Hawaiian Affairs to helping to provide leadership of the Hawaiian people. Peter, you raised a very good point earlier that had to do with the identity of the Office of Hawaiian Affairs, whether it's just another state agency or whether it has an identity as a trust, which would mean it governs a body of land and resources, a portfolio, finances, and should grow that trust in order to meet practical needs. What do you think are some of the first steps that OHA needs to take in order to fulfill that vision? Well, first, fundamentally, there are 500,000 Hawaiians, 250,000 are in Hawaii, 250,000 mostly in California. So when we say a trust, those are the benefits. We have 500,000 beneficiaries. To me, I bifurcate the mission. The mission is stated very simply in the constitutional language that established OHA, to the betterment of conditions of Native Hawaiians. And I bifurcate that into two challenges. One is the political challenges that Hawaiians face toward self-determination. And the other is the one that I'm more concerned about that I think OHA could really, really make some serious inroads into. And that is the quality of life index, those things that make life better. Hawaiians are not much different from other people in Hawaii. They want the same things, home ownership, access to healthcare, access to education for our children. You know, I mean, the list goes on, but the quality of life index is not rocket science. And it's something that if we could actually reframe our budgeting process and our strategic plan to place a very heavy focus on how to better the living conditions of Hawaiians, that would give us a very strong guide toward moving in a direction that actually helps the solving the transgenerational problem of poverty, Hawaiian families in poverty, generation after generation after generation. So if I hear you correctly, you'd like to see a focus not so much on OHA being involved in sovereignty issues and national issues, but more involved in bread and butter issues that help to develop the lives, the lives and the economic sustainability of Native Hawaiians. In terms of how we would spend most of our resources in allocating those resources, I would prefer to put it all, most of it, into a quality of life issues. The other part, the politics of being Hawaiian, we cannot do that in a vacuum. So on that, while I'm not for spending a lot of money in that area, there are other agencies that have responsibility for that also, that we should be working, seeking partnerships and work together toward, you know, what we mean by self-determination. For instance, working with the LA trust, working with the state legislature, working with the people of Hawaii, you know, as to shaping a direction that is culturally true to who we are as a people, but also moving on the politics of being Hawaiian in a way that helps everyone. Now you have written quite a bit on the fact that there's much diversity amongst Native Hawaiians in terms of the vision as to what moving forward should be. And you have, in a sense, a range, I think, from the presence, which you call status quo, to other models. What are, just quickly, a couple or three of these models that Hawaiians could be looking at, and am I correct in saying- Which thing do the politics- Yes, and am I correct in saying that you feel that Oha shouldn't necessarily favor one model over another, but could facilitate the dialogue? I think, well, there are a number of options. The most highly touted option over the years has been federal recognition, which simply puts Hawaiians at the same self-determination choices that Native American Indians have, because they are recognized through the Congress. That would be one that's been the prevailing one. At the other extreme of the pendulum is the option to essentially secede from the United States and become a sovereign nation again. And then in between, there are options like status quo. A lot of people won't talk about that. There are a lot of Hawaiians who make a lot of money through entitlements. A lot of entitlements that come through the Congress in hundreds of thousands of dollars. So there are those who benefit from that, and I'm not saying this is a bad thing, who get nervous when you talk about rocking the boat politically that might affect those entitlements and the amount. So there's a third option, status quo. And between those three, federal recognition, status quo, independence, between all of that, there are a few other ones. But the decision as to which option I think has to be left, or would prefer for it to be left to Hawaiians, through some sort of a Hawaiians-only referendum. So you see Oha's role not so much to be the leadership in terms of the political model, but really to be concerned with providing those index of life issues, health, education. Right. And then on the political model, I see our role as providing an educational opportunity for people to learn about what the options are, and then whether it's appropriate or not as to whether any Oha money could be committed to somehow at least in some way support a referendum that will probably have to be funded by other organizations. Learning and understanding the history behind our practices and what actually is culturally the Hawaiian way has been something you've been committed to quite a bit. And you've been concerned about current issues that are debated without reference to the actual history. I mean, one of them happens to be the issues surrounding Mauna Kea on the Big Island. And I don't have to tell you what kind of controversy is going on over the question of whether there should be a 30-meter telescope or not. But when you have some perspectives on understanding Hawaiian history here. First of all, the Mauna Kea situation in which Hawaiians are playing a big role in terms of opposing the 30-meter telescope is an important thing for the people avoid to take note of because what we're talking about here is public policy. The objections that I disagree with the objections, the basis on which objections from the loudest speaking Hawaiians are that any digging into the mountain constitutes a cultural injury or any intrusion into the airspace, the air column above the mountain is a cultural injury. The history shows us just the opposite. I mean, there's a seven mile vertical, seven mile high quarry that ancient Hawaiians used to mine to get the best stone for their tools and their weapons. So the concern is that it seems that as the years go by, there are these new customs and traditions that are kind of made up in order to suit the politics of the moment. And that is my opinion and that is what I see happening. Mauna Kea is one of those things. And people ought to be concerned about it because in the case of Mauna Kea, we are talking about a public policy issue. The opportunities that a 30-meter telescope would provide for the people of Hawai'i, for education process, for opportunities in science and advancement, and to become a global leader on something that is so natural. Then if you want to talk about cultural validation, there is no Hawaiian cultural endeavor that is more important than the search for knowledge. The search for knowledge has been fundamental to Hawaiian culture, to the existence, and the quality of life that was afforded Hawaiians during pre-contact before Captain Cook came, managing, you know, the notion of aquaculture, the Hawaiians had been practicing that a thousand years before the word even got into the English vocabulary, you know what I'm saying? So same thing with the stars. So these things, cultural validation, I was disappointed, trustee, that our leadership did not see fit to pursue, you know, proposal I had, which is OHA needs to stand up and to create some kind of a template where we can measure on any cultural claim of injury on what is traditional, what is customary, how do you prove that? And there are ways to prove it. I won't go into it now. So your concern, trustee Peter, is that political decisions or public policy decisions, particularly maybe to oppose the 30-meter telescope, are being made on the basis of Hawaiian claims that may not be valid claims, that we need to vet those claims. That's what you'd like to see happen. And with that, I also do need to make a disclaimer, which I perhaps should have done earlier, and that is I'll say to the audience that while Peter and I are trustees of the Office of Hawaiian Affairs and state agents in that sense, we're here simply representing our own personal ideas. Nothing would say represents the Office of Hawaiian Affairs. We're here in our personal capacity. And that's a good point to make also that even amongst us as trustees, we have the right and the responsibility to express our own opinions. And you've been an advocate for that. Absolutely. You've looked beyond merely the issue of the Hawaiian people and their relationship with the surrounding environment. You've done some thinking about what constitutes being a Hawaiian. I'm going to ask you to put your philosopher cap on. That one is not as heavy as it can be. It'll be a good issue. Obviously, one way to claim your Hawaiianess is by ethnicity, right? By blood. Okay. That one is a no-brainer. But here's what I have. The word Hawaiian is not a Hawaiian word. It's an English word. And it was a word that was used during the early during the days of the kingdom when Hawaii was a kingdom for people to say, I am Hawaiian, which meant I am from that place called Hawaii, like I am a Californian or I am an Oregonian. That's what that word means. And somehow down the line, it got to mean that you were of the blood. And that's not what the word Hawaiian means, but it is accepted. So I think sometimes people get confused. Now, we've got about 30 seconds, Trustee Peter. How would you... Everyone can be a cultural Hawaiian. If you practice the Hawaiian culture, if you practice Hawaiian values, if you live with Aloha, if you embrace all those things that define one as a Hawaiian, you are a Hawaiian as far as I'm concerned. Well, what a great note to end on today. Trustee Peter, I just want to tell you how much I appreciate your wisdom and your words and your leadership. And I hope we'll see you around even after your tenure as a trustee on the Aloha board. Thank you. It's been fun here and I really enjoy it. Thank you. My guest today, Trustee Peter Apo of the Office of Hawaiian Affairs. He's certainly going to be in the scene of Hawaiian issues and issues affecting all people in the state of Hawaii as he retires from the board. But it was our privilege and pleasure to talk with him today to get his mana'o, which is his wisdom. I'm Kaili Ikeena with the Think Tech Hawaii Broadcasting Network, saying Aloha. Aloha.