 All right, well hello everyone and welcome to another edition of the Hyperledger Healthcare Special Interest Group. My name is Mike McCoy, I'm the chair of the group and we're going to get started into our first session of 2022 here. So one, I want to be able to preference that this is an open-source working group. Please do not share anything that is under NDA or that wouldn't be necessarily publicly available for you and your consistent ones and your stakeholders and your teams that you work with. We want to be able to make sure that no one is shamed here that every idea and experience level of part of the blockchain and healthcare ecosystem working group is not downed, is not frowned upon and that we don't down anyone for their experiences of what they actually know in the space. So please have an open mind, please have a positive mind when interacting with people here in the forum. I also then want to be able to give room for introduction so Michael was able to give an introduction as he hasn't been part of the group for a while. I believe Baldwin, I don't know if you've been joining us before but if you want you have the floor you can give an introduction on yourself. Hello, I'm just turning on my videos here. My name is Baldwin Mack, I'm actually crashing this meeting because I was extended the invitation by one of my colleagues, Uli Broto, who's part of this group I believe. I am coming from Borenger Engelheim, a pharmaceutical company based in Germany. Physically I am located in Canada and what I, the organization that I'm part of within BI is we're part of the clinical development and operations organization. So we're the ones who are developing the drugs and running the clinical trials to develop our new compounds for the various indications that we work in. So my interest in joining this group in in blockchain is because a couple years ago in Canada we ran a pilot looking at blockchain technology and clinical trials and we've completed that project and I've since continued to work on applying blockchain and healthcare as part of the pharma ledger which you can see in the back background of that I have here which is the IMI consortium of industry partners that is halfway through our mandate to look at use cases of blockchain in healthcare. So I'm leading one of the groups, one of the work streams within that consortium and so I'm joining this meeting because we introduced me to this group and I thought I'd sit in and just to find out what the discussion is about and to learn from everyone else that's on the scene. Very happy to be here. Albin thank you very much we've had many different pharma ledger members either present or be part of the discussion so glad to have you added to the group. And then Sean I apologize Sean have you ever given an introduction before in this group? I don't believe so and I'm sorry I was late I was on another call my name is Sean Bohan I am a new community architect on the hyper ledger team and I'm just lurking on calls to get speed on what's going on I was involved in hyper ledger indie from 2017 to 2019 and I'm back so hi. Sean's back that's all that matters now welcome and glad to know you're part of the hyper ledger team that's awesome new folks am I missing anyone that would like to give an introduction? I think that's everybody. All right moving on is there any community announcements I see Pete actually mentioned one in the chat Pete if you want to talk further we have it on according events and presentations between for Lakes Foundation Public Health and Consensus Health with Daniella and Jim and Heather and I believe there's others but please Pete tell us more about it. Sure thanks thanks Mike and happy new year to everyone. Yeah as some people know Consensus Health has really over the last few months really sort of developed and defined the veteran community as a group as a population group community really requires a special focus in terms of healthcare and we're doing a lot of stuff in that area made some announcements which are on the Consensus Health website and one of the things we kicked off with Jim from the Lakes Foundation Public Health is a special I guess focus on that within LFPH I'm going to let Jim talk about that when he's ready to do so I think he still needs to jump through one one hurdle to before he can talk too much about that but I think that's coming in about a couple of weeks but kind of as a precursor to that we pulled together a webinar at the last minute as we always do at Consensus Health as Mike probably remembers but we've got a great lineup I mean notably with Jim and Daniella and the webinar is focused on open source and how it is how using it can really benefit the veterans community and obviously Heather's on the webinar talking about what we're doing in that space and also Dave Metcalf from Global Blockchain Ventures who's invested in some healthcare companies and in one of the initiatives that we're doing in the Veterans space so would love to see everyone on it. Alright Pete thank you very much yeah Global Blockchain Ventures is an investor of Consensus Health and of Kaleido who provides a lot of blockchain solutioning in the space as well. Before we do move forward I want to make sure Lincoln Fellingham I don't know if you've been part of our group before and we'd love to have an introduction learn what interests you in joining the group. Yeah you bet I've I've actually been on the distribution list for a couple of years now very infrequent attender but I'm a technology executive for a healthcare supply chain company a large one in the United States and have some substantial interest in blockchain and how it's developing was particularly interested in the the item that made today's agenda around meta ledger my firm is actually starting to evaluate it so got some some particular interest in that part for today. Absolutely well welcome thank you for joining us so we already got information on an upcoming event within Linux Foundation Public Health and Consensus Health there's also one all the way in March coming up with the British Blockchain Association which is going to be the Blockchain International Science Conference it's their fourth running of this show and I attended I believe two years ago and I found it very beneficial it had more of a worldview more of an EU UK view than we typically get here within a hyperledger in the United States activity when it comes to blockchain and healthcare but I highly encourage anyone if their company can sponsor it I think it's about a hundred US dollars to be able to join but something like that but British International Science Conference check out the link and also I will share this link in the chat so everyone can just access the links instead of just staring at the thing that I'm sharing so I'm putting that on right now cool all right and we'll go into industry news and research group items but also before we get into that is there any events I'm missing are there any upcoming events and presentations that people can add in the chat that I can add into here as well that we should be looking out for in January or February all right I guess I got it covered okay industry news research and group action items so research came out about two weeks ago that was accredited and published broadly though most of the research came in 2019 and 2020 from the University of Birmingham on the health sector's experience of blockchain and cross disciplinary investigation of real transformative potential I thought this was substantial like very good research and showed some of the difficulties and the strengths of the space very well they went into a lot of great detail in the use cases and mostly through use cases within the United States and within the UK so we'll go through this paper a little bit they talked about you know there's more people are more talking about the experiences like they mentioned professional credentials exchange which is the blockchain physician credentialing use case they mentioned the one that I am very close with within humana and the snap to health alliance for provider data exchange and using a blockchain to be able to bring those records and things together and they also mentioned I believe melody and and the substrate project as well let me be in another page but oh they mentioned the coalesce health alliance so coalesce is not active anymore they are they're the ones that used the entities within Blue Cross Blue Shield to help in providing organizational units with length real-time access to standard set of spend data across Blue Shield members so they highlighted those they highlighted the United Kingdom yeah this is where I believe they mentioned melody and they mentioned the guard time and instant access medical health gateway project there so they highlighted some very beneficial consortia and projects that are out there in industry today they also talked about some transnational blockchain systems this is where they talked about melody so we're all pretty familiar with these use cases and these these concepts and talked about federated learning how that's beneficial the challenges though I thought they were pretty spot-on so blockchain and healthcare implementation challenges it's organizational commitment it's the interoperability approach it's internal governance standardization and then the normative tensions I think were pretty spot-on as well so I thought this research really hit the nail on the head when it comes to not many people understand it there's not enough rails to be able to connect different bridges most of these things are permissionless and though permission blockchains do have value within the members if they want to be able to expand more value they need to go into public blockchain solutions to be able to to hash and be able to connect with many different multidisciplinary members of cooperative models and that only permission blockchains will give you incremental improvements though public blockchains will give you radical and disruptive improvements into different sectors and and that was kind of like the overview of this research it had more of a negative bent that like these concepts unless you get the they're more social trust problems and computational trust problems which we have discussed in these forums as well as being major to development but I wanted to know if anyone else took a look at this research or has an opinion on the things we just mentioned anything whatsoever did anything hit a chord for anybody all right well I assume everyone has to take a read at this and and give it some more thought but yeah I thought this was highly accurate it does have more of a dated publication as most of this research came from 2019 but I highly encourage everyone to take a look at this and and give it a read it has a lot of good commentary from people in the space that we all respect so give it a go all right next up I wanted to be able to highlight I believe it's region strife institute and the national institutes of health have created privacy-preserving record linkage technology for COVID-19 clinical research what that looked like was being able to leverage the region strife record linkage technology they were able to advance co-19 clinical research the data as we know that federally learning and privacy-preserving technologies where you can be able to send the model not the data and be able to keep actual data that may be compromising at bay while interacting with the valuable data sets in the the the clinical data sets that may be valuable this was not the use case of how to be able to do so and he knows that when sites contribute to EHR data for their patients they can define what kind of linkage they agree to for instance if they choose to link to mortality data but not test data and consent and prior auth data in networks and consortias are highly valuable I know that my group in humanity has done a lot of research into this and has been looking to find ways where we could be able to maximize consent to data in networks rather than the things that may be compromised or not valuable for consortias and another valuable example of how a company has done this and for NIH it's it's it's very it's very applicable for one they they made a contract that's worth more than 2.3 million dollars over the first year and they're looking to expand in with that and this is for COVID specific data right so uh in emergency situations some data may be more valuable than others like mortality data or like respiratory data than other things there so any other opinions or commentary here so uh so so Mike uh the just first glimpse you know over this paper and then uh so I touch it touch a uh important uh topic is you know it is you know privacy preserving and then uh so this is one thing that you know blockchain's been looking at because it is an inherent characteristics and of the system so I would look more about this paper and share with you about okay why inspirations you know this can bring to academia and also to the industry so I would love to discuss with you more about this later on if I get a chance thank you yeah yeah and part of that privacy preservation is that the tokens contain no relationship with the true identifiers and they can't be used to reproduce the identifiers so uh like we all know within blockchain like the data is now actually live on chain it just shows a hash and so the hashes that are agreed upon to be able to be distributed to the members within the network of the consortia are then made into a token and then when that token is approved upon that is inaccessible to all the participants as part of the network as well so that's a part of it but yeah we definitely could uh could enjoy a further discussion on this and how it's valuable and then it's interesting here that someone serves as a as a linkage linked honest broker because I guess someone in the that federated consortia needs to be able to combine the different datasets together and so they kind of if anything have access to all the data that's usable within this which strikes me as it doesn't it's not truly privacy preserving because then someone or you know even though it's a trusted broker it's still like a third party that could like humans inevitably uh cannot be fully trusted uh just the machines can know because machine just told yes or no right or wrong whereas humans you know we have different conventions and things that make us uh potentially compromise things or not like we're more in a gray area and they're not a game t that there's full privacy preservation but I think for this small set and this use case it's valuable because you know you just want to be able to have an or curator or orchestrator be able to get it out to all the right parties uh which is probably valuable but I think for datasets that are more compromising where no one would want to have anything transacted or shared uh this could be uh less beneficial yes adrian go ahead so if anybody's looked at this uh what kind of transparency provisions are there for the individual uh patient uh when technologies like this whether they're being centralized or not in the sense that you just mentioned uh I find it really concerning that uh a lot of this sort of presumes HIPAA's uh de-anonymization rules and things like that as a way to avoid transparency and what's going on uh both at the community level and at the individual level uh so if anybody is familiar with uh tprl in this respect I'd love to know more thank you I'm personally not as uh familiar with pprl but if anyone else please chime in in other words it says right there it's a it's a way of avoiding patient consent uh you know it's right there at the top of your screen um and um you know that's the point I'm making not sure identifiers are used yeah I'd be interested what identifiers are used then in that transaction so so so this is the first time I hear about this term p uh pprl so so you talk about is a way to avoid patient consent so does that mean that traditionally we want to collect anything from a respondent or the people who hope we hope to get information from we need to get a consent from them right so so this is saying that like most of the data that could be compromised and uh in HIPAA or GDPR standards isn't transacted and that is preserved in privacy through the pprl method I think is what they're they're saying okay so does that mean that once we use this technique or this uh technology called p uh pprl we no longer need to get the patient's consent or we still that is what they're claiming that they're able to do with NIH and potentially CMS here as well I'd say okay I mean I want to just I'm not going to belabor this I want to just put this in context uh you know the Tuskegee experiment fiasco is kind of the the example case the uh the poster child for what I'm talking about um it's easy uh whether it's Tuskegee or uh you know uh Google make a deal with London hospital trust to get data it's easy to have an impact on a population or society as a whole that is acceptable to the participants of this federation like the one they're describing but is otherwise secret or not shared uh openly uh with uh other people and so we have to be very very careful when we talk about arrangements like this uh because it's uh both parties you know both the parties that collect the data and the parties that uh learn from the data or use the data have an interest in these things going forward and uh there's often very little oversight uh from the social perspective totally agree and they'll soon incorporate CMS claims data which good luck I've been living in that for a while now and it's it's not fun but that'll be interesting to see how it grows all right next up uh so recently in the kessions shared their experience with working chronicle in the meta medilegic consortium uh with uh in regards to contracts and charge backs in pharmaceutical management uh they will pull this up uh so through the medilegic consortium which is created by Chronicle then the company led by Suzanne Somerville uh they've used the digital solution where chargebacks happen in wholesale distributors to sell medicine but pressing and eligibility contracts are negotiated separately which can complicate the transactions leading to all those charge backs so it helps smooth out that they use a blockchain technology to be able to reduce complexity of procurement for health systems as they face challenges with rebuilding and the effort towards optimizing the process expected reduce errors by 90 percent on meta ledger and uh these are some of the findings that they published out with meta ledger and and everything within their working group uh this is still within uh it's is still just a working group similar to all you have within hyper ledger and hasn't been uh productized and hasn't been made widely available for anyone to be able to join but through McKesson and their partners they've been able to create an estimated 500 million dollars in value by eliminating duplicate efforts due to using a chain system uh I believe don't quote me on this I believe they're using a quorum blockchain that might be using hyper ledger fabric as well I know in different uh working groups and consortias they've used both but uh very interesting and uh and love to hear anyone else's opinion on this so it sounds like they actually would have transaction pricing product pricing verified against contract based on records on the blockchain is that so we're interpreting here as well so I think a lot of times is once a particular pharmaceutical is tied to an an event that that event is then hashed in time stamps and so the original time stamp of that pharmaceutical is then realized as the record of truth and then anyone moving forward can then be tied back like no the original payment actually happened here or some reconciliation goes through smart contracts to be able to make sure that the either the patient or the distributor the manufacturer all can agree upon this time stamp this date and just automates the process of getting to reconciliation quicker and and that's more so where I think the the blockchain network comes in but it's permissioned so you have to be a permissioned entity to be able to access that um that reconciliation piece through smart contract okay yeah because it doesn't sound like they're they're chasing the pharmaceutical provenance right it's it's really about the the transaction itself yeah it's a transaction payment not actually like if the pharmaceutical so I guess part of that is like the provenance of it like it was the right drug that actually made it to the patient's hands I believe they're not getting patients to validate this per se it's mostly just the manufacturer and the distributor uh so that's more so where I'm seeing this being used okay yeah so as I mentioned I'm in the in the um the healthcare supply chain at my firm and I'm quite familiar with the contracting process that pricing and eligibility piece that they mentioned up front is where it gets really interesting because the contracts themselves are complex the price is just negotiated um they they have a lot of uh there's a lot of conditions to achieving a certain price for a healthcare provider and so that that's the part that I'm interested in is capturing the transaction is one thing but my sense is that the charge backs are largely happening because the the transaction executed at a price that wasn't consistent with the actual contract that is in place because everyone at all parties to the transaction have such a hard time of confirming that the correct price is determined and there are also like one-to-one relationships like let's just say you have all these I know traditionally a lot of people have them on like share points or excel sheets where they just they validate that this is the drug pricing that's agreed upon and and they have that between one or two partners but if there's many different organizations that are then trying to agree upon and be able to as a coordinated group agree upon this instead of using one-to-one centralized relationships they use a distributed uh method to be able to see the price all in real time more so and then agreeing upon whether that's right or wrong or whether it's in the framework so yeah that's exactly right there's usually I think typically four parties to these transactions when you include reimbursement for them and so yeah everyone has a different opinion of what the price should be and that's where all this charge back and manual work comes in is trying to after the fact then figure out whether it was correct okay interesting anyone else on this piece and this was just after the fact kind of just you know it's kind of like a market marketing play to showcase that they have a real a real product that exceeded value so um kudos to the team over at chronicle we'll go on to the next one so a couple of progress points from uh Vita or Vidodal I say different ways because I'm an American but uh team at molecule molecule is kind of a blockchain DAO orchestration company where they're looking to create many different DAOs to be able to incentivize scientific funding and research for specific cases where maybe they're not getting funded in major entities but they could be in individual basis so one molecule created their second IP rights and data access function via an IP NFT they did one earlier this summer that transacted value this one was more of a creating an art for like an NFT so you're also selling like the artistic value but then you're also then granting access to specific data that could be used for uh autography so uh I can't say that words are I some scientific words I'm just not great at but uh the the benefit here is that a community in a DAO was able to then benefit and fund this NFT that then gave access to particular data that would be great for this type of solution and problem and it was particular to uh the coral chuck lab coral chuck lab uh I think they're based in yeah they're based in Newcastle and so people from all over the world and online community were able to fund this data be publicly accessible for others to utilize uh within longevity research so another had to divide it down everything they've done there very beneficial for the space and showcases another reason why decentralized science or the design movement as now is coming on and twitter and all these other online forums could be highly valuable and uh it was transacted for 285 USDC very valuable and beneficial to the lab so this lab may not be able to be funded by University of Newcastle or by investment or private equity but a community thought it was valuable enough to transact $285,000 or USDCs into it so Hey Mike it's Erica I have a question um so whoever purchased this what do they get they get access to the data from the lab or I'm just trying to wrap my head around so Vitadal the DAO owns the piece of art and they own the IP rights and they purchase it okay yeah the DAO the DAO like voted on it and purchased it yeah so anyone that's part of the DAO can then access that data and the data is coming from this lab correct okay I'm just yeah interesting all right I know it's tough to get your mind around at first glance but yeah okay thanks so um so so Mike so the use of the uh unable to is actually nothing to do with the the data the data set right the use of art the art is just uh it's kind of just like the um look it was like the profile picture of the data um okay it's kind of just a pretty thing to make it look cool um when you're okay so I don't like to put on a motion for publicity right there's a lot of motion so it would be like a promotion for or like for publicity purposes right yeah for sure okay okay okay so this is interesting okay so uh the the nft you know non-contractable token can be used for the marketing or promotion purposes I'll beat the the actual thing being transact at is the data set the data set is transacted with people within the Vita DAO so if you're part of the DAO right if you're a member of that DAO and you pay whatever the the membership is to be part of the DAO you then through that membership get the access rights to that data oh okay okay so you you are like you know paying to join a club and once you are into the club and you have access to that asset you know which the data you need to do for the research or for for analysis correct but the the fee and the the you know what you have to pay to be part of that is less within the DAO because it's distributed across many other like-minded scientists or people that really could want to access that data so you individually if you wanted to access that data from the Coral Chuck Lab at Newcastle uh at the University of Newcastle it may cost you thousands hundreds of thousands of dollars but as an individual it may only cost you maybe 500 to a thousand dollars to be able to access it so it makes it cheaper for the individual but as a group and a whole you all have mutually beneficial access to the data now oh that's a great innovation that's good that's good innovation why we highlighted here yeah I wonder if there would be restrictions for the DAO who can access it within the DAO because could I just join the DAO and then look at the data I'd want to imagine they wouldn't want that uh that's kind of what you could join the DAO and access this data yeah but I mean what's prohibiting someone from joining right like they uh the onboarding in the verification process I think they're trying to validate through orc IDs or you know different like you have to have an edu email in some cases for some of these things so uh the validation the the digital identity verification process is probably the toughest thing within molecule by the DAO to try and manage but I definitely know they're working on it so that just not like but even so that they kind of encourage like biohackers and anyone to be part of this as well so I don't think it's a very strenuous process yeah it makes sense Mike just to get a broader understanding so data DAO are they in the the um research data space they're in the crypto web 3 space so molecule is founded by one person who I used to work with at a company called consensus consensus is like an ethereum blockchain solution fighter and then another person named Tyler Galato who is a former research scientist uh and believes in certain research that has been underfunded for years where individuals and potential biohackers can be part of it as well and not biohackers like they're trying to destroy people's lives it's more people that are interested in pharmaceuticals and interested in the benefits of of certain things and how they could do another own rather than being part of a lab and so molecules creating different DAOs like they have Vita DAO which is for longevity research they have another one called Psi DAO which is for psychedelics and mental health research and uh in these DAOs they're going to target specific members to be to help with scientific funding and research that could utilize the data information and can uh want to benefit or fund specific research that they believe and they're passionate about and they'll do it with their own time and money but they'll do it because they're passionate about it or the individual contributor or the group is very passionate about it and so more decentralizes instead of leaving like private equity investors major universities and funds and labs as the only people that can fund these things it decentralizes the model for individuals to be able to contribute funds to it. Great thank you for that. Hey Mike are they actually doing the research or are they like how are they how are they taking that step to actually use the data that they're receiving and and doing something with it? I imagine a lot of the members of the DAO are data researchers or CROs or could benefit from this because it'll benefit them in the pharmaceuticals and the therapeutics they create um I assume like you're only putting mind in this if you could utilize the actual thing right like I'm only going to be part of uh like for one there's something called links DAO for golfers out there right I'm only going to be part of links DAO if I like to play golf right or if I can utilize a course that they're going to eventually own as a group one day right so I assume most of the people that are part of that DAO either utilize that data or can receive some type of monetary or social benefit from access me. Interesting I'd just be interested to see if I actually deal with that. Yeah thanks. Absolutely cool and we will move on to the other part so another thing from B to DAO by I call it by DAO whatever I'm just going to keep on calling it by DAO you're now able to purchase a glycogen test believe uh yeah a glycan age test to get your insights of your glycomb and biological age through your Vita tokens so if you're part of VitaDAO or VitaDAO in particular and you can use Vita and other cryptocurrencies to buy this test to be able to get insights into your glycomb and biological age very interesting very all you have to do is just scan the QR code pay the certain amount of Vita or whatever the standard like conversion rate is between like if you're in bitcoin whatever your crypto is and you pay to be able to access this test very beneficial because I think people that are crypto rich would benefit in this whereas if they don't have fiat currency or other things to purchase this it uh but they have crypto it makes it valuable for them so very interesting use case here wanted to share it for everyone. Next uh Brian Armstrong in the holiday break actually so Brian Armstrong is the founder of Coinbase he came out with an epigenic epigenetic reprogramming company to help extend the human lifespan we're continuing on the whole longevity piece here so uh he's creating a company that's helping to reprogram the human gene expression similarly what this really is is he's trying to reprogram and treat the end of human life as the disease right so we're only on average I think males last about 80 years old or 78 years old women last about 80 years old especially in the United States in particular and Brian's trying to create a company that'll target that problem as the disease and create solutions and and concepts and therapeutics that help uh people live longer is his uh general goal here so it to be fair why is he focused so much in the space his wife is actually a geneticist or she's either like a clinical informatics, a geneticist or a geneticist somewhere in the San Francisco California area at an actual hospital so I think he's getting a lot of these motivations from his wife where his wife can eventually work in these type of things too but a very interesting concept then uh he hasn't said anything about crypto or blockchain being involved in this I just thought it was interesting that the man who runs one of the largest centralized exchanges in the world uh is focused so much in the space I want to have it verbal and also doesn't hurt when you're worth billions you can work on projects that are interesting for you so all right uh one of the ones that last things that are particularly involved in blockchain healthcare uh an individual named uh Nikhil oh god I was free his last name but his twitter handles Nikhil in it he comes up with a lot of different marketing material and ideas within the healthcare space through his blog called Autopocket he had some interesting ideas for crypto and healthcare such as decentralized EMRs insurance styles and drug picking models uh that I thought were highly interesting and should be relevant for us to discuss here so um he featured some jobs he's talked about crypto how blockchain works and all those things uh decentralized EMR could be interesting start attracting users and third-party developers to build features on top to make the user experience more valuable it's like epic it ends up attracting more users tracking third-party developers eventually it makes more sense for platforms to extract increasingly more value now why does someone believe this will work or why does someone believe this won't work one I think it won't work because uh Epic Inciner don't have the incentive to do so they pay a lot of developers on their teams already to add certain features and to work with hospitals and to do the educational piece here and making sure this is actually relevant for them uh and and they have a fee for service to have a model right where they they don't really open source of decentralized many if anything out and they are making a very good dollar on that service so uh unless you know they have the incentive to really change their model like unless more their users and more hospitals are going to decentralize file storage or they're going to other things like that I don't know if it would be as relevant for them to do it though their features would get better and this could be a way for them to enhance features and enhance experiences I'm not sure that they have the the real incentive to do so yeah I was just going to say Mike um we don't really have a way to prove that you know this can offer something better than what they already offer in an evidence-based way that that healthcare organizations will listen to um so there's it's really hard to you know aside from the incentive we don't have like a proof in a way that is digestible for healthcare executives and organizations to listen to anyone else have an opinion on that within the EMRs in general I also think generally a lot of people that utilize EMRs and EHRs the most that have rare and chronic conditions um that could extract the most valuable from value from their EMR a lot of times if you ever notice when you're sick or if you and this is not across the board this is just generally speaking and most data and analytics coming from here generally when you're sick you actually want to look at screens less and you want to interact with online communities less a little bit uh due to various different factors uh I think you know healthy people's data is not as valuable in EMRs and unless you're talking about certain other things and those those things just aren't as valuable to create pharmaceuticals or therapies for until you get people uh who are in rare chronic state wanting to constantly be online I don't know if that'll be a really valuable thing but I can prove and roll I think insurance styles have a actual um have actual relevance here so you mentioned about Nexus Mutual we've done that a lot here in this group uh Nexus Mutual is a global mutual fund that you can pull insurance together with other people yet uh they've had some issues recently when it comes to like cases that were verbally disclosed to being covered actually weren't covered through the smart contract and the smart contracts as we all know that once you create a smart contract uh unless you're using Tesos uh you can't really edit or improve the smart contract unless you're in a private permission blockchain if you're in a public one it's very hard to edit those smart contracts they're kind of once you make it it's it's very hard to change or or edit um but I do believe like for claims uh of catastrophic events like not like covering your dental or covering your vision but if you were to get in a car accident or you would have a heart attack things like that I think insurance styles in those cases would be highly valuable for people to join um and instead of covering the minimal things just doing for things that really uh really take uh take some of the most catastrophic catastrophic events it could be highly valuable so it could work like this does anyone else have an opinion on this too all right guess that uh so Mike yeah so my my first impression about this uh this flow chart is that this is a process right and then from the beginning to the end that you know I think blockchain offers you know a perfect platform to to implement this for sure and now you know the point is if you won't try if we try to approach it from like startups or like innovators perspectives you know who's gonna stand out to propose this would this uh belongs more to the the the private sector or individuals or this uh belongs to more about the the public sector the government and then so who who enjoys the better position to to to to propose this it's a very good question um I think you propose this if you're well for the insurance case you propose of your health insurance company to you and your stakeholders and say hey we want to take less risk on some of the lower things but we'll take it on the higher things and we'll allow our members to make the decision there and you kind of do it that way that's the most effective way a government entity to propose this and be pretty successful I don't think like a patient community could be very successful in doing this right uh there's plenty of patient-based communities out there on Facebook groups and and uh health union and another type of social media outlets but uh but yeah those are some of the methods to do so yeah the my first impression is that the the insurance companies or the medical institutions they may have more incentive to build this right so if we yeah to separate themselves from the actual insurance provider for sure yeah yeah yeah but this is a local and community-based house yeah it is a very good idea you know I really appreciate it thank you mm-hmm the last one on here was the drug pictures a meta model and they talked about numeri the trades meta model data on top of models from data scientists he was thinking of doing this particular for uh for drug pictures I forget this one particularly but he pretty much wanted to create a numeri in particular for data scientists who were working with pharmaceutical data in particular so uh and yeah I originally I think this is valuable because I think of your like for algorithms like numeri sells like AI algorithms in a marketplace for someone else to pick up and utilize I think if you were to do is for pharmaceutical algorithms though the pharmaceutical companies pay hundreds of thousands of dollars to people to create these models and to be part of their team only in a centralized way if someone who's just really good at creating algorithmic models can put this on an open marketplace they can probably benefit from doing this as well so uh it's just more decentralized in the model rather than having an individual company just benefit from it it's a the contributor of the AI model put it in a marketplace see how it's utilized and beneficial to the the the actual pharmaceutical company or therapeutic company and they decide on there so highly interesting on there and then also had a story on botanical water technologies uh blockchain first transparent and secure water trading uh for those that are interested in environmental cases and then uk.gov is moving to fully digital documents for right to work criminal record checks and digital IDs they're one of the first governments to do it fully digital I believe Singapore is there and Estonia is there but now UK is uh looking to migrate into the digital world as well uh we have five minutes left so I want to make room for anyone to talk about comments or things that are educational in the space to them I would like to highlight here in the educational nuggets these are more so for people they're just learning blockchain and want to be able to understand how it's being used uh in industry and likewise uh the siki the siki science show was with Brian Armstrong and Patrick Joyce who has actually spoken with us here at the hyperledger healthcare sig before about research hub his project longevity and why scientific research should be open source highly encouraged take the hour to listen to that uh there's a recording of the european blockchain convention on health data on blockchain that will benefit patients doctors manufacturers with some people from farm ledger consensus health and others uh this news article talking about how passwordless authentication and blockchain can help in cyber security in 2022 especially healthcare they'll take a look at that uh and oh I really liked this pioneer square labs engineering and the engineers hype free observations on web three and what it potential can be uh but plenty of uh beneficial things to learn about and read on your spare time uh but yeah there are any other questions or comments the community would like to share like you know i i'm already three or you know to to uh attend this meeting so after today's meeting uh do you have a couple seconds so that we can stay so that we I can check with you if you get some time or we can uh set up another time uh I have an 11 o'clock meeting but uh you if you email me or the gmail I sent earlier uh we can find time to talk okay great fantastic thank you Mike of course anyone else happy new year Sean thank you all right well I'm going to stop the share then and uh happy new year everyone does anyone have any fun stories or things that