 Let's call this meeting to order. Thank you all for coming. Don't think you all know us, so why don't we just go around and say our names? Jamie Morby. Okay, I'm in, we just go around the chair, obviously. Jordan Keyes. Anne Fulveden. Gabrielle Molina. All right, thank you. So we will now open a hearing for the purpose of, well, I'm gonna read the warning first. I will read that what happened is on May 22nd, 2023, Mark Whitman, who is not here, right? Filed a complaint stating that on the evening of Thursday, May 18th, he was attacked by two large dogs running at large on Kent Hill Road near Kent's Corner. The owner of the two dogs is Elsa Ampin, who resides on Kent Hill Road in Gospel Hollow. Is Elsa in the room? Thank you for coming. Look, I really want, you know, we understand this has been very, very difficult for you and that you've been traumatized by this and we're gonna try, we're gonna try very hard not to make that worse. I also have my teenage dog, so again, I would really appreciate it. Okay, and from the emails I've been getting from people, I would say it sounds to me like as a community, we would like to make this hearing kind and helpful and not cause further distress to both people. Well, Mark isn't here, but he may watch the tape. Both people have been through a lot in the last week. It's been very difficult for both of them and I ask you all, as you speak, to be kind and thoughtful and respectful of how difficult this has been for both people. And I will say that the purpose of this hearing is to hear the complaint under the town ordinance. There are a few copies Barbara put over here if anybody wants to see them. What we're going to do under this ordinance is we're going to read the purpose. It is the purpose of this ordinance to regulate the keeping of dogs and to provide for their leashing, muscling, restraint, impoundment and destruction and they're running at large. We are not going to do all those things, I'm sure, but I just want, I'm just reading this. So as to protect the health and safety of the town and the quiet enjoyment of its residents' homes and properties. Now, just for a moment to address the elephant in the room, we are aware that following this attack, the dog was found dead on one of the dogs on the side of the road and that there have been allegations of wrongful conduct in that death. We are not here to discuss that. That is, is the game working here? Do you file the complaint with the game working? Is that right? Yes, we're investigating that. And the game working is investigating that. We are not going to take evidence on that issue, okay? We are only going to try to determine whether we have a dog in town and we need that who has been threatening people or scaring people and whether we should take some kind of action to ensure as best we can that that doesn't happen again. As I said, we will not take evidence regarding the other issue, okay? So, with that said, we're going to start by asking members of the select board if I'm going to just assume that we've all had what could be called ex parte contact, which means that we've all had conversations with them about this. We've been trying not to talk about it because we are bound to only make our decision based on the evidence that we gather in this hearing. But this is a small time. I'm sure every one of us knows at least one person involved and I'm sure that there may be some of us who haven't but I'm just going to ask at this time that each member of the select board state that they believe that they can hear the evidence and make a decision in an unbiased fashion, all right? So, Jamie, do you believe that you can do that? Yes, I believe I can. Okay, Jordan? Yes, I do. Yes, I can. Yes, I do. I do also. So with that said, let me explain what we're going to do here. Going to start, since Mark isn't here, we're going to start by, Mark has submitted several documents, including a statement and some pictures. We're going to put those into evidence. I'm going to ask somebody, I'm just recovering from bronchitis so I don't want to speak more than I have to. So I'm going to ask somebody here to read these documents so that you can all hear the evidence that Mark has submitted and you may speak to them if you wish to. Then we'll hear from Elsa. You can either speak Elsa or you can just, we'll just read your statement as whatever you're comfortable with. And then we'll give people a chance to ask you questions. Then we're going to allow anybody else who has evidence that can help us in the decision whether or not we have a dog issue and perhaps could help us determine how we might be able to get a chance to testify. Yes. Can I just ask the question about the statements that were sent in, several people who wanted to be here, you know my dogs were not able to be here and have sent in statements. Will those be read? Yes, they will be put into evidence along with any testimony that anybody here wants to offer. So after we've heard from you and Mark, however we hear from you, I'm going to ask, well, Barbara, you have a list here, do we have a lot of people who actually want to give testimony? We'll each have one person, two people have signed up who want to give testimony. Okay. I'm sorry, three. Three, all right. We'll hear from those people. I'm going to put you on the oath before you speak. Thank you. And then if people really want to keep talking after that, we can sort of close the evidentiary portion of the hearing. And we, after that, what you say won't be evidence, it won't be anything that we'll use when we're making a decision. But if we as a community want to discuss this some more, I think we should, we will provide that opportunity. Yes, anybody can at this point. Ask me. Will there be a decision made tonight? Probably not. What we'll do, we'll close the hearing or we'll perhaps decide we need more information in which case we can continue the hearing. We'll go into deliberative session and then we'll issue a decision. Okay, okay. You have a question. Yeah, so I just want to understand what evidence you consider when making your decision under the ordinance about whether this is a nuisance about a problem. And I just want to be clear that the evidence that you're going to listen to in the evidentiary part of the hearing is just about the incident, that the specific incident that Mark Whitman submitted a complaint about and not about other incidents with those animals. Is that correct? Thank you, yes. That is correct. We have no authority over that. That's being heard in a different venue. I don't think you understand what I'm gonna say. That's being investigated. I don't think you understand what I mean. Oh, I'm sorry, previous issues. I beg your pardon, I thought you meant following. So your question is, will we hear about those? Is that evidence? Is that evidence? Yes, that is evidence. Because I didn't sign the evidence side of the... You may do so. Because I didn't have evidence about the incident or the client that I have evidence of prior. Yeah, so let me be clear. That is evidence, could be evidence that could help us to determine if it's a repeated occurrence and if we feel that we need to do something about that. Thank you. So yes, absolutely. Yeah, question? Thank you. Yes, so we've spoken, I'm gonna read a little like this. I spoke with you the other day. I just wanted to face to a name. One of the things that I wanna be clear about is during this process, I had spoken to you this about, I had spoken to you about this earlier, that there have there been any complaints to the town about these dogs previously? There have been, as far as, we've looked at the records, yes, there have been complaints, but as far as we can tell, they have never been officially investigated. Okay, and so then my question is, is it possible to be very clear about what is hearsay and what is an actual, that's interaction, right? Because I think that in a small town like this, we could hearsay all day long, and that is not actually gonna be helpful in this situation. I would like to try, as much as we could, to stitch facts as opposed to my neighbor said, I've heard about that, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I appreciate that. Absolutely, people should report on what they observed and what happened to them, but not talk about what happened here, so I appreciate it. And then also, I just would piggyback on that, so we can make sure that we're following the process per the ordinance that if those were not criminal complaints to the town, would they really count as, because it's very specific. First offense, second offense, third offense. Correct. As far as being, whatever is discussed here, oh, yeah, that happened to me last year. That's not really an official complaint to the town. So, oh, I forgot to, but let me answer that. Under the ordinance, if it was an offense that happened over a year ago, it no longer counts as a first offense. So anything anybody talks about that happened more than a year ago would not create a first offense. And as far as we can tell, looking at the records, there have been no complaints in the last year. So unless somebody can bring forward some evidence that would convince us otherwise, this will be treated as a first offense. Great answer. OK, Barbara wanted to say something. So there was an offense that was brought to the town a year and a half ago, specific to these two dogs. And the town wasn't involved. I have a written report on that. But it was over 12 months ago. Yeah. Can you please clarify how it works when people want to make a comment? Do they stand? Do they state their name? I want to feel like how the procedure works. So that person spoke, I don't know. I would like that very explicit. Thank you. You're right. That does need to happen. Would you state your name, please? My name is Heather Scandale. I'm asking for clarification or what the procedure is when you'd like to make a comment. OK. Certainly when people are testifying, we will ask them to clearly state their name. Rose over here is taking notes. And she's going to need to hear it, all right? Thank you. Yeah, Elsa. This is Elsa, you can. One more question about dog ordinance procedure. Is it ever a procedure that an official complaint is filed and the owner is not involved? Because I have never been contacted by the town about any official complaint. I understand. So we will treat this as a first offense. Thank you. Other questions about procedure? Yes. I think this is a procedural question, although it was partially answered by the, it has to be within a year. But if there's not an animal control officer, the complaint is still made to the town and is official through making it to the town, or the town clerk's office. OK. All right. Cole, yes. I will tell you that we've had an applicant for animal control officer. He has not yet been trained. But I did ask Barbara, after we received the complaint, to sort of act as our animal control officer. We obviously could not be involved in collecting information, but I asked her to just go talk to Elsa for the purpose of collecting information. At the time, I had no idea whether we were sending Barbara into a dangerous situation or not. And I therefore asked Cole to please accompany her, because Cole is very experienced in working with animals. Cole will give you a chance to speak if you wish later. So although we do not have an animal control officer, we have one that might become our animal control officer. We'll talk about that at a different meeting. Other procedural questions? Oh, that was Gabriella asked that. Other procedural questions? OK. With that, we're going to hear from Mark, as best we can, without him here. Mark filed a complaint, as you know. And I would ask, well, I can read these first couple of documents. They're short. Mark's statement in when he filed the complaint on Monday morning following the incident is, I was jogging on Robinson Cemetery Road when I encountered Elsa's two great Pyrenees dogs roaming at large. They both attacked me, the male biting my hand, while the female bit the back of my leg. Medical treatment was necessary. The male dog has been aggressive towards me on several other occasions, chasing, barking, growling. This is the first time he has bitten me. Mark then, and I'm going to ask somebody else to read this. Submitted a more formal statement. And then we also have a report that Barbara made when she, Barbara went also with an interview with Mark. And so Barbara is making a report with more information. So if you read those two into the record, that would be great. And Mark, go ahead. Your first one, Mark Whitman's written statement to the CalIS Select Board, May 24, 2023. To the CalIS Select Board, as I'm unable to attend Thursday night's special meeting, so I wanted to submit a statement of what I think are some important facts to consider. One, on the day that Elsa's dog attacked me, I went straight to her house to tell her. I found her to be at home, and the first thing she said upon opening her door was, are my dogs loose? This means that our dogs have been running loose for at least an hour, yet she was unaware. Two, these dogs have a known history of running at large. They've been seen by us and our neighbors several times in the Abel Hill area. In addition to the day of my attack, I also saw them loose earlier this spring and once last summer. Three, I know there have been other times that these dogs have attacked people. I'm extremely concerned that the proven viciousness of these dogs, coupled with their owner's proven inability to control them, makes for a serious threat to CalIS residents. It's worth noting that my attack occurred on part of the loose, used by many people every day for walking, running, and biking. Thank you, Mark Whitman. Interview with Mark Whitman, Monday, May 22nd, 2023, conducted by Barbara Butler, Assistant Tom Clerk, and Teagan Deichmann-Brown, Tom Clerk. Mark was running south down Robinson Cemetery Road on Thursday evening, May 18th. As he approached Judy Bingham's garage, he saw both dogs on the other side of the road before they spotted him. He knows them to be aggressive and opted to get on the far side of the road, not make eye contact with them and run past. He could tell when they spotted him and knew when they were rushing him from behind. Mark quickly turned around and caught the male dog by the throat, collar, and midair. This is what resulted in the bites on the top of his hand. While he was holding the dog by the throat and midair is when the female dog bit him on the back of the leg. Mark said he was stunned and didn't know what to do. He felt he could overcome one dog but not two. He said he threw the male dog as far as he could, screamed at them as loud as he could and ran. Mark ran down Kent Hill Road to Elsa's house. He said his hand and leg were both bloody and when Elsa opened the door, she said, are my dogs loose? He told Elsa he was going to kill her dogs. Mark admits it was in the heat of the moment not knowing that the dogs, excuse me, that the dogs have been aggressive over the years. He left Elsa's and continued on his run back home. He told Angus of the attack and then drove himself to the ER. I asked Mark if he knew that the male dog is now dead. He seems stunned and said no, he had not heard that. I asked him if he could tell if either of the dogs had previously been attacked by a porcupine and he said no. He said he's seen dogs attacked by a porcupine in the past and it's very easy to see the quills coming out of their mouth head, et cetera. He saw no evidence of porcupine quills. I told Mark that Elsa had filed an animal abuse cruelty complaint with a game warden and that Mark can expect to hear from the game warden in the next few days. Mark will forward photos of his injured hand so we can attach them to the written complaint. I told Mark this leg fork will be upholding a dog attack caring possibly this Thursday evening to be determined. Mark said if he needs to be there, he will try. However, if he would rather not have to confront Elsa and he would rather not be further involved in this incident unless required to be taken, please reply. All of you see any misrepresentations in these notes or please, I don't think you've got parts. Thank you, no, you don't. Okay, Mark. All right, Mark has also submitted an animal bite report from the Department of Health in which it describes the incident and the person I'm trying to see. That's actually, that's out. Oh, this is Jay Copping. So this was our town health officer. Jay Copping investigated and here's what he's written. The female, animal disposition, you say, in what state are the animals right now? The female is confined at home. The male is deceased, unknown cause. He states, victim, I'm having a little trouble writing his emergent, his writing. Victim states to emergency room staff that he was running, two dogs chased him. He sustained bites to both hands, I think, and left leg. ABX prescribed no solution. Action taken by health officer. Attempt to call victim, no answer. Clerk's office, he called them. He ascertained that the both dogs are up to date on their rabies shots and on their licensing. Mark also has submitted the report given by the hospital. 56 year old male presents to the emergency department after being attacked by his neighbor dogs. Multiple bite wounds, mostly to the right hand, although he does have some small bite wounds to the left fifth digit and the posterior left thigh. The rest is not relevant. They offered him a vaccine. He declined to take it and that there's no evidence of rabies. Anybody's welcome to examine these documents but that's the relevant information. He has also submitted some pictures. We can pass these around if people would like to see them. The first two were taken in the hospital. It's a picture of his hand and a picture of his thigh. So that will be part of the record. Then he submitted another photo that was taken a day later which shows the condition of his hand a day later. And then a day after that he took both a photo of his hands and of his thigh. So I'm happy to make these available to you folks if you'd like to examine them. Otherwise we'll just put them in the record. And you guys have all seen these. Does anybody want to see them? Okay. Sure. We cannot ask Mark any questions because he's not here. That's what we would normally do at this point. So now we'll ask him. I have a question or a statement I'd like to say. I'm Nina Brown and I'm a new member of the college. And I'd like to say that this is all hearsay. We have been getting bit by that doc because we're their witnesses. We have no evidence that there were any witnesses. Right. We will be asking. Why are we judging a loose dog? That is, we're going to address that but not right now. Okay. That seems irrelevant because this is the show around the pictures. But we're not giving the opportunity for the failing. We are giving her an opportunity right now. So. Okay, perfect. I just want to make sure that there is justice here. Thank you. On your side. So Elsa, your turn. Can you tell me, we have this document that you submitted. Would you like to speak or would you like her for that we do this? I would like to speak. This is Elsa again speaking. Can I respond to a few things? Absolutely. Statement. Absolutely. I read my statement. Yup. I am concerned by the repeated mentions in that statement of these dogs are known to be aggressive. This has happened before that again is hearsay. I've learned this week that there are a lot of rumors and people who understand that my dogs are large and they have a loud bark and they run up and down inside their fence. But I have learned that a lot of people have made assumptions about them because of that. I don't know what other things he's referencing and without him here to clarify for us. Like I feel that that's unfair hearsay to have in his statement without a built-in question. I'm going to start with the beginning of how I found out about this alleged attack and then I'll give some back information about my dogs. I was at my house on the evening of 18th, Lisa McCarthy who is another neighbor and a house resident who unfortunately couldn't be here if I had a certain statement. Was at my house. She had come down to my house. We were going to take a walk after work with the dogs. We put them in their harnesses and leashes and we started walking up North House Road. The black flies were horrible so we decided walking was not a good idea and we came back to my house. We tried sitting on my porch and again the black flies were horrible so we went inside and we were talking and it was approximately 6 p.m. is the time I've come up with between looking at the texts from Lisa when we planned to walk and then the text message that was the first thing that she sent me after I left to go look for my dogs. I heard footsteps on my porch and I heard banging on my door. My dogs always bark when someone comes into my driveway and so I heard footsteps and knocking at the door realized I hadn't heard the door's barking so that was my first indication that they were out. They generally are outside. They have a large fenced yard. I wouldn't necessarily know that they are out if I'm in the house. They have a contained yard. Unfortunately through some kind of human error they got out that day. So I saw his face and that is yes, the first thing I said was oh no are my dogs out and he held up one hand. I think it was left but I don't know for sure. They did have blood on it and he opened and closed his hand at me and he said if I find them before you do they're dead. And he was gone before I could ask any questions or really even process what happened. He did not give me any indication or I might find them which was upsetting to me because if they were out and potentially hurting people I would want to get them as quickly as possible but he was gone. I ran out and got in my truck. I did not even put shoes on. I know the loops that Mark typically runs because he runs past my house frequently. So I started heading up and was going to drive up Emsley Road. The folks who live in the house on the corner that used to be at least my part of the energy parishes where I was like mowing. I rolled down my window and he said did you see my dogs go by? They said no. So I went the other way in my first loop around thinking that they would have seen them if they went that way. I passed Mark as I was coming back down Emsley. I passed him, still running. He still did not look like he was going to give me any useful information. I stopped back at my house, yelled to my son who was in the shower, told him to get out of the shower and go up in the woods on a snowmobile trail because the vast majority of other times when the dogs have gotten out that is where they go is into the woods behind the house and texted a few friends who lived close by to let them know that I had been told nothing, the dogs were out. And one of them I just said the dogs were out. The other one I said the dogs were out. I marked them as threatening to kill them. So she also came and drove around looking for them. It was my friend who actually found Paddington's body in the ditch on Robinson Cemetery Road and called me. They did as we heard both have percupine fills in their mouth when I found them. And my friend called me at about 7.15 to say that she had found them. So my dogs are both great pair of Emsley's mixes. They have both always been kept up to date on their vaccinations and their town registration. Paddington was an absolutely beloved family pet loved by everyone who knew him. Tracy continues to be a beloved family pet loved by everyone who knows her. Several people who hadn't been to my house before came to my house this evening before this meeting to walk down with me and never and had ever and walked into my house with no problems. Great Pyrenees are a livestock guardian breed and they are known to be very vocal as a way to protect their homes and nicer. I'm sure that all of the members of this life board are familiar with the loud greeting you get from my dogs when you arrive at the town hall. I have never had anybody approach me to complain about their barking or report that my dogs barking from inside the fence caused them to feel afraid or unsafe in any way. This breed is also notoriously known to wander and I've made multiple adjustments since I got Paddington to the way that I keep my dogs to prevent them from wandering. We got Paddington in November of 2020. In the winter, as a young puppy, he did not leave the yard. The first time he ran down out of my yard into the road in front of my house, I was there, I was outside, I ran down and got him and after that, he was always on the tie out attached to the porch or on the leash if he was outside. I then had, I started looking into having a fence built. Most of you probably remember it was very difficult during COVID to get anything done and get supplies, but I did hire someone later that summer to build a small fenced area and then last summer we had a much larger fenced area built. That said, on occasion, the dogs had gotten out as all dogs do. I'd like to describe those incidents because I think they document some evidence that it's unprecedented out of character for my dogs to have attacked someone without a provocation when they were loose. I believe some of these people that I'm going to reference will be speaking or have submitted statements. On one occasion during the spring or summer of 2020, I think before the larger fence was done, they got out and they went to the home of Pam DeAndrea and Jim O'Reardon on Doverbrook Road. Pam contacted me and Pam and Jim fed them treats and entertained them in their yard until my daughter arrived to pick them up because I was so worried. This fall, on October 6th, a friend had dropped her daughter off at my house in the morning early before school because she needed to catch the bus from my house and her daughter as a visitor didn't latch the gate properly, which I did not realize at the time. And so my dogs got out. I discovered this when I got a phone call from Kathleen Landry. I was at work and I then, I actually honestly, I think that some of my kids were home from college that weekend and went up and got them. I may have left it where I don't remember immediately when I got them from Kathleen's house and she later sent me a text message following up. I included a screenshot in my statement that was sent to the board. The text message said, hi, this is Kathleen Landry. I was visited by your sweet, sweet dogs earlier. I felt bad about being pretty on the phone. Not for introducing myself, that's kind of irrelevant. Anyway, I'm glad they got home safe and sound and a bit of money. And I said, oh no, that was fine. I thought it was you, but I'm also at work. And she said, wait, who are you? I said, oh, it's Elsa, amen. And she said, oh, Elsa, how are you? I love your dogs. So that was her experience. She was able to call me because they have tags that have their phone number on them. So she was able to approach the dogs, read their names and her phone numbers off their tags and call me. Just before Christmas this winter, you all may remember we had some very bad wind and lots of trees came down and a tree came down on the up section of our fence in the section behind the house, which is a wooded area and not, which is difficult to see from inside the house and not so moving walk in the winter. So we didn't realize right away that the tree had come down and the dogs got out a few times related to that. First, because I did not know the fence, that the tree was down. Second, because I still didn't know. I thought that I had found where they got out. That's still a little puzzle that I fixed when I thought it was and they got out the second day. Then I found the broken part of the fence. I made a temporary repair, which didn't hold. So they got out three times related to that. Each of those times they were found by people who reported them to be friendly and agreeable. Each of these people was able to easily approach the dogs, read their names and my phone numbers off their tags and contact me to let me know where they're finding my dogs. They were found once by Nell Emlin, who lives up on the top of Kent Hill Road. She contacted me, fed the dogs treats while I called my son. I was again at work and asked him to go get them up. He was already out driving around for them at the time. There was a slight delay because, as you all know, we don't have good self-service in Calis, but as soon as he got the message from where they were, he went up to collect them. They had already wandered down Nell's driveway, but they were in Kent Hill Road and he brought them home. They were found once on Apple Hill Road by Alexandra Whitelock, who again contacted me after reading their number. My daughter went and picked them up and she got there, Alex commented on how sweet they were. And they were found once on the snowmobile trail by a man who I did not know. He called me with a blip of reception and then followed up with a text exchange. Months later, this man saw me walking, stopped in the road to say hi, asked how the dogs were doing and tell me again how beautiful he thought they were. The text messages from him, I've included, I don't know that I need to read them, they're just, hey, they are now headed on Robinson Cemetery Road, headed towards County Road, sent me a photo of them in the road. I said my son's headed that way to look for them. He went later on that day and texted me and said, I hope we found them, what kind of dogs are they? And I said, we got them. Thank you so much. They're both pretty caring. He gave a thumbs up, text, response. So after those three days, we made a permanent repair of the fence and the dogs have not gotten loose again since that time. Based on the information above, I would respectfully ask the flipboard to consider the possibility that my dogs were provoked in some way when they encountered Mark Whitman. I think we also have to consider either Mark said he didn't see working microwaves based on what he described, I'm not sure that he would have noticed that they're white, long-haired dogs. It wasn't immediately obvious to me when I found my living dog running in the road that she had working microwaves. It wasn't until I got her into the truck so it is possible that they were in pain and agitated from the working microwaves. I do not know, but I have to consider that there may have been some other event that caused them to behave in this way that is completely out of character for them. I would also like to take a minute to ask the select board to, when you begin to allow other people to make testimony, please remember that last spring and summer, there were two great Pyrenees living at the farm at the end of Pecan Brook Road. I don't know the number, it was a newly built place with big gate and they have big greenhouses, several of them were put in. They had two great Pyrenees that were frequently loose. It was in French porch form on a regular basis. Every time it was in French porch form, I got multiple calls and messages from friends. My mother once saw those dogs running and called me and said, I think I saw your dogs and they were not my dogs. So I would ask that if people are testifying about my dogs, they are able to confirm that they know that those dogs were my dogs either because I was with them, because they were inside my fence of my property or because they confirmed their identity on their tags. I'm very concerned. I've never met those other dogs. I've never seen them, but I'm very concerned that they are running loose and whatever they may have done while they were out has been falsely attributed to my dogs in this town. Thank you, Kelsa. Do you mind if we ask questions? No. Before we do, would somebody, this is again Barbara and Cole. This is their report of their interview. And again, Barbara, you don't want to read it. Cole, would you like to read it? It makes a difference to me. Okay, thank you. Do you want to read it, Cole? No, thank you. Me too, Cole. Okay, this was interview was done on Sunday, May 21st. Barbara, can everybody hear Barbara? Your house is close toward the audience. Yeah, that's what I was thinking. Could you please, maybe if you came up here, Barbara, do you mind if the space is okay? Can everybody hear me now? Yeah. Okay, great. Okay, this interview was done on Sunday, May 21st. It was conducted between myself and I'm going to call them Acting Animal Control Officer, Cole Bliss. Elsa apparently has a series of, and this was simply my notes taken from that interview with Elsa. Elsa apparently has a series of gains that she uses to define where she has the two dogs secured within her property. She told us that Lisa McCarthy was at her house Thursday evening and they tried sitting out on the porch to visit. The black flies were so bad, they had to go inside. The next thing she knew, she heard someone's footsteps on the front porch and that it was Mark Whitman who was very agitated. She said Mark's hand was bloody and that he told her that her dog said just a tactile and he said, quote, I'm sick of this. If I find your dogs before you do, they're dead. She said Mark went off and she realized that when she and Lisa had gone inside she must not have gated at the dogs inside the proper fencing. She said she left immediately to look for her dogs first heading down North Calis Road to Duba Work Road. She then circled over Apple Hill and passed Mark still running on Elmsley. She never saw the dogs. She went back home to get her 19 year old son Silas out of the shower to help her look for the dogs. She called a couple of friends to also help head out looking for them. Also was on Jack Hill Road when she got a call from Erica Gongov who had found Paddington male dead in a ditch on Robinson Cemetery Road by the Fitch Farm. As Elsa was driving up Kent Hill Road she saw her female dog Trixie running down Kent Hill Road. She stopped to put Trixie in her car and realized Trixie had porcupine quills in her mouth. When she got to Fitch Farm and loaded dead Paddington into the car she realized he also had porcupine quills in his mouth. I asked Elsa where Paddington is now and she said she took him to Onion River Animal Hospital to be cremated. I also asked Elsa, did Lisa or Silas or anyone else witness Mark and her front door threatening to kill the dogs? And she said no, Lisa was in the bathroom and Silas was in the shower. I then asked Elsa how did she determine that the dog had been beaten to death versus being hit by a car and she said because there was no blood. Elsa called the game warden on Friday morning to file a complaint for animal abuse by Mark Whitman. The game warden will interview Mark on Tuesday. After Elsa left, Cole noted that at times Elsa said the dogs never get out and yet she enumerated four different times when they've gotten out and people have helped to bring them back home. And then I sent this via email to the select board and I included Cole and I asked Cole to reply all if there were any misrepresentations in these notes or to please provide any corrections or further information he felt was missing and he said that he agreed with the notes. Thank you. Cole, do you wish to add anything to that at this point since you were present? No. I don't think so. Okay. All right, select board. Did anybody like to ask questions of Elsa? I've got one. Paddington was about two then. Two and a half. Two and a half and how old is Tixie? She's three. How far is it from your house to Jevoreven's house? Because of all the ones he said, that's like the furthest in my mind. So we live right at the corner of Apple Hill and Duke River. So I mean, I think it's also hard to know if you travel by road, it's probably two miles. Yeah. And terrible with distance. I love that part. You're going through the woods and the dog. I would suspect that they got there by going through the woods. Yeah. And that was over a year ago that they were there. All right, I have a question. Could you describe the fencing that you have for the dog, including how the door works, just so we have an understanding of what you're doing now to keep the dog contained? Yeah, I can try to describe it. You're also welcome to come see it. You can see that that thing along the road. Sure. Step that in. It's a little over its four foot wire sheet fencing and then there's sort of a wooden lip above that. Cedar fence post, it's most of the way that puts along the front. There's different pieces. There's some picket up in front of my driveway. There's also some that's taller. So the first gate, when you come in from the driveway, latches, it swings into the yard and it actually had a sliding latch, but over the window, the ground shifted. So it now has a hook and eye latch that it closed. And then that sort of leads into the smaller section of the yard. And then as you come up the steps to my porch, there's a gate at the entrance of the porch that swings in and closes with one of those drop gate latches. I'm trying to think of each one. And then off the front of my porch, there's a double gate that one swings in and one swings out. And that was deliberate to make it harder to push so that the hinges aren't working against each other if you try to push against it. That has a sliding latch, so please don't. But me, if I get the property wrong, there's multiple kinds of latches. There's also a gate that we never use down on the front on the side towards the river. I never use that. I can't help my head out, but I'll never use it. My son jumps the fence to put his full bus in the morning. And then also facing the driveway on the side closer. So there's fencing, so they're dividing where you walk in. There's a section of fence, and then on the other side, which is the bigger yard than my flower gardens are, there is a double gate that has a sliding latch. We don't usually use that gate, that's if we need to open both gates to like drive something through to get to the top shed. So how many gates would the dog have to go through to get out? Is it just one? Or is it, sounds like a series? There is a series, but what happened that evening is that Lisa and I were walking through and we went up on the porch and the dogs were annoying me. They want another tray of great Pyrenees, is that they will paw at you incessantly because they want to be petted and they were annoying me and I had pushed them out in front of the porch and just closed that gate. And I wish that I could say what happened, whether I didn't close it all the way, I don't. And I didn't stop to look at the gates before I went to go look at them as well. So I think what I'm hearing is if you did not close the gate properly, accidentally, I understand there would have been no other hindrance to the dogs getting out. Right, typically there always is and I will regret until the day that I died and I didn't close either of those other two gates off the porch. I was just off kilter, tried to take a walk, tried to sit on the porch and somewhere in there that got lost and I hugely and enormously regret it. Now you said the fence is four feet high. In fact, you just said that you're safe and jump over them. Yes. Is there any reason to believe the dogs cannot jump over them? Yes. If nobody- It's a size, sorry. Everybody asks that question. If you saw my dogs, they don't want to get on the couch. Well, that would help. It's really ridiculous because they are very large dogs. They do stand up on it, but they stand up when we're sitting on the couch and they want to sit with us, they put their front feet and they move over us and you have to really encourage them. We have a running joke that she's like, they need help, you might need to boost his butt. They've never shown any attempt to try to jump over the gate. To your knowledge, then that's never happened. Okay. That has never happened. Other questions from the select board? Is there, does anybody have clarifying questions for Elsa, anybody else in the room? Yes, would you state your name, please? Caroline Morton, I might have missed this because I'm in the back row, but did you, did you talk about what was the animal hospital determined was the cause of death of the dog? Did I miss that? I feel that that is part of what we said we were not discussing. That's right, Caroline. I think you were here in the beginning that's just not, that's not an issue we're gonna address tonight. We are only looking at whether there might be some kind of danger or threat to callous residents under the circumstances. I also feel a little uncomfortable that I am answering questions from everybody when Mark is in the year to ask, to ask questions. But you are getting a better chance to give us evidence that Mark is so you can take comfort from that. Okay, yes. I'm Heather Scandale. I have multiple questions for Mark and I don't know how to proceed with the slot board with that and I'm wondering what that process is and I would like to have an explanation of when Elsa is having the audience to say what questions you have for her and the other person who filed a complaint. I have many questions for that individual. With what was stated, in addition to other anecdotal things that I have seen on Facebook with that individual being present at social functions with being fine with what the medical report states compared to what I have seen. So I would like to know how the slot board is going to proceed with that and how they're going to answer with that. I have a huge moral conflict right now with how this is being run, with Elsa being here present compared to the person that filed a complaint and we're not able to have that equal balance of questioning. So I feel like what is your procedure and how is that shut down? How do you perform that when the person, right, I would like to hear that answer. Yeah, we can only make a decision based on the evidence we hear in the hearing. If we feel we have insufficient evidence and we understand that you may have questions from our, we do too, but we can't ask them either. However, at least Elsa can answer our concerns. So I would say you're in a better position to give us the evidence. In any case, if we feel that we do not have enough evidence to make a hearing, I'm sorry, to make a decision at the end of the hearing, we may continue the hearing and ask Mark to come in another time. But we're doing the best we can under the circumstances, okay? Do we need to talk about this more? I would like to get on to other witnesses. All right, let's start with Maria. So again, my name is Maria Olegos. I feel like I have some expertise in this experience because I was the Palace Town Health Officer from 2015 to 2015. I have a lot of experience about how the town handles dog bites. I work very closely with Wilson Hughes as the Animal Control Officer during that period of time. I have seen many dog bites in this community. We know that loose dogs are not an anomaly in Palace. We know that dog bites are not an anomaly in Palace. I have already expressed my concerns about why this is being handled in such a formal manner when normally dog bites and loose dogs are handled informally. I understand that you don't have the people in place to have handled that the way Wilson and I had in the past because you don't have the staffing. But I also wanna say that per the dog ordinance in terms of this being a first offense for both dogs, one of the dogs is dead. And the first offense punishment consequence for the other dog trixie would be if you were to be found guilty of being a nuisance would be $50 and we would be done here. So I feel like putting this family through this again when they have already lost a dog and the state will decide what the deal is with how that dog died. But I feel like we could probably move this along and not make it such a super heavy formal meeting when what we're really talking about is $50 and a little piece of paper in Elsa's file. I think this is really upsetting for a lot of people. I can tell you that I haven't slept in a week and it's not even my goal. So I kind of feel like maybe this has been beat to death as a really, really poor choice of words. And maybe we could finish this up and let some people find some peace. Yes, hi, I have two parts. I'm gonna start with the part that if you could say your name. I'm sorry, I'm Deena Brown. I live in the North Palace Village. My two parts, I'm gonna first start with, I have a family. I have three beautiful, propitious, vibration children. They're very active, very busy. And we have seen these dogs on many occasions being walked by Elsa and they have been friendly. Let me just stop you because in a minute we are. I have to go soon so I wanna make this present that they are family dogs and they have never showed any aggression towards my children who are extremely handsy and active. And I think my second part, I feel with my bones that you talk about the danger and the nuisance of something, you should really think of someone who makes a threat to a family who has a dog that I'm willing to kill them if I find the first. That is what you should consider a danger and a nuisance to this palace community. I have to go, I need to make sure my statement was heard because that is more of a concern for me with children and my senior citizen mother. Yeah, okay. All right, that's really not a problem. Thank you very much. Thank you, thank you. I'm gonna continue right now with just clarifying questions for Elsa if there's something that you did not understand about what she said and you would like to ask a question or you feel that more information from Elsa would be helpful. Could you now ask Elsa those questions? We are going to give everybody a chance to, everybody who wants to attend to speak. I'm not. Okay, go ahead. I don't have a question, Pam DeAndrea. I don't have a question for Elsa but I do have a clarifying question from Mark's testimony. Can I ask that? Even though Mark's not here from your Reddit because I heard in the testimony that he grabbed Paddington by the neck at one point and I just, if I can just hear that again and also have the select board think about that in terms of being bitten by a dog, if a human goes to a dog's neck and grabs it, then that is gonna provoke a dog. So I just wanna hear that part in the testimony again if you can read that one more time. And do you have the air-winter roast? And just read that one more time and also just run out from the dog behavior. If, so keep in mind also, then this is not part of my testimony or anything, but dog behavior, if you see, if my, I have three dogs and if someone is in a fight with one of my dogs, the other dog will bite. So just keep that in mind that that other dog will protect. Okay. I think I can stress her profession. I was the one who read that statement. I wrote it. The dog lunged at him. And so he, it was coming at him mid-air and that's where he grabbed it. He wasn't just running, he actually was jumping. He was jumping and Cole was here. So is that your understanding from what Mark told us when you were doing the marking? Oh, I'm sorry, it was Teagan. It was Teagan. I just could say in the statement, exactly. Okay. So it said, Mark quickly turned around and caught the male dog by the throat in mid-air. In mid-air. I'm sorry, can you read the sentence before Mark quickly turned around because I think what my dogs were doing before he turned around. The part that he could tell when they spotted him or that he doesn't seem to be aggressive or. If you want to start with what he thought you could tell when he spotted them. Okay, I'll just start at the top. As he approached Judy Brigham's garage, he saw both dogs on the other side of the road before they spotted him. He knows them to be aggressive and opted to get on the far side of the road, not make eye contact with them and run past. He could tell when they spotted him and knew when they were rushing him from behind. Mark quickly turned around and caught the male dog by the throat, collar and mid-air. This is what resulted in the bites on the top of his hand while he was holding the dog by the throat and mid-air is when the female dog bit him in the back of the leg. That's clarity on that. And I think knowing what, just knowing dog behavior and what precipitated human grabbing the dog's behavior which is like what needs to have that information. Sorry, I forgot your name. Heather, Heather, Heather. Can you, I would like clarification of what Elsa, her background is and her qualifications because there was one moment in what the notes stated when Mark came up to the door. It was stated that he was somewhat escalated. So I'm just curious. I would like Elsa to state her qualifications and what her background is. Sure. I have a doctorate degree. I have a doctorate nursing practice. I work as a nurse practitioner. I work at ExpressCare, which is a walk-in clinic. I frequently treat people with dog bites. I also have extensive social work background working with people with trauma. Currently the school health director for Orleans Southwest Supervisor at Union. When Mark came to my house, I put this in my statement because even in that moment, once anyone else is wrong as a nurse or any kind of medical professional, once you're trained to think that way, I look, I cannot not look at people and make instant medical assessments. That's how we're trained to think. So it was notable to me that, yes, there was blood on his hand, but he opened and closed his hand when he held it up, which showed me that he had full range of motion, which was a good sign. He did gesture to his shorts and I saw that they were ripped. I did not see any blood or any injury to the skin in that area. And I also, as I noted, saw him continuing to run home. I mentioned that the neighbors next door were outside doing yard work, so that was all indications to me that he was not seriously injured because he did not stop where there were other neighbors who could have let him use a phone. I understand he wouldn't have wanted to ask me for help in that moment, but there were neighbors right next door who he could have asked for a ride home. He could have asked to use the phone to call his wife. Instead he felt well enough to continue running a mile and a half straight up hill back to his house, which I can't do on a good day. So that's, I think, is what you were asking. I was. Thank you. And I, again, without being able to have Mark answer this question, I would like to ask the clarifying question. He states clearly that he saw the dogs before him and he was near somebody's garage. I am not making excuses for any dog bite, that said, as someone who used to run regularly, used to run between five and 10 miles a day in this town, I've been bitten by a dog while running. I'm very cautious when I see loose dogs. I stop and I go the other way. If I have the opportunity that the dogs have not seen me or to go into a garage of somebody that I know, especially if they're dogs that I am afraid of and I believe things, which he clearly stated he believed they've been aggressive in the past, he continued to run past them. Feeling afraid, feeling that he thought that they were a threat to him. I think anyone who runs and walks and bites in this town has incidents that they can talk about, about being chased by dogs. And again, I'm not saying this is good, but I'm saying there are choices we make as pedestrians and bikers in this town where there are loose dogs to avoid a problem and then we call our neighbors afterwards. Thank you. The way in the back there. Yeah, the dog go kids were like, quiet. So you said you thought you were two and three and a half years old, is that right? And that's been out, so you gave a story about how many times have been loose in the town. Can you remember how many times there was? In my, I talked about once over the spring or summer, which I don't recall. Just a total number. I'm trying to answer your question. That once over the spring or summer, once in October, when they went to Captain Landry's and then there were three events related to the broken fence. So that's a total of five? Yes. So the people that reported to the dogs were any youth and brothers? Was anybody running? I don't remember. One of them was snowmobiling. They wouldn't, nobody else was running. I don't know. Okay. Somebody else here? Yeah, you here. Senator Gallagher. I just would like to make a comment about the tone of this meeting and the people who are not here who are allegedly attacked by a dog should not be demonized in defense of the dogs. Elsa and her family are not the only people traumatized here. It's really traumatic to be attacked by two big dogs. And I would appreciate if the same respect that people are asking for for Elsa could be offered to the victim of the attack. Thank you for that, Sarah. Other questions now for Elsa? All right, thank you, Elsa. I know that wasn't easy. At this time, we're going to open it up to other people who have evidence to testify. I have received, we have received several letters. We've received one from Redalalfa, one from, we actually received two from Erica Gongliff, but one of them relates only to the second incident and not to the first. So I'm not going to take that into evidence. We've got one from CeCe, Nell Amlin, Elizabeth Brown, and Lisa McCarty and Chantel Ikis. So what I'd like to do is ask somebody else, and maybe we could sort of take turns reading these into the records so everybody can hear what these people are saying. Then I'm going to give you folks a chance to offer evidence, all right? So may I ask either a volunteer to read them all or at least a start? Thank you. I'm excited to read all the two in front. All right, this one is from Redalalfa. No. Oh, no. Heather, stand up like that. Oh, sorry. Can you state the relationship, please, of the person that wrote the letter to the incident? No, I can't. Because that's the wife of Mark. Okay. So I feel like that is like, I know, but we aren't clarifying who's friends with who and it's a small community. So, to the callous life board, I just wanted to share some of my experience relating to the issue of Elsa, Apen's dogs being loosed and their recent attack on my husband. She saved it. I've heard from neighbors that these dogs have often been seen running loose on Apple Hill and also know the dogs have been aggressive towards runners and bikers, including towards Mark on previous occasions. I also saw them once last summer going past my house following a scent trail where they continued over the bank below my house and disappeared into the woods. Although not at large in this situation, when I've walked past Elsa's house and our dogs are outside, they come running down and stand with their front paws on the top rail of the fence enclosure and their bodies well above the height of the fence barking until I'm out of sight. I realize that although unpleasant, this isn't necessarily a problem and I may be wrong, but it makes me really nervous seeing how easily it looks like they could escape the fence. I don't have confidence that it's adequate to contain them and have been avoiding walking past there because of that. After what happened to Mark and hearing about a previous attack on the cyclist, my main concern is that these dogs are somehow getting loosed and can be aggressive. I feel horrified by these attacks, which have been very traumatizing to Mark and all involved and in thinking about how much worse things could have been, it was just incredibly lucky it didn't happen to someone who wasn't as strong as Mark to a smaller person or a kid on a bike, for instance, and it was lucky it wasn't even worse for Mark. Most of my life, I've been walking the roads and trails around here and have learned where dogs are and their behaviors. And as long as they are on their own property or otherwise under control, that's a known quantity I can work around if needed. When dogs are getting loosed, that isn't an option and becomes a matter of public safety. I really feel for all that trauma and hardship in this situation for everyone and sincerely hope something can be done in the best way possible to adequately prevent further harm or nuisance. Thank you so much for your attention to this matter. And that is the end of that. Is this the one you took out the one from Erika? That one? I wrote for you. Not really. Okay, so let's take that out, that's the one. So this is the one from Erika Thongla that is pertaining to be an incident. Hello all, I've been a resident of Calis for 14 years and years ago had my own issues with our dog getting out and barking aggressively at people. We also had to come to a select board meeting and afterwards we sent him to some training classes at the shelter and worked really hard to keep him contained but with kids in the house sometimes he got out. We never had another incident and as he aged, he mellowed, he is no longer with us. I know Elsa to be a responsible dog owner. When her first pens seemed inadequate, she had another belt. She has always been clear with visitors how to greet her dogs and helps make the transition. Paddington and Trixie are large and loud and this can be taken as being scary but they have big hearts. Elsa and I often walk with her dogs. I hold one and she holds the other both on leashes and I have never had a problem helping them to be calm and curious as people pass us runners, walkers, bikers, strollers. My own children, aged 13 and 16 have always been reluctant to be around big dogs yet we often hung out with Elsa at her home and both kids enjoyed feeding them treats and getting to know them. My 16 year old daughter was looking forward to dog sitting this summer and was talking about her plans to become Paddington's best friend in the world. We even put down a rec seat and we're looking for the dogs in this incident confident that we could load them into our car safely and bring them home. While I understand sometimes issues like this arise in neighbors we come adversaries, it is my hope that this life forward will act as it always has, giving options, retraining and understanding that these things happen from time to time but there are ways to repair the relationship. As a school guidance counselor, I spend a lot of time working with children and adults about how to repair relationships, compromise and take responsibility. In this particular situation, the dog in question Paddington is no longer alive and that feels like more than resolution and not especially given that the case was not natural. Unfortunately, I'm unable to come to the meeting in person today but offered to answer questions at any time. This one is from Nell Emlin. I have another Thursday meeting so I'm unable to attend this special slide where we're meeting to discuss the incident involving Mark Whitman and Elsa Inkins dogs. I did however want to share an experience we had with Elsa's dogs. Like many dogs at near their own home territory, Paddington and Trixie Barkman, some of them goes by and can sound scary but on the one occasion when they wandered over to our home we found them to be very friendly both with us and with our own dog. I have been bitten by dogs on several occasions and of course that can be a very scary, can be a scary experience for anyone. I don't know the circumstances of the incident with Mark but I hope it can be settled in a careful and thoughtful manner. Sincerely, Cornelia. And this is from Elizabeth Brown who was here. Is this Dina who was here earlier? For my clarification. No, let Elizabeth and Dina or not. Oh, the same person. Okay, so please read aloud. You have been given the task to determine what truly happened on Thursday of last week and how the situation should be handled. It is my sincere hope that you will listen to all the evidence maker ruling that is based on truth and is fair and just. My family and I have been callous for most four years now. We love the area of the people and seeing folks enjoy the beautiful trails with their beloved pets. While we have not met Ingrid or her family, I think she meant Elta personally, we have seen her and her dogs walking the neighborhood always unleashed and I've seen them in their enclosed fence area when passing Town Hall. Our family has truly enjoyed seeing the beautiful white pups walking along happily and playing in their yard. When we have seen them out and about, we have seen folks pass by the dogs and have never seen them exhibit aggression or unsafe behavior towards others. When we found out about the accusations of what occurred, we were truly taken aback, given that our experience, the dogs were always quite friendly and did not exhibit aggression at all. We are hopeful that witnesses will come forward and tell this story because during this hearing, the whole story is not being told. While it is very difficult to believe that the dogs would have attacked someone, any dog when provoked will try to protect itself. These take time to listen and really understand the truth about what happened that day. As dog owners ourselves, we hope that this situation is handled without bias and with great care because often our pets feel like family. The family in this case has been greatly impacted by these accusations and have had their lives forever changed. Your ruling will either help to provide closure or cause even greater distress. Thank you for taking the time to read this statement. And this is from Lisa McCarthy. Unfortunately, I am unable to attend this special meeting tonight as principal of Lakeview Elementary School in Greensboro. I have a prior commitment at the school. I am available for call about questions or to a parent person at a later date. I have known Elsa A. Penne for many years and since the time she got Paddington and then Trixie, her great Pyrenees dogs. During the time she has had these dogs, she has been a responsible dog owner. This is evidenced by her bringing Paddington to Puppy Obedient School to ensure was socialized during the COVID pandemic. Intentionally introducing them to other dogs for socialization, my dog, Emery and Malacos dogs. Introducing them to new people intentionally, building large fence around her property and also using a large run to make sure they were not neighbor property when unattended. Her dogs have a loud bark, which is typical for their breed. When I drive to Elsa's house at least weekly, they bark loudly at the fence similar to the way my Labrador brooder also greets visitors. They have never left the fence area when I have been present. When Elsa or one of her children comes outside and calls them, they are redirected. As mentioned above, I've been at Elsa's house at least weekly since she obtained the dogs and I've never experienced them being aggressive towards me or others. Additionally, I take walks four to five miles in length with Elsa on a nearly weekly basis with both dogs. Elsa has had them on a leash and harness during these walks when there is somebody passing by. She has them set and gives them treats to reward for behavior. A technique she learned in her dog obedience class, she has been consistent in this approach. I have not seen her dogs be aggressive towards other people or animals during our walks over the past few years. On Thursday, May 18th, I was at Elsa in Penn's house. We were sitting in her living room talking. I excused myself to use the restroom in the upstairs of the house. When I was in the restroom, I heard two knocks, but it didn't initially realize there was someone at the door. It was approximately 6 p.m. When I left the restroom and was on the stairs, Elsa was in the doorway of the house. She looked upset and said, Paddy to just get Mark Whitman, and he said he's when to kill my dogs if he finds them first. She ran out of the house. I waited in the house because I thought she had ran to the road to get the dogs. A few minutes later, I noticed her truck was gone. I drove to Maple Corner store to buy a pizza. I saw Maria on my lay post and shared with her what had just happened. I drove back down by Elsa's house to look for her and then returned to my house. From my house, I texted her at 6 p.m. She said she was still looking for them. At 7.44, she texted me that Paddington was dead. Trixie had a mouth full of porcupine quills and asked for a number for the vet in Littleton, New Hampshire. I gave her the number. Elsa told me she couldn't talk into text Erica. Erica Gongoloff reported that Elsa had shared that one of the dogs get Mark Whitman. She found Paddington dead on the side of the road above the song well on Robinson Cemetery Road. She told me he had clearly been hit. She said initially she wasn't going to help her look because Milo had a hard week and then it occurred to her that if Mark had said that, that he might actually do it. When I spoke to Elsa the next day, she told me that Mark Whitman came to the front door knocked. She was surprised because her dog's usually barked. She reported he first appeared out blood on his hand. He screamed at her, your dog bit me. If I find them first, I'll kill them. When she left the house, she asked neighbors. 1567, Kent Hill, which is that house up there. If they had seen her dogs and they had not, she drove up Kent Hill and then turned around. She drove up Emsley Road in passing, Mark Whitman running. Oh my gosh, tiny spirit. This is from Chantel S. House, excuse me, I have Beijing Eyeballs. Hello, Farrelay. I'm currently out of the country and saw your FTF post about Elsa's dogs. I did between Elsa and her ex-husband on Peking Brook Road. I cannot walk in either direction safely because Mike's dog attacked my dog while I was walking. Probably would have killed him if Mike hadn't heard me screaming and ran out to help. Walking towards Elsa's house, I have experienced her dog on at least trying to attack mine when I walked past twice now. If it ever got loose, I think it would kill my dog. But Mike and Elsa's dogs are together. I think they are much worse. His is the white period and hers is the big husky type dog. After I finish it, I would very much like this taken care of but I will not be able to speak at the hearing. It is not, it is terrible to not feel safe walking on my own road in either direction from my home. If there's anything I can do from afar, please let me know. I'm assuming you want to rebuke that testimony. I would just like to say who you are. I'm Belle Bailey, I'm Arabella. I live at my dad's house. Pottington does not live there, neither does Trixie. We have three dogs. One is very old and does wander in the road, has been hit by Sean Tell's husband before on the back road and he's doing okay, but has backland problems. But Pottington does not live there. He was there for a few months I believe in the very beginning when he was a puppy and he's no longer there. So you're saying this may be one of the instances when somebody confused the two dogs. All right, thank you. I mean, you're gonna have to trust us to a certain extent to sort through this information. Okay, we understand hearsay is not admissible. And please trust that we are performing a role that we've been elected to perform with confidence because you guys have all elected us. So please trust and respect that we can filter through this for both parties. Thank you. Thanks. All right, that is all the written testimony that has been submitted. I think that came in after Barbara proved it. Yes, I hadn't seen this one. Would you like to read it into the record? Sure. Okay. Any little drawing. This is from Tracy Sudhalter. Good afternoon, Barbara. I'm Tracy Sudhalter, Mark Whitman's neighbor up on Apple Hill Road. I was planning to try and make the meeting this evening but running on little sleep from a toddler up last night. I just wanted to share the following since I saw Mark on his way up the hill last week after he got attacked. My daughter and I were pulling into our driveway after her dance recital practice last week and saw Mark's clothes ripped up and him bleeding. He warned me just to be careful because he has seen me interacting with those dogs on the hill over the last year. They have been up and down our road a few times, two or three in the last year and obviously I don't want them to get hit by a car or be lost. I tried once to coax them in my car so I could check collars and get them home as I would hope someone would do for me and someone did last year when our dog Belle got out and took herself on an unauthorized overnight adventure. Just wanted to share that it does seem a bit like they get out more frequently than not and I've never seen the owners post on Front Porch Forum that they are lost. When our sweet pup took herself for an adventure last summer I posted immediately to Front Porch Forum and was driving around all night calling and informing every neighbor to please call if they saw her. No one has ever done that for these pups. Not sure if this is helpful but wanted to share. All right, I have a list of one, two, three, four, five people who've signed up to testify and I realize I forgot to put folks under oath but please all tell the truth and nothing but the truth is that we do this, okay? So I'm gonna call Doug Guy first and if you're comfortable sitting there, that's fine. If you'd rather come up, that's okay too. Okay. I'm Doug Guy. About 18 months I was on my three-wheel lucky bike going shopping in Maple Corners. Up at the top of North Callas Road above Bill Davis's residence, I was coming down south. I saw Elsa walking the dogs on the right as I always do and going to the far left as far as I could go as I came parallel to her, the dog attacked. Washed on to my spot. She pulled hard on the rope and that's holding me around and threw me into the ditch for the bike on top of me. The dog continued to chew on me a bit. She said she couldn't help me because she had to try and get the dog off and she let go of the dog first and more. At that point, a couple of young women came over to count in a car and they stopped to help me. I never saw Elsa again. She took off with the dog, never in the attempt to contact me. A couple of days later, I brought the pants, the torn pieces down to the town perks, showed it to the town clerk and the town health officer. He did the check on the rabies vaccines. I was personally attacked and I had a witness. Elsa. So, I'm just being like, I'm going to be treated hostily here. Doug, when did you say this occurred? It would be mid-November. Of 2022? No. November 20, 2021. 21, all right. Elsa, would you like an opportunity to respond to that? Do you remember the incident? I do remember. I do not remember being in November, but I won't argue about that. I know that I only had Paddington at that time and he was a puppy, so I also would remind everyone that anything we think about Paddington, he is already dead. That location was pretty similar in my memory to what dog chair I was headed. Terrible in this house, I was headed this way on North Alice Road on that slight rise just before Andy and Kerry Felice's house. I did not know that Doug was behind me. If any of you have been out walking and had an electric bike behind you, they are very difficult to hear. So I did not know he was there until he was pulling up around me as he described. I yelled to say, he alerted him that we were there and I didn't know he had seen the dog because he was on a leash in front of me. He did not appear to hear me yelling. I don't know if he couldn't hear me because of the bike, I don't know. He cut his bike directly in front of me and actually crashed into the dog with his bike which caused the dog to bite him and the bike to fall. As I was yanking the dog back again, we were on that hill and I had a torn meniscus at the time so I fell backwards again so I was a little slower and being able to help. There was a car that came as he described to young women who got out and were helping him. I then had retrieved my dog and I was standing back. He was still upset. I spoke to the women and I said I don't think that I can do anything to help. By staying here I think the best thing is for me to take my dog away from this situation so that you can help him and they agreed with me and said yes, we'll help him from here and as I left they were helping him to get into his car, I believe. I was never contacted about any notification to the town about that event. I'm not sure why I wouldn't have been if that was reported as described. I can't speak to that but this is the first time that that was reported and I can also say that I have since seen Doug riding his bike past my house many times. He has also never attempted to communicate to me. When that happened I had never met him before and my life didn't know who he was, didn't have any way to contact him. Doug, do you want to respond to that? First I did not cut with my bike in front. It's on my free bike. When the dog chomped on me I tried to accelerate straight ahead on the left side of the road. I also pulled on the road and that put me like a toy on the end of the string and that yanked me around in front and off that side of the road. So I did not cut in front of the dog. I was pulled off that side of the road. Questions from the select board. For either Doug, we're gonna start with the select board. Do you have a question Barbara or something to add? Not a question but I can say that we, there are official reports from the health officer and the animal control officer on that event and they both visited Elstop and we have those reports in the town office. Can I see those reports? Yes, I don't have them here but they were the, and explained to me that anything prior to a year was not considered an offense so I didn't bring copies but we do have those in the town office. I truly have no idea what you're talking about and I very much appreciate it. Okay, well let's, the select board asks questions and then we'll open it up to the rest of you. Does anybody have any questions of either Elsa or Doug about this incident? Do I hear one coming from you Jordan? No, just a reminder that these questions are relevant to the testimony that's being given and that they should be clarifying questions to the individuals who are giving testimony. So as we work through the rest of this list, these people are giving testimony and these should be clarifying questions, not statements. All right, hearing none from the select board, Maria. My clarifying question was this incident was older than 12 months and the dog in question has already been, is already dead. So I guess I don't really have a question but it doesn't have anything to do with Trixie. I just wanna make sure that's clear. Let me ask a clarifying question about that. Was Trixie present? Only one dog was present. Only one dog, okay. I'll be clear, you mentioned two earlier. That was just one dog. Okay, thank you, I did not. It's between the two, it was just one dog and on a leash. All right, other clarifying questions to either of these two people, yeah. I have a clarifying question and Heather's skin out to the select board. I would like to know, moving forward, if people have comments in the greater audience and it's prior to this incident, how do you address it? This gentleman talked about something that was prior to what we are talking about and you did not shut that down. Testimony of a pattern of behavior would be evidence toward a pattern of behavior that helps us evaluate whether or not there is a danger to the community. It does not necessarily influence any decisions or actions relative to calculating offenses but it would be a testimony about a pattern of behavior. I understand, I do question because we are speaking about a dog who is deceased and the comment was about the dog who is deceased. Mark Whitman's complaint is about two dogs, one being Paddington who is deceased, the other one is Trixie who is a lie. This gentleman is talking about Paddington. I do feel the select board should address that and have shut that down and I'm just wondering about that. We're trying to be respectful to all parties. I understand. And so the other thing to keep in mind is that out of this proceeding, we have to make a declaration of a statement of facts that then inform our decisions and whatever we decide could be remedial actions. So even though there are testimonies, all testimonies are going to be determined to be factual or a fact that is then going to be contributed towards our decision. Does that make sense? It does, thank you for clarifying that. Does anybody disagree with that? No, that was very well said. Thank you. Did I see another hand up here? Okay, then thank you, Doug. Can I just clarify my own statement because I feel like I don't have my words to be twisted. I know I said that I see Doug going past my house on his bike. I had not seen him the first time I ever saw him was the time of that incident. I have since seen him at that time. I had never seen him before. I still did not know his name or how to contact him because I learned his name tonight. Thank you. All right, Catherine Landry. Is Kathleen Landry in the room? She's one of the ones we read, I think. Oh, but she signed. She had to have seen yours. Okay. I did read the text messages from her. Okay. Pam DeAndre. Yeah, Pam DeAndre, Elsa mentioned me before and that her dogs came to my house once and they weren't, I just want to state they were nothing but lovely, friendly, also to my husband. I have three dogs myself and one of my dogs was the one that wasn't the nice one of the pack that was happening and I had to contain her because she's not very good with other dogs and I keep her, keep her away from other dogs but Elsa's dogs were wonderful and I was able to give them treats and put them away in my home until Bill was able to come and pick them up. So I just want to, that's my personal experience with those dogs. I have done a lot of training with my own dogs and have also gone to an expert up in Walden to train my oldest dog, Hody, who was a little aggressive when he was a puppy and learned a lot from this one. Her name is Papal Frost and she writes explicitly about dogs that may bite out of fear and one of those things, if a dog is feeling provoked, they may bite and I'm worried that this may have happened to Paddington and another thing with dog behavior, when you have two dogs that were as close as Paddington and Tripsy, when one dog is being handled by a human, when that is happening and I wasn't there, I don't know what happened to Mark, I don't know what provoked this incident, I have no idea, but when a dog sees their alpha dog, their partner dog in an interaction, they will attack. So Paddington is gone. There's nothing to do about deciding what happens to Paddington. What's here is what happens with Tripsy. Tripsy, I haven't heard one thing today that Tripsy has ever done anything except for Mark's testimony. Any dog would do that if their partner dog was in an altercation. So that would happen to any of my three dogs. They would react that way. I live right near Mr. Whitman and I am very concerned. I contain my dogs with an electric fence. My dogs are very good at staying within that fence, but power goes out and then the electric fence doesn't work. We try to keep them inside when that happens. My dogs have gotten loose on occasion. It happens. I would like to know any dog owner that hasn't happened to. The dog in question is Tripsy. And if we're worried about Tripsy getting out again, that could be any dog in town. And Tripsy has only, according to Mark, done this one thing. And that was in defense of her partner dog. So that's the knowing dog behavior and the experience that I had with training and with going to this expert up in Walden for mine. I just know a lot about this and I fear for my own dogs because they do bark. And Mr. Whitman runs by my house just as often as he would run down this road and I'm not feeling like this is not ties into him. I'm sure it was. However, my dogs bark crazy at him when he goes by because I have a hound and that's what they do. And I am worried for my own dogs safety in the future if they would somehow get out of their electric fence. So just wanted to get that and just really keep in mind dog behavior and what dogs would do, any dog would have done. Thank you for Tripsy. Questions for Pam? Select one. So Pam, other than this one training you had, have you had other training? No, that was with my dog, Cody. With your dog. But I have trained my other two dogs. Based on? Based on what I learned from her and they stay within their perimeter. The one that I'd have trouble with is the middle one. She's not good with other dogs and that's because I got her when she was over one year old. I couldn't catch her at puppyhood. And you've interacted with these particular dogs several times and in your opinion, Paddington was the alpha dog. Is that right? I think he was first. So they got Tripsy afterwards. So normally that's how it happens. Whoever is first there, that dog is the alpha and then the others learn from that dog. Understand, I understand, okay. But they learn, it's not that, so Tripsy maybe, they learn how to interact with the humans and the family. So they learn how to be loved and how to be part of the family. So the family's kind of part of the pack as well. It's not just the dogs who have a family as well. But dogs don't necessarily, my other two dogs didn't learn. Like my oldest dog was very aggressive as a puppy and I killed that. I was able to kill that with the training that I learned. My other dogs were never like that. And they all have their own personalities and their own ways. But really any dog would protect their others. Thank you. Questions from anybody else for Pam? All right then, Heather. So I'm wondering, or my statement would be, I feel that has Paddington has died and passed away and I'm wondering how it's unfortunate what happened to Mark, very unfortunate. Like that is a scary thing. We can all agree that that, I mean I've had that happen to myself. I'm not gonna like minimize any experience that he experienced. It's scary, it's frightening. I'm wondering how we can tell the difference between Trixie and Paddington. They look very similar. And Paddington being the alpha, I'm just curious about that piece. Are you asking how we can tell the difference? How Mark can tell the difference? What do you mean? I think when a decision is being considered, I think it's very hard to determine when you are looking at two dogs that are very similar stature. When I look at them in the pictures, they look similar to me. It's very hard to say who attacked, who didn't attack, who was the alpha, who maybe potentially bit the shorts or bit the hand. That's hard to determine when it's one person that had that happen. I'm validating what happened to him. I'm not minimizing it. It's very scary, I've had, we can all sit here and probably have had that experience. It's frightening. However, I do feel that is a determining factor when the select board is thinking about consequences or next steps. How you can determine which dog actually did that and what the next steps are for the appropriate accommodations or consequences to the dog owner. It is not something that is objective. It's very subjective and it's very one person stance. And I hope the select board takes that into consideration. Okay, thank you. Other questions for Heather? I looks like we've got one in the back there. Well, I'm just wondering if Mark claimed that it was Kravitan versus Strixie? I believe what Mark said was it was the male dog. Oh, okay. Can I answer to that? Just a minute, are you finished? Yes. Okay, yes, you can answer. I... Oh. All right. I do believe that Mark knows the difference between my dogs. He runs past my house probably daily. I'm not always told, but almost daily I see him run past my house the afternoon. We have seen him several times when we've been out walking and he's run past us. So he has seen my dogs. He saw Patekton, what we just had Patekton. And he is larger and he has a different color. If it was someone who didn't know ran past my yard that regularly to see my dogs, I would agree that he wouldn't know if Mark says that Patekton was the one who initially lunged at him. I've been inclined to believe that. Thank you. Thank you. Other questions on this? All right then, Leslie Matthews. I want to be clear on this offering, this testimony as facts of something that happened at our home. So I live on the class four portion of Apple Hill Road next to Alice White-Lux property. On the morning of Tuesday, December 20th, 2022, two very large light colored dogs showed up on our property near the back door of the house. I know that was the date because we exchanged emails with our neighbors about these dogs and I saved the emails. So when I learned about this hearing on Front Forge Forum, I looked back for those emails. I tried to approach the dogs when they were missed for our house to see if I could befriend them and look at their tabs so I could contact the owner. However, at least one of the dogs brought with me and I felt threatened so I backed off. I yelled at them several times and was ultimately able to drive them off just by yelling and keeping my distance. My husband emailed our neighbors Nathan Longo and Mark Whitman and described the dogs to try to find out who they were and who might be the owner. Both neighbors told us that they were great Pyrenees. They had both seen them before and that they lived down in Gospel Hollow across from the town hall. My husband also spoke with two other of our neighbors on the north side of Apple Hill Road. One reported that the dogs had been in her yard that day as well. The other had been in his barn that morning and hadn't seen them. I was very concerned because we usually free range our chickens during the day. They never leave our property and we free range them when we're home. I don't like the idea of stray dogs running uncontrolled on our property because I fear for the safety of our chickens who are also pets to us. Fortunately, we hadn't yet let our chickens out the morning the dogs visited. I also feel fortunate having seen the injuries our neighbor Mark suffered that I wasn't attacked by the dogs when I tried to approach them. Thank you. Elsa, I'm guessing that was one of the times they were out just before Christmas. I'm guessing that it might have been, but you can't remember. Do you have to find out whether there are large white hair, large white hair? Well that's why I ask the question whether we know that the dogs were loose at that time. No, I do not know that. You do not know that. Okay. Well December 20th would have been one of the winter storms where the power went out. Well it could have been, and that would know, but I do not know that location from that date. So maybe I'll guess. Which texts or emails I say if they're deleted, I was obviously anticipating you to leave things. Okay, thank you. Questions for Leslie? Anybody? All right, thank you. That's the end of our list of people who've signed up to testify. At this point, I would ask, is there anybody else who wants to testify to offer evidence? Yes? You want to testify again? I just want to comment on a few of the things that were in the statement from, I believe Tracy said something who commented about being concerned that she had never seen a post on front porch forum about my dogs being missing. I think it was the one that came in late. Yes, that's Halter. I just want to address that that is very true. On the occasions my dogs went out, I did not ever post on front porch forum because there is too much time to wait. Front porch forum is released once a day. So anytime that I was aware that my dogs were out, I immediately sent my children driving around. I have two teenagers who drive and have their own cars that they were home and available to drive and search with me. I send them, and I use Facebook Messenger to send group messages to neighbors who live on any of the roads where I thought they might go. I just, I felt like that characterizes me as not trying to find my dogs. And in every instance, for a minute, I've known that they were out. We immediately were out driving the roads and contacting everybody, but just not via that forum. So I didn't want to wait eight hours for a front porch forum to post the show. Okay, thank you. I'm one of those people that's contacted me. Yeah, I love that. So if nobody else wants to offer evidence, at this point, we're gonna close the evidentiary portion of the hearing. What will happen is at the end of this, I'm guessing we're going to want to continue this hearing just in case, we're gonna go into deliberative session. We may do that tonight, we may do that another time. If we find that we don't have enough evidence to make a decision, we may try to gather more evidence. We may not, but just in case, what we'll do is we'll adjourn it to a date certain. And then if we find we don't need more evidence, we will close the hearing at our next actual meeting. All right, so that's the process. However, I don't, I want you folks to have a chance to talk about your concerns and to just discuss what we might do. So at this point, I'd like to ask, are there people who would like to speak? No, well, that's easy then. Seriously, I mean, all right, you just get to listen. Yeah? No, I guess I would just be kind of concerned on whether or not any additional commentary would create bias in this case for making a bell and lots of mutual stuff. So whether or not we could actually hear that. That's why I'm calling it, I think we've heard a lot of, over the time, we've heard a lot of things that could bias us that we will consider hearsay or things we've heard outside of this hearing. And I think we're pretty good at sorting that stuff out. Can I just make that this is non-evidence comment or something in the future? Now that I have, I have not read our dog ordinance as powerful as I have over and over in this week. As a medical professional, I have a concern that there's a distinction in our dog ordinance about a dog injury requiring medical attention versus not requiring medical attention. Evidence-based practice standard of care any time someone has an injury with broken skin sustained from a cat, dog or human bite, antibiotics are indicated. So by that standard, basically every injury inflicted by an animal requires medical attention. So I just think at some point in the future we should revise the dog ordinance to reflect in some way how will we determine what we consider minor versus more serious. I can tell you as a health care provider the vast majority of dog bites that I have seen in clinic but I've taken care of personally or that my colleagues have. We have the person wash their wound with soap and water. We give them a three to five day prophylactic preventative course of antibiotics, encourage them to rest the wound, update their tetanus vaccine if indicated and send them on their way. So that is standard of care that has nothing to do with the severity or not of an injury. It could be a nip from an eight week old puppy or a true attack. Questions? With that also then, I mean that kind of also negates any kind of emotional stress or damage caused by that as well. Right, I'm just saying the way the wording is. It says an injury that does not require medical care. Right. It's not a proxy for severity is what you're saying. Right, and any person who has a dog injury who contacts their medical provider and says, do I need to go to the ER or urgent care? Their medical provider is going to say yes, you do. Yeah, for sure. So that just, I'd like us to think about, again, sometime in the future, how to write that more clearly because I think that we provide better guidance to the future. Yeah, thank you. Thank you. Wait, we're gonna discuss the dog ordinance now or are we talking about this now? I'm sorry. All right, go ahead, Maria. No, I just wanted to say, I think one of the things that hasn't been discussed is that there doesn't, in my opinion, there doesn't need to be a discussion of was he injured enough for it to be considered a nuisance. A nuisance animal can be an animal that makes you feel uncomfortable because they are at large and you are trying to enjoy your community. We all understand that, right? We don't, there is nobody saying Mark wasn't hurt bad enough to have this conversation. Yeah, okay. I think we can pick that. Everybody understands that it is a traumatic, stressful situation. Again, I have two dogs fenced in in my yard. They make a lot of noise. They are dogs. My go-go being second name is Cotein Bear because that's the energy she brings to the table. But I feel like we also need to separate the way evil feel about seeing dogs in a fence and barking at them, which is a sort of great joy to dogs and whether or not those dogs are actually dangerous. There's a difference between, I see Elsa's big dogs behind their fence and it makes me uncomfortable and those dogs are truly a nuisance. So I feel like there needs to be some, and I can tell you that I'm pretty certain in the town of Calis that Elsa and I might be two or four people who have fences in their yard to try to contain their dogs. So I do think that the expense of fencing in your yard, as I can tell you, is extreme. And the thought process behind it and the time it takes in a person to find who will build you a fence way to heck out here ought to be taken into consideration as well in terms of the responsibility of the dog owner. Thank you. Dogs are sometimes awfully impossible to keep inside your property. Leslie. I just want to make one more quick statement of what isn't part of the evidentiary hearing. As a chicken owner, I know that might seem silly to people but we feel very strongly about our chickens and we take very good care of them and we allow them to free range on our property without ever leaving our property. I certainly know that if one of our chickens left our property and was injured that would be my responsibility. But I hear a lot of talk about how, at this meeting about how stray dogs are running around town or just a thing that happens and that's the way dogs are and it's not preventable and so forth. And as someone who raises livestock and cares about it it's a little distressing for me to think that, and I read from Forge Forum and there's almost daily some other dog is loose and the concern is for finding the dog and I understand that because I'm an animal owner too. But I am pretty distressed about the notion that stray dogs running around town are just something we have to live with because dogs aren't containable or these things happen. When I live in fear basically that my chickens are gonna be killed by a domestic dog that runs stray animal property. So I just wanted to make that statement. You know chickens? Sure do. I thought you did. Okay. But I don't know when I see a stray dog on my property whether that's dogs that would threaten chickens or myself or not. So hearing a lot of stories about how friendly the dogs are isn't that helpful to me because when I see two dogs that I've never seen before on my property near my chicken housing I don't know, I feel threatened. Thank you. I thank you. Would you state your name please? Can I just start by being done with evidence or not? We are done with evidence. Thank you. Yeah. I'd like to say that my daughter. Would you state your name please? Judy Vangie. Thank you. My, it was my harm. I feel like it's happened but that's not what I'm talking about. My daughter made fear for several years in the Gallagher house. She had a large dog, a rescue dog. And the dog was really dangerous with other dogs, not with people. But she kept the dog on a tether at all times. And I failed to understand why even though one might have a fence around their house why big dogs can't just be tethered and why that can't be a requirement. I know it's not so much fun for them but at least and I too have noticed so many calls for help. Dog lost. It means the dogs are free. And I as a 90 year old person living on the corner of Kentville Road and having dogs running around and in my garage is where I keep my car. It makes me a bit nervous. Because you never know whether a dog will like you or not. It may be a perfectly wonderful dog but it may take a dislike to you. So I'm suggesting tethered. You see I've seen several hands up Doug. I, we want to do a rebroke. We've been here since the beginning. And for 40 of those years we raised poultry. And we've lost a lot of birds to dogs. Half the time we never got to see the dog. We'd go down to the barn and they're dead. One year was 18 and sure dead turkeys were left there. That cost me hundreds of dollars. So it isn't concerning anyone who's got poultry about significant losses we face. I may be wrong on this but I had the understanding for a long time ago that dog license fees were supposed to be part of a fund to pay for damages to livestock. Yeah. I don't know if that's a good point for you. But if you don't find a dog, you just take your losses and that makes you uncomfortable when you see dogs around the place with animals. So it's not a casual issue. Carolyn. Hi, I'm Carolyn Morton. I'm just wondering, I know we don't have time tonight for everyone to tell their dog stories about times they've been intimidated, maybe not bitten but one of those moments when you're walking it all works out okay. But I think it would be great to have a chance at some point at another time to get feedback from the community about things that have happened to them firsthand. Because I have like six in my back pocket from a bunch of years and my kids were bitten years ago. I've never been bitten but I've certainly been scared witless numbers of times and sometimes very recently. So I wondered if you could think about having another evening where people could share their experiences because I don't talk about those experiences with many people. My husband hears my stories when I come home but I wonder if there would be a chance for just getting feedback from the community about what they're experiencing. And I mean, I think there's a law, there isn't a release law that you're not allowed to have a dog running free. I mean, you're not allowed to have a dog. Okay, okay. I mean, I read the ordinance. The dog's at large meaning off the property which is out of the ownership code. That would be off the property. Running at large means the dog is not under the control of the owner at all times. Yeah, I mean, if I'm taking a walk, which happened recently and a dog ran off of this property and ran at a high rate of speed towards me and I started to freak out. My husband wasn't good at this. And I froze because I don't have dogs and they know I don't know dogs. I froze and the owner, I did what I do when that happens. I said, hey, try to talk calmly and not look directly. And then the owner, the owner heard this because he was a distance away and then called the dog back and I yelled out to the owner, hey, you know, your dog just charged at me. And he's like, oh, we heard this is my time. Oh, he's friendly. But I didn't know that and I would hope that in your, this isn't pertinent to the specific and I realized that. But I would hope that in your determinations, don't forget the emotional toll these things take and you don't need to break skin and you don't need to present at the ED to be, those memories stay with you and it informs the next time I take a walk. So I would appreciate if we could have that discussion sometime down the road. All right, I've made a note of it. Thank you. Somebody, I guess you were next, Pam. Yeah, I wanna address what you said, and I say I hear your poetry is very important to a lot of people in town. Many of my close friends said she makes birds and had that with some of the dogs. I don't think what, I wasn't trying to say that it's okay to have your dog loose. That's not what this was about. I was, and I don't think that's what Maria was saying. I think this happened by Elsa's very unfortunate error of leaving her cage open and she said she'd regret that for all her days. Human error happens. I have three dogs. I live near you. I'm not on the other side, Apple Hill. My dogs would never come up over Apple Hill. I keep them contained with an electric fence. Tethering a dog isn't humane. I'm sorry, but I know that from April Frost, the expert up in Walden. They feel completely confined. Like it's just not, I did it with one of my dogs and it made her behavior worse. From a behavior perspective, tethering is not okay for a dog. I feel very, very strongly about that. So please don't recommend for Trixie to be tethered. It will only make her angrier. So please, I think I'm speaking right now. Okay, all right. Please let her finish, then you can speak if you wish. I just wanted to speak to Tetherer and it's not good behaviorally for a dog to be tethered. Thank you. I know that. And I don't think we're saying that it's okay for dogs to run free. It's not. I keep my dogs contained. Elsa keeps her dog, now she only has one dog, Trixie, is left in the fence. That's what's on the table here. That's what we need to think about. And as a dog owner, she is responsible to keep Trixie in the fence. Trixie is not a nuisance. I have three dogs and I really, really feel almost like, you know, talking about, I don't know whether a dog's gonna be friendly to me or not. I understand that fear, but I know, I feel like I'm the dogs better than people in life sometimes. And those dogs that are friendly, if an owner says they're friendly, if someone's gonna tell me that I have to put a leash on my dog to walk a callous trail, when I know my dog is not aggressive and is great with other dogs and people, I'm gonna take offense to that. I will not let my dogs run loose. My dogs will not get your chickens. My dog dogs, one of my dogs went to the cruise house once, years ago, when I had a baby come home who was terrified of the dog. And my dog was threatened with a gunshot. So let's just not talk about that one. But I just, you know, things will happen. Dogs will get out by human error. Humans are not robots. Dogs will get out by human error and beyond their control. Sometimes, that's reality. It's not saying that all of our dogs are gonna run wild throughout callous. No, that's not what I'm saying. That's not what everybody has said. It just, once in a blue moon, happens. That is reality. So that once in a blue moon, it happens. That's addressed in the policy, right? Like, that's why there's a, you're right. That's for just loose dogs, right? Loose dogs, however, that are biting people, might be a different story. Absolutely, absolutely. Okay, we're beginning to get on that. You guys, pay up for the chair. That's what I'm saying. We're beginning to get into the discussion that Carolyn wants us to have, which sounds like a good idea. We probably should. But let's not do that tonight. It's already eight o'clock. I will ask, did you want to make a statement? Yes. Would you state your name, please? We've got a lot of political stuff going on. Susan and all about evidence or anything here. And there's a lot of new statements. I don't raise chickens anymore because of dogs on my property constantly because I live next to the road. And it's women's standing. I don't have a leash. Well, I don't think we don't have a leash drop. But we should have one. And I think we need a discussion because the dogs are impacting my life and threatening me on a regular basis. Not many know who these dogs are. All right. I'm hearing. And I hear these other stories. And I just know this story myself about Mike, now I'm hearing other stories. I think you all need to address this. Well, I think we're hearing that. We're hearing that people want to have a town-wide discussion about this. So we are a little overwhelmed with work right now. I don't think we'll get to this immediately, but I have it on my list. Okay, yes, Heather. I just want to thank the Slack board. I think that there's a lot of comments and feelings and emotions. And I really appreciate it like leaning in on the process. I think when people have things they feel passionate about in this town, there is a process. And we can stick to the procedure. It's really helpful. And so I think when people have really passionate stories and really experiential, they feel passionate about what's happening to them, like there's a process to go through. It's helpful. And so that seems evident in this case for Mark and for Elsa, for it to stick to that process. I mean, it's not a policy, but a process, a procedure. So I think that's helpful that we just kind of like lean into that and follow that. Yes. I just have a question. Is there a policy or a way that says that it should be reported to the town? Like what actions do you take if you do feel, I mean, going to somebody's house and threatening to kill their dog isn't part of that, right? He's sorry. That was my concern here. I'm here. I have dogs. And we keep them in our yard as much as possible. And whenever they've gone out, anybody's threatened to kill my dog. I mean, he submitted, that's just horrible. There is a process. It's not, I don't see it. You're right. I don't see it there. But we do have a process for filing up. It's all right. It's okay. And Mark did follow that process. He went, he came to the town and he filed a complaint and we followed up. That was through three. I know the town closed on Friday. That's correct. That's why he waited til Monday. But Elsa did contact the town prior to Monday, correct? Not that I'm aware of. She's not in Barbara on Sunday. We contacted her. Right, because we hear her contact with you, right? No, because we had heard that Mark was going to file the complaint. And I knew that Elsa worked. And I thought the best time to get her would be Sunday. So we asked Barbara and our animal control officer to be maybe to go and talk to her. I didn't know if there was like a procedure to have her reported. You're going to have to bear with us a bit. As you know, we're all brand new here. And we are feeling our way through this like a lot of us. We're doing the best we can to be fair and to come up with a solution that makes everybody happy. I mean, to have somebody that's around that threatens to kill a dog and then the dog's dead. We're not addressing that. Right, but that was the steps that you took. And I'm just wondering if there were steps. Oh, she filed a complaint with the game warden and I believe the game warden is investigating. No, but steps to report a dog attack, like, is there a, you know, is there a process that you just call the town like? I think Jamie wants to say something. I just want to clarify that Mark approached me Friday morning as a select board member to report the incident and ask what the process was. And new to all this, I didn't know what the process was. So I said, we'll get back to you, I'll follow up, I'll figure it out. I contacted the town clerk's office and Anne and Barbara and Tegan over the weekend started the process, started the conversations, had the follow up conversation. So the official report happened Monday the next time the office was open. Right. But the process started as soon as Mark made his report. First thing the next morning. Okay, I just wasn't sure if it was listed anywhere that we, how it worked. You know what steps you have to take? Do we have to call the town health officer or animal control officer? Yes, you probably know. I'm Rose Pellchuck. I want you to feel safe in your community. And if you have any questions, you pick up the phone and you call the town office, done, deal, that's it. They will lead you, they will guide you. We have a town website with enough policies and procedures on there if you want to do some reading. That was the one I got to love. I was just really interested, it said that like there was no animal control officer. Right now, right now, when I was on the website, I was just asking. But I just want you to feel confident that this is a safe place and we all care so deeply. I don't want you to feel troubled. Oh, I'm a little bit anxious. Just because it's confusing. Why do people do feel anxious? Well, I'm just trying to offer you a little bit of reassurance that we're all here because we care. We're all doing that. I know, I mean, I've been bit by a dog. It's not like I don't take that as a life. You know, as a kid, I got bit and faced by a dog. You know, it's not. But if ever you have a question, Barbara and Teagan, they will leave you. They will leave you. Thank you for that, Rose. All right, anything else? Then I'm going to turn to the select board and ask, do you folks all feel confident that we have enough information to make a decision? Or would you rather not close to hearing just in case we feel we want to get more information? Are you saying we're not going into a negative session? Oh, yes. It's not executive session. This is a different thing. We're going into deliberative session, and we do not have to report out. So we're going to close or adjourn the hearing right now. And then we will talk about when we might end the deliberative session, which would be tonight. So that's my question. My first question is, shall we close or continue the hearing? I feel like we should have some deliberation before we make that. I suspected that was the case. OK, in that case, I would take a motion to continue this hearing to a date. First of all, now, that's what we'll do. To continue this hearing to a date and time certain. So moved. Would you like to offer a date and time certain? Should we do it during our next regular? We've got a very full agenda on the 12th. I'm not sure that we can. Oh, we can have Orogero on June 5. That is the BCA. The BCA means, yeah, but is that a regular? That's why this is a court meeting. That's what the BCA means. I feel like it takes more than an hour. It depends on how much feedback we get from BCA members. And what time is that? It's starting to get scheduled for 6 to 7.30. If people come prepared, it can go very quickly. If you don't come prepared, it will take longer. It's also a little bit of a wait from now. Well, what would you like to offer as part of your motion? I don't know. Black or something better? June 26. Then that's a regular, so I'm working on it. Oh, OK. You're the next regular, so I'm working on where we'll have that. All right, so we have a motion to continue the hearing, what would we say? It's 6 o'clock, so we do it first if we do it. And with that, we vote with the possibility that just after we deliberate, we will have made a decision? It does. And if that happens, we will simply, at 6 o'clock on June 26, close the hearing. But we can issue a vote. Yeah, what I want to know is how long people have to be. We can, and at that point, I'll send out something that tells people that we're just going to adjourn the hearing, that there's no need to come. OK, because obviously the alternative is we just commit another night to this. Right, which may or may not be necessary. So we have a motion on the table to continue this hearing to 6 o'clock on June 26. Do I have a second? Second. Any further discussion? Is this going to work for everybody to do it this way? OK, all in favor? Aye. Thanks. And now I would like a motion of who go into deliberative session. So moved. Do we have a second? OK, all in favor? Aye. And here we go. Thank you.