 Okay, we're back. We're live. I'm so happy to be here. 4 o'clock, rock on a Wednesday and you know what that means. Hawaii, the state of clean energy. I'm Jay Fidel, my co-host. It's my cabinet. He's a co-chair of the Hawaii Energy Policy Forum, which is the progenitor of this whole episode and show and series and everything. I'm like, hey, we have two special guests from HNEI followed by a third guest later in the show. And to my left is Tatiana, wait, Reshentenko. Yes. Okay. And to her left is Jean-San Pierre, without a hyphen. That's correct. Hello, Jay. Nice to have you guys here. We've had a great month talking about HNEI. We found out so much stuff. All this great research is going on right under our noses on Cook Street, believe it or not. So we are delighted to have you here. We want to know more. Tonight's show is about fuel cells. We're going to dig deep on fuel cells. Do you want to put this as a perspective, Mike? Well, it is the Hawaii Natural Energy Institute at HNEI for the acronym folks. And this is a long-standing research unit at the University of Hawaii and they've been working on hydrogen for quite some time now and a bunch of other things. And it's funded partly by the state, probably by the fuel tax. And put some really good work going on there. Fabulous. Okay, so what are we going to talk about tonight? Let's get your share, Tatiana, and then we get Jean's share. So, Summary now, what are you going to talk about tonight? Well, I would like to tell several words about how fuel cells are working and then introduce which kind of fuel cell products are available in the market and which kind of challenges fuel cell technology is facing right now and why it's still in the early stage of commercialization. Okay, and you guys are doing some interesting research down there. You're going to talk about that, Jean? Yes, that's correct. Yes, I will talk a little bit about our own facility here in Hawaii, world class, I would say. And then after that, I will detail a little bit more to the research project that we have. And then that will link to what our third guest will talk about later. Okay, got patents? Plenty. Then you can talk about it. Oh, absolutely. There are no secrets here at Think Tech. We'll touch you on it, let's start with you. So give us the landscape, you know, how does this work now with fuel cells in the marketplace and in the continuum toward 100% clean energy? Okay, fuel cells is a system which can directly convert chemical energy or fuels to the electricity without involving in any movement parts or combustion. So because of that, it's very efficient compared to the regular Carnot cycle. So if you look on my first slide, you can see the principal schematics of the fuel cell operation. Let's see the first slide, then. Okay, so you can see that there are anode and the cathodic fuel cell and there is electrolyte which divides two electrodes. Fuel is supplied on the anode and there is oxidation of the fuel, the formation of the ion and electrons. Ions will move through electrolyte while electrons will go through wires from the anode to the cathode and this is electrical current and we can use it to power our devices. At the cathode, there is a reaction between oxygen, electrons and the ions with formation of the products of reaction which is water. Usually, you can see that fuel cell can operate as long as their fuel and oxidant are supplied and this is the main difference between fuel cell and the batteries because there is no charging step here. Usually, one cell produces voltage lower than one volt and that's why we need to put several cells and make a stack as you can see on the next figure here and to get our desired voltage to power our devices, electrical devices. So, if you look on there, so fuel cell provides different source of electricity and which kind of application for fuel cells. Fuel cells has application as stationary power sources, portable power sources and to power vehicles. If you look on the power, stationary power sources which we can do, we can produce actually electricity and we can produce a hot water which is actually implemented in any farm, Japanese any farm program. Then we use a natural gas to get a hydrogen and then use hydrogen to get electricity and hot water. Natural gas is the source of hydrogen for the fuel cell. Yes. And actually, this program started in 2009 and Japanese manufacturers and manufacturers, they distributed around 150,000 units through their how many age years and it was quite successful program and also for those stationary power sources, I would like to mention that there is a new product from Toshiba on the market. It's called H21. It's a unit which can utilize renewable sources of energy and you can produce a hydrogen from them through electrolysis. So, hydrogen. So, electrolyzer. Yeah. We can keep hydrogen there and then use this hydrogen to produce electricity. It's the power which can supply the system is around up to 100 kilowatts. So, it can be used. Expensive? It's probably expensive, but currently Toshiba distributed tests for field investigations to fulfill tests and it's right now in several cities in several port areas. So, what do you what do you think the future is and where is this all going to go? We know cars. Yes. But there are challenges and I'll ask you about that. What else beside cars and other vehicles? Well, as I said, there are stationary power sources and also there are portable power sources. So, small devices which can replace batteries or to power some devices. Whatever. It can be anything. So, okay. So, what are the challenges now? Well, there are several challenges here. First of all, of course, if you're talking about hydrogen fuel cells, there is a hydrogen infrastructure. It's a challenge here. And the next challenge, it's a cost of this material, of this system because they're using platinum and platinum is expensive. And there is a target to reduce cost of these units. What about as opposed to all the women give up their wedding rings? It's gold. It's a gold. So, gold does not work here. So, we have to stick to the platinum, which is a little bit. Just trying to be creative here. Yes. Of course. Part of the goal is to find other materials besides platinum that would be cheaper. Yes, that's correct. And there is an iron-containing catalyst, which might be a good substitute for that. The third challenge here, it's a durability. Durability of the system and environmental adaptability. So, the system should operate in different operating conditions. It's low temperature, high temperature, which kind of air quality or fuel quality. We have to be sustainable in such conditions. And the last, but not the least, it's of course, it's workforce development. So, if you have the system in the market, we need to maintain them to provide service. And of course, it's a way the educator should move. Of course, these challenges, they show us a direction where research and science should go in the future to make this technology viable and available in the market. And actually, in the Hawaii, here we have a facility which is working in that area for almost 15 years. And it's a good class facility. And I think Jean will tell several words about what we are doing in detail. Fair enough. Okay. Jean, tell us what's going on in terms of the research. Well, before going there, I think I wanted to say a few words about the facility itself. And I think I'll just slide to that effect there. So, this is a sub portion, I guess, of the Hawaii Natural Energy Institute. So, we have a fuel cell testing lab, which is, we renamed it the Hawaii Sustainable Energy Research Facility. Not this slide, I think it's not the next one, but the following one is possible. Yeah, let's skip this one. And here we go. So, it's the Hawaii Sustainable Energy Research Facility for short. Hi, sir. Yes, thank you. I didn't come up with the name. I think our director actually came up with that. Here we go. So, you got it. So, I think it's a fairly catchy name here for Hawaii. So, we are located on Cook Street. It's on Hawaiian property. It started back in 2002 after Public Utilities Commission decision in order, if I'm memory serves me right, it's 1993-98 to create this facility here. So, you can see our logo on top on the left there. And you can see that the logo are actually on the warehouse itself. So, if you look inside, obviously, I'm just showing here on the right, only one of the test stations that we use to obviously characterize fuel cells and investigate and try to understand them and that sort of thing. What is not clear here is where is the fuel cell. So, if you look at the computer screen there to the lower left a little bit there, you can see a black square essentially there. That's your fuel cell where all the wires actually converge themselves. So, we have a number of different units like that that we can test fuel cell. And if we compare ourselves to other labs in the world, we do good research and we definitely well equipped to actually characterize fuel cells. So, definitely world-class here. And it's right here in Hawaii. So, what are you testing them for? So, why are we testing them? Okay. So, during the last few years, maybe three, four years, there's essentially three major themes we've been exploring at the facility. The first one is somewhat obvious because most of our funding comes from the Office of Naval Research. So, as part of this deal essentially, we're supporting a lot of their activity at their Naval Research Laboratory in Maryland. So, we have a collaboration there and we have them on different topics. Obviously, I cannot necessarily talk about all the topics there, but it clearly has to do with about unmanned hair, unmanned, sorry, aerial vehicles and unmanned underwater vehicles because we're talking about the Navy here. So, we're supporting a lot of the activities there. The second topic here and I'll skip or keep it short because I'm going to come back later to it is contamination. So, Tanya was talking about that air and especially oxygen in air has to be supplied to the cell and hydrogen as well. But depending how these things hydrogen is produced, normally it contains substances that you don't necessarily want in a fuel cell. Same with air. You know, you're familiar with today, we have, you know, I have fewer hair. But if you're in an underwater vehicle, you need to have a source of air. Let's come back to that question. So, the point is there's substances that actually most substantial will actually sit on the platinum catalyst that Tanya was talking about and blocks the reaction. Okay. So, we don't want that. One key culprit here in Hawaii is sulfur dioxide, which is pewed by, obviously, the volcano. And we'll come back to that later because Mitch is going to give a little bit more detail about the program with respect to that. So, bottom line here is many substances actually are not very good for fuel cell operation. So, that's been essentially the second topic here. A third topic is also, because we understand fuel cell were a good experience, we continually also tried to develop new methods to actually characterize those fuel cells and understand them. So, to this day, there's still a need for doing that. So, that's basically these three topics cover pretty much what we've been doing in the last few years. And what are you seeking in the end? I mean, what is all this directed at? Greater efficiency? Greater productivity? What? Well, we should expect to... Well, cheaper is part of it. But actually, since we're not at the moment doing material research, the cost is not necessarily something we directly look at. However, contamination is... I will link it to durability, okay? Because normally, if you have a contaminants that affect your fuel cell, it would take these contaminants in air or hydrogen usually are in part per million, okay? And it take quite some time to actually create the effect. So, that may develop over tens or hundreds of hours. So, we're talking about durability of the system at this time, okay? So, the other actually here is that, okay, okay, can I prevent the contamination in the first place? Okay, so, we were involved in the past to actually... Sorry, I'm losing my words here for a second. So, hydrogen has specification in terms of purity. So, we were involved in actually defining those specifications. So, that's one thing we've been working on. Also, in the lab, now that we contaminants, we recognize how important this is. We also, you know, you have that in the internal combustion engine. You have a filter, okay? So, in the fuel cell, you also have an air filter to try to capture all these things. This is the preventive part of the research here. So, we have capabilities to actually test new filters and we also have activities to design new filter materials, okay? So, we have material science as an essential part of this. Well, give me a second here and actually, you're totally right. I think in the future, we will do more and more of that. And I think, Tanya, all they mentioned with respect to, you know, different catalysts, but it's more than just the catalyst. There's also other aspects to look at. So, in turn, and also, let's say that the filter fails or somebody decides not to replace their filter on time, the fuel cell can get contaminated. So, in that moment, we're trying to answer the questions, what can we do about it? Can I recover the performance I lost? Okay. So, many contaminants, fortunately, if you remove the source of the contaminants, they will just recover by themselves. But there's still a number of contaminants that, and sulfur dioxide is one of those, if you get, it gets in the cell, you have to actively do something to remove it. And that takes some doing. And there's still research being done there because it's difficult to do in the actual application, okay? If you're using natural gas as a source, there's sulfur in natural gas. Yes, that's what's coming back to how the hydrogen is made. So, predominantly these days is methane-beforming. And obviously, sulfur is a key component of this. But if it's water electrolysis, then usually it's different type of contaminants that get there, if any at all. Because I think it's pure, you know, you would get a pure hydrogen there. Correct. That's right. So, is there anybody else doing this research elsewhere? Are you way ahead of the crowd or what? Are you collaborating? Yes, we are. Tanya, for example, is collaborating on catalysts with the University of New Mexico. In terms of contamination, we definitely ahead of the game here, I think. I think we, if you look at what's been done here in Hawaii, there's not many people in the world actually look at these problems. Yeah, that's the thing that people don't know. You have to know that we're way ahead. I mean, that Hawaii has some world-class research going on in the fuel cells. Thank you, Jay. I appreciate that. That's what I think anyway. And I think you guys are really a good example of that right here, you know, a quarter mile from where we sit. But let's, we have to close on this part of the discussion. At the end, we missed a couple of your slides. I wonder if you could sort of wrap around this and tell us, you know, what this research is going to mean in terms of the marketplace and what it's going to mean in terms of Hawaii's position in being a leader around fuel cells. Well, actually, I would like to tell you that every year, 60 to 70,000 fuel cell units are manufactured in shipped globally. And of course, Asian region, Asian, like Japan and South Korea, they are the leaders, the leaders for fuel cell deployments. So I think it's, for Hawaii, it's very interesting to be here because when in the middle between Asian region and America, and they probably could be sort of a place for adoption of this new technology, a decade advantage from their Asian, Asia and from America. So all these technology can meet here. And I think because we have here a world-class facility, I think we have a good opportunity to bring that together. Yeah. And if I may just add an element to that, that totally different than what Tanya is saying here, which is totally valid, is that we have to realize that even though many of these systems are commercially available now, there's still a lot of need for continuing research. Sure. And the reason for this is that somebody has to adopt or say, I'm going to buy this product. Now you're going back to social science and technology adoption usually follow a S-shaped curve. Okay. So it's slow at first, accelerate and then saturate when the market obviously has absorbed the technology, just like obviously the cell phone here. But where we are today, usually adoption is self-sustaining when you're about between five and 20% adoption. So even though these things are commercially available now, we order the magnitude below that at the present time. So that means that there's still a lot we can do to accelerate this. Okay. If you're operating on the assumption that this technology, fuel cell technology, will be an answer to many questions out there in energy, in consumer price. I remember it was a computer, it was a Japanese company, I think, it was going to build fuel cells into their computers in order to generate the electrical current necessary to run the computer. I don't know if that ever happened. No, it's happening now. There were some prototypes and there were products on the market for the development of fuel cells we've already developed for to power computers like Toshiba, Samsung. Toshiba is one thing. Toshiba, Samsung developed that. But as I said, it was the main challenge here because this system a little bit expensive compared to regular batteries. That's why probably it stopped. You know, one of the challenges here has been to find renewable energy for transportation. That's true. We've been hopelessly behind in that whole sector and fuel cells are promising. It is promising and the results out there, Atanya mentioned that there's always commercial systems available out there. They've been adopted. There's more and more of it. So that's a positive spin I will give. I've been in fuel cells since 95. The next, I guess, even longer than I am. And over all this entire period, I see more and more and more in the field. So something is happening. Something good is happening. Something's happening and you guys are on the point of it. We're not yet at the self-sustaining adoption ratio yet. We have to keep in touch with you actually, John. Okay. Yeah. John Sampierre with a hyphen. Yes. That's John and Reggie Cienko. Thank you for coming down to you guys. We're going to go to the second part of our show right after this break. All right, Mike? Yep. Okay. Time to go. Right back. 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We make responsible decisions while we cheer on our heroes and toast their success. Elevate your Match Day experience. If you drink, never drive. Bingo. We're back. Mike Hamlin and I are enjoying an education in hydrogen fuel cells. Wow. We are indeed. We are indeed. We have one of our... And now we've got the program manager for hydrogen fuel cells at HNEI, that's the Hawaii Natural Energy Institute. And his name is Mitch Ewan, and we know him for about 600 years. Right. As a member of the forum. So where do you come in on this as a program manager for hydrogen? Yeah, I'm the hydrogen systems program manager. What I do is I take technology that's almost commercially ready and I deploy it in the real world. So I take the work they've done and I'm deploying it right now. For example, while I'm doing this show, I'll talk a little bit about what I'm doing on the big island. Where I'm deploying three hydrogen fuel cell buses that will be deployed on the big island. So if you want to throw up that first slide, I just want to give you an overview of the project. Which shows... Once it comes up. Let's look at that slide. There we go. So picture the big island. So we have a project on the big island where we are producing hydrogen and Kona right beside the Kona airport. You'll see that on the left of the slide. So I have a hydrogen production system there that's comprised of an electrolyzer. I'll have hydrogen storage. And we'll also have a hydrogen dispenser so we can fuel one of our buses there, which will be operated by the Helion bus service. The commercial bus service. Yeah, it's the county bus. And we purchase that bus using a braille tax money. And then you converted it. And U.S. hybrid, who is active here in Hawaii, converted that over to a fuel cell. That's Hcat. At Hcat. Right down the street. Just down the street from our Cook Street. All good things happening in Kakaako, we're going to say. So just looking at the slide. So we're producing the hydrogen and Kona. We have two additional buses that are going to be deployed at Volcano National Park. You can see that to the right of the picture. And in order to get the hydrogen from Kona to Havo, we use hydrogen tube trailers or hydrogen transport trailers. You'll see those are the white things. I have some pictures, some photographs of them later in the show here. And it's about 138 miles. And we haul them by a truck. And we're working with a Loha Petroleum and one of their subcontractors to actually haul the hydrogen from Kona to Havo. So it is electrolyzer. What are you putting in? What are you getting out? Yeah, we're putting in electricity, which we get from the grid and water. The grid actually on the Big Island during the day, a bright sunny day, is about 83% renewable energy. And then that falls at night to about 50%. So you get it during the day. We get the maximum amount of renewable energy during the day, but we still have to operate this 24-7 to get the amount of hydrogen we need to operate these buses. So it's a storage device. The hydrogen is acting as a storage device. Exactly. Stores energy. Okay. Great storage. Why would I want a hydrogen bus instead of a regular old-fashioned bus? Well, I think that's a really open-ended question. Yeah, there's lots of reasons. But the two primary ones is people, there's like on the mainland, people will wait for the hydrogen bus before they take the diesel bus. First of all, the diesel bus is very noisy. And also it spews out hydrogen. I mean, yeah, car exhaust. So it's smelly, dirty, whatever. People will wait for the quiet stealth ride of the hydrogen bus every time. Yeah. Staying awesome is because on a trip in a hydrogen bus at Hickam one time, you couldn't hear anything. Yeah. The loudest sound was the, you know, it was... The rattling of the bus. The rattling of the bus, right. The keys in your pocket or something. There was no sound from the generation system. Yeah, it's got very good power, very good acceleration because it has lots of torque because it's propelled by electric motors. So the drivers love it. And the mechanics like it because they don't have to deal with a dirty old greasy engine when they're maintaining. It's not that much maintenance to do on it. And we're also able to recapture a lot of the energy from braking because the bus is always braking every time it stops. So we regenerate that power in storage of the battery on board the bus. So it becomes very efficient. So it's about twice as efficient as a diesel bus. That's great. Yeah. And of course, you know, all those environmental considerations are involved. Yeah, exactly. But what do you hope to achieve with this project? I mean, what are you going to show the world? Where does it go after? What conclusions do you want to make and what do you want to happen after that? Okay. So the strategy is to focus on public transportation because we're using taxpayers' dollars right now to put these systems in place. So the general public deserves to have an opportunity to use this. It also provides the general public with the experience of using these things. And so it's an educational tool to develop the awareness of just how good these things really are so that they will embrace it and want to use it. So that- Building confidence. Building confidence in the product. Because right now, it's just nobody knows what it really is. They haven't had the experience you've had of riding on the bus and saying, wow, this is really quiet. This is great. You know, I love this, you know. So that's what it does. So there's a lot of anticipation for us to develop this and deploy these on the Big Island. By deploying the two buses at Volcano Park, they get over almost 2 million visitors a year at Hawaii Volcano National Park. So this is a great way to provide outreach, not just for Hawaii, but also nationally. And you've got educational materials that go along with the- Correct. Yeah, we'll have a very active outreach program once it starts. Now, you were here while we had the first part of the show. You heard John Sampierre and Petriona Resenchenko talk about their research at HNEI. I'm sure you know them. They must be in the same building. No, no, no. I had the honor of actually designing that building. That was my first part of the university. Yeah, but I office up at the Pennsylvania University. They're in the same organization. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And you know their research, of course. So how is their research going to affect your project? What do you hope to build into this whole bus system with that new technology, the new technology they are developing or enabling to make this happen? Yeah, well, one of the main focuses was on the effect of contaminants on fuel cells. So what we did is we designed a new air filtration system for the buses that will be operating at Volcano Park because they have a very high level of sulfur dioxide at the park. So it's like kind of an accelerated program, kind of the air like you'd find in Beijing, you know, China. So what we developed is what I characterize as a smart air filtration system. So what we do is we measure the level of contaminants coming into the air system before it enters the fuel cell. Then it goes through the filter. Then we have another set of sensors that measures the contaminants as it comes out of the filter before it enters your fuel cell. And if it reaches a certain maximum where it shows that your filter isn't hacking the job, it cuts it off and shuts down the fuel cell. So we change the filter. So we change the filter or as part of what we've developed is it can swap over to a brand new filter so that the bus can continue on going through this plume of high sulfur dioxide without killing the fuel cell. I hear you saying it's really bad to have the contaminants in there and it might damage the membrane in the fuel cell. Is that what it happened? Yeah, damage is the catalyst. Essentially it kills your fuel cell. That's the bottom line. And the degradation is very severe. So you don't want that. That's a thing you do not want to happen. That's an expensive one. Exactly. So we've actually submitted a patent for this. So it's still in process, but we've submitted a full level patent. So, you know, I actually thought you made some comment about that and I didn't realize how important it was. It takes air to run a fuel cell. And you've got to have good air. It can't be, you know, air with contaminants. Exactly. And a lot of air has contaminants. So you have to do this. Because this is going to be an enabler for technology around fuel cells everywhere. Killaway is a great place to test. We're working with a great partner with a U.S. hybrid who is actually now doing business in China. So we have a way to promote our technology and get it out in the marketplace and, you know, leverage UH technology and hopefully make money for the university, which is a good thing to do. Now, what about the membranes themselves? You're working on that, too. You're working on the essential nature of the fuel cell, the structure of the fuel cell. I don't personally work on that. He deploys. I deploy it and test it. No, I say you, I mean HNEI. Yeah. Yeah, we don't actually work on the membrane itself as developing new types of membranes. I mean, there's a whole industry out there that does that. But we look at what the effects are of the hydrogen contaminants and air contaminants on the performance of those membranes. Is this kind of what you call an experiment, I guess? It's kind of project being done elsewhere in the U.S. Are there other, you know, fuel cell buses running? Are there other people studying them the way you are? Probably not quite the way. We have a little bit of uniqueness. I mean, you have to be unique to be able to go out and win project money. But yes, they're, you know, for example, AC Transit in California has 12 full-size, 40-foot buses they've been operating for the last 10 years. And then you've got Sunline Transit in Palm Springs operating, I think, five or six fuel cell buses. So yeah, you have them all instrumented up and you take data and you analyze how long the system will last. So a little commercial for U.S. hybrid, they have one stack that's lasted over 25,000 hours and it's still going. That's impressive. That's impressive. Yeah. So there must come a time, or maybe it's a vision at this point, that every commercial vehicle, you know, whether it's government or private, whether it's a truck or a bus, any big commercial vehicle can and should run on hydrogen and fuel cells. Absolutely. What's the path between here and there? The pathway is actually to do what we're doing is get the demonstrations on the road to show industry that these things work and that they're not going to fail and they have the longevity. They last 25,000 hours. That's something. That's what you have to do to build the confidence because the guy running the business does not want to. So I rode over here in a cab and the cab driver is saying, yeah, those electric vehicles are great, but one of them just stopped dead in front of me in traffic. That's what you don't want to have that happen. So that's why we do these experiments and get lots of hours on the vehicle so that people have the confidence to make that investment. So for example, I'm working with the county of Hawaii bus agency, and what they want to see out of the bus that we're deploying with them is just that, is how long will it last? Will the passengers want to use it? All these kinds of things. How cost-effective it is. Just maintenance and repair is an element of cost, but taking that out for a minute, just in terms of running the bus down the road, is it cheaper? Can it be cheaper? Will it soon be cheaper to run a hydrogen fuel cell bus down the road than a gas bus? Like I said, the bus itself is twice as efficient as a diesel bus. The issue is the cost of the hydrogen, and the cost of the hydrogen, if you're making it from electrolysis of water, is the cost of the electricity that goes into it. So for example, if we were using our geothermal resource we have here in Hawaii, we can get pretty inexpensive electricity to do that. That would make it totally viable. If I'm taking electricity off the grid at 26 a kilowatt, a sense of kilowatt hour, that's not going to work. We need cheap electricity, electrical input. Near zero cost. Well, zero would be awesome, but there's no such thing as that. We'll think about solar panels on a roof somewhere. I thought you were going to... I thought you were going to say that when you began this morning. Well, I was at a meeting this morning where, just before I came over here, and they were talking about on the mainland for very large grid-scale PV installations, about 2.75 cents a kilowatt hour. That's getting close. That's there. We're there with that. So that's what we have to get down to here. We need to be about five or six cents a kilowatt hour for it to be viable. Sighting. Sighting possibility. But it's not necessarily... It's more than just economics. I mean, for example, we didn't go to light bulbs because light bulbs were cheaper. I mean, actually, well, all that kind of stuff was a cheaper way to get illumination, but it was the better technology because you didn't have sweat, you didn't have all these other benefits. If you have a little AA battery, the electricity in there is worth about $125 a kilowatt hour, but we use it because of the portability it gives us with our electronics that we have. You're in a great spot. This is a great thing. HNEI is in a great position worldwide, really, in terms of advancing this technology. And it's some really good work. Yeah. Mike, you want to summarize our discussion today as you will? Well, I mean, fuel cells, I think, hold great promise for the future, and the fact that they're doing both this sort of R&D work at HNEI as well as the deployment and testing of the technology is really doing both ends of the spectrum here. And it's what's going to make it work. Thank you, Mitch. Thanks for coming down. It's always nice to see you. There will be more right now soon. Yeah. Wait till I get the buses up and going. Then we can do a show on the big island. And thank you, Jean Saint-Pierre. And thank you, Tatiana Resniceko, for participating in the show. And thank HNEI in general. Now before we go, there's a certain announcement that it's important that we make. Mike? Yeah. We're coming up on Energy Policy Forum's 9th Annual Clean Energy Day. It's going to be August 28th at the Atlanta Kilaway. And this year, as we have in the past few years, we're going to be presenting transformational awards, the 2016-2017 Transformational Energy Awards in several categories. The nominations deadline is June 23rd, and the Energy Policy Forum will present those awards at the Clean Energy Day. So please go on the Hawaii Energy Policy Forum website, and that is hawaiienergypolicyforumatgmail.com. And the instructions and the forms are all there. And please do submit nominations for the 2016-2017 Transformational Energy Award. Thank you, Mike. Be there or be square, yeah? Yeah. It'll be a very important event that always is every year. Thank you, Mike Hamnett. Thank you. Thanks to all our guests today. And we'll see you next week with more on what HNEI. Yeah, we're going to study this subject. You can run with your crown jewel. Yeah. You are. Thanks.