 Yeah. And I'll make you host Darcy before I go. Okay, and. Um, does everyone have the ability to screen share? Yes, for any was able to check and make sure that hers was working before we began. Okay. Mandy Joe is going to need to also. Yeah, she's a panelist. So she should be able to as well. Okay, great. Thank you, Athena. You're welcome. Good evening. I'm Darcy Dumont. I'm calling the June 24th, 2021 meeting of the town's. Service and outreach committee to order. At. 631. Governor Baker's March 12th, 2020 order, suspending certain provisions of the open meeting law. Allow us to hold this virtual meeting. You can view the recording of the meeting on the town YouTube channel. I'm going to call each member by name at that time. We can confirm that we can hear each other. The brewer. Present. Yes, Evan Ross. President. George Ryan. Andy Steinberg. Very neat. Sorry. Yes. Hi. Great. Right. This is, this is very neat blanchard everyone. So I am looking at, this is a time for public comment. It. Looks like someone might be here. Let's see. It is time for public comment. If the public would like to. Give a comment, please. Hit the raise hand button. If the public doesn't look like public comment right now. Now. There's Paul. Hi. We're going to go right to our town manager appointments. And Paul has some recommendations about the conservation commission. Thank you. I just need to pull up the. So you have the memo in front of you. Sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry to set up. And so one is a reappointment of. Mr. Ames. And then we have an appointment. Of. The person's name. Michelle. Michelle. Yes. And I think of. Very strong appointment. Extensive experience in conservation area. It's a. It's a. Amers high school and a UMass Amers. Graduate with master's degree from UMass Amers. As well. Has. Is a. Does work for a nonprofit. And has. Just the skill set that she brings is just really remarkable. Used to working in a. and federal levels used to reading contracts and interpreting how regulations get applied has really strong environmental skills and science skills. It's just one of the strongest candidates I've ever seen for Conservation Commission. She looked very good. Any questions from the counselors? And just to add, she will be taking a place of Brett Butler who has served two terms and will be, you know, charming off. Okay, thank you. If there are no questions or discussion, I'll move. Oh, Alyssa. Oh, it's just a one of our clerical errors where Paul has already been advised. The section in the memo that shows the charter that says, you know, his authority to do this under the charter is also needing to have added to it the section that shows that we gave the notice to people, but it was just an old cut and just apparently, but that'll get I've asked that that be checked for further inclusion because obviously he's got even more of these coming forward to us, and he did include the actual notice to the public from the website so we're covered that way. So I will amend them just so I don't usually do cut and paste I'll amend this one and put a slight reference on it before it goes into the council packet. Thanks. Thank you, Paul. All right. If that is all I moved to recommend the town council to the town council the following town manager recommendation for appointment to the conservation commission for three year term experience June 30, 2024. Lawrence Ames, a reappointment and Michelle of a an appointment. Second that second. Okay, any, any more questions or discussion. All right, Alyssa. Hi, Darcy. Yes. Evan. Hi, George. Hi, Andy. All right. Okay, so that's a unanimous approval. I'll send that recommendation to the council, which I think will take it up on Monday. I am going to move agenda item four to after number five unless there's some big objection to it. That's the town manager report and update. Because we want to make sure that we have enough time for both their needs report and surveillance technology. So, Alfred, are you here? Yes. Just wondering if you, or, or Paul would like to just brief, you know, give a brief introduction to what the technical assistance grant was and introduced very neat. I could also do it if you want me to but I think it makes more sense for you to do it. Paul, Paul, Paul, would you like to do it? Okay. So we have very unique with us and she is actually the our Murph and our Murph but our EP representative for recycling in the western region. She has the job for one more day, I believe. And then she's moving on to bigger and better things. This is a grant we got, which is a services grant. There's no money involved. It's just time from DP. And what we did with it was we looked at other communities to see how they handle their waste streams and how they handle wasting their communities. We, we chose several and we agreed upon them and then she put together this little report but it basically covers what other communities are doing with their waste and possible things that we might be able to think about doing in the future. Bernie. Hi. Thank you so much for that, Guilford. Yes, so I am Bernie Blanchard. I am, as Gilbert said for one more day the municipal assistance coordinator with master EP for the western region which means I cover the four counties in western mass, anything to do with solid waste and recycling. So let me and thank you so much for having me here tonight this is a subject very near and dear to my heart. So let's see if I can do this properly. Okay. Looks like it's working. So yeah so this was a technical assistance grant that was asked for through the through Guilford the DPW and also through and with assistance from zero waste. At least to see here my clicker is there wasn't showing up. All right, this is working. All right, so the purpose of the study is to look at Amherst system right now what's happening with the system right now but also to research other towns, and see what alternatives might be able to be considered by Amherst in the future so right now the situation is that in Amherst you do have the transfer station, but you also have private subscription. So, the other way, other ways that you could structure your solid waste services would be either contracting directly with a hauler, or deciding to have the town take over the services themselves. So the whole goal here is to figure out what are the best practices that Amherst could adopt to reduce waste. So why do you look into zero waste in the first place well one of the big things is that it is an easy way to incorporate climate action strategies that will help a community to conserve. And you know here's just the typical sort of hierarchy first you want to reduce and conserve and encourage recycling and designing products differently and then reusing them and recycling them. And then hopefully you have very little to regulate and disposal. So, and I'm sure you all are familiar with these but this is when I was growing up it was the three yards, you know and they just expanded them phenomenally since then with all kinds of ours so basically the ideas do you do you really need it in the first place can you make do without it. Can you reduce the amount of reduce that you have waste that you create. Can you fix it can abuse or something else and then kind of be recycled or can you compost it. And my favorite old New England saying use it up wear it out make it do or do without. So, this slide is one of my favorites, this data comes from. There are six waste combustors in Massachusetts and DEP gets a, but they call waste characterization study from these combustors annually which basically just means that they send to DEP the data on what was in the trash that was brought to their facility. And if you look at this, it to me it's rather incredible because most of this stuff shouldn't be in the trash in the first place. Certainly we could deal with organics differently paper, you know shouldn't be in there if you can't recycle it it should be composted. This is probably one that's difficult because a lot of the plastics that are in here are plastics that simply aren't recyclable so that's one issue. Construction and demolition or C&D should be dealt with in a different way really but I'm not sure what's in the other, but we definitely should not have hazardous waste metal glass or electronics in the trash. To add up all these percentages you can see that there's a huge amount that should not be going into the trash in the first place. So why is it important to know what's in your trash well if you don't know what's in your trash you can't really know how to address it. And so, you know you need to know what's there so you can address each item and try to figure out how to reduce what's going into your waste stream. The goal is to obviously reduce the amount of trash and communities which have the highest diversion rates which keep the most trash out tend to be the ones which provide the most services to the residents either directly or indirectly through partnerships or some other So I meant to say before I started that if I throw out some jargon here and and there's a term you don't, you know, understand, which of course we all tend to do in government right so please stop me and just ask me but this here is just an explanation of pay as you throw, there's also called smart which is save money and reduce trash. And the idea is that every person who is producing trash pays for the amount of trash they produce. For instance, you don't go into the grocery store and buy a bag of potatoes at five pounds for the same price as 10 pounds. So the idea is that the more waste you produce the more you're going to pay for it. And I just wanted to point out here that mass DEP does have funding to help towns, starting any kind of pay up pays you throw program. And if you have questions about the grants later I'm happy to ask those two. So, why is the pays you throw so important. Well, I'm about to show you a couple of slides on how much we throw away in Massachusetts. So you can see that the numbers there is for towns that don't have any kind of limit on the trash that can be thrown away. The typical amount is 1646 pounds per household per year. For towns that do have some kind of waste reduction program, it's down to 1086, which is a difference of 560 pounds or almost a 35% reduction in solid waste so you can see that pays you throw really does reduce the amount of trash that makes them think about it right you know you're going to pay for how much you get rid of. So you, that kind of forces people to think of other ways to deal with it. So this we're they're about to come out with the 2020. And for those of you who deal with this kind of information this is when the towns report to us on their solid waste and recycling surveys annually the towns who participate in mass TV programs that report to us. So this is where you know this is where we get all this data from and you can see that the bright red is kind of like the worst and the green is the best so we're pretty good out here in western mass. And I don't have sorry I can't even read here how much Amherst is apologize I can't get close stuff. And then you can see here how many, how many communities in Massachusetts have already adopted pays you throw which is quite a few. So, now, in the beginning I was saying that the current program that you have is private subscription, which means that everybody picks your own holler. And the thing that's happened recently is that all the hollers were the other hollers were bought up by USA and now you just pretty much have USA for your residential pickup. There is. And you know so you have a lot of multi families and apartments here which I'm sure you already know your transfer station serves 2340 households out of the households within Amherst. And you do have on the books right now. A Board of Health regulation that was approved in 2014, which states that the waste hollers that operate in town must offer residential commercial customers recycling services and a unit based user fee system by waiter volume. And that unit based really does pretty much mean the same kind of thing as we're talking about is pays you throw or a waste reduction program, because they're supposed to be charging for the size of the container. Now enforcement is, I don't know if that's actually happening at the moment I don't think so because of some anecdotal evidence that I've heard, but the enforcement can be done according to this regulation by the town or the Board of Health, the police So these were the towns that were selected to research. And here I have what type of service they provide to their residents so you can see, it's a mix all over. Some were contracted for recycling and did municipal trash somewhere municipal for recycling and private subscription for trash somewhere just straight contracted to the hollers some were all municipally run. And then Portland which is so big was a residential franchise where the city is split up into sections in each section is is contracted out to a different company. So what are we've been through this, pretty much but the best practice in trash reduction is doing some sort of pays you throw program. The limit of 35 gallons or less per week that's kind of like the gold standard and certainly what DP is looking for. So you can see some of the programs here that's what they do they. They do provide different size carts or gallons and you pay according to the size of the part so So what one thing I want to back up I apologize I should have said this earlier I believe in your packet you will have some information that I don't know if you can see this probably not okay there they're all information sheets on each of the towns that I research so In this presentation it's just kind of an amalgamation of it, but you can go back to all of these individual towns in Arbor or Austin or Burlington and look up in depth the information that's provided here for later on. So the best practices in recycling are that you provide recycling for free that you give people unlimited capacity free containers. And I will say here that dual stream does 10. Okay, let me let me back up just to make sure everybody understands dual stream is when you have paper and cardboard in one container and bottles and cans and the other. And single stream is when it's all mixed together. It does tend to produce a cleaner, less contaminated product in dual stream. But there are reasons for using one or the other. And here are some of the programs that, you know, and a lot of them if they have it mandatory that was also really important. And you can see the size of the carts are, you know, tend to be large. So, that's the best practice for recycling municipal and private and then in contracted it was the same, it was the same thing basically the more capacity you give people. The less capacity they can recycle and the less they're going to throw away. So for organics. In organics, we are considering yard waste as well as food scraps and compostable products. They tend to not be put together in the same heart. In most of the programs that I saw all of the towns that were surveyed. Most had drop offs for yard waste, which is basically leaves grass and brush. And some towns also collected a curbside. So that was pretty much a given which is nice to see, but there were also quite a few that collected food scraps at the curb and that's really huge when we were looking at that trash can of the different percentages of waste that was in there and organics is where the, the, the organics is such a huge part of it that if you can get that out that will reduce your trash by a great amount and just to mention Burlington. Vermont has passed this universal recycling law which you may or may not have heard of but it's, it bans all food scraps from the trash so the entire state now has banned that. So I'll get a little later into the presentation about what we do in Massachusetts about that. So just here, here are some more that this is how they, they deal with their organics. If it can be put under the program and the resident doesn't, you know, necessarily pay directly. Of course, that's always better too. I don't know why but for some reason people don't seem to notice when it's in their taxes but if you know if it's separate they seem to notice so. And, and all the towns that were surveyed did provide organics except for summerville but they're looking into it. bulky wastes are also a big part of the way stream that needs to be managed. The community had some kind of outlet for these and sometimes these get picked up herb side sometimes they're to drop off center but it's really important to give people an outlet for those materials and they do tend to be charged for household hazardous waste if you're remembering back to that trash can this is another one, and another very important thing to keep out of the way stream, and every single one of the towns that survey surveyed did participate and I know Amherst participates in the Valley regional reciprocal arrangement for hazardous waste so that's great. There are any. No we pause and take a list this question. Oh I'm so sorry. I had that also I can see my, my screens. I apologize of course. It's really helpful and in fact you just sort of answered it in the last thing you said, one of the things I'm finding a little bit difficult to follow here is that we do a lot of these things already now obviously we don't do curbside composting of scraps but we're never mentioned on the charts as like what Amherst does versus all the other communities that were compared to. And so we do. We do a lot of these things, and I feel like I'm getting it presented as good people do these things and then there's Amherst. No, no, no, I'm sorry that. So when you can work in that part about like how we have that agreement. That's just incredibly helpful because it's obvious that you just have all this information at your fingertips so if you could just remind us because we may not all know all those details, especially since the haulers all got consolidated because people had different experiences in different parts of town depending on who they were used. So thank you so much for just reminding us like as you get to that oh yeah and what you guys do this. Right, right. You do I mean Amherst does have offer quite a few things and you have a transfer station which is a huge benefit. I think I would say probably the fact that it's private subscription and as such, the town has absolutely no control over what's happening for the residents with regard to the solid waste pickup that to me is something that you know that's kind of like the biggest piece of the puzzle in all in all honesty. So I think that's a really good conclusion before getting to that like 35% reduction by doing some kind of pays you throw or some kind of waste reduction program really would be huge for for managing waste. So and again you do have a transfer station, which is wonderful was one of the first ones I ever visited and I just love it. And a lot of these materials again if residents don't have a way to get rid of this, this is really important. All of us know that you know we all have these things in our homes and people are always trying to figure out how to get rid of them. So, it's it's really great that you have a lot of these offerings already in Amherst. And one of those options that really helps people in terms of keeping things out of the trash is reduced reuse and repair. I'm not sure how familiar any of you are with fix it clinics or repair cafes, but there are quite a few and I'm going to apologize here because I have a dog, very old dog and a cat in my lap. She's about to bark. Yes, sorry. I'm sorry she's very old that's hard to get her. I've heard that a lot of the places that were considered you know exemplary for getting as close to zero waste as they can, all had some kind of repair or reuse events going on. And that's something that I think is is really important to I don't know if any of you have ever heard of the ones North Hampton runs but they do have one at the Smith vocational school, which I don't, they may be doing it virtually but it's been a person for a long time. And a lot of these are actually since coven a lot of these are actually being done now just online as another option for people. So that's something to look into. And outreach and education, you know it's funny because so often we're all aware that everything needs to have outreach and education, and we all talk about it but then actually developing a program for how you're going to be able to know about things is absolutely key. Once you've made a decision about what you're doing or what your goals are. It's so important to actually have a plan of how you're going to educate your people. And one thing I wanted to mention and that I learned this over the last 10 years is that every year that goes by. I think it's a consensus that it takes more and more repetitions of information for people to actually get it. What's being said to them. I think it's because we're bombarded every day with so much information. We had done some radio ads ads through the Murph advisory board, and we were coached on how many times we had to repeat those radio radio ads before people would even have it sink in. So I just wanted to mention that I know as government officials we tend to feel like well we've put the information out why aren't people getting it but I wanted to make the point that repetition is it may seem like it's overkill but it's not. And one of the other big things that I think for moving forward if Amherst chooses to go in this direction is this picking a goal and deciding what what your goals will be and then actually codifying it put it putting it into some kind of plan. Most of the communities that I researched did have some and some huge documents that really spelled out everything that they were doing to try to reduce waste and to recycle. So even if it's just starting with, I mean you would have you have a mandatory recycling, I believe, because you were using the the Springfield Murph. I'm trying to really consider and I don't know which group it is in Amherst now that would be. I know. Guilford maybe you can tell me there was the reuse and recycling or whatever group and I can't remember how that ended up. There is no committee right now. There isn't. Okay. Okay. All right, yeah I knew was they were talking about restructuring it when Amherst got restructured but in any case that's that's something I would I would look at is is once you decided upon the goals to definitely codify what it is you you plan to do and outline it. So everybody understands and partnerships are actually something that I found really interesting with a lot of the towns. In some of them there were very strong nonprofits that have been started back you know 40 years ago. And I think the residents who were involved with this nonprofit that was working on recycling and other issues, kind of helped push the needle so to speak with the government by basically sort of showing them how to do it and then they developed partnerships between the nonprofit and the government and would, you know contract out to this nonprofit these services. We don't necessarily have that right here right now. And a lot of the partnerships were between the city and the county but that's definitely something that's worth exploring, particularly in, you know, regionally there might be a few towns nearby that are interested in in working on compost together or there might be a number of issues where, you know, working together, excuse me regionally would help sort of share and shift the burden a little bit and create great programs. And then there were some really interesting financial mechanisms that I saw here and basically there. There was a version of levying a fee that everybody paid for, and then that money was used to fund solid waste services. And let you know for instance just to pick this one here, Burlington has the solid waste generation tax at four dollars and eight four per household per month and that generates an awful lot of money for them to be able to use on these projects so I just thought that was an interesting way of looking outside of the just general taxation box and enterprise funds of course are used often for trash services I used to be in South Hadley we had an enterprise fund, and we had a trash fee that covered everything that both the transfer station and the curbside pickup. So, just some interesting financial alternatives. So, the way Massachusetts in just in case you all are not aware of this the way Massachusetts deals with keeping things out of the trash is not actually by telling you we don't have a mandatory recycling law in Massachusetts. We have waste bands, basically meaning that you just can't throw it away. And these were the ones that started. They started in 1990 and here are the basic ones so right here which says single resin narrow neck plastic, you know containers I guess it is I can't see right now. That's basically your, your bottles right. So, but it's interesting that the language that they have in here but so these are the things that are actually banned from being disposed of in Massachusetts. So, the DEP has been working on their draft solid waste master plan they produce one every 10 years which states their goals and, and plans for the next decade. They're, they're done with the draft and I believe they're done with all the comment period so now we're just waiting for the final to come out. They've proposed a band. Sorry, hang on a second I'm just trying to look here. Okay, so that they proposed these three bands, one to be just altered and two new ones. Right now we do have a waste band if somebody, a business or whoever produces more than a ton of weaker food that has to be composted and they're considering moving it to a half ton per week. Or that's what's in the, in the draft solid waste master plan. And also they're going to add in mattresses and textiles. You know, more programs to think about in the future, when, when this does become effective, then everybody's going to have to have a way to actually recycle these and not throw them away and expand any kind of textile program that you might have. There are quite a few companies that are increasing their presence in Massachusetts because of these things. And those are just some things to keep in mind for the future but that of course will be great because it'll be recycling things that would be going into the trash and textiles it just amazes me how much actually gets thrown into the trash, it's, it's a little strange but so just a reminder that those are the things we're trying to keep out. And, you know, so we went through a lot of these materials. There's already things that just shouldn't be in there. So, in terms of, oops, I'm sorry. I was trying to click on my screen here. So, just the summary here and I'm not going to read through all of these for you again because I'd really rather get to questions and, and see what is on people's minds but actually it's everything that you can do here with your trash to do pays you throw, give as much recycling as possible. Try to get organics taken care of your bulky waste your increasing your recent repair. So, yes, so we went through all of these. All right, so there's the conclusions if the goals to promote, promote solid waste reduction. If you had either a municipally run or a contracted service it would provide you the most control and reaching that goal again as I mentioned earlier because right now, it's private subscription so Amherst has nothing to kind of hold on to to say, so we have to have our residents recycle and compost and reduce their trash. So, there's a couple of what you know if you if you were to go into that, I guess my suggestion would be to go out to bid first just because there's a lot of information that Amherst does not have for instance how much is currently collected by USA, and how many trucks would it take and the roots and all that sort of thing so you know it's just a suggestion but you could do it as a as a contract for a few years, and then decide to move into municipally run if that's what Amherst chooses to do. I, you know, I think the transfer station is wonderful and it would really be essential to keep that going and maybe even include some extra items of the transfer station. And then of course enforcement and education and contract management will be the key to success. So, I believe that's it I will stop sharing and see if anybody has any questions. Thank you that was great. Why don't you go ahead and directly call on people very Nick. I see Alyssa and Andy's hands up. Oh, okay. All right. Alyssa, I don't know who with their hand up first I'm sorry. Thank you that's awkward isn't it. Could you tell us a little more just based on all your experiences working with all these different folks. I stopped having our own trash hauling. I don't know how many decades ago. We generally do not want to start having more town employees. That's kind of a rule of thumb. So, are you familiar with any and I know some people said well but that's the obvious solution to all this but do you have any experiences or could point us at any particular places that said they did the same thing like they stopped having municipal trash because they moved to private haulers and they moved back because it's really hard for me to just look at this as even a possibility without some sense that it's actually defectively someplace else to have moved back into the municipal way into the municipal I honestly I can't tell you I don't know if that happened in Holyoke or not we there aren't all that many communities here or chickpea that that do a municipally run. And again that's one of the reasons why I think contracting might be the way to go to start because you haven't done it. It, to be honest, I didn't realize Amherst did have their own municipal program way back when so. But if it hasn't been done in that long, you know I just think there are a lot of kinks that could be worked out through a contract first. Obviously that's the decision for Amherst to make I can't really recommend it I can say that I think in order to reduce your solid waste. The best thing to do is either to do it yourself or to contract it out. Because otherwise I do just you're not you're not going to have the control. And if you bid it out you know, it might be interesting to see just how many companies came to the table. Because there are plenty around, you know, and just to give the example of South Hadley you know they, they do contract it out. And I have seen, for instance in Agawam, the woman who runs the program there. When she put out her RFP, I think she had like six or eight options that she put in there for the bid. Like the town said okay these are all the different options we want you to consider. And they had to give a quote for each of the six or eight options which was really interesting so they could compare, you know how much it was going to cost them so really it comes down to deciding I would say deciding what services do you want to see happen, and then figuring out how you're going to get there. Sorry. Yes, hi that was a great presentation so thank you. And I guess I have to go back to Alyssa's just out of curiosity because I've lived here for 40 years and we were offered two different private hauler contracts when I moved here so it certainly has been a long time. But because it had to be more than 40 years that we've, since we've had the town pickup. But my questions aren't about that because that's an internal thing here. The towns, the cities that have municipal or contracted services. If it is paid for by inclusion and taxes. I have. So the people aren't otherwise charged for like through an enterprise fund. There are some problems with understanding how it can possibly work in Massachusetts to go on to such a system, because of proposition to that, if you're running at your pretty much where your tax rate can be. If you're trying to maintain services then to add on an additional service of that size is a fairly significant expense, and to be able to do it without going to voters for an override in order to increase their taxes. It just seems like it would be a difficult thing to do so. Are you familiar with any Massachusetts communities that have made that switch in recent years. Honestly, no, I might be able to direct you to my colleagues to see if they have any of that data. But, and I, and I recognize that trying to do an override is, you know, pretty difficult. But the difference in cost you could show that the difference in cost per household of a contracted service would be a lot less than what they're already paying. I do recognize that a lot of time people just don't understand about taxes and they don't see like the dollar amounts they see. In other words, they wouldn't be able to say equate in their heads, particularly well but okay well if I pay an extra 280 in my taxes. That's a lot better than the $500 I'm paying right now for my private subscription. But I think, you know, that's a way to present it to show, you know that in the long run you're saving because now you're not actually paying that 500 out of pocket you're just giving it to the town, but I understand the difficulties with that so but I could try to contact my, my colleagues and see if they know if any that have made the switch in recent years. Yeah, I mean if somebody has would be helpful because I'm at least somebody to reach out to the municipal leadership in those communities. Because I think that there's the additional problem in that is trying to figure out what you're doing with rental properties and trying to sell it to people who are living in rental properties, because they may not gain the benefit if. You have to decide that you're going to be picking up their trash and you're going to somehow be able to show them that it's going to cause a reduction in their rent. And how do you get the system and that one. Yeah, and that that's really the, the, the property owner that it's on anyway and you don't know what the rental agreement is most of these programs are done. The typical thing is one through four units, and then it's, you know, if they decide to expand into others that's kind of later down the road. So it would probably be. I mean it's, it's more common to have a contract where what the contractor picks up or one through four you know single duplex and three and four unit households, but again that's something you could decide in the contract. And though that's difficult to do if you know of any communities or when you're doing your research the other question that would go with that is whether anybody knows of an enterprise fund arrangement where there's a required payment for homeowners to go to pay into an enterprise fund. That's sort of sideways to my next question, which is, if you do that kind of a system where people are paying through their taxes. You lose your incentive for people to use the transfer station recycle center. So I don't know that it wouldn't have the effective destroying that asset that the community has. Well I can give you the example of South Hadley which had it had has an enterprise fund. And in the fees that when the select word there when the landfill closed and they knew they had to do something. They already had a transfer station. And the landfill closed the select word decided that they would institute three fees and they did within they already had an enterprise fund Institute three fees within in within the enterprise fund. One was for the curbside one was for your sticker to get in the transfer station and now of course I'm blanking on what the third one was. You were pretty clever about Oh, I guess. No, it wasn't the cost maybe it was the bags, the people had to pay the bags that might have been the third one. Just a cost but anyway, and they were kind of clever about it because the first year when they still had money coming in from the landfill they did this before it closed. All the fees were set to zero and they just sort of kind of. But with that kind of program you have to have an opt out because it's a separate, you know, system and that legally you just have to have an opt out so people, if they wanted to opt out of it, they had to prove to South Adley that they had some other hauler they were paying. But then they couldn't use the transfer station because it was all linked as one program. So I guess that's the point I'm trying to get at is you could link them all together. And then what people pay for gives them access to both the curbside and the transfer station. And there's one other question that I have and I guess I should tell you that I actually have some familiarity with some of these issues, because before we became city form of government in our town. Lisa and I were on the select board. So that, and I was the select board liaison to the refuse recycling management committee, which you referred to before. And I remember that committee doing a lot of thinking about composting. One of the things that we ran into and we started looking at composting through that committee was that there really weren't any major composters for Western Massachusetts and it was hard to convince at that point. Amherst trucking in to so who are the ones who are the, at that point, the trash haulers, they were willing to do it if there was a place that they could take it but there wasn't any place to take it. And I've talked and I talked to our friends in North Hampton and they were running into the same problem. And I looked at the list that Darcy provided in the packet that was a list of all the recyclers are being used by communities. There were none in the valley. They were all elsewhere. So I'm a little bit wondering whether there's still have that problem that we don't really have a solution to what I consider to be the major need unless somebody comes along. It decides to be a major compositor for this region. So Darcy was that the map that from DEP that shows, I think that the valley. The facilities in the valley were on the third page so there were there were a bunch of them listed, including Martins and there were 60. Right there was. Well that wasn't an anaerobic digester but there's also what's the one that's right in North Hampton the valley recycling or whatever they accept compost as well. So, and I think I mean it's true that's you know that's the chicken and the egg and I believe this is part of the reason why DEP is going, you know has been promoting the, the food ban of one ton per week and now a half ton per week to help drive. So that there are more outlets. But yeah of course that has been a problem in the past but I believe there's a capacity out there. Yeah, I think I think I think you would be able to find a place to take it and USA will pick it up for you right now for an extra fee. So, George. That's what they do for me. I mean my trash every week is for three adults is a small trash bag. Generally speaking because everything else goes into that composting, and they come and pick it up every two weeks. Now you're right, they do charge a fee, but I am that may be an issue going forward but it certainly works. Do we have any other questions. Kevin. Yeah just this was all really interesting and I look forward to the committee being able to talk about this further. On pay as you throw right and we do sort of have some version of that with the transfer station but not with curbside. I'm always, you know that's one of those things where you charge more money for something that we don't want to incentivize people to do less of the thing we don't want, which generally makes sense but I know also sometimes there's equity concerns when it comes to low income households who maybe just naturally generate more trash because they're not bringing their, you know, canvas bags to Whole Foods. So I guess I'm wondering if in any of the communities that that was incorporated or considered in some way of what do you do with lower income households who who maybe that would impact negatively. I honestly did not see anything specific about that but I can tell you that that is coming much more to the forefront everywhere now for good reason. As a matter of fact, DEP's grants that came out this year they have a whole list of what they call EJ environmental justice communities that kind of get a break on applying for the money because of their demographics or whatever. But that's certainly something that you know you can discuss and and talk about I don't know if you could do something like you do with what is it 41 C's or whatever that you know sometimes you give a discount to certain seniors I mean that's all an internal discussion about how, how you want to structure it. But it's a good point. Yeah. Thank you. Yeah. Good point. Any other questions or thoughts. I would just say that I know I've been working with zero waste amherst and you know one of the one of the primary concerns they have is just taking taking compost out of the trash stream because of the, the vast reduction in the trash, but the second piece of that is what you then do with the compost, you know where it goes. Is there any possibility of amherst creating a revenue generating compost facility. What do you think about that Gilbert. It's possible that we would have to have some investment to get up and running, but as long as you're willing to invest the money into it you could make a facility to do it. Yeah, I know that there's a regional group now between Amherst Northampton and Hadley which actually very unique facilitated getting it going. And that whole group is going to take a field trip to Martin's farm coming up sometime in the near future and that that's quite an operation they have quite a, you know they have some interesting equipment that they use to process the compost and then, then they sell it. So, anyway, that that's also something that, at least I'm interested in, you know, making sure that either our compost goes to someplace like Martin's farm, or, or we figure out how to compost here right in Amherst. If we if compost were included in basic service, we would be generating a huge amount more than we are now, because it would be all the households and the restaurants and so on. So we might it might make sense to do something right here in Amherst. Andy. I'm pointing out to Darcy that actually there is a facility locally that that its university does do its own composting. And I think that they pull virtually everything from the dining halls and do their own composting, use it for their own gardens and raise a lot of their own produce that they use in the dining halls. Yeah, no, that's fantastic. I'd also like to point out that when it comes to the businesses in town. There's a wonderful program through recycling works I don't know if you've heard of them but it's a program that's funded through DEP but run by the Center for Business. And they give free assistance to businesses and institutions for figuring out how to set up compost programs. The business or institution has to reach out to them. But if you advertise that that you know to to your commercial entities in town, they could get free assistance with figuring out how to begin composting. So I would like to move toward wrapping this up because we have another big topic coming up. But if people don't object, I'm kind of assuming that you know we this was our first presentation and discussion and we'll maybe look forward to hearing more about it in July or August with and maybe getting some type of proposal. And that is yet undetermined. But I really want to thank very unique very much for giving us the presentation and looking into those nine communities and, and hopefully we'll also have time to look at the summaries for each of the towns and look more at South Hadley which obviously, you know, has a has a system that we might Thank you. Thank you. Darcy one other question quickly. What was the story behind the Smith paper that was in the material. Oh, Smith. Yes, I'm sorry I didn't even mention it. Yeah, zero waste Amherst sort of facilitated Smith, a Smith capstone project, and they, they were some seniors at Smith that looked that compared to the current system, the subscription system with the contracted out system, and it does have a lot about financials in there. I highly recommend looking at it. So was it didn't, it didn't look at municipally provided services it just was comparing what we currently have with contracting out and ended up with a recommendation for contracting out. So, but yes, I, please, please take a look at that. We can't get them to present because they already graduated and left. But wasn't it recorded. Did we have the recording for that. We do have the recording we could, we could also shoot that yes, if people are interested. So, thank you. Thank you for mentioning that Andy, and very neat was was a part of that also. Okay, so we thank you, a very neat. Thank you if you don't mind I'll bow out then if I'm already. I have a number so if there are questions just feel free. Okay, all right, thank you. Thank you. So, 728 will move to Mandy job. I'm going to present further on the surveillance technology by law. Thank you. And thanks for having me pack could not be here tonight. So, you got me. And I just want to talk about a few things it's been a while since we've been here and chatted about surveillance. There's a couple of changes to the bylaw since the last time. I think some of the changes that you saw last time are still marked as changes I was just trying to remember but again it's been a couple months so I'm not quite sure the two changes I know are new. I did two things between the last time and this time we reached out to some counselors in Cambridge and we heard back from one of them to try and get some answers to some of your questions and I'll go through that and we also reached out to Paul. And he re looked at the bylaw and he gave us some concerns that we hopefully have addressed a little bit and I'll talk first about the concerns that we tried to address in the bylaw. And I'll go through those concerns and the first one is a change as I page through is one that is in section D surveillance technology impact report and surveillance use policy submission, and he was looking at the what needs to be contained in the report and one of the concerns. What got to us was the fiscal costs of the surveillance technology and that it's really hard to detail the personnel costs of something. And so he asked that we exclude the personnel costs that you know purchase costs ongoing subscription costs all of that's really easy to come up with but personnel costs can be a lot harder. And so we've modified that section of the bylaw to exclude personnel costs as part of the impact report. And the change from that he requested that we have agreed to is the. It's now not titled the annual surveillance report is now called a town department surveillance report because he asked that it not be required annually, that it be required only upon request by the town council, and because it would require a lot of staff time to create it yearly and and wasn't sure you know I don't want to put words in his mouth but wasn't sure whether the council would actually want it yearly. And so he asked that it be required only upon council request, and that it be required no more often than 12 months so we've changed that in section G to to sort of go with that that it's only upon request and therefore it didn't make sense to call it an annual surveillance report so we made up a new name. And so you'll see that name changed throughout. I think all the other changes were there the last time you looked at the bylaw. And but if you have questions on those changes I'm happy to discuss those and to talk about some of the comments you had a lot of questions about how Cambridge has been affected by this bylaw. They've had it in effect now about two years and two and a half years or so and so we reached out to a counselor. I've been in contact with on other things and asked about how the approval process works, you know the amount of staff time, whether the exigent circumstances exceptions and warrant exceptions have been used. So the annual surveillance report and any problems encountered. And so the response was that the approval process, each department would submit their own impact report to the council. And that this counselor indicated that they range from very straightforward things like water meter readers to not as straightforward like a shot spotter technology that the police department might be using, and that so the more straightforward ones tend to sail through a council, the shot spotter ones those a little more detailed ones get a lot more questions, but the counselor had no belief that any technology has ever been put down. So, so this counselor believed Cambridge has approved every single technology brought in front of it, although various counselors have voted against any one technology. And counselor didn't know the staff time. The counselor referred us to someone at Cambridge we never received a response from that person at Cambridge to the, you know, the counselor we refer to the city manager's and we reached out to them and we never received a response regarding staff time. Since the counselor did suspect since some departments have a lot more technology than others that it would vary by department significantly. And counselor was not aware of the police ever using the exigent circumstance exception or the warrant exception. And that at the time it's only been an, you know, effect for a couple years but they had no awareness of that. And in terms of the annual surveillance report the counselor indicated that it's useful to get a sense of the scope of the surveillance technology in the city. And it gives the counselors chance to ask questions about the technology and how that technology is used, citing specifically a use on school buses. And what the counselor said specifically is that you get a lot of information in that report so it can be tough to do all of the information justice. And so it really just ends up focusing on one or two specific things. And the problems, any problems encountered after adoption of the oversight requirements and the counselor indicated the niche, the issues they've noticed so far are just setting expectations for how much information is expected in the impact reports. And some departments are more thorough than others. And so, and as usual, counselors disagree on how much scrutiny, anything needs to be done and how much information they really do want. And so that's more of the issues is just trying to set up a system where everyone's providing the same amount of information and the counselors are on board with what that is. The counselor did say when asked whether they believe it achieved the goals of protecting civil rights and liberties. They believed it did. That it definitely gave an opportunity for the council to discuss the technologies and ask questions about how certain technologies are going to be used. And before, and so provided a forum for those discussions whereas prior to this ordinance there weren't really any forums to discuss those matters. And so that's the information we got. I think that was to most of the questions you guys had asked last time. So I'm happy to take any questions at this time. I have a question manager. Through the the bylaw itself. Section C1C said says that the town manager may apply an upgrade. It's necessary to mitigate threats to the town's environment, which I probably could have asked about the last time you were in front of us. I just wondered if you could give me an example of what that means. And what would be a threat to the town's environment. So I interpret that as mostly information technology, you know, where there's patches to the computer systems that might be used in surveillance to stop external threats from being able to access the systems in the town. And so that that would be my example. When I hear patch or upgrade you know where they the manufacturer has signed of a potential security flaw in the background programming and is trying to patch that programming that security flaw could threaten access to the system it could threaten use of the system, all of that that that's how I read it. Okay, and so it also says that the town manager then could determine that the use was unavoidable. Presumably because it was such a threat to the environment or something like that. So you can imagine a scenario where when face recognition technology or fingerprint technology first came out and and could be integrated into already existing systems that, you know, a computer technology firm would say hey you need to make this upgrade to better protect your systems. And we'd never had survey you know fingerprint technology before but it was that patch included other upgrades that also had vulnerabilities, but you couldn't separate the two patches, the upgrade to other vulnerabilities also included an upgrade to allow face recognition technology on their say on a computer and the town department would be able to install that patch even though it included a system technology that hasn't been approved, because the other technology attached to it is necessary for the upgrade and then potentially if you couldn't shut off the face recognition technology after that patch has been made. That's where this determines the uses unavoidable and then he still has to come to the town council. Patches, you know, software patches generally contain a lot of different stuff, sometimes not just one thing and you can't pick and choose always. Other questions or comments. Yeah, I have three questions, although two are related and forgive me if these are questions that I've asked, because as you mentioned it's been a while and I'm not as organized as you and cannot find my notes from the last meeting that we had about this. So, the statement that the time manager would need to have approval of a surveillance use policy prior to using new or existing surveillance technology for purpose so my interpretation of that is that if we pass this next month. Would that mean that the town manager if there's any surveillance use technology that's already in existence and being used would then need to very quickly submit to the council a whole bunch of surveillance reports before it. And would the use of that technology cease until he did that and the related question to that is, if the answer is yes. I'm concerned to the time manager, is there any technology that we're already using that would fit into that. So existing so I'm going to explain because you're talking about be one be the, you know, prior to engaging in using newer existing technology for a purpose or in a location not previously approved. So, you know, so nothing's been approved right but assume something has been approved and and say it's, you know, say it's a. It's a heat sensing thing or some camera, and that camera is used on a certain location, and they want to expand the location of use, you'd have to before you expand the occasional use potentially get approval. So that's what be is there is go down to its F section F is compliance for existing surveillance technology and so that is the section that applies for if this passes everything that's currently in use right now. That is the town manager did talk about a concern about approval and timing because that's going to be a lot of work initially. So this bylaw is written so that it does not become effective for 90 days after passage. So you get three months before it's even effective, and then F is the manager has 180 days to submit that request after that 90 days from the effective date not from the passage date so now we're at 200 and 70 days. The manager can request up to an additional 90 days on top of that. This is the way I did it following the effective date and so you've suddenly now got essentially a full year, potentially to get those initial requests in and in the meantime those technologies I believe we've written it so that they can still be used in the meantime. And then on top of that if we haven't approved the policy within 180 days of him submitting his stuff. They're automatically approved so it's a pocket approval not a pocket veto. So there will be a essentially from the date we vote there'll be a full year for the manager to potentially up to a full year nine months to 12 months to submit the applicable use policies for anything in use at the time we passed the bylaw. And, and I know the manager expressed concern initially with getting everything in when we explained that timeline he seemed to indicate that that would probably be sufficient I didn't get a direct answer from him. Paul's on now so he could probably give a direct answer but that that all of those months in our emails seemed to be okay, but I welcome his response to. I wasn't sure because and again forgive me because also as you are aware this bylaw is dense and so it's easy to read over something I hadn't seen an F anything that made it explicit that during that 180 day or one year period, the technology could continue to be used but perhaps I just read over which is very likely. And then my my second or third question depending on how you measure this is either for you or Paul, which is you would not you would point it out to changes that you had made to this bylaw at the request of the town manager. But if you use the phrase that you and Pat had agreed to and so I guess I'm curious, are there other changes that were requested that you did not agree to. I don't think so other than that timing issue I know he had mentioned that as a concern and we just went back with a description of what the timing was without changing any of the timing. But I think everything else Paul pointed out. We addressed. Yeah, thank you. Andy. You're still muted and he hit it twice. I guess that I still have some of the same concerns that I had before, because if we're going to recommend to the council. If there's something of this complexity. Then in the council is then going to expect it of our staff. We really have to have a threshold of what it is that we expect to be able to show to justify it to the community through the council, and generally, and to our staff. And has there been a series of complaints or actual incidents that people are concerned about, or is this operating out of fear and just seems like the right thing to do. So I can't answer the complaints issue because that would be within town hall. I wouldn't say it's operating out of fear. My original reason for proposing this is an operating out of a desire for absolute transparency on things that track people. And you know, Councillor Brewer forwarded to myself and Pat, a newspaper article from, I think it was Eastern Massachusetts that talked about a police department that started using drones to track and view into backyards and track suspects through the sky. And the town did not and the residents did not know of that use at all for, I think it was nearly a year. That concerns me that, that that could happen in Amherst, and I don't want that to happen in Amherst I think if we're going to start using things that track people. However, for whatever good reason we think they might be there. They might know about it. The people should know about it. And, and so that's, that's the basis behind that it's not that they might get misused per se I'm not, I'm not, I have not proposed this because I'm concerned that any technology that's out there that might be being used now as being misused, although there's always that concern when no one knows what even technology we've got that tracks people. There's more of a concern that we should know what technology is I think the year or so that we've been discussing this in TSO, when we've asked about what technology is out there that would fall under this. Even Paul's had a hard time describing what would fall under this which means we don't really know what technology this town has that is actually tracking people, or could be used to track people. And that concerns me. If someone asks hey am I being tracked. When I go into town hall what are you doing with all those cameras. No one has an answer to that. And that concerns me. And so this bylaw is meant to just bring out into the open what technology is out there that could actually track people and their daily lives. Shouldn't we start with that inquiry and do a department by department viewing of what it is that's out there to see if we have a problem before we start regulating a problem that may or may not exist. So, that was the question that was asked last meeting. And Pat and I spoke to Paul and had a meeting with Paul shortly after that meeting. And I'm trying to find that that meeting but at that point we had agreed that Paul would take three months to provide a subset of information set forth as requirements for inclusion and the annual surveillance report, and that the information that would be provided would be sections C and F on the attached bylaw. And when Paul got back to us after three months, what we got back was concerns about the initial inventory requests and permissions, and the annual report, and the concerns that I just said so you had asked for that information we had asked Paul to work on a subset of that. And what I've told you is what we got back regarding that subset. So, I don't feel we as sponsors can do any more than ask the town manager at the behest of TSO to provide that information. And it's up to the town manager to follow through with that request or not. And at this point, I guess my feeling would be unless this bylaw passes we will not get that information. And I guess Paul has a choice as to whether he wants to raise his hand respond. The other thing that I remember from our last discussion of this was that it seemed like there was a little bit of a laundry, because people who are very concerned about policing. We have many cameras. We're looking for expansion of technology, as we're sitting here talking about something to limit technology. And it strikes me that that creates a little bit of a conflict. I will continue to maintain that this is not necessarily a means of completely limiting technology it is a means of letting the public know what technology is out there and who can have access to it and when. And so it would not limit the ability of body cameras to be used yes the council would have to approve that use because that type of technology would fall under this bylaw. It is not an automatic no it's up to the council to decide whether the proposed use and all of the safeguards surrounding that use regarding access and use and everything are appropriate. The councilor and Cambridge said nothing. They've got shot spotter technology. They probably I don't know whether they've got body cams to but they haven't not approved any use at this point it's more of a transparency that we seem to not be able to get in Amherst, even with this proposed bylaw, having been proposed. Yes. So, I appreciate the counselors, Daniels and Hanna keep bringing the, the bylaw and we reviewed it with staff and we made comments on the bylaw. You know, I think what would be useful I think when Mr. Steinberg is talking about is, you know, well what is in the universe of this bylaw, and, or whether it's a good bylaw that was those were not questions that were posed. And so, but I think, you know, I did raise in my comments to the counselors some concern like, and it just sort of basic questions and I think it might be a good exercise for us to provide you. You know, for instance, we now have electric charging stations that collect data. Is that something that are on town property and is that something that we would need to go to the owner of an report and just sort of basic questions like is that what you're talking about or not. And so, and I'm just looking through the other comments. So I think that type of thing if maybe that's the next step for the TSO committee is like, Well, what are the level of technologies that could be addressed by this bylaw because it just it does change things are always adjusting and what and maybe do a quick inventory for for the council. So, if I may respond with all due respect, three months ago. You agreed to do that inventory Paul, and it was not produced in the three months it was agreed to be done on. And so, you know, I mean that was March 3. And so almost in July G for a CNF a CNF our description of how the technology has been used the summary of the complaints and statistics related to any public records request and none of that information has been provided despite you agreeing to do so within three months, and it's been three and a half now. Yeah, so you know the fun thing that we've been doing as part of this discussion is just like throwing out random pieces of technology and wondering if that qualifies, which is a useful activity. Whenever we do that I always go back to the definition listed in the bylaw and so Paul's example of electric charging stations I don't think would qualify because it is not collecting information capable of being associated with any individual, but then you also notice that the definitions as individual or group and so I guess I'm just curious just for Mandy, really quick when you were thinking group do you mean demographic group like what I first I've always had in my head that it's information about a specific identity, the information has to be identifying information about an individual to qualify but now I'm wondering if maybe that's not the case based on the addition of group. And to address the parking one there are you got to also look at be right I did whatever be and you could argue that parking access and revenue control systems, well that's not the charger I mean, depending on how you think of it the chargers are parking lots where you're paying to park to. To answer the other question I'm trying to go back to it designed or primarily intended to do so. So you got to go to back to designed and or primarily intended to collect information specifically associated with individual or group so group, you know, we pulled that definition from probably Cambridge, or the ACLU. So I guess group probably is more to go with an individual as one person. A company is not, you know, and so I would say on an initial response that group is meant to capture not just, you know, to capture potentially companies, you know, tracking of non individuals. But you could also say you know what, sometimes those drones are bought in order to monitor protests and protests political protests with groups is a group designed to specifically track information of a group that group is a group of certain political ideology if that's what you're trying to use that technology for. So I apologize for not finding my notes from the last meeting until Mandy Joe picked me to a date and it really was way back on February 25. When we talked about how it was that we could get this information, basically, much the equivalent not exactly equivalent of what was for a few minutes and annual report, but do it now, because it was going to be useful to get some information that also informed the budget. And so that was back at the TSO meeting of February 25. And Evan wondered why I what my rationale was for asking for it and you know we went back and forth. And basically, I thought the just was and what Mandy Joe expressed earlier is this isn't a matter of saying what parameters does the town council want to put on this or what does TSO and put on this we already said what we wanted. We didn't get what we wanted. So, and it didn't inform the budget this year. So, where are we now, because I don't want to sit down and say, Well, the parking pay by space machines yes the electric chargers no, I just want to know what you think meets the parameters of the bylaw because that's the data we think is important to have and I said, then, and I'll say again now, if that's the data that's important to have then we should attempt to put it together. Now, and that would be informative as to whether or not we're defining it correctly, but we're having a chicken egg discussion now that doesn't make sense to me given the conversation we had back in February. And we attempted to work that out with the manager. And, you know, from a sponsor point of view. Yeah. I guess I would just say I'm tired of waiting we had an agreement it didn't happen and I'd ask TSO to just move forward with this recognizing that it may not happen unless this bylaw is passed. Andy. Um, just so I'm a little bit cautious about putting too much pressure on Paul and other administrative staff in the last period between February and now in pretend that nothing has happened like major litigation over the library continued to the pandemic development of the budget, all of the work that's been going on because of that with police department and the community responder program. So, I do think we need to be reasonable people as we do this and I'm not sure that criticizing that something hasn't been done since February 25, when so much has happened since February 25 is really unfair, and we have a duty to be fair. So I'm concerned about you're saying that second thing is that I'm all we keep coming back to but Cambridge did it but Cambridge did it. I am sort of tired of Cambridge comparison, because that was what was thrown out by the percent for art people and lots of other people. But Cambridge did it though and it came to participatory budgeting but Cambridge did it. Cambridge is not a comparable community. It is so wealthy. It has no taxes and high revenue and has the ability to do something that other communities can't do effectively which is the differential tax rate between commercial and residential so that they have this huge budget without burdening their budget. So I don't find that always going but Cambridge did it makes for a good thing and I sort of get grumbly about that after a while, fairly obviously because I've just turned it about three different projects now and the best thing is an entirely different thing and that is that the Park Mobile. We really need to understand that technology fairly quickly to understand it to know whether our staff has access to the data and an ongoing basis about who parks where and how frequently, because if you're going to say that availability data that can be used, that's fairly high on the list if you're going to go that route. So those are just three quick comments. I'd like to respond quickly as the item, the data that was requested that we sought to get an agreement with the manager for when we sat down with the manager in early March the manager originally proposed a one month response time, and I responded and said that seems very quick. Let's put three months on it so we actually extended the timeframe beyond what the manager originally wanted to have as the response and we've been waiting patiently for three months and we did not do it. As for Cambridge I absolutely agree with you we are not equivalent to Cambridge. I did not do this and propose this because Cambridge has it I did it because I believe we need it, and this committee has asked for comparative data and the only town city commonwealth that we can compare to when asking about how this actually works in implementation is Cambridge so that's why I keep bringing up Cambridge not because we need to follow their lead, but because when asked, how does it work other places Cambridge is our only comparison right now, but I did this, not even I'm not even sure I realized when I officially originally thought about proposing this that Cambridge had adopted it. Thank you. So, I guess this is a question for committee so we have been talking about this for a very long, I think since last summer. It's changed quite a bit between the first time we saw it and now but my assumption is it's not going to change very much further if at all. And so, I guess to me, we're at a point where we did ask for some information. I believe to that information. The sponsor has asked us to move forward without it. And so we're at a decision point of, do we want to continue waiting and asking for that information and hold off on a recommendation back to the council until we have that. So what do we feel as though we're nearing the point that not necessarily this meeting but perhaps the next meeting or so forth of making a recommendation so that's more of a question for the committee but I'm trying to, which I think is what Alyssa was also getting at and heard last statement of. So what is our next step we didn't get the information we wanted. Do we keep waiting. Do we make the recommendation but where are we as a committee. That makes sense for us to talk about that. I just would like to make one comment since I haven't said anything yet. And that is, you know, it, I believe that that Mandy Joe and Pat have come back at least three times. They had made amendments to the bylaw and and have accommodated different requests that the town manager has has asked for, and has really changed the bylaw quite a bit to make it more accommodating in general for the town. It's easier, less administrative burden. And, you know, I personally am ready to act on it, especially if we don't think that we're going to get those answers. So, you know, I feel like it's, you know, looking at Cambridge. The, you know, the, the Cambridge city council approved all the different uses. And I said to myself well, you know, they approve them all and why are we even doing this. But to me, it's, it's preventative. Like, just the fact that the bylaw exists will make the town manager and department heads and so on think about what kind of tech technology they're, they're moving toward. And so, I think that there's a great value in having it. Regardless, and you know, it may be that the technologies that we get will be approved, but at least we'll know what's going on. And we'll have it that check where the town manager and the department heads know that this is what they'll have to go through if they ask for such and such a technology. Yeah, I appreciate trying to get to, you know, where are we going with this and, you know, obviously everyone knows I'm fierce and we asked for things I asked for things I got agreement that others asked for things that I thought the co-sponsor should have brought to us in the first place. And I was frustrated then I'm like, why don't you heard from Cambridge why don't you have more information about what you're already doing. And they went off and they obtained that information to the best that they possibly could because there's only so much control that they have over things. I was holding on to this in TSO because I wanted us to be able to explain it fully to the counselors who hadn't heard their multiple presentations and seen how it evolved over time. Because right intent versus words on paper can be hard to communicate sometimes. It is a new Massachusetts thing just even though it's a huge thing in many places. And so I wanted to hold on to it to I felt like hey we can make a really solid case for what's going on here and I thought we needed that other information for that to be clear to the other counselors as well as to myself to support it. Rather than it being what one might argue I'm hearing from some members that maybe it's a this is a solution in search of a problem. And I don't think that's true. I think that there are serious concerns about not knowing how data is being used. So given that I complained. I got my complaint address to the best of the ability of the people involved. Now, I can't insist any further that they go back and get more data. I'm not hearing with the town manager saying oh yeah now I suddenly have time to do this. So I guess I'm feeling like it's time for TSO to move it to town council and in all reality it's going to be in the town manager's court to explain why this is a horrible idea. Because we don't have anything other than that from him to really say why it's a bad idea. So it's not the kind of adversarial position I wanted to be on this bylaw, but I think it's where we've ended up and yes there are lots of reasons lots of things have gotten complicated over the past year, obviously, but there's also process and we can't hold on to things forever because someday we might do something different. So I do think that TSO should now feel like having had multiple presentations asked for information gotten more information as we requested couldn't get the other information through no fault of their own. I think that it is time for us to make more recommendation and then let the town council sort it out. I'm just sorry that we couldn't provide better backing to the sponsors to ensure that there was a more complete package for when it goes to town council. But I think that there's only so much to part time counselors can do to make that information happen and I think they've done it. I just want to let you know that there's some possibility that my, my computer will lose charge. And if I disappear, you'll know why, but anyway, just want to let you know that, Paul. Thank you. So, you know me and I'm not being obstinate of this I responded to the sponsors with the track changes comments on the bylaw and that's what I thought I was supposed to do and if I missed something that people wanted, you know, I apologize for that. This is not the, you know, it feels like to me that if it was like, you know, hey, you forgot to give us this piece of it. And maybe that's not on the sponsors to to to, you know, remind me of something like that. You know, so and just so you know it's not, you know, I'm holding on this information because I don't want to give it to you, or something like that. That's not the way I work, you know, I think I, I try to provide the information that council needs to make an informed decision. I didn't have it in my brain. I was supposed to produce a list and maybe I just missed that or I just, I had my brain that we're supposed to revise the by look at the bylaw. How is it impacting the how it did operate impact the operations of our departments that's what my asset department has to look at. I did not ask them for a list of things that could be applied to this. So, I don't think anybody has an objection to the bylaw. So if you want to move forward on it, that's, that's, that's up to the council, obviously. But I, it, I just want to identify that this is sort of an awkward conversation to have with a committee where it feels like I'm being placed in a position that implies that I'm purposely withholding information from the council, which is not what I do and you know, so, and I may I've obviously done it in the council's eyes because I haven't given you the information but it's not purposeful. And it's anything it's an oversight. So, so I just wanted to say that it just seems that this to me was an awkward cover is an awkward conversation because it seemed to be set up as a discussion that could just didn't need to be any other thoughts about going forward. Evan. So as Alyssa pointed out, when we were talking about this back in February, and she asked for that information. And I said, I don't want that information, nor do I care about it, and it's not going to alter how I vote on this. And so, I'm not waiting for that information personally because I never wanted in the in the first place. So I would be perfectly fine with us going forward. Andy. I guess I would feel uncomfortable voting tonight. I think that the reasonable thing to do is to commit to a meeting date at which we are going to going to vote that it be within a reasonable period of time and I'm going to leave it to the group to define to decide the definition of that. The additional information becomes available. And it is, you know, affects people how they vote in the committee when the committee gets to that date. That's fine. But it probably is worth setting a timeline for when we're going to do it and move forward. But I think it would be very different. I would be very uncomfortable doing it tonight. Do I do I sense that there are three of us that are wanting to move it forward tonight. Evan. Just to clarify, I don't feel like it necessarily has to be tonight if Andy feels uncomfortable and wants to wait until next meeting. I have no issue with that. I just want to say I would like us to move forward, even in the absence of that information that we asked for whether that's tonight next meeting the following meeting doesn't matter so much to me as I'm don't want to wait for any more information. Alyssa. I'm not trying to be confrontational here Andy. I just don't know. I don't think there's any reason to believe we're going to get any more information at this particular moment, given everything else that's going on. So, I don't see a need for a pause but if there's, if you're actually, you said if additional information because it's not going to become available. So, I'm okay with moving it forward but of course we haven't heard from George either so I don't know. George. Well I'm echoing I think Alyssa's question. I'm at this point I don't know what more we're waiting for, and it's not clear. And so, without that, and with Evan's comment that he's doesn't really matter whether information comes forward or not he's ready to move ahead. And there's no clear sense of what it is we're waiting for. I think we might as well go ahead and act. Unless someone can make an argument for something that we desperately need, and also convinced me that there's a reasonable chance that that information can be provided in the next two weeks. The sponsors have waited a long time. So, I think we should go ahead unless someone can make a case. Yeah, I would agree with that someone like to make a motion. I move we recommend the town council adopt the Mandy Joe would you like to fill in the blank. It's the surveillance technology oversight by law. Someone like to second. I can second. Any further discussion. Evan. Yeah, I just want to say so I'm not 100% sold on the necessity of this bylaw and I've expressed that to Mandy before. But my primary concern has always been the burden placed on staff. It seems this most recent revision really did take into account trying to reduce that burden. Especially I had a huge concern about the annual report but it seems that they have addressed that. So last meeting when I said I don't need any more information it's not going to change my vote it wasn't going to change my no vote. But actually given the revisions that came forward. They reduce some of that burden on staff I am going to support the motion to recommend adoption. George. Given Paul ample opportunity this evening to express any serious concerns he has about burden on staff or objections that his department heads have for the bylaw. And if I understand him and I think he was pretty clear. There are none. So, I too do not share the sense of urgency for this. I understand the argument to be made that it's important that people know. I don't think there's a problem I don't think there will be a problem but the point that the sponsor Mandy made is that this is also a vehicle for ensuring that people know what's happening with this kind of information. So with that argument. But I understand to be Paul's statement that there are no serious objections from staff. And he has no serious objections that will require some staff time. Steps have been taken in this latest version to reduce that. I'm willing to vote in favor of this. Andy. Maybe it's because I joined the newbie on the committee. And so this is only the second discussion for me of this bylaw. So I'll admit that that may be a factor here because I'm sort of feeling like, yeah, I'll be ready if we give one more opportunity to get at least for ourselves and for the council. More comprehensive listing of what is already in use. So that we get a sense of what it is that we're, we're asking, and what a sense is what is out there that we should be concerned about. So, if we do go ahead and vote tonight. I may be inclined to vote now I probably will be and it's not so much on the end as to whether I could be convinced that's the right file up and I've just not quite there yet. And so it's a timing issue. And I think that that I think that necessarily is a bad idea I just not convinced yet that it's a good idea and then you get to the burden of proof. Any other comments. Okay, let's vote. I vote. Yes, Evan. Hi. George. Hi. Andy. No. Okay, so we're recommending it four to one. And I don't know whether that's something that will be taken up on Monday. Probably won't be right. Go to do well now for attorney review. So. Oh, okay. All right. All bylaws have to go through DOL so I can take the, I can clean up the track changes version and send it on to George's chair of GOL. Okay. And I don't have to write a report by Monday. Yeah. All right, so. Thank you. Great. Thank you, Mandy Joe. So all right now we're moving on to our hopefully brief discussion of the formatting for our format going forward for our meetings and whether or not people want to stay with a zoom format. Or in person. Any discussion about that. Two of us are, you know, I believe, unless I'm speaking for you will listen and me. I think that we would need to be participating remotely if we go forward in person, at least I will need to be. So just want to let you know that George. No doubt discover this when you read the GOL report for this Monday's meeting. But we discussed this at GOL and, and that committee three members very much wanted to return to in person. But through the course of discussion. It was clear, I think to all of us that that if we insisted on that we could have passed it. It would really create an unfortunate dynamic where people who for good reason couldn't be present would then be potentially handicapped it would just so we came to the agreement by consensus that we would go back to zoom though we've had two meetings of GOL in person, and they, they went fine, but the dynamic is not, I think ideal, and it puts people in awkward situations so here I'm going to based on that experience. I'm going to argue that we should continue with zoom, as we have been doing, and perhaps choose a date in September to revisit it. Personally, both on the council level and on the committee level, very much personally prefer in person meetings. I think it just to insist on that would just create an unpleasant or unfortunate dynamic and make it harder for us to do our job so we should go to zoom. Keep to zoom. Evan and Andy, do you have thoughts. I'm completely ambivalent on this I don't really care, but I do know we don't have the option of hybrid meetings. And so CRC on Tuesday did a meeting in which one member participated remotely. It went fine. But but I had forgotten what it's like to have remote participation where you can actually see the person and they can't see screens, and I did recognize that it's difficult so I think if there are, if there are members on this committee that absolutely will not show up to a meeting in person I think it's better for us to just keep it on zoom. How about you Andy. I think they're pretty much where Evan is at. Also, for some committees, though not for this one because we today have two people in the audience. And that's the other thing is just so that I find that the remote meetings, certainly kinder to people in the community who want to either serve or participate in meetings. George, you have another comment as quickly as you will. I just would ask that we set a date for where we come back to reconsider. That's the only request I would make. It sounds like we have a consensus to go forward and zoom do you want to just say to the first meeting date in September. That's what we did in GOL. People good with that. And then we can, we can revisit it then. Okay, great. So we have our, our June 14 minutes. Anyone have any problems with that. I would make it, I would make a motion to accept the minutes as presented. Second. No discussion. Okay, Alyssa. Staying Darcy. Yes, Evan. Hi, George. Andy. Hi. Okay. The next meeting agenda. Unclear. We may have some public way requests. Paul. Does it look like we are going to get some potential referrals. So the. I'm just trying to line up your meeting with the potential recreation director appointment, which is a 14 day turnaround. And if I'm looking at we, we are in the final round of interviews. And they go through next week. Just look at the counter. I think our last interview is on July 2nd. So if we are shooting for the July 12 council meeting. I haven't really done the calendar on this yet, but that's the, that's the, that's the, that would be a time sensitive item. Everything else would not be time sensitive. Okay. George. Do you have any idea about the residential parking issue. Coming forward. I'm still in Guilford's court. And so I'm waiting for Guilford to get back to me. I'm not going to put too much pressure on him right now. He's aware of it. So right now I'd say unlikely. So. I'm clear what's coming up next. Other than what Paul was just talking about. Your next meeting is July 8. I have to live 15. We have the first. Really? Okay. That was my question. When are we meeting next? And could we get a schedule? I'm serious. I have a schedule that I follow rigorously on to URL. And it maybe is one. And I've just lost it, but I don't have one. And it would be nice to know. It's so my phone says the 15th. And my phone. The first and the 15. Okay. I apologize. My phone says the first as well. Thank you. Then there's three week gap in the, in the July and August meetings. So. Has a question about the star scene. Yeah. So. My schedule does say the first in the 15th of July, right? That's correct. And so the first would meet Paul's requirement. In order to get it to the town council for the July meeting. Right. I'm not sure we're finished after check when we were finishing our interviews for that. Because then the other option obviously would be, you would ask us to have a separate meeting just about this one issue. But normally we're meeting the first and the 15th. And so when we're talking about next to Jen, we're talking about the first. While we're talking about calendar issues. And George really tried, but didn't get an answer as to what date we would revisit this. And since we're a little unsure on our calendars right now, I believe that September 16th is our first September meeting as Darcy referenced our first September meeting. Unfortunately, September 16th is also the second evening of Yom Kippur, which doesn't end until after, you know, It's until sunset. So I don't know why we have a meeting scheduled for the 16th in the first place, but that is our first September meeting in terms of revisiting the meeting format discussion. So I think we have to. Look at that because that's not usually when towns meet. And the other item is then if the first isn't going to work. Where you Paul, which seems quite likely given that it's literally next week. That we'll have to have a meeting. Prior to the TSO. Scheduled meeting of the 15th. So maybe do we change the July 1st meeting? Darcy to a different date. That's somewhere between then and the town council meeting. That's on the. Evan wins the town council meeting. The 16th. No. Council's meetings on the 12th. Yeah. Yeah. Town council meetings on the 12th. So if we can somehow write. So that puts us. Meeting the week of the fifth somehow. Why don't we meet on the eighth? If we stay the same day. Just be on the. On the eighth. Well, it's a Thursday. What else do I do on a Thursday? Some of us might do something on the other side. It's hard for me. No, imagine that. So. Anyway, that's a suggestion. So there's, there's, if Thursday, the eighth works for everybody, then I would think we could meet then instead of on the front. And then we'd also meet on the 15th in less of course we ran out of things to do. Right. That is fine with me. Why don't we. That's three. That is three weeks in a row. So, right. First, eighth and 15, maybe we knock off the 15th. We're knocking off the first. Thank you. You're right. We're knocking off the first. Because that's just next week. So that's just next week. And then we'll meet the eighth. So that we get Paul's recommendation and we can turn it around to the council for the council meeting that's on the 12th. All right. Right. We are, you know, we are going to meet two weeks in a row and then skip three weeks. We might. You think that you would rather keep it that way. Well, we can adjust. Yeah. I mean, as Alyssa said, if some things come up, we can certainly adjust. I have no problems with not meeting for three weeks. But there may be things that come along and then we can change, but. This works. We'll, we'll assume July 8th and 15th. And then we'll check on the 16th of September to maybe night. It sounds like we need to shift that meeting to. A different September date. And then that will be the first meeting in September where we talk about. What our. Meeting format is. We do that right now. Either the ninth or the. Ninth would be an update. Of September, Thursday. What's the previous meeting? Sorry. To get my list. So we, yeah, we have August 26th and then September 16th. We can meet on the ninth. People prefer that. And then we don't have another meeting until the 30th. I think that. I think that makes sense because. September is literally full of Jewish holiday observances. But Yom Kippur's most, as I understand it, the most serious one on the 16th in terms of work requirements, et cetera. And so the ninth. Is a. Less critical holiday. The 23rd is part of a long stretch of holiday. So I think night is. Most logical choice. The town council meeting is September 13th. So. Hopefully you won't need a report. The night actually is not a holiday. Is it? Russia shown over at five PM on. The day before the eight. Yeah, I always check like three different calendars. So I'm not relying on my phone for that. So if you know the answer to that one already, Andy, then. We're fine. But so the night should be fine. I think it's. Some of that always depended upon the degree of. Observance of the person who's being asked the question, which is why I always. Big out of being the one to ask. Just asked him all that question there. I think that's a good question. Yeah, but 16th is definitely out. And that's why it's not actually going to be the black part of that night. So. Yeah. Are we good? Good with our schedule, Paul. Just to clarify. So you're meeting on July 8th, which I appreciate because that will make the timing work for the department head appointment. Then you've got the 15th, August 26th, September 6th, September 9th. And September 30th. Just one note on September 9th. That is likely to be the bid block party. That's what they're going to change it to. Well, that's bad. Then we didn't, we shouldn't do that. And also we, we're meeting on August 5th, Paul. August 5th. Yes. So. Well, given that we're meeting at the end of August, right? We're meeting on the 26th. I don't think it's the end of the world. If we don't meet till. September 30th. So is the rule on September 16th. After. After sunset would be all right, but it's not sunset to like 715. Oh, you looked it up. Yeah. When the bid block party was inadvertently scheduled for that date, I did look it up. Yes. I mean, what we could do is just change it to 730 that night. Yom Kippur is a serious enough holiday that I think that expecting people to that's like saying, I don't know, it makes me uneasy. I mean, we could pick a different day of the week that, that particular week, right? In theory. But it wouldn't be Wednesday. And so. Do we just. Do we just say, we'll, that we don't meet in September other than the 30th, unless something comes up. We could do that. I mean, because we also, if something does come up, we have the ability to schedule a special one-off meeting like we did on that Monday meeting. Right. That worked out. Right. We do have two meetings in August. We could always meet with the 23rd if we needed to. We could do that. I don't know except for it being midway through Sukha, but that's a different question. So I could set September's just chock full this year. And so I think it's makes the most sense to assume that the 30th that you scheduled forever ago is for sure ago, but that there's no other September meeting unless we add one in and we pay attention to all those holidays before we added it. And we can discuss it further. We got plenty of time. But we know that we're going to meet on July 8th instead of July 1st. Okay. We have some public still. No, we don't have public still here. No, let's see. And Tracy has her hand up. Okay. Now. Am I in charge of bringing Tracy in? That might not be good. Let's see. Here we go. Tracy. Hi, Tracy. Hi. Am I the only member of the public? I guess you are. You're the only member. Art was there for quite a while, but there you go. At least I appreciate that I can participate remotely. And I often walk around during the meetings too. So I just had a brief comment. It was related actually to the earlier presentation about solid waste hauling and options in Amherst. So this isn't an issue I've thought a ton about, you know, I've been, I was always pretty happy with Amherst trucking, which I've been an Amherst resident for 20 years. I've had Amherst trucking. My rates haven't ever increased a lot. But like after USA as documented a little bit in the Smith report, I've seen a lot of people say that. But like after USA recycling took over, the rates went up. My rate only went up about 10%. Not a big deal for over 10 years. But I know some people said their rates increased like 50 to 75% or more. So after I'd read that, I did reach out to USA recycling. About it. So I received an email back from their director of operations that said that we don't post our rates on our website for a number of reasons, but most importantly, because trash is personal. And we see value making sure that the services are personalized for each customer. So, I mean, I think that some people, they're really, they really would benefit from more transparency. You know, I really was not comfortable with that response. I did eventually talk to customer service person at USA. And they did give me the rundown of all the rates. But, you know, you really had to look for that information to get that response from the director of operations. I know that the decision about the contracts, you know, with USA is not made at the TSO level. I think it's made by the board of health, like that does the licensing. But you know, it is concerning. And I think there is a lot of kind of misinformation. Not everybody will read the Smith report, which looks great and is super informative. So, you know, if there could be some transparency, I think that would be huge help. Because one of the things too, I had heard that like TSO had a practice where were people with long driveways that they would go down the driveway. And, you know, pick up the trash. And so when USA took over, they continue to offer that, but it was like at a premium level. And I think that there is a lot of kind of misinformation out there. And they didn't offer that, but it was like at a premium cost. And they didn't tell people if you take your, if you take your trash containers recycling containers out to the curb, you know, that would save you, you know, 25, 30, 50%. And so when people found that out, they said, Oh wait, I could save all that money. And I never knew, right? So, and that's one of the issues with having almost a monopoly. So I mean, Republic has come to Amherst, but most of the people still use USA. I mean, the other thing too is just, you know, I think there is a lot of value in looking at ways to cut the waste and the current pricing structure of these commercial haulers is not really aimed at doing that. Like for example, I think if you have like one trash barrel, but then you get a second, you only pay say like 10%. I mean, maybe $10 more. It's a very small increase. And so there's really not that much incentive to cut waste. And I actually know some families that will, will just sign up for one service between the two families because you pay so little for the second barrel that they basically are like, Hey, we can save money by like signing up together. And so anyway, so I just wanted to raise that. And I think, you know, when I actually looked at the pricing, I think if you have like one barrel or you have a barrel twice the size, the cost is very small. So if, if Amherst really does want to cut solid waste, that it's collecting, it would be great if we could come up with some other pricing structure. So it was exciting to hear that Amherst is looking at options, including possibly something through the town. So thanks, that was it. Thank you, Tracy. Okay. We don't have any items not anticipated. And I think that's it. Thank you. Thank you. Oh, we didn't give people a chance to ask Paul questions about the town manager report because we moved that. Remember, we moved it. Oh, oh, for us all this time. Right. Did you have one? Did you have something? Yes, but I forgot what it was. Maybe somebody else does. I'm sorry. Yeah, I moved it and then I forgot it. Anybody have any questions for Paul? I guess not. You're off the hook, Paul. Okay. I declare this meeting adjourned. See you later.