 Welcome to another episode of the Savvy Entrepreneur. Today we're talking about rent, and yes, it is too damn high. There's a reason for that, and it's all because very rich people, endowments, and other types of vehicles that are designed to hold and grow money are needing a place to park large sums of money that typical investment vehicles just aren't equipped to deal with. So let's explore. According to Investopia, rent seeking is defined as economic wealth obtained through shrewd or politically manipulative use of resources. So the concept is not necessarily a good thing. Rent seeking is essentially a bad thing. So why is it so commonplace that people pay rent? There are essentially three different types of entities that own property. There are the homeowners who own the property and live in it. There are small investors who have a handful of properties that use them to supplement their income. And then there are large institutions like private equity and hedge funds that own large swaths of properties, predominantly condos in high rises and large apartment complexes. The subprime mortgage crisis basically occurred because investors needed a place to park lots of money and have a good return on investment based on mortgages as a safe way to make a steady stream of income. Let's say you're the head of a pension plan, a pension plan with say hundreds of millions of dollars in it. You have to grow that pension plan at a certain rate every year in order for you to meet the liabilities that you have basically paying the beneficiaries. So what you need in order to have a high rate of return is to increase risk. However, if you're managing a pension plan, you don't want that risk because if you lose the money, then that is the future of your beneficiaries and you can't do that. How good of an investment is real estate? Let's take a look. Say you're able to buy a duplex for $400,000 and you are able to rent out each side for $1,500 a month. You generate $36,000 a year. That is a 9% gross return on capital. So over a period of 11 years, you double your money in terms of gross, not accounting for the increase in the value of the building. Commercial real estate, now that's an even better deal. Some rental agreements last 10 years and oftentimes tenants are in charge of any sort of improvements or maintenance and businesses are typically more stable than the income of an individual household. The problem is if you're managing a huge fund that has to meet the obligations of your pensioners, how are you going to make all those individual investments in a fruitful manner? You can't. So that's why the stock market is there. However, the tech bubble made a lot of people wary of putting all of their money into the stock market. The mortgage crisis of the mid-2000s made people not want to buy mortgage-backed securities. And now COVID is making people rethink their investments into commercial real estate. Now just like the residential real estate crisis, there was a large drop in the book value of many properties. This is going to be, in my opinion, much larger for commercial real estate because the price tags of commercial real estate buildings are way more. According to a recent article in The Economist, the commercial real estate part of the business is $32 trillion. Yeah, you heard that right. Trillion. Private equity and publicly traded funds are about a third of that total. And on top of that, these entities have mountains of cash waiting to spring on the best investments that are coming through the door. What I think is going to happen is a certain key commercial real estate locations will increase in value because they have a lower risk of nonoccupancy. The Economist also talked about in places like New York, if 10% of the current renters of commercial real estate were to not rent, the overall price of a square foot in Manhattan would drop by 50%. The value of these properties are calculated by their potential to make cash flow and that cash flow is to rent. So if rent is dropped by 50%, then the price and the valuation of that building has hence dropped by 50%. That's massive. Can you imagine if your house was worth 50% of what you thought it was? Now, this is a big deal for everyone because everyone's 401k and pensions and other types of low risk investment vehicles have large swaths of these type properties. To help us with this discussion, I've invited Marta Lochemin. Marta is running for the local Boulder County Commissioner position. So another thing that's really important to us here in Boulder County is renting. A large portion of the people here in this county rent and rent has been going up pretty steadily since I've been here in 2014. Do you want to talk about some of the initiatives you're planning on doing in order to combat rent inflation? Yeah, let me give a little bit of background, especially for folks who might be listening or watching from other areas, that in Boulder County, from a county perspective, and we have 330,000 residents in Boulder County, 45% of our residents are renters. In the city of Boulder, it's 55%. And so we have, when you talk about renting, and I think that's helped kind of people figure out, you know, how does that feel? And the other piece that is happening nationally and also here in our county is the reality of not just renting, but also spending more than 30% of your income on your rent. And so that's another, you know, kind of topic of the conversation. But just from the piece of rent, one, there's a need, obviously, because we have such a great portion of our community that rents. And we can kind of talk about the different pieces of that. But maybe that background for people is at least helpful. So do you think that promoting home ownership is a good way to combat this, or do you think that keeping prices rent down is the better way? Depends what your outcome, you know, where you're going and what are you looking for. So my background is focused on home ownership. I'm talking about my, you know, 20 years of career plus. And also a lot of my nonprofit work with the National Association of Hispanic Real Estate Professionals. That's what we focus on is sustainable home ownership. And people ask me a lot, like, what does that mean? That the idea of sustainable means that we, as advocates of housing, advocate for and look for and create different types of the different steps to get to home ownership. So it might be like you're talking about renting. There's a need, just with the data I just shared, but you need. And there's also this need for affordable rentals. And that can look like very different, you know, different ways than affordable rental. It could look like deed restricted housing, which we have some of that here in Boulder County as well. We can talk about a little more specifics too if you want to. Ultimately, I believe what we're missing in Boulder County is entry-level housing. Because someone like you and I who want to get our foot in the door, literally, it's not just the price, but it's that what I tell clients all the time is you're buying a car. Typically, it's not the first time you buy a car. It's not typically the car you're hoping you have forever. It's the A to B and the A to B and the A to B to start and home ownership. In my mind, we need to provide some more opportunities for folks to start with something like that, translated into housing, and then move on and, you know, as different things, you know, life changes, right? Yeah, that's such a good point because, you know, someone might not be able to afford the average home in Boulder, but might be able to down the road. And between then and where they are at this point in time, if they were to buy a house for 200-something thousand, then they could be saving their equity and not just throwing it away into someone else's mortgage, right? Yeah, absolutely. And I think that's the piece of your right. I mean, Boulder this week, we're looking at, oh, and I just looked at numbers yesterday from an on the market. You're, I believe, 1.8 million average active on the market. So, unsold property on the market in the city of Boulder. Interestingly enough, Longmont just went over half a million this last week, which is shocking. But what does that say? It's exactly what you're talking about. And then we also have, and then we also have a house here, the low-priced attached dwelling here in Longmont this week is at 225, which is right in that bracket that you were talking about. And so again, the affordable, we have to pay attention because I think affordable, it's not that I think affordable in the term has changed over the last 20 years. Oh, yeah. Think of it. Affordable if you're working for Google is a lot different than if you're, if it's affordable and you're working for, you know, half a taco down the street, right? Right, yeah, absolutely. And I mean, there's the cost kind of the price point. And then there's also what a lot of folks think about when they talk about affordable housing is the subsidies. And that's, you know, something that we're going to have to look at, I believe, in some other creative ways because we need to have, we know we have a housing issue here in Boulder County. We have a housing shortage. It was just participating in the City of Longmont City Council meeting this past Tuesday. I was going to say past week, but it's only Thursday, I think today. I don't know if you kind of catch some of those or caught some of that info, but there's potential businesses who right now are looking, it was a Longmont Economic Development Partners report of like 7,000 potential jobs. We don't have 7,000 open doors. We can't issue in Boulder County of basically, and the data will show about 3.5 jobs to every one housing unit. I mean, that's just going to press homes up even further. I mean, supply and demand, right? Yeah, we did talk about economics, right? Yeah. So on the topic of economics, a couple of ways people can look at this problem. If you think about it as an economic equation, there's supply and demand. So if the population of people who took the lowest income jobs were no longer there or willing to take those jobs, then the price that employers would need to pay those people would have to go up, then giving them a living wage. But that's not a very empathetic way to look at things. You want to discuss the heartless economic approach versus the more empathetic approach and where we can maybe find some more in the middle? There's a few pieces in there, really. We talk about that and I hear people say that a lot, especially with the numbers that we're just talking about, and the reality of where our housing market is. And some of that argument sounds like not everybody lives in San Francisco, not everybody lives in New York City, and not everybody needs to live in Boulder. And we also have community needs, and we've seen this, especially, I mean, COVID, a perfect example, our flood in 2013 was another, the reality that we need to have our educators, we need to have our first responders, we need to have our county employees be able to live in the area, our counties and our cities where we need their supports. And when I say we, I'm talking about, again, that 330,000 population, right? There's folks needed to be resourced. We are still not, which is a separate conversation, but we're as much as we want to think that we're reaching people online, especially right now during COVID, we still have a significant portion of our community who's disconnected still. And so having people on the ground, and some of those jobs, which I don't know if we'll really get into or not with the essential services, etc., some of those jobs are not jobs that can be done digitally. And so the fact that we need to truly come up with solutions to allow people to live and work in their own community is real. That's a great point. So, I mean, teachers aren't paid a ton. Could a teacher even be able to afford a home in Boulder County on a single income? You know, I've heard a presentation where the comment was that a Boulder County resident would have to make $100,000 a year to buy a property here in the county. And I disagree with that. And here's why, I mean, just hearing that data shared out, on the interwebs was so concerning to me because that's the industry that I work in. And there's two things right now. And this is time sensitive because of where interest rates are right now in this country. You don't have great interest rates and great home prices at the same time. Just like you can't sell your home for an amazing price and buy a home for that really low price that you're wanting, right? I mean, you can't do both at the same time. And similarly, but that's one of the pieces right now. And we have home and interest rates or mortgage interest rates at less than 3% in the U.S. right now. That makes me think a little bit more about the preparation standpoint and how do we help people be in a position, right? The opportunity meets you when you're prepared, right? That's another piece of that. How do we help people get their credit, get their savings, understand what the steps are so that they can be in a position to take an advantage, take advantage of, in some ways, the market that we have right now. And I know people are saying, no, it's not a good market because that house price is high. But I've never accessed mortgage financing at less than 3% on a regular mortgage. I mean, I'm not talking about a 10-year arm right now. It's a regular 30-year fixed mortgage. And so that's part of, to me, the messaging that's not being shared. Your question specifically around teachers, teachers in the same brain where we're at, Volta Valley teachers actually make a little bit more, which is one of the pieces of retention that the district here needs to address. But your right in Colorado in general, we do not pay our teachers. Well, we just don't pay them enough to, we don't provide the security. And we're seeing right now with COVID, all the public health issues. A teacher here on a regular, just a single person as a teacher is not going to be able to afford the average house property, house right now in the city of Longmont, as an example. Most teachers that I know, and being a previous teacher, we don't typically work one job. There's a myriad of reasons for that. And so going back to that piece of how do we show that's a state situation, that's another funding conversation that I believe 100% needs to happen. Yeah, I agree. I think it's tragic that our educators, the keystone of our communities, people who, with COVID, as you mentioned, are super important now that everyone realizes how difficult it is to educate their own kids. These people we've got to really take care of, and I agree with you completely. I mean, the only thing I was going to add around the education, because you're right, people don't know what happens, what goes on in the building from a teacher standpoint. But the other reality, and I believe that things have changed and evolved over the last 10 to 15 years when we think about just how society has changed here in the US, the teachers are not just teaching. And I'm sure that parents who have now been taken on that role are feeling that in a different way, because teachers truly are social workers, their support systems, their gateways to resources and all of those different pieces. And they happen in the past teaching too, state exams, and so there's a whole lot more to it that I believe those support systems need to be, are going to have to be addressed here as we move into online schooling here in most parts of Colorado shortly. Sidebar. Yeah, that's a very important thing to add. But again, why they need to be paid more. Exactly, right? Exactly. So another thing we could talk about about home prices and renting and that whole topic is the fact that some people own dozens of rental properties. And sometimes there are entities and corporations. And I was doing a lot of research on this, and this has basically occurred because investors with large sums of money want a steady return on their investment. And income properties have demonstrated a very reliable way to both increase value through depreciation, but also give a sustainable revenue stream. The problem is, is that when these investors and institutions have a large amount of homes, they can both control the pricing because they own so much of it, they can unilaterally push prices up. And B is preventing people who are like we were talking about at the bottom end of the market from getting into their first homes, because most rental properties, let's face it, they're not the best homes in the best neighborhoods. So these are literally taking away advantage potential opportunities for these low income people to get into their first home. So what do you think about applying some sort of tax or disincentive to these multi-multi-home owners? I'm not talking about the pure personal ones, one or two income properties for their retirement. I'm talking about people who own dozens. And I think there's a couple pieces that when we talk about disincentivizing somebody from running their business, because in my mind somebody who's a property investor, it's either their full-time job or it's truly a business, right, when you talk about somebody who has, and I think that's important distinction you were making at the end. So we've got a small landlord who let's say they own one to 10 properties. They're most likely self-employed. They probably don't have any health benefits. They probably don't have any 401k account. They don't have vacations, et cetera. So that creates that's another business on top of their other self-employed business, right, or company that they're building, et cetera. That to me is one conversation. And then the other conversation is what you're talking about. But I think that distinction is so important because as we know right now in the conversation about rent and COVID and paying mortgages and things has gotten to, in my opinion, very skewed. So the other group that I believe you're talking about right now and referring to is kind of the corporate investor or these big companies. The keyboards. Well, and every community is different, right? I mean, in some areas around the country, we're talking about folks who own apartment buildings. You know, if you've got five apartment buildings and you've got 60 units in each or et cetera. So we've got hundreds of doors that these folks are maintaining or overseeing, et cetera. So that I think is important just from a distinction of who are we talking about. And I still believe, you know, do we use, do we disincentivize or do we create incentives for property owners to consider this kind of back to that empathetic conversation? Do we incentivize somehow in Boulder County opportunities for property owners to give back to the community and allow our first responders or community members, folks who want to build equity, et cetera, in our community locally, some type of incentive to give them an opportunity to look at a first time home buyer, for example, who wants to offer on their home or this rental home that they're ready to get rid of versus another investor. And I believe that there are some ways that we could do that. And I think that's one of the ways that we can address some of these issues. It's not going to open all the doors that we need. We already talked about some of that data, right? I'm going to open some of the doors immediately. But could it open up another pool? And that to me is where we need to get involved with some of our nonprofits and potentially some of our local housing agencies, housing partners, et cetera, to really look at some of that type of incentivizing because my concern is if we disincentivize, we know how people can react to that when the reality is we just want to make sure that people can live and work here in Boulder County. So you don't think that's a good idea to disincentivize the people who, as you said, have hundreds of doors? To put taxes, I mean, basically to put some type of a tax or fees or something on a corporation who owns property. Over a certain number of doors. It depends on what the outcome is, I suppose. I mean, if the tax is based on, um, if the tax is based on, for example, you've got, I'm trying to think of what would be a great, you know, just a kind of a cutoff number. Let's say you have more than 300 units that you're, I would say way lower. I'd say a dozen. If you got more than a dozen units, then some of those properties should be owned by owner operators and not by, you know, just capital investors from maybe outside of the state or even outside the country. So are you thinking like a, you know, I think it's an interesting concept. If you're disincentivizing, meaning you're going to tax them or feed them based on their property, put them in a different property, like property tax potentially. Great idea. Yeah. And yeah, from a corporation standpoint, are there, I believe, yes, there's opportunities that we could change the tax structures that gets pretty complicated. But that's an opportunity of how do we, um, how do we bring in a little bit more revenue? And then where would that tax money go potentially could go into some of these housing assistance exactly. Gap assistance. That's one of the things I really want to see is a gap assistance type of program. Um, because we have these different, you have to fit in such a box to get into these different programs. And there's a group of folks in the middle that, that really just need, need that support to be able to get into those entry level properties that we're talking about. Talking with Jonathan Singer, a representative here in the state of Colorado and an expert in all things domestic here in the state of Colorado. Jonathan, talk to me about rent. Well, thank you. And, uh, I'm enough of an expert to know that I'm not an expert in everything. Um, so, so first of all, I don't know when this is actually going out, but this is really important for people to hear both on the landlord and the rent side of things. Um, is that the state created a rental assistance fund. It's $20 million and those dollars come from the federal government. They need to be spent by the end of the year. They need to be spent by the end of the year. So if you are a landlord that is giving your tenant leeway right now, but you are struggling because you're not sure where you're going to make up the money for your mortgage, please, please reach out to me, reach out to the state of Colorado, reach out to our local officials. Um, this is the time to do something. If you're a renter and you don't know how, how much of your lease you're going to make up, same thing, please reach out. This is the time to do that. Uh, we've got to have a roof over everyone's head in the era of COVID-19. I, before the era of COVID-19, I said housing is healthcare and even more so in a pandemic, housing is not only healthcare, but it actually keeps other people safe too. And so, um, so I'll just start out there by saying that because that is so important. Um, that being said, I think, um, you know, housing is part of the reason that I ran for office. I started out as a caseworker working with families experiencing homelessness and saw how, um, you know, people were not treated well. They were disrespected and treated as really less than human. And, um, housing isn't just healthcare, but it's a right. And, and so that's part of the reason I decided to run for office. And it became real to me really just a couple of years ago as, as a lifelong renter, um, having lived in Longmont for the last 14 years, um, my landlord doubled my rent. And on a lawmaker salary in Colorado, making less than a social worker, um, there was no way I was going to be able to afford that for, for me and my family. And I was lucky enough, um, that my in-laws, um, were trying to buy a house and really needed some, some tenants to help make up their mortgage. And, and so, um, this is where I'm sitting here today actually is from, you know, the place where I now live because I was lucky and, and I always like to bring that up. You shouldn't have to be lucky to be able to afford a place to live. Um, and that is the honest to God truth of what it's like to live in Colorado and in Boulder County and even in the city of Longmont, arguably the most affordable city in Boulder County. Absolutely. And that's a great example of what people are having to do with COVID and the economic situation. And again, talk about that program and is there a website that people can visit? So, um, absolutely. I'm happy to share, share the program website. Um, I'll put it right there below, right? I'll, I'll put it, put it in the comments because I could give it to you verbally and it's gonna be, um, so actually, and, and, and as soon as I said that, it totally escaped my mind. So never mind. Um, put it right there, ticker it right there. Perfect. Yes. It's run through the Department of Local Affairs, um, through the Colorado State government. Um, but those grants are out there. That money needs to be spent and we know the need is out there. And, and, you know, I will say it's, it's, it's personal to me. Um, when I, when I heard my rent was being doubled and I had, you know, less than two months to find a new place to live, you start looking around to find places to live and you, you realize that when something, you know, when rent equals your income or is more than your income, you start asking yourself whether you belong in the community that you actually live in, have maybe grown up in. And for me, was elected to serve in. I mean, I won with two thirds of the vote, um, in 2018. And I wasn't sure if I was gonna be able to represent the people who voted for me. Um, and so for me to not feel like I could be a part of my community, what does that mean for everyone else? And so I think, you know, I don't, I don't, you know, I'm, I'm not deserving and I don't ask for people's sympathy, but I tell people if it can happen to your elected officials, who can it not happen to? Amen. Powerful words, Jonathan. I appreciate it. And thanks for the information. I think that those programs are going to be really helpful to our audience. So thank you for that. Absolutely. And, you know, we have a ton of other programs. We passed a slew of bills in the last couple of years to protect renters. Unfortunately, we didn't see, um, local control of, of rental rent control come into, come into play. But for people leaving the criminal justice system, I helped create a program for people who are experiencing either mental illness or substance use disorder to get access to housing and wrap around case management services. One, because it's the right thing to do, two, because we do have housing for people, it's called jail and it's really expensive and inhumane. So, um, so we, we are really trying to flip the script at the state level to create a humane cost effective system. Also, you know, right now, if you are a survivor of domestic violence, you can get certain exceptions from your landlord. So there are tons of opportunities that we have created in the last couple of years, um, to really protect renters in an era where, you know, rent is just far too high and we've created an affordable housing crisis here in, in our state and really across the country. So what do you think about initiatives to make renting, uh, less profitable for landlords by doing so, reducing the housing prices, allowing for people to purchase homes rather than having the price of homes be beyond the reach of people who are making under $100,000 a year? Yeah. I mean, I think it's, it's time to stop paying lip service to saying that, oh, well, everyone can afford a home or, or that, um, everyone can afford to purchase a home, I should say, or that we need to talk about attainable housing or workforce housing. Housing, we need to start off with a frame of mind saying housing is a human right and then start working from there because if you start backing into it by saying, oh, well, we're going to allow, we're going to create a 10% affordable housing ordinance, which is important or we're going to put into place rent control limitations, which is important too, or, or we're going to provide grants for people who are struggling with, with rent on a month to month basis, which is also important. Nothing's going to solve this by itself, but if, if, but if we don't start out with the perspective that everyone who can breathe deserves a roof over their head, we're never going to get to that ultimate goal. So, so I apologize. I probably didn't answer your question very directly there. And if you want to ask it again, I'm happy to answer it directly. So I think you basically covered it. I also wanted to talk about how much more cost effective it is to keep people in a home and a roof over their head than having them be evicted, be homeless, and how much more that costs society. You know, this, this is the interesting thing is that when we talk about housing and healthcare, you know, the state of Colorado provides that in jail. And so when we're willing to spend $30, $40,000 a year or more for that in our criminal justice system, we need to understand, we are saving three times that money by providing supportive housing options with case management and affordable options for people. When you have a chronic illness, whether it's diabetes or chronic mental illness or, or cancer, if you don't have stable housing, what happens is you start utilizing the emergency room. And who picks up the bill for that? In Colorado, that's the taxpayer. These are folks who are typically on Medicaid, who now are spending $1,000 or more every time they enter, take an ambulance ride and, and go to an emergency department when people could be maintained on food. Exactly. And, and decent medication on a regular basis, but for housing insecurity. And so we have a pilot Medicaid program where we're actually using Medicaid dollars for housing and saving Medicaid dollars at the same time. So we're saving lives, saving dollars through housing. Yeah. And you're saving lives of their livelihoods because if you, if you lose your, your home and your shelter, then how are you going to be able to maintain a job? Like, I can't even imagine that. You know, it's honestly, it's one of the reasons that I ran for office in the first place. I was brought on in the city County of Denver as their 10 year blueprint to end homelessness. That 10 year blueprint, I think started in about 2005. We're not there yet, right? And, and part of it might, the team I worked on was eliminated because I was told homelessness is not a significant enough barrier to employment. My job was to get other people jobs and careers. Well, you know, this was under the, this was under Mayor Hickenlooper and whether it was him or a middle manager, you know, my job description changed. Thankfully, I wasn't eliminated, but my job description changed. And to put that on someone to say, you know what, homelessness is not a significant, significant enough barrier to employment. You either need to get a job or move, move, move along when you don't have a home address to put on your resume. At that time, cell phones weren't as omnipresent as they are now. When you may not even have a phone number or a way that you can access your email, which has changed a lot now with cell phones, but still these basic human rights people were being treated like, you know what, it's not a right. And so this is something where we do really need to just change the fundamental assumptions of how we treat people. Absolutely. One thing that I've heard some people say is that the homeless population here in Colorado is a migrant population that comes in and out. Is that true? By and large, it's not. I mean, there is a portion of the population that is transient, chooses to be transient, but the vast majority of people experiencing homelessness are working and have children. And so, you know, I want people to think about literally the hundreds of families, the hundreds of children in St. Frayn Valley School District that don't have a stable place to live, are living in doubled up situations, are potentially staying, parents are staying with abusive partners just to keep a roof over their kids' heads. These are the choices that people have to make every day that they shouldn't have to. And you've made some progress to push legislation to prevent this type of thing, haven't you? Absolutely. I mean, this is one of the things that we've worked on is we've worked on things to say, look, if you are the victim of domestic violence, you're a domestic violence survivor, you have the right to get leeway from your landlord to get out of your lease. I mean, this is, this is, sounds like it's common sense, but it's not always common sense. And so, we weren't going to be a bystander to, or even, you know, I'll say it, we weren't going to be an accomplice in domestic violence by allowing a system that would allow landlords, oftentimes, who aren't even in the state to take advantage of people. The other big thing that we did is made huge, huge changes for our mobile home park communities and our manufactured housing communities. This is the most affordable entry-level way to get into home ownership, but the scary thing is the vast majority of the time people who live in manufactured housing communities don't own the land under them. So they might own that 20 or $30,000, you know, dwelling that they're living in, but what they don't own is the land under them. And so, once again, there are oftentimes nameless and faceless corporations from around the country that buy up these properties, don't maintain them, and then threaten their residents with egregious lot rent increases that force people to leave. And we know that these manufactured homes don't go with them when they leave. They're hard to move, and oftentimes, when you try to move them, you damage them in a way that makes them uninhabitable. And so, we passed a mobile home park owners, or yeah, or not a mobile home park owners, but mobile home owners Bill of Rights just last year to say, you know what? You are afforded legal representation and legal rights here in Colorado if you find yourself in a situation where someone's not providing you the right kind of water and electricity hookups, or someone's trying to force you out by selling the property without giving you notice. I mean, all of these things are, once again, basic human rights and a fight that we should have won years ago, but it was your lawmakers stepping up in the last two years that has created this, and also a strong enforcement mechanism through our State Department of Local Affairs and the Division of Housing, so we can go out there and not just say, you know what, they are breaking the law, good luck, go find a lawyer, or say, you know what, we're going to investigate with you whether or not they're breaking the law and hold them accountable through fines and fees if they are breaking the law and keep their pocketbook in check. Bravo. Thank you for all your work, Jonathan. You've done a great job for the community and the state. Well, it's been an honor and, you know, titles only mean as much as the work you do with it, and the work continues regardless of where things end up for me. Well, I look forward to seeing what you have for your next Encore Performance, because your first one has done a great job. Well, thanks again for having me. Again, special thanks to Marta and Jonathan for their hard work in supporting this community and for joining our conversation on this program. If you're a tenant and you're having issues making rent or if you're a landlord and your tenants are having issues making their payments, reach out to the organizations that Marta and Jonathan spoke about today. Let's promote home ownership, not just because it is the savvy thing to do financially, but because it is the right thing to do. Until next time, stay savvy.