 center above the clouds. That's pretty exciting. This is Community Matters and the handsome young man is Richard Ha. Welcome to the show, Richard. Hey, how's it? How's it? So what can I say? You're always busy. You were busy in Hamakua farms and you were a public person who discussed exactly the issues, especially the energy issues on the farm. And then we spoke not too long ago about geothermal and you were passionate about geothermal. And now it's something else. It's like Richard is always doing something. You are a community person. You are committed to causes. And I'm sure this is not the last one. But let's talk about this one. This is the Culture Science Center above the clouds. And I will let's just assume for a moment that when we say above the clouds, we mean high atop Mauna Kea or Mauna Loa. Am I right about that? Yeah. And we're talking mid-level. It needs to be above the clouds so that when you're looking above the clouds, you can see the stars. When you're below the clouds, you can see the rain. You've been thinking about this for some time because you wrote to me about it a couple weeks ago. And then there was an article in a, I guess a journal in, was it Germany? And you learned, oh no, it was on the mainland, yeah? From a woman. And she gave you an idea. She confirmed your idea, right? Can you talk about that article? You know, we ran across this PDF and it just happened last week, you know, where we were trying to look for a duplication of a hardcover 120-page study. It was a master's thesis with this lady that came to Hawaii and did the master's thesis on essentially what we see as a culture center above the clouds. So I was trying to get it duplicated because this is in the hard copy. Took it down to my friend Nimr Tomimi's office and had asked him to do it. And the lady that was going to do it was, she was really smart. She just googled it and popped this, it was online. And I had no idea. And nobody had any idea. And at this point, we're not even sure if the university had a copy. But it doesn't look like it. So what we're trying to do now is trying to, first of all, find out if it's possible to do this. And if it's not, then we take the next step. Because it was designed to be on the prison Hale Puhaku location. Oh, the article is about Hale Puhaku. The article is about Hawaii. Even though I remember now that the woman who wrote the article is, she's European. She wrote it as a master's thesis for the University of Vienna Technical School. Institute of Technology, yes. And they sponsored it. So it's not surprising that not very many people know about it because it was instigated on that side. Well, let's, let's, let's get, you know, the foundation here. What is a cultural, a culture science center? And what does the article say about it? And how does that comport with what you've been thinking about anyway? Yeah, well, it's exactly, you know, 128 pages of background, as well as architectural drawings for that actual building. So when, when we first saw it, I almost fell over because it was pretty much what we had in our minds. But you know, and we were told you need to have something solid. You can't just come and say we have an idea. Everybody has ideas. So we were thinking we'd have to spend, you know, a million or two to do something like this. And then we just fell into a lapse last week. Interesting. And you never talked to her? No, no, it's just, this is all brand new. Just trying to figure out, yeah. So, but my question is, what is a culture science center? What is, what is the culture? Is it native Hawaiian culture? What culture is it? Yeah, it is native Hawaiian culture. And it's, it's meant to, to bring together Hawaiian culture and science. But, but, you know, so that's what it's meant to do. But our, our, what we want to do is use it to, to further Kiki education, like elementary school. So what we would like to do is build this center and have kids go out from elementary school, all of the elementary schools on the big island, every single student, and get them to look through, you know, small telescopes and see the stars. And if they get inspired, maybe they want to become an astronomy. So the science you're talking about is astronomy. Yeah. And the reason for it is because, you know, when you're out there, that's what you see is the, the stars. And the thing about it is, you know, that resource is free. All you got to have is eyeballs, you know, so you can look up and spend as much time as you want there. But if you inspire the kids and they have to, and they want to pursue that idea because they're inspired, what will happen is they'll, they'll have to go into math. And that, that math is what kids need for future generations. That's the skills they need because our basic idea is, is, is what can we do to keep Hawaiian kids from leaving Hawaii to find jobs on the mainland? So we would rather keep them here. Yeah. So that's, that's really the objective. Okay. So the question I suppose is, even before we get to, you know, permits and money, which is going to be critical, is there an appetite for this? Because, you know, I think it's kind of in conflict on the big island, among the Native Hawaiian community as to whether we should have astronomy at all. Yeah. But, but, you know, if you start to ask yourself the question, where, what do we want to leave for future generations? And if you ask yourself that question, then, then, then, then, then, then everybody starts to focus on the same thing. You know, one generation from now is 25 years from now. What, what do we want to do our generation? What do we want to do to position themselves to be in a better position? So we're not in, you know, we're all on the same side. You know, you may seem like we're not, but we are all on the same side because we're not talking about building more telescopes. We're talking about building a facility to respect the Hawaiian culture, to teach kids, and then you do all the other things that's necessary. You make sure that it's sustainable, so you got to charge so much money. And if you make money at it, then you can put it into a fund to, to, to support Kiki education. Yeah. So that, that's the main objective. Okay. But let me ask you, I mean, do you support the telescopes, for example, the 30 meter telescope on Monocan? Are you pro or con on that issue? Oh, I'm a supporter of the 30 meter telescope. But I don't think right now the discussion really is about 30 meter telescope. They've done everything that they need to do. They follow the law and stuff like that. I don't think it's that at all. It's more about respect and those kinds of things. So what I'm basically saying, Hey, you know what? Why don't we do, do a culture center above the clouds? And from there, we can share with the rest of the words of the rest of the world what Hawaiians knew for a thousand years, you know, and, you know, there's a, there's a science center just up the hill, you know, from Hilo. I forget the name of the right. And this is sort of a, it's part of the, the whole astronomy facility at UH Hilo. Oh, you mean the law you talking about? Yeah. Yeah. And that is now is, is that what you're talking about? Or is that less or more than what you're talking about? It's essentially something like that. But the physical location is up on the biggest mountain in the whole world in the middle of the biggest ocean in the whole world. And it's a Hawaiian mountain. You know, and from there, you could broadcast to the whole world essentially the spirit of aloha. And you know, the way, the way I'm in Kekuhi, Kanaka, Uli's Hala'u here. So I'm picking this up from learning from that class. So what I've come to is that Hawaiians used to have the physical science and ecology kind of economic system. They didn't have bicycles or anything like that. Yeah. So everything was basically physical science and ecology. So what they did, which was real interesting to see is they had a culture that was that had guardrails. And the guardrails are set up to balance the resources against the needs. And the way they did it was they treated all living things like divine brethren. So human beings were no better than every other living thing. So in the culture, that's why you have the bird people, the fish people, the tree people. So they're all related. So when you look at that, that really is the essence of what it is, what is aloha. Take me on a trip, Richard. Take me on a case study. Let's say I start in Hilo. Okay. And I want to get up to the Culture Science Center. And I get up there somehow. You're going to tell me how. And I walk in the door, tell me what it's like when I go inside. Yeah. So you drive up the road, you come to the saddle road junction. And right there, you would go to a facility and you get a briefing on what's going on. But really what you're doing is you're in the interest of safety, you want to go up to the mountain in let's say a hydrogen bus because it won't be tomorrow we do this. Let's say you go up with a hydrogen bus. That's perfect for the big island. So you take a bus up there, mid-level, and you go to that facility, which is to the east of the prison, you drive in. But there's no more cars up there. It's just buses. Yes, you have to get on the bus. And the reason you do that is for safety, because you want to make sure it's a four-wheel-drive bus maybe. Yeah, four-wheel-drive hydrogen bus, highly trained bus drivers, stuff like that. So you go up there. And the first thing you do is you kind of look at it and you say, and you get this look and feel. So we've been working with Nelson McCool because he's a really good artist that can give you a sense of place. So we've worked with him. He drew up something. I almost fell over. Holy smokes. And it just really gives you that feeling. So then you go in there and part of it is underground. So it's not sticking way up in the air. But in it, there's a huge facility that's big enough so that when you go in there, you feel like it's, how should I say, it's got to be big enough to be respectful. It's got to give the look and feel of having the, so that you feel like the moral authority of what happens in monarchy happens there. Even if you're not on the summit because the summit is way sensitive. But there, that's essentially what it is. And then there's all kinds of facilities that stuff like that. Give me some examples of exhibits that you would see there. I mean, if I'm thinking, just given your adventures in energy, I'm thinking there'd be something about geothermal, would there? And I suppose there'd be something about a lot about astronomy and the Native Hawaiian connection to the mountains and the earth and so forth. What kind of exhibits do you imagine would be there, Richard? So essentially what we'd be doing is teaching of what the Hawaiian culture was about. So then when people come over there, they get exposed to what the Hawaiian culture was. And essentially what you're doing is you're spreading the information to the rest of the world. That would be a place to do that. So that's, you know, whatever it takes to do that. This plan here, it doesn't have to be exactly like what's in the plan. It can be changed according to what everybody feels like would be appropriate. So there's a lot of things that we can move around. But yeah, so there would be places where you... What does the plan say? What is the plan contemplating? What is the paper that this European student wrote about it? What does it say? I mean, if I want to sort of imagine what's in there, I guess some people have been imagining it. What do they imagine? Yeah, so it doesn't come, stick out of the ground very much. A lot of it is underground. It's basically about four stories of different levels, different things. Maybe like in Imi Law, they have a planetarium in there. So you could go in there and you can show anything you wanted. There could be a place where you teach even Hula how it's related to Hawaiian culture and learn everything about Hawaiian culture that you could possibly learn. So it would be a pipeline for the University of Hawaii language school and as well as the community college. And I would imagine you'd have a place for Hula to be taught. I'm not really sure. It's pretty much we'd have to ask the Hula people what would they like to see? What would be appropriate for them? So a lot of these things that has to be done in coordination with folks that would be involved in this. Okay, yeah. Well, let me ask you, who would that be? Is there an organization you have in mind? Would you be active in that organization? Would you be an officer director? What have you? Well, I wouldn't mind, but there are a lot of other folks. So this culture center above the clouds has been an idea of this group, well, which I'm a founding member of, I'm a board member. And they articulated that a while back when they were going through the comprehensive management plan, but when Judge Amano had that hearing, you know, so at that time, myself and Keahi Warfield, who was the president of Pueo, we went through those hearings and we sat there every single day and articulated that. And not only that, Kolepa Baibayan, a master navigator, you know, he was a strong advocate for this culture center above the cloud. As a matter of fact, when he was on the worldwide voyage, he flew back up to Hawaii to testify and then flew back down. You know, so and I asked Kolepa, I said, Kolepa, hey, if we do something like this, what do you suggest should be the name? He said the first thing he said was Maona Honua and then whatever the description is. So we've been using culture center of the clouds so that everybody could understand that we were talking about the clouds, not under the clouds, but it didn't have to be that. You know, it only needed to be a description that everybody agreed on. So it would, I'm sure it would have to have culture in it. But, you know, but that's what he suggested, Maona Honua. What does that mean, Richard? Maona means mountain, yeah? Yeah. What does Honua mean? You know, it's a, that's what the, because he's a navigator, the navigators look at Maona Kea as this big, I don't know how to describe it, but that's how he as a navigator looks at Maona Kea, Maona Honua. It's like the mountain. It's a special mountain, a special cultural. Yeah, for his perspective. Have you cited this, this, I mean, you have a hypothetical site where it would go. You know, you talked about the saddle road and Pohaka Loa. Would this be on the Maona Kea side of the saddle road or the Maona Loa side of the saddle road? It's on the Maona Kea side. You would drive all the way up to Hale Pohaku and it's to the left. So it's a possible. Not a specific site in mind. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So we've been on the site. We've looked around. This is about a quarter of a mile to the west. So when you're there, you're, if in the evening afternoon, you're looking at the sunset, but then you can't see it from our saddle road. So it's not intrusive like that. Mm hmm. So Richard, you know, something I always wondered about. I mean, to me, I see both of those mountains as glorious features in the Hawaii landscape. But I see them equally glorious. I get the feeling, though, that Maona Kea may have more relevance than Maona Loa. To me, they were equally relevant. But you know, what, what about the local culture on this? Is one more sacred than the other? Oh, I, I, I don't, I don't know that. The main thing I know is that Maona Kea has been dormant for 4,000 years or so, whereas Maona Loa is active. Mm hmm. Oh, true, true fact. Okay. So where is, okay, so I mean, I had a handle on who might be involved. Where would the money come from? What community would support this? I mean, do you expect the Native Hawaiian community in the Big Island, and for that matter, around the state to support this politically and economically? Do you expect the legislature would fund it? You, you mentioned before that there'd be maybe some kind of admission to go in. What's the economics? Well, you know, we, we don't know what, what it will cost. We just got that design last week. But just, just a back of the envelope estimation was that it would cost around 33 million. So we've already talked to this group from Korea. And, you know, we, we, they wanted to come and talk to us and they gave us a presentation. And then they wanted to give another presentation because they didn't feel like it did a, got their message across really well. Because we're not in Korea. We don't know how well they're, they're known. I mean, they're, they're extremely high level. Everybody knows who they are, except, you know, when you come to Hawaii, we didn't know. So they asked us for another presentation and we, we agreed. But I told them, you know, so let's, let's, let's, to save you folks some time. This is what our ask is. If, if you want to do this, what our requirement is, is we'd like to have 22 million for exploration, geothermal exploration on the island. And we'd like to have a culture center above the clouds. And that would cost 33 million. And then they signed the date they agreed. And we signed a letter of intent in the mayor's office. So whether or not that happens, it's just a letter of intent. Yeah, we're not, we'll see how that happens. And they'll be in town in about a month. So we can have that detail of discussion. But if that doesn't work, you know, if everybody knows that, that the budget is kind of tight, yeah, where's the money going to come from? The university doesn't have that in their budget, just extra. But you know what, I bet we could get, you know, like the rock or Jason, right? The rock. Yeah, you know, that kind of money. He's not going to be good for 50 million now, actually, Richard. Maybe, you know, well, it's 30 something million. I'm pretty sure we can get the money privately. Because, you know, anyway, that's our thought. Yeah. If not, you know, we'll just have to try whatever we can. Yeah. Well, so you mentioned the university and whether or not, you know, it can participate in the funding, which I imagine it can't. It's under, it's under fiscal stress these days. And I think the legislature is actually cutting its budget. But the question is, you know, would the university be part of this? Would the university, you know, which has, you know, enormous educational resources, would they be involved in the teaching and the study in the cultural aspect? You know, the content that you deliver at the cultural center, would the university be involved? Oh, yeah, absolutely. You know, and that's the pipeline from the Hawaiian language school. Yeah, so it's a direct, yeah, absolutely. And the other thing you mentioned that I'd like to follow up on is geothermal, because you and I have talked about geothermal a number of times in the past, and I know you support it as I do. And I wonder what role geothermal offer that matter, which renewable energy would play, because, you know, you have been dedicated, passionately dedicated to renewable energy for as long as I know you. And don't you think this cultural center would operate on renewable energy and or geothermal as one example of renewable energy, just to, you know, demonstrate to the people who come that Hawaii is replete with energy resources? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I think it's related, you know, because what we're really looking for is with the energy from geothermal, as well as cultural center, about the clouds, we're looking to make a better life for future generations. So 25, you know, let's say a child is born today, 25 years will be 2046 is one year after we're supposed to be 100% renewable. Yeah, yeah, but but we have a choice right now. Okay, so let's let's take a solar industrial solar project that has a 25 year lifespan. So the kid now is 25 years old, that solar array that was built is 25 years old. So now that needs to come down and be replaced. That's about the life. So in that instance, you would have to replace it by bidding for the rare earth metals, minerals. So will the price be higher or lower? I'm pretty convinced that it'll be higher. Well, you don't know the technology could be better. You know, maybe somebody will invent something between now and then that would that would be more efficient, right? And therefore, ultimately cheaper per kilowatt. Yeah, but but technology is not energy. Technology makes it more efficient, true, but it's not energy. And here's the problem. We're living on a finite planet. Yeah, and we're our economic system tells us we have to have exponential growth. Exponential growth on a finite planet is not sustainable. Yeah, so so the way I see it, it looks like okay, so we're we're going to when that child is 25 years old, we got to replace it, the cost is going up, the electricity cost is going up versus if we had geothermal, the heat is free, and the heat will be free for one to two million years. So which one would you rather have for future generations? I'm thinking geothermal. And then, you know, when we're looking at future generations, you know, talking about cut the center above the cloud. Imagine this, you're so so Hawaiians are leaving the island, you know, to go to the mainland. After two generations, how grounded are those children? You know, they know they come from Hawaii, but how grounded are they? They could come to this place and just immediately feel what is Hawaii all about, but it has to be robust. It can't be an afterthought. And that's why we want something that's, you know, big and worthy of respect. Because this is what is about respect. That aren't there other, you know, places, cultural centers and, you know, features and museums and the like, where Native Hawaiian culture is exhibited? Would this be, this wouldn't be the only place for sure. I mean, I'm thinking primarily of the Bishop Museum here in Honolulu, that, you know, there's a lot of Native Hawaiian culture there. So how would this work, you know, in coordination, if you will, with other museums, exhibits and cultural centers around the state? Well, you know, we've been having informal conversations with Bishop Museum. And, you know, just a general concept, they're all in, you know, you got to do all the technical stuff, but I could see them fitting in really easily. And what we want to do, too, is make it separate from the university. Make it so that it doesn't get caught up in the politics of it. You know, just do that as a way to respect Hawaiian culture and just separate it from the management of the mountain and all that stuff. That's very important. It's good that you're laying the groundwork for that now because that's always a risk when you have potentially competing organizations, even though they're nonprofit and historic and cultural, they can still get into competition. And one thing you mentioned that I last point I'd like to follow up on is, you know, this is, it has to be because of the money involved and the permits and so forth. And what I'm going to call it, the community. It has to be political. In other words, you have to be politically conscious of how, of the appetite for it and the willingness to spend the money and grant the permits and, you know, and champion the project. In Hawaii, you always need that. And I know you're well familiar with that. But, Querri, are there other legislators right now today who would champion this project, who would, you know, take a position on it and advance it politically? It's very sensitive, right? So I haven't, you know, we got to do it, you know, and if we, and we got to do it from the ground up, because if the people show that they're for it, we won't have any problem with politics. But right now, there's no volunteer that I can see because it's, because it's not clear, yeah? So once we start to make this clear, and it's only been a week, yeah? So once we start to make this clear that this is really about Hawaiian culture and this is really about Hawaiian's meeting, you know, then it's a different, total different of discussion. Well, it makes a lot of sense, Richard. I mean, people are leaving. Newspaper reported some 12,000 net loss last year. I don't know if that's COVID or the economy or a combination. Maybe it's the same thing. But Native Hawaiians among them, they are leaving, they are finding lives and occupations and homes elsewhere, building their families elsewhere. And this could be, especially on the big island, a rallying place, you know, a place that can offer them, you know, a home, a cultural home, if you will. I hope you can do it. I hope you can find the money. I hope you can find the political will and support in the legislature. And I hope you and I will both live to see the doors open, Richard. Yeah, okay. You know, I wanted to make one real important point. And that is going to Kikuhi's classes. The first thing you find out is this is not only about Hawaiians, this is about everybody that makes a way home. And that is a real important point. It's the essence of the state. And although the state changes and certainly the Native Hawaiian population and the community changes, the fact is we always have to remember it, because it is our origin and our special sauce. This is our special sauce you're talking about. Richard Ha, who is active in every which way you can think of, and I do want to follow up on this and all the other things we've talked about. So Richard, don't leave town. You can run, but you can't hide. We'll find you again. Thank you so much, Richard. All right. Thank you. Aloha.