 This is Think Tech Hawaii. Community Matters here. Good afternoon on a Friday, the last business day of the year. Wow, I'm Jay Fidel. This is Think Tech. More specifically, it's Think Tech Asia. And today we have one of our other hosts, Michael North. He's a managing partner of Asia Pacific Group. And his wife, Xiaofeng Zhou, she is also with Asia Pacific Group. And we welcome you to the show, you guys. Thank you. So we're going to talk about changes in China. You know, try to get to see changes because we live in a time when sometimes, you know, American politics get in the way of fully understanding what's going on in China. And I don't think people really understand how fast China moves, you know. Every time you look, it's different. You guys get to China pretty regularly. You can connect the dots. In fact, you just came back from China. And one of the things that you mentioned to me yesterday, Michael, which I wanted to cover, is a new attitude in China about immigration from other countries. I'm not sure it's a change in the law, but maybe a change in the policy. And if not a change in the policy, that's going to change in the attitude of the government and the people, you know, who can express how this works to people, for example, from the United States, who would like to spend time. I have long recommended that kids, I mean, young people out of high school and college, they want to have a gap year. They want to start their lives. They want to expose themselves to the world as it exists today. They got to go to China. The problem is so few of them do. And that may be, you know, because of a sort of a historic, historic conception of China. China, which is, they see it as dirty, where people follow you around and ask you for money, where the food is not so pure, and where the air is bad. You know, a place that may not be all that attractive to some young person who lives a reasonably good life, middle-class life in the United States. But here to tell, that's changing. It's changed. I mean, Russell Liu was on the show a couple of days ago and explained that he's been talking about this, that the air in Beijing is much better. That whatever the Chinese are doing, they are catching up. And those old problems that people saw, maybe still see, erroneously, have been largely resolved and China's moving forward. And one of the things you mentioned is that the immigration policy now would encourage young people to come to China, even make a life there. So I want to know more about that. Yeah, the change in immigration, its policy and its law and its practice is pretty important. And I think that it's emblematic of a number of other changes in China. You know, over the past number of years, I've seen China grow from being in a learning phase, an acquiring phase, to being a confident phase, and now to being assertive. China stand up. How do you say that in Mandarin? China stand up. China stand up. I knew you'd say that. One more time. China stand up. China stand up. I heard that. That's the famous words with which China was proclaimed to be a nation in 1949. And China has not only stood up, they've started to walk and they're running. And they're definitely in the race. And I just, you know, each morning in Beijing, I pick up a copy of China Daily to remain in touch with things. I read The Wall Street Journal and The New York Times too. But China Daily, and a couple of weeks ago, I spotted this story that I had heard some things about, but it really locked it in. If you don't mind, I'll have to be reading a couple of shark quotes. This is from the China Daily. Yes, from the front page. To attract more top overseas talent, the administration has made joint efforts with the Ministry of Human Resources and Social Security, as well as the Ministry of Public Security to simplify the visa application process from weeks to five days. Other preferential policies including lowering the threshold for permanent resident applicants have also been adopted. In the report, Xi Jinping, the president of China, said, we should value people with talent, be good at identifying talent, have the foresight to employ them, be earnest to keep them, and welcome them into our ranks. Another official says that applications for work permits from foreign experts whose skills are in urgent demand, as well as top talent in all fields, will be streamlined next year to attract more talent. So these preferential policies reveal the country's openness and inclusiveness, which are great power to demonstrate to the world. Who owns China Daily? It's a government publication. It's checking. The Ministry of Information. But they express policy on behalf of the government. They express ideas. When you look at the cover of it, it's sort of like USA Today and The New York Times. There's features from all over the country. There's ChinaDaily.com.cn is a good bookmark to have on your computer. And if you want to see sort of how the other half lives, it's a very good barometer. And of course, one recognizes that it is official policy declared by the government of China. So one takes it with a grain of salt, because one takes what the Washington Post says with a grain of salt as well. Because they have an agenda. They have an editorial viewpoint. And there are many different views. Well, I think there's a lot of media in this country, good and bad, who do China bashing even now. And that doesn't encourage young people to go to China when they see that happen. It's out of ignorance. It's out of the fact that they haven't been there. And even those who have been there have been to Tiananmen Square in the Great Wall. And they've gotten a surface impression. The way you might get an impression of America by going to Times Square and taking a quick walk through Central Park. Of course, Times Square and Central Park are wonderful and beautiful, but that doesn't define America any more than the tourist spots in Beijing define China. And so, Al Fang and I, living and working there pretty consistently over the past seven years, we've gotten a window into what China really is. And of course, Al Fang was born there. She was born... She's seen these changes, these sea changes. She was born within a few blocks of Tiananmen Square and has lived in America for 30 years and is the U.S. citizen now. So she's one of those rare people who has a really thorough, deep understanding and love for both countries and can effectively bridge. So without talking about her too much, let's... How do you feel? There are... Who's that artist? There was a lot of press about him, China artist. We've spent a lot of time in the U.S. And he was treated badly in China because he's very vocal about his views. Wei Wei... Wei Wei? Wei Wei, yeah. I mean, there are situations in China. Tell me if I'm wrong. Even today, even with the economic prosperity and all this and new policies where people aren't treated well because of their political views, is that still true? Well, I think it's... It depends on where you stand. Where is your point? See China. There's a negative, there's a positive. And the positive people will see, even see the challenge will be in a positive way. Because, you know, China is just like the U.S. We have challenges, we have issues. But people are people. We're all the same, face the same challenges. I feel just being living there for the last, almost two years, I really feel there's so much opening in China. Changing, becoming more open. Yes. And people are talking... You know, they're pretty much talking everything. And people are happy. This is really important. And they talk with their field, how they feel. This is very different than, you know, 30 years ago. People don't like to talk much about their feelings. But now they're talking openly. So you won't get thrown in jail if you speak your mind against the government? Yeah. It's from, you know, from the internal. They're happy. Yeah. And they express that, you know, opportunities. And the growth. Yeah. Yeah. Somehow this is rooted in the notion that if the government is serving the people well, that is creating prosperity, providing, you know, all the necessaries for them to live well. And the people don't complain. They like it. They're happy. They're happy with the government and the country. But on the other hand, I think rooted in the Chinese culture, political culture, if you will, if the government is not providing for them, then the people have the right to upend it. Yes, as we do here. Well... Just open the paper here and you'll see every single day people saying, America is on the wrong path. We're doing the wrong thing. And, you know, people have legitimate concerns and felt psychological concerns. You know, there's great injustice still in America to African-Americans and people of races other than the Caucasian, right? And there's, now we have a new awakening of women to see themselves in a truly equal light, which we thought we were all the way there to equality, right? But we realized that we really had some more steps to take. Yeah. So that, does that mean that the government of the United States is failing its people and needs to be overthrown? No, it means that we need to speak, we need to exchange, and we need to have constructive criticism and grow. And I think within some limits, China is coming to that confident recognition of itself, that criticism is not necessarily destructive. They understand they've come from a time, you know, in the last hundred years when they were emerged from feudalism, you know, dominated by centuries of the dead hand of the emperor into a revolutionary time where they were a republic, into an ultra-revolutionary time where they freed themselves from multiple colonial empires, simultaneously fighting off invasions by the Japanese, and finally somehow became a country which was destitute on day one. People were starving, they were sick, they couldn't move through the country, there was no business, no universities, they came from almost nothing after all that revolution and struggle in 1949, and look where they are now. What happened with the Cultural Revolution? I need to ask you that. The Cultural Revolution was not a step forward, it was a step backward. I guess the most amazing thing is that China survived the Cultural Revolution and came out just fine, but it's not that long ago, it's not within loss of memory. Let me say this about that. The Cultural Revolution was based on a profound ideological revolution. They wanted to completely leave behind the feudal past, the past of exploitation, the past in which there were signs on stadiums in China that said no dogs, no Chinese. They wanted to blow all that away, and everything had to go. The good with the bad, it all had to be destroyed in order to build a new world. And of course they went way too far, and it was cruel, it was brutal. And there were huge mistakes made in the process of trying to make that, and it wasn't a revolution, an economic revolution, it wasn't even a social revolution. It was a psychological revolution. The right to set aside that dependency and that vulnerability, that sense of being a third class citizen that many people in China had. And fortunately there were enough people in the leadership of China, led by Zhou Enlai, who we've talked about him before, who had the good sense to preserve the best of the past while allowing the revolutionary winds to blow. During that period, Michael, it was closed door. I mean, there was no room for anybody from the outside during that period. And I think that notion actually succeeded, continued after the Cultural Revolution. And it was not until, I forget that the leader who did this, but who opened it up economically and said, come on in, let's do business. Unchamping. Unchamping, yeah. So a question, Michael mentioned about Zhou Enlai. I've always had an affinity for Zhou Enlai since I wrote my class paper about it in 1953. I thought he was a great guy. How would I then know that here today I'd be sitting with his granddaughter? That is saying something. But let me ask you, how has it been for your family since the time of Zhou Enlai? Well, first of all, I'm a grandniece of Zhou Enlai. Grandniece, okay, let's get that straight, yeah. And as a family member, we're no different than any other ordinary family. We don't feel ever special because I was born in 1963 during the nature disaster. And then starting the Cultural Revolution. So I never really met him. Through my father and the family members, I learned about Zhou Enlai. And from school, the paper, you know, studying. So we grew up just like other ordinary family. How was it for your family? How did they do in the Cultural Revolution? How did they do in business? How did they do in connecting with the government? Well, they're just ordinary people. And my father sent to countryside. I was, you know, maybe eight years old. And I was having a blast by visiting him in countryside and meet all those pigs and horses and dogs. I loved it, you know. So I grew up without any deeper understanding, I guess. You know, still to be able to see my father, I didn't know what was happening. But after growing up, especially now, I've been living in China and I thought about that question, you know, during the Cultural Revolution. You have a little bit of deeper understanding. You know, even every country, they have to go through their own path. It's a human condition, isn't it? Yes, yes. And to see what China come out from that, you know, how strong the nation become. Yeah, that's really remarkable. It's one of the great miracles of our time in our generation to see what happened. Exactly. And I want to, after this break, when we come back, what the opportunities are right now, all that considered, all the history and the economic success, this change in policy, this change in global vision that Xi Jinping is bringing, I mean, it's kind of a special time. And I want to examine how an American kid, now, instead of like five or ten years ago, now can take advantage of those things, would be right back with Michael North, and sorry, I'm going to say don't shout Ping, but I'll say Xiaofan Zhou. Thank you. Aloha. I'm Kili Akina, and I'm here every other week on Mondays at 2 o'clock p.m. on Think Tech Hawaii's Hawaii Together. In Hawaii Together, we talk with some of the most fascinating people in the islands about working together, working together for a better economy, government, and society. So I invite you into our conversation every other Monday at 2 p.m. on Think Tech Hawaii Broadcast Network. Join us for Hawaii Together. I'm Kili Akina. Aloha. Hello, everyone. I'm DeSoto Brown, the co-host of Human Humane Architecture, which is seen on Think Tech Hawaii every other Tuesday at 4 p.m. And with the show's host, Martin Desbang, we discuss architecture here in the Hawaiian Islands and how it not only affects the way we live, but other aspects of our life, not only here in Hawaii, but internationally as well. So join us for Human Humane Architecture every other Tuesday at 4 p.m. on Think Tech Hawaii. You know, the thing about China and every other country, especially in the last 100 and... 118 years, is that heroes come and go. And sometimes they remain heroes forever. People always respect them, you know, for millennia forward and sometimes no. Sometimes it's a sine curve up and down. And, you know, I'm aware that that Joe Enlai had his ups and downs, too. And his memory has had its ups and downs, too. It's very interesting. But at the bottom of it, at the base, right now, in 2018, he's a hero, you know? Am I right? Very highly. There's nobody going to run him down right now. He is a people's premier. And he passing 42 years and people still in... You know, next year, it will be his 120th birthday. And the whole nation will celebrate. Yeah. And I want you to know that I am not changing a word of my paper that I wrote in 1953. I'm sure it was perfect. Which is a statement of admiration for him. Anyway, let's talk about the opportunities now. You know, I went to China for the first time in 2004. Okay? I was just amazed with the energy and the vitality of the place. Everybody I saw, everything I saw was all completely vital. I've never seen anything like it anywhere else in the world. There were still rough edges and all that. But each time, I've been there three times, each time I was there, I noticed that the rough edges were smoother now. I noticed that life was a little better for the average person. I wouldn't say the average Joe, but that's your family name. Yes, it is. So I want to know how it is. I mean, for example, we went to a neighborhood in Shanghai which looked like it was in New York or Washington, which had tables on the street with umbrellas and restaurants and bars and all these middle-class, up-and-coming kids, people. They were having such a good time. It was global. It was world-class. And it was a statement of possibilities of economic adventures for the up-and-coming generations. And I'm sure it's like that now today. So you can have a good life, right? There are neighborhoods that are indistinguishable from Brooklyn. Yeah, yeah. That are some of our favorite neighborhoods. There are neighborhoods that are indistinguishable from Rhode Island, too. And there are rough places and there are rural places that have been largely untouched by all this prosperity and there's a concerted effort to try to close that gap. Let's not have a rosy vision that everything is perfect in a nation of nearly 1.4 billion people. But there are certain things that are fundamental that are actually working pretty well. Number one is it's safe. It is safe. Not a lot of crime. It is safe and it's not dirty and people don't throw you in bags for people. And the food is reasonably good. The food is great. The food is incredibly varied. You know, here in America, normally we have Cantonese food with a little Sichuan on the head. But in China, there are a hundred different varieties of food and so many different ingredients and spices and ways of preparing them. You never have the same meal type. Yeah. And there are great places to live. Reminiscent of Manhattan. Maybe the best parts of Manhattan. So I guess the question is how do I get into this? How do I take advantage of this? Especially a view of this new policy expressed in China News. How do I get started? Where do I go? Who do I talk to? What website do I review? Is it real? Is it going to be easy for me? Or do I have challenges? And you know, in the past, there were challenges. I would not be accepted very well. They had to determine that I, and you mentioned this in reading that article, I had to be valuable to the state. I had to be skilled. I had to be a special person. Not dissimilar from a lot of the categories of immigration status here in this country, too, by the way. But how much of a barrier do I have to climb in order to get into the middle class in China? Live there. Work there. Enjoy Shintendi in Shanghai. Shintendi. Shintendi. That neighborhood with the tables and the Chinzano umbrellas and all that stuff. So what do I have to do to get there? Well, for you, Jay, it would be relatively easy because you have training as a lawyer. And that's the skill that is very much there. You know, our mutual friend, Roger Upstein, is going to be spending three or four months there next year at AY University in Beijing as a visiting professor in international law. And that just happened through a referral and he went there, met the dean last week, and he's been accepted and it'll be there probably as long as he wants to be. That's the question I wanted to ask you. I mean, let's make Roger forgive us. Let's make Roger a case study here, okay? He's got his papers. He's got his job. It's all good. It's not going to make him rich, but it'll make him, you know, comfortable enough living in Beijing. And he can stay there, as you say, for as long as he wants, because he's a real good lawyer and a good teacher. But what happens when he, quote, retires? What happens when he's not working anymore? What happens when his current, you know, visa, whatever visa it is, was a tourist visa, education visa, distinguished visitor, what is it? What happens when that expires? Is he going to have to leave? It'll be a visiting professor visa. And yeah, he would need to have enough funds saved, enough retirement to support himself, because he wouldn't be participating directly in the social security system in China. Same way. Because if I go there, I'm not going to participate in that either. That's not for me. It's for people who were born in... You participated in the social security system in China? No, not in China. Here. It's better. You know, it's not guaranteed here either, you know. But you could get a working permit. Yeah. Yeah. If I get a working permit, do I then begin to develop a retirement in China? No, I don't know. Yeah, I'm sure there is. But it depends on your contract, I think. If you're a foreigner, maybe you're not eligible. See, what I'm really asking about is, you know, China people come... In fact, they come from all over the world to the U.S. and they make a life like you. They become citizens. They make a life. They find a way to live the life they wanted to have right here. And the U.S. up to this point, I'm at this point where I'm kind of a pivot right now, but at this point, you know, it's pretty available. It's pretty good. And I wonder if this is ever... If it's possible now in China and whether it will be, you know, is this opening the door to the point where I can say in five years it'll be better. In five years it's more likely. And I should tell my young son that when he's finished with high school or college, he takes his gap year, he should go straight away to Beijing, get the papers in his, go to Beijing, get a job, you know, find an apartment and invest himself in that country. Now is the time when the door has finally really begun to open for a fort. And, you know, especially with creative talent, people who are artists, who are filmmakers, who are in the media, people who are writers, people who are translators and teachers of English. Oh, that's really an impact, man. And almost anybody who speaks English reasonably well and has some liberal arts education can teach English. I have a nephew who went to China by himself for a summer vacation. Years ago, landed in Shanghai, got a job, he's teaching in a primary school. He speaks very little Chinese even to this day. But they love him because he has such a great manner with people and he's so demonstrative and he has always interesting ways to introduce new words. And the fact that he speaks no Chinese is actually an asset for him. So he never came back. He's been there for 13 years. He's happy in Shanghai. And the family keeps asking, when are you coming back? And he always says, no, maybe I'll try North Korean. Oh, Jesus. I'd hold up on that. He's one of those really daring people. And, you know, that 15 years ago or so, China was a very challenging place and only really extraordinary people could handle that high curve. But I think now, pretty much anybody with high energy and a belief in their talent, willingness to work hard, could find a way to contribute something. Am I going to be watched? Am I going to be on somebody's data screen? Am I going to be at risk of saying something, you know, in politics, doing something that's really not, you know, not acceptable to the government there and losing my papers and getting thrown out? Does that happen? Is that changing? I have no knowledge of that having happened to anybody that we know of the hundreds of people that we know who are there. So there is a firewall there, which makes it hard to get Google and YouTube and Facebook and stuff. And I think that that firewall will start to come down. That'll be very interesting. This is a great thing to watch. But I have one last question for you guys. You're an interesting couple, you know, because you speak English, maybe not so much Mandarin, speak Mandarin and plenty good English. You could live there. You know the place. You know the right place in people and businesses. You know the way things work. But here you are in the U.S. Why don't you move there and stay there? What's holding you back? Well, we actually have this year I've spent more than half my time in Beijing. We have a really nice home there. And I really feel like it's home. And I feel like Hawaii Kai is home too. So it's possible to have two sets of roots in the world and two sets of parents and relationships. And we invite people from there to come here. We've got a delegation coming here in a few weeks of friends from China. And Telfang and I are working on a student exchange program to bring young Chinese students here for a summer and work and live through University of Hawaii. So I don't think you have to see the world as an either or choice. Yeah, sure. That's the modern approach. And certainly China doesn't see that either. I mean, he doesn't see it that way. China is going global and it's very interesting to watch that. To me, that's the most remarkable change of all and it's all fairly recent. There's a young Chinese business entrepreneur, venture capitalist who lives in Vancouver, Honolulu and Shenzhen. And he moves frequently between those three and stays in Airbnb's Bed and Breakfast in all three places. He has one big suitcase and he has no home whatsoever. His home is a suitcase. Why? What makes him do that? Because he has business opportunities that are Canada, US and China. And he wants to cross-fertilize those opportunities. So what kind of a person should do this? You know, not everybody is good at going to another culture. Not everybody is good at immersing himself or herself in another culture, especially in China. It's different. I think it's clear to me that some people like you are going to enjoy this. This is going to be a revelation and a great gratification for you to be able to keep a foot in both camps that way and see the global process. But what can you distinguish from me? What kind of person is going to be able to do this and what kind of person is not going to be able to do this? I think for people in the 21st century has a global vision. You want to really understand the other side because those people are part of us as well. So to really understand China, for instance, you need to be there and the living and then see through your own eye and through your own experience to understand better maybe yourself, maybe for the work you do. It's always a good thing to get to know yourself, your own country and the others. See what is out there. I have one last question. I'll address it to Michael. And then we've got to go. Michael, see that camera one over there? That's Donald Trump. I'd like you to give him your advice on what his policy ought to be toward China. You should recognize that China is the most natural partner for America. From the fundamental instincts of people to be entrepreneurs, to build businesses, to create new things and to explore new areas of mind and heart, China is a place where there are 1.4 billion customers for America, 1.4 billion partners for Americans to be a tremendous amplifier of American prosperity if we form relationships with them personally, culturally and in business that are founded on the principles of mutual respect and understanding and a willingness to step outside one's own skin and see how things look from the vantage point of another person. I would say that we are at a historic opportunity point with China, which is now reaching out across the world with their One Belt, One Road policy to, there's now nearly 60 nations that are participating in this unprecedented growth outreach by China across the planet and America has also reached out across the planet historically since our origins we've reached out and we've participated in the growth of many of the nations in the world and we've respected for that and now there's a partner that's doing the same thing Michael Norris Xiaofeng Zhou both of Asia Pacific Group, so nice to talk to you there's more to come, there's an exciting time thank you so much Xie Xie Thank you, happy new year Happy new year Xinyan Paila