 a lot of service workers are like no and you want to create a better model and we actually want to create a system. An awesome shift is happening where that's becoming less tolerable for staff to have to put up with that and there's strategies that we're going to get into and talk about. Yeah and then toxicity. So you have this cool culture of like yes we have a family, yes we can build, we have jokes, this banter happening, but then when it goes to an abusive place or a toxic place is when you have the abuse of power either with customers or inside management supervisors. You have unwanted behaviors such as touching or toxic joking gone too far at the expense of others. The locker room banter in the back of house like can be usually showing that the like toxic masculine you know dynamic where there's a lot of sexist jokes or like a little bit sexism, misgendering, unwanted comments etc. Like we're seeing more of that in the back of house as like that kind of like brodude like culture has a welcome of climate and so yeah and so and that's when these harmful behaviors come become norm. So yeah I just wanted to build that picture that's what we're talking about that's what we're here to talk about. I'd love to like hear from who's here and what your experience is and like fill in what I didn't name, what else do you know about the culture and just like the good and the bad like what's happening and yeah what's your experience and why is this an interesting topic to you? Well I guess every so often I hear stories about a restaurant where there's the boss or the manager or or there's some type of harassment or assault happening and then usually I don't hear much more about that story so then so then so then there's not much follow-up and then and then it's sort of it it fades when when of course I believe I believe it's still a concurrent problem it just hasn't hasn't made the the media or whatever for a while. Yeah yeah thanks I do like I work at Woodbelly and we do a lot of catering and we have had lots of experiences where it's like a wedding and people are drinking and partying and having a good time and then like somebody's creepy uncle just like crosses the line and grabs someone's butt or just is like encroaching on our space and ever since I've worked there we've had a really good culture of like we have a big keel that like goes in the 800 degree oven and people will like kind of hold it and brandish it and like tell people to leave and they do and so there's like a real sense of camaraderie like there's not as much distinction between front of house and back of house because we're all a crew we're all working together yeah and I've always felt pretty supported at that job by like the masculine people and like everyone but and I've had moments where I've been in a position of power and like had an opportunity to be a good bystander and where I felt like I kind of missed the mark and the moments where I felt like I stood up to my potential and like showed up for my people and so that is like an element of like interacting with customers and um wedding goers and like we have a pretty strong perspective of like we're kind and professional to the people who come in and also we're not subordinate to them they're coming in to buy our products we're serving them at their wedding like we don't have a customer as always right perspective um which I really appreciate um and we have a thing like a in our contracts that we sign with wedding clients an addendum where we can stop service at any time if any of our staff are like made to feel uncomfortable which like we haven't had to do but when it does when that does happen we do our best to respond and center the person who was made to feel uncomfortable and support them how do you do that so there was an instance where um a young woman's butt got grabbed at a wedding and she was like going into bus and was in this like very crowded barn and didn't know who did it um and so we pulled her off front of house and let her stop serving and take as much time as she needed um to like drink some water and breathe and we didn't have much expectation for her the rest of the night but she didn't have to keep serving um and because we didn't know who that person was we couldn't like I wasn't at that event um but I I think that we tried to minimize harm by pulling that person out of that space and um we'll go to the event coordinator like the point person not like the bride or groom but the person who is like one of their friends or family members and tell them that this happened and that if their people don't stop acting like fools we will leave and stop service um so I like that you in in a lot of um you know conversations I have with people about like you know how do you respond to like an incident of harm like one of the first things that we usually say is like we'll ask the person what they need but I think in the case of like when you're a service worker and like you've been constantly operating under this like any kind of worker really it's like it's my job and right now my job is testing me and we don't often like you know it's just like okay I'm just gonna plow forward and so I think that that's a really good way to empower people to to feel like they can piece out of their work even though it's like yes I'm here to do this job but I was actually harmed in this situation and my job is willing my work is willing to hold that space for me and that's awesome and yeah and I wonder if more more of us who are in places that don't hold those systems of accountability like can feel brave enough to ask for that space too because that's what's hard to do is when you're in that moment of like I gotta not go out there yeah thanks for sharing that and I mean there's been there's like other dynamics of like interpersonal like you were talking about where people have felt uncomfortable or like have felt as though the dynamic has gone too far among certain workers and we have workers who are in high school and yeah so just sort of like navigating that and holding space for people who feel uncomfortable and then checking in with people who are sort of contributing to the dynamic of discomfort yeah and had meetings with like that where it's like sitting down and being like hey people aren't comfortable with the way that you're behaving yeah yeah good so you have some inside accountability practice that's happening yeah that's great and it's messy you know it's like hard to know how to do it exactly right yeah and sometimes we have to be messy like when we don't know and have systems in place you know it's kind of getting cozy with that discomfort of like this doesn't feel I love I just have to reflect back to Lisa Scanlon's training on the wheel of consent it's really interesting oh yeah I was thinking about that yeah I had to I was reminded that the way that I usually operate is that I don't usually ask for what I need that you know it's usually me giving like I'm like I'm more of a giver than I am a receiver and I think that that when we're when we're making big changes in our world like especially in the food and beverage industry where there isn't these systems in place we have to learn to ask for what we need and that's not an easy thing for a lot of people I think a lot of people are in the place of like saying yes all the time and not being like no actually I can't do that and this is what I need so I think that being able to practice you know that's what we're here today to learn and build some skills around is being able to understand that consent isn't just about consent and boundaries isn't just about like having a relationship or romantic partnership or sex you know it's also relating it's just relating in the world and how to communicate better and how to name your boundaries and know know when they're being violated and yeah and not respected and so I'm really glad that we're all here showing up to do this yeah so I want to lead us to excuse me let me take a drink I want to lead us into some questions can I share just another thing about the culture yeah please so yeah at my work I'm a worker owner of woodbelly and I'm like the newest worker owner but I've been in a position of power there as like a manager for the last like year and like since before the pandemic as like an event lead and I feel like especially as like an old like I'm in my 30s like a lot of our workers are in 13s and 20s like I just feel sensitive and awkward about the banter sometimes because like a lot of the jokes that I'm making are with people who are a lot younger than me and so as like a person with power in the business I try to just think about that a lot and like think about the ways that my like I need that camaraderie and relationship to it's like a very cortisol based work environment and the banter is like a real like medicine yeah I love that it's like the stress loop you know but just like yeah as a person of power trying to check in and be like hey am I crossing the line like please tell me and it kind of you know takes away some of the fun but like the discomfort is already there inside of me where I'm like I have a lot of neuroses and self-consciousness so just like checking in a lot and being like hey the stereotype is that the boss intentionally does these things to hurt people's feelings yeah yeah I love that and it's I mean again the parallel with like yes we know this about sexual relationships like okay like we still have to check in from time to time is this still okay but we forget to do it in our friendships and in work relationships and professional relationships of like oh yeah that's important to keep that practice happening so I had a question I want to turn to you again and I also have some feedback on it but so what strategies specifically does would Billy have in place to to dismantle systems of toxicity or to support their staff and incidents I mean you named one of them at that one event that you had which is really great but do you can you name like times other times or like specific policies or values that you have in place that help create that environment yeah yeah um so after that persons but got grabbed we put in all of our contracts moving forward that we reserve the right to stop service at any time if our workers feel uncomfortable and that isn't like the first step that we take but it's like the last step that we'll take if other things can't be met yeah um we have a non-harassment policy that we take pretty seriously that people sign when they are hired with woodbelly around discrimination and harassment and abuse that includes like um discrimination on basis of like ability gender identity sexuality race and that type of thing awesome um and then I think it's pretty natural like a lot of the people that work with us are queer and trans and so I think there is like I don't really hear people say like hey ladies or whatever like people just say hi welcome y'all welcome folks and um it's just kind of second nature which is really nice that's good yeah and yeah I feel like there's I had an event when I was like an early event lead where we were um down in killington and it was like a welcome party and it was like a very bro-y vibe and they were like throwing the football and I think they intentionally threw it at my co-worker and I hit her in the ass and like it hurt her really bad like it brought tears to her eyes and the way I responded was I just like yelled like what the fuck and then I like felt inside of me like like I went silent inside I didn't know what to do um because it was like me and her and like I think one other femme human and um I just felt like I could have done better um and then like I could have been more explicit you know and um I think that the party people came over and were like apologizing and asking what they could do and I got them to get us like sodas and uh-huh but um and like told them that that can't happen again or we'll leave I think but like it was one of those moments where like I felt like I could have done better and I like reflect on that a lot um yeah and like how to do better as a bystander um I think that's what we all struggle with that is is is that like it's hard to not be reactive number one when you're especially if you are a value-spaced person and you know that someone just was violated or harmed in some way it's like you just want to be like no you know or like hmm but learning that skill of like okay what's the right like that you know pause and reflect moment um is the first thing that I try to go to personally it doesn't like I'm not perfect of course like but it's just like pausing and being able to find that you know if it's a call in or a call out um and so that's maybe a good place to be like I have some other things but I wanted to introduce um Seth I gave you this is interrupting bias this was by the seed the way Rebecca I forgot her last name um developed um but it's really great it's it gives you a bunch of examples that I have studied this from time to time when I'm like okay I'm actually don't know what to do in this moment or like it's past it happened yesterday and I'm like I wish that I had said it sounded like you just said blank is that what you really mean like I could have just said that that's a simple thing um you know or like in your example like going over like I wonder if you meant to throw that at that person and hurt them like you like calling that you know calling it in that way like having like these canned responses prepped and ready to go has helped me up my game a little bit but oftentimes I'm going back and I'm like okay I could have said this like and sometimes you have that opportunity too to go back you know especially if it's someone you work with and it's sometimes better to go back after you're not pissed and want to yell at them and you know just call that back and like hey what happened yesterday blah blah blah like it made me feel this way like really angry and frustrated like I expected you would be respectful of that person's pronouns or whatever it is and so calling in is that way of like trying to create more space and hope stretch it out open it up see where they're coming from see if there's a point of education and learning versus like a shaming and you know that that reactive reactivity response that we have that can actually shut someone down and make them less open for learning and understanding whereas calling out is um a little bit more of a like I love their examples here but I always go to calling out is like the old hell no like I we actually need to like stop this like moment and look at what you just said you know you just said a really homophobic remark in front of this person who's standing here right now like let's let's break that open and sometimes you can like you know a call in and call out there's a fuzzy line but definitely times when you're feeling like this moment calls for a response and in a reaction from community that is that's not okay and so these are some really good tips doing that so I just wanted to bring that up in this moment because I felt like that's what we were talking about yeah that's awesome so on this handout um that I put together recently because we've had a lot of requests um I put the five d's of interrupting bias are really helpful to know um that you don't you don't have to actually like respond in the moment you can direct someone up to directly address the incident is direct um distraction so there's also like you can drop you know play it on the floor and get you know it shifts the dynamic um or if you're at a party like flickering the lights and you know just someone who's like being abusive or whatever it'll just confuse the situation and hopefully stop it delegate sometimes asking a third party to come in and like help support you and like I don't really know what to do this thing happen can we process and figure it out together um delay is that taking the action after the fact so like I need to digest this and think of a response and maybe like you know talking to co co-worker management um documenting is as you know like we have a lot of social change when we can oh yeah everyone has a camera on their phone I'm like here you go this is what's happening right now in our kitchen um so yeah don't be don't be afraid to get out your phone and hit record yeah um um yeah so I I love those just thinking about like okay I don't I'm not actually so like I don't feel comfortable like I feel unsafe addressing this on my own but that's not my only option definitely I love that yeah I also love um the pause like hey can I pause you right there like sometimes just like saying hey can I pause you right there is enough for the person to realize like oh I'm so sorry because it's just like your obvious next remark is going to be something so I found when I've said like let's pause for a second it's a clear like you just said something and we need to pause and like look at that and if they're like yeah what it's like what did you mean like what did you mean by saying that like you know that's not a kind way to treat your co-worker or whatever yeah so the next thing that I wanted to do is like maybe reserve a little bit of this time um if I could find our questions here it is I don't I would love to also also hear from you sir do you have experience do you have friends or or stories that you've heard in the community or stuff that you want to share and bring into this conversation around like I I don't know much about it but a while ago there was I heard through the rumor mill there's someone some staff or maybe not naming yeah I know I won't name any names but there was some sexual harassment or assault happening and and then like I said that it wasn't it wasn't like I couldn't find any report on it or anything and it just went under the radar maybe the person was fired maybe they're still there you just don't know and I mean that I've heard other stories no other stories but then they're similar you know the business either closes down or it still continues and you just there's just not you just don't know what's going on right and so there's a part of like being a community member with that here is like do I want to continue to support this business yes that's correct you know and then we have cancer culture right where there's a fine line between transparency and accountability and like actually you know cancelling someone yes you know restorative transformative justice work like gives us the opportunity to call in like here we bring that call in again to call in and there are lots of different strategies I know I was hoping that the Montpelier community justice center does a lot of that work yes where they do a process where you can sit down with both parties and and work through those issues but it's true it's like we don't I mean it's kind of taboo in a way to talk about those sort of things but it's also you know how do we do that in a way that's not canceling a person like then you have the whole communities yes I'm not going there ever again but yet we're left hanging with this like did it get resolved yeah like what what happens can I go there now yeah um and so yeah and I I wonder if like a direct ask to someone confidentially like an email of like hey like I'd just like to know like what's your policy around this that makes sense yeah that's a good point yeah since ex-YRZ has happened back in 2016 or whatever like I want to support your business but I also want to know that you are accountable for your yeah I would be so nervous going up to the counter and asking directly because most probably yeah it's the the most probably the first time I'm directly asking isn't in any way a response I mean in most cases isn't responsible to someone in some back room somewhere yeah you know yeah yeah thanks it's a good question oh yeah sure yeah I feel like there is like a balance between like I want people to I want businesses and like projects to be able to have more transparency around that and like I feel like there is like a shroud of like shame around mistakes and when lines get crossed yeah and I feel like in some ways that is like healthy because it helps people to really take these mistakes seriously and like I feel like we need to be more humanizing of the ways in which the toxicity of the culture like manifests in our bodies and in our lives and just like find ways to talk about how we can do better and like yeah yeah we had an instance last summer where some people perceived the interactions between two co-workers one of them a minor and one of them like 10 years older as like the older person grooming the younger person and so these like younger but like adult people felt really uncomfortable and like triggered and like reminiscent of how they were treated in the service industry as like young people and the way that we handled that was we met with the person who was the older person and met with them and they had no recollection of anything but we gave examples and then made it so that minors and adults don't drive in the car alone together and that makes sense yeah I was supposed to meet with the younger person and then I just dropped the ball and didn't meet with them yeah because some other intense things happened and they ended up finding out about it and we met recently and worked through it and I was like responsible for not following up with them yeah yeah but yeah you definitely see a lot of because it you know there's such a huge wage gap in the service industry you have a lot of high school or high school students that you know it's their first job they're coming in they're fresh and new and excited to join the culture and then you have these you know older established folks and they're all becoming one family and friendships are forming but um yeah I've I've heard you know stories from my friends and the industry of just like knowing the right you know okay we actually shouldn't go out drinking together or like riding in the car like no I'm not going to drive you to this concert because it you know I'm 40 and you're 16 and that's just not a good like that was a a literal example from a recent story I heard from friends it's like yes you did the right thing that's probably a good idea and it helps the youngers understand that like that's not normal for you know that of course like interacting and being in community together is different but that there are times when like your co-worker relationships can get tricky especially when you have that power dynamic and the age difference and experience difference um so yeah yeah yeah it can get scrambled because often that a lot of uh I actually I don't even know but often a lot of sort of festival type things there's sort of a party that that the yeah that the caterers have together and it becomes a mess it doesn't become a mess but it can it can become a mess definitely that's true do we have any other um want to workshop something that has come up in your world that jeez I wish I said something different or like maybe you did maybe you were like I was able to step up and I said the right thing um or I could have done it better is there any um story you want to share or even a fake story to do a little workshop time like let's try it out let's try like see if we can use this handout I'm uh I'm not really in the service industry but I uh for a while I I was sort of running what what was sort of like a boarding house and and to to not go into a heavy detail there were a lot of strange dynamics that developed with a number of uh people you know living together that were in dire most of them were in dire strength yeah yeah yeah did you have um any moments where you felt like you were able to support or mitigate tension or harm or moments where you well I I I did the best I could but what happened is a lot of all of the tenets ganged up on someone that I had known you know since since I was a child and then it and and then it became a mess because the I sort of the right thing to do would be or the right thing to do in regards to the majority would be to listen to them but I didn't really want to so I put it put off addressing their concerns for as long as I could and then and then the situation just got worse and worse until I had to evict this first and I had known since I was a child and her partner that that was you know assaulting assaulting her and then I see I put them together on the same lease which was a mistake I I I should never have done that but but he wasn't paying anything she was paying paying all of it and they were you know cohabitating so I didn't really know what to do either either I could have said he can't come there at all because he's not paying or I don't know I mean I shouldn't you know put them on several races right and having like I think so bringing this to the example of like I can tie it into your sure you know tenant tenant situation sort of sure is that having policies in place yes I needed policies in place in contract or or that like what you were saying that you're I don't know if it's your personnel manual or whatever contract that folks sign when they come on clearly states x y and z it's like so you learn you know sometimes it takes like learning from example of you know okay we need to address this situation is coming up and like how do we present that from happening in the future yes um and one thing I wanted to mention too is that what I think is really wonderful and unique about wood billy is that because you have created these great systems you have an awesome work team that are already kind of like in line with the values and I've had this question from from other local restaurants and bars of like stuff is happening here like how do we change the culture like there's going to be pushback like if we do x y and z and try to bring in like you to do this bystander training or you know to come in with like changing our personnel policy there's going to be a lot of pushback like that culture is already there and that's a really good question you know it's like well you create the good systems and folks who are in alignment are going to show up and you know you might lose some folks but maybe that's for the best yeah that makes sense or maybe they're ready to change you know and they value and understand that it's not their fault it's a society they're raised in that forgot to teach them yeah that these things like a shift is definitely happening in our world and I love that you know I think the dark side is that cancel culture but that like radical like we need this change to happen now and like service workers aren't less than and just sort of equal you know respect of their boundaries yeah totally anything else before we close no but thank you yeah this is a good conversation thank you thank you