 Welcome back, it's still Business Insight and Plus TV Africa. Now, AMBEN says as an association, it's not a regulator and has no intention of usopping such powers. However, the SME side of the industry, which includes the agent, often bears the cost of operations, including the standard rates set by the CBN, even though they are registered under a provider, sometimes at a fee. It says the recent action in direct response to the current economic realities in the country aims to ensure that agents can continue to stay in business. Right now I have the Labor States Chairman of the Association of Mobile Money and Bank Agents of Nigeria, David Abiodu joining me right now to this course further. Many thanks for joining us on Business Insights and Plus TV Africa, Mr. Abiodu. Thank you very much for having me. All right. It is indeed a pleasure. Let's get right into it. There seems to be a bit of anxiety between operators, AMBEN, and of course even people who subscribe to your services. Tell us what is really going on. Just last week there were reports that AMBEN had increased ties in some state, including Lagos, and that just on Wednesday the FCC-PC came out with this, with a statement saying that it will prosecute any POS agent who goes about increasing the tariff. What's the situation as we speak? We have no intention to usurp the powers of the CBN as well as the providers. The prices for POS transactions are fixed. But as you all know, real business in Nigeria and Lagos state in particular requires a lot of, if I may put it, sacrifice. But it's a limit to the sacrifice you can absorb. And so at our last symposium, that was on June 22nd, before then we have met, we have looked at the cost of doing business, and we have looked at that if we don't do something about the costs to service, definitely we cannot remain in business. It's not possible. And as I speak with you, many of our members, about 70 percent, to be conservative, have close jobs. How do you cope? You have to buy data, you have to buy fuel, you have to pay staff, you have to transport yourself to the place, I mean to your shop, your outlet, you have to obtain loan and pay at an exorbitant interest rate. How do you cope? So it is in response to this, that we felt this day for us to adjust the prices at which we do business. That is number one. Number two, it was not just the price that we decided on at our symposium, we have looked at the financial inclusion industry very deeply, and we have observed some challenges, part of which include so many undesirable elements of commentary business, and that has been giving us serious concern. So we felt this need for us to arrest that also. So what we have done is to provide a means of identification. So we produced a banner, and on that banner we put the price. So we launched both the banner as well as the prices, the adjusted prices for our services on that June 22nd. We did that so that the public can have some measure of respite, measure of security, measure of confidence, while patronizing PS operators. We have received series of complaints from the public, and most of the times some of these complaints are medially from people who don't have any means of identification. They just come into the business, and on that note, we decided that okay, one of the ways we can arrest that is to have a means of identification. Okay, fine. Let me just butt in here. I understand the fact that there is need to and short control, and a bit of sanity on how your members of your association operate. We'll get into that, we'll get into the complexities of our operations of a mobile agent and bank agent. Okay, the question right now would be, is any form of uniformity across a board for members of AMBAN here in Lagos, because some operators charge as much as 100 nair for transactions and not above 500, then while others charge as much as 200 nair, what is the reality of things as we speak right now? Is there a price increment officially by AMBAN Lagos? Thank you very much. Once again, I'm happy to be here to put the record straight. Yes, everything we are doing is still at the level of sensitization. As we speak today, there is no where you will go, and the PS operators will tell you, oh, AMBAN has increased their prices, and so this is the amount you should collect. No. What we have done is to sensitize our members. We are still going to organize a task force so that the system that we are trying to put in place is not abused. If we don't do that, definitely people will abuse it. Let me just speak, let's say this. As a member of FISCO, that is Financial Inclusion State Steering Committee with CBN, we've had opportunity to meet with the CBN legal state branch on many occasions, and we've been confronted with this allegation that our members are charging the public, you know, exorbitantly. We tried to, you know, we tried to deny this, but that was why we decided that, okay, what we are going to do is let's have a uniform price, not only that, let's have a lease of identification, and then not only that, we also have a task force that will help us to, you know, monitor the system so that there will be no abuse. When we are done, we will now report back to CBN that, yes, this is what we have done, but as I speak with you, it is true we have pushed out information about new prices. But because we didn't want it to be abused, it is not yet enforced. If I can put it that way, it's not yet enforced. So do you have plans to enforce new prices anytime soon? Certainly, certainly I've told you that because without that, we cannot remain in business, and I'm really surprised because I suspected the regulatory authorities to invite AMBAR and find out what are you doing? Doing COVID-19, let me just digress a little bit. Doing COVID-19, you will agree with me that the POS operators saved the day. Without the POS operators, it would have been practically difficult for Nigerians to survive. I mean, when it comes to financial transactions, because you couldn't assess the banks, because of the restrictions enforced due to COVID-19. And after that, just recently, during the cashless policy, you will agree with me also that AMBAR played a major role. How did they play a major role? Very good. Because the truth is that most people are complaining that POS agents were actually making millions as it were because they were charging people through their noses. Thank you very much. I'm able to say that those who have been that are not AMBAR members. We have been to CBN, like I said earlier, this allegation was food before us, and we told the branch controller they are not a member. There's a difference. It's not everybody that are current POS about that are members of AMBAR. Because that's how it looks. It looks as if it's all commerce affair. Because almost every street you go, you see people with umbrellas, curious, parading themselves as registered agents. Thank you very much, Mr. Johnson. That is the reason why we are coming up with a list of identification. You should be able to identify yourself. And one of the ways to do that is to join AMBAR. And when you join AMBAR, we give you an ID card, we give you a certificate, and then we give you the banner. The banner is expected to be hosted because previously in your outlet. So that when people go there, they want to know, okay, you belong to an association. They also want to find out what is the pedigree, what is the quality. Who are the people behind the association? And that's why we have a website you can read, whatever you want to read about us there. So we are doing all this things in the best interest of the public. Security-wise, and then to also remain in business. I think we should not forget that fact. I see business insight in plus TV Africa. We'll take a quick break. I will still have a David Abioddo Lagos State Chairman of AMBAR. We're looking at the issue of pure S and transactions and operations. And of course, the much talked about and tariff increment in a moment. We'll write back to join us again. All right, welcome back. It's still business insight and plus TV Africa. We're looking at the financial inclusion driver, the federal government operations of our point of sale terminal agents, of course, mobile money agents as well. And of course, the recent talk of our tariff increment, how to ensure sanity in Lagos State and beyond. And there have been discussions with the Lagos State Chairman of AMBAR, Pastor David Abioddo. Thanks for staying with us, Mr. Abioddo. So the question right now would be, what is the rate as we speak? So if your customers are going to your kiosk to your stand, what should they be expecting? What are they expected to pay so they don't get manipulated or somehow hijacked by these operators? What should they be exposed at the official rates as we speak? Thank you very much. Yes, I would straight to the transaction types and then rates. Yeah, very quickly, please. We have for the withdrawal from 1,000 to 2,004, you pay 100 Naira. And then from 3,005 to 4,000, you pay 200. So that means it has been increased? That is where we are going. But as we speak today, from 1,000 to 5,000, you still pay 100 Naira. OK, I just want to be clear what is, what starts right now. And then from 5,000 to 10,000, you still pay 200 Naira. But as we all know, these rates are not sustainable. We can't remain in business with this. We have established that. I just want to understand what is right now. So over time, you can know what you are going to. That's what I've just said. So above 5,000 and 10,000 is 200 Naira. 200 Naira. OK. And then from 10,000 to 15,000, you pay 300. And then from 15 to 20, you pay 400. And some even pay less than that. Some pay 300. It's negotiable sometimes. But I need to also say this, that what we have done is silly. That you are not expected. No P.S. operator is expected to go above that. So even with the recent, I mean, the adjusted rates, that's where we are going, that you will not be permitted to go above that. Like during the cashless policy, you will agree with me, we have sort of terrible people. They say 10,000, so people charge as much as 2,000. 2,000, yes. 3,000 or 10,000. So we want to prevent that. OK, now, but the question right now would be, like I said before, I took that break. Nigerians are actually filling the bronze or the fuel subsidy removal. Everything has skyrocketed. Crisis of commodities in the open market. But shouldn't there be a sort of alternative? Maybe in your meetings at your Cisco level, at the CBN level, so that the cost implication on you as regards to charges you pay can actually be reduced as opposed to increasing or dumping it as it were on consumers? Definitely there should be. But I need to say this. It's not just the POS charges that we should be complaining about. I think I'm happy that the FCCPC, yes, I'm happy that they have come up to challenge what we are trying to push to the public. But I will expect them to touch other areas. Sir, you will agree with me. Whatever should they touch? Every other sector, the barbers have increased. The volcanizers, they have increased. What are you going to buy now? Everything has gone up. Before I could move from where I was to this place and I know how much I pay. And so it's not just the POS issue. I think it should be holistic. OK, so this issue right now, is it like POS operators, they pay more now to be able to access cash from the banks for operation or how? Definitely, in that sense. Very good. If you are to spend, let's say, 100,000 in a day, you may have to visit the bank like two or three times. If you have more customers, let's say, you have to pay out about 500,000, you may have to visit the bank three times a day. Most of the time, the argument right now because I have to speak at your national level. Let me finish. No, you will speak. I have to speak at your national level. They said that most of the times it is for people, maybe who are a bit far from where the banks are localized, that may be expected to have some sort of complaint as regards to have maybe paying transportation to get to the bank to withdraw. But otherwise, people who stay close or agent, who stay around the bank, do they have or incur any extra cost? Thank you very much. Transportation is just one component. How about the cost of others? Like the debtor, like... Has the debtor charges increased? Everything, everything has increased. The loan, I told you that we are paying loan. I want to pay back with interest. Before you buy it to power your generator to charge your terminus, has it not increased? Which one has not increased? So if government or regulatory authorities want to arrest the situation, it should be holistic, that's number one. Number two, just like you have asked, yes, there can be direct palliative. There can be direct palliative to peer agents. Like one of our national officers said, most of the providers, they get grants, both locally and internationally. So they can absorb all the costs. Even for 10 years, they have no problem. But for an average peer agent who goes about doing his business on a daily basis, it's not easy there. Okay, so as we... It's not easy out there. So begin to round off right now. I'm sure you've been having stakeholders meeting on the national level, because I understand initially when this talk of an increase, or tariff increase came on board, it was just about legals and those states on one or the state. So what's the situation at the national level? Are you organizing yourselves as stakeholders to have meetings to further headsets at the release issued by the FCCPC? Thank you very much. Yes, very definite. Very definite. We've heard, we've had meetings, you know, over and over. We've tried to look at the situation and we are responding. I will still continue to respond. What has happened in the few states you have just mentioned is meant to take place throughout the entire country. Like I said earlier, Amban is a national association. And so every state are meeting with the stakeholders, the members and everybody will be coming up with their position anywhere from now, because what is happening is affecting everybody. And so what we have done is in response to the reality of doing business in Nigeria and in Lagos in particular. So the government, they should invite us. Let's discuss. That's very important. Let's discuss. We'll tell them why we are coming up with this idea. And if there's anything they can do, like I've said, if they want to do direct palliative for us, why not? We can decide not to even collect a dime on transaction. Okay, so as we round up now, just to be clear, so right now you are maintaining status quo. Of course. Okay, just to be clear. So I have been speaking with the Lagos State Chairman of the Association of Mobile Money and Bank Agents of Nigeria, Pastor David Amabio. Many thanks for being a part of the show. Thank you very much. All right, just before we go, Ghost Mode Digitization is a panacea to a financial service security and all that bottlenecks. It is an innovation by Fintech to ensure privacy as well as solve the dual challenge of protection and security. I will leave you with details of that report. I am Justin Akadene. See you again next time. Bye for now.