 The motion to approve the agenda. I'll second. Have we are we live on. Oh, okay. Yeah. I'll second that. All right. So we have a motion and a second to. The discussion. All those in favor. Bye. Bye. No, the chair is second. Vice chair. No, the chair is second. Vice chair. So we have a motion to approve the agenda. And then we have Aaron. Kizaki. Joining us momentarily in person. The first. In person planning commission. Over three years. All right. Those miles. Yeah, I think March, March, 2020 would have been the last. Last five meeting. I think I didn't make the last. Personal name, but I just launched it on. Yeah. Oh, there's a case in beddington. It's like that weird time when none of us wore masks, but we washed our hands. Yeah. Wiped our mail. General business comments from the public about something, not on the agenda. Any members of the public. Yeah, unless we bring his daily back. It's probably the best we don't. Yeah. Which then brings us to review of our community service. Implementation strategy. Chapter. Yeah. I don't know if you want to pull that. I can pull that up. Through. In community services. And it's up there. So. I mean, I guess I'll just kick off the community services. This is going to be a little bit more of a challenging. You've, you've been through one of these with the public. Safety. Chapter where we had a lot of. Different subsections that we kind of had to work through. And community services is going to be the same. So our community services. Has our, as departments, we have the parks department, recreation department, senior center and cemetery. Cemetery is technically not part of community services. They're. They're separate, but we consider them. In spirit part of the community services. And then we also have a couple of other pieces that are also. We have in. Community services are. Work we do around homelessness. Well. Housing and making sure we have housing and perhaps a homeless shelter may fall into housing. A lot of what we do. To provide assistance to the homeless community is more a service than it is. Housing. So we have homelessness in here as well as. Conflict assistance, which is some services that are provided out of the community justice center. And child care, which is a required discussion point, but also the city of Montpelier provides. Child care through the recreation department. So we have it broken out as well. In here. So we have draft. Aspirations. And draft. Goals for some of them. And we only have strategies. So as we kind of start working our way through, we're going to end up with a little bit less, a little bit less. I still have to do. Homelessness conflict assistance and child care. But we thought we would take this opportunity to be able to go through some of the discussion points for the first four. Save the easier ones. Yeah. So. I guess by way of introduction, I guess everybody has been through this before. So we kind of have an understanding of the aspirations are our big piece. Then we break that down into smaller goals. And then eventually to. Into the actual action steps that are strategies. So if we have. You know, an aspiration of having safe and affordable housing. We would then have a goal for safe housing and a goal for affordable housing, because the strategies to make housing safe are different than the strategies we would have to make housing affordable. And then we would get into what are the strategies for each one. So that's why we kind of break it into these three pieces. And then. We have these for each, each piece. So parks, if you'll notice parks with a, so we have. Proposed three for parks, three for three goals, four goals for recreation. A number of goals for the senior center. And then we have some goals down here for cemetery. And this is the start of homelessness down here. And then just as we move into we would. These are what we've seen before. The. For the strategies. Creation strategies. And some. Senior center strategies. And then some cemetery strategies. So with that quick introduction. I don't know how we want to jump in if we want to start. We want to take parks first, or if we want to talk about all the aspirations first, or. We want to kind of move forward. With a quick review. Very good question. So you'll need to use your microphone just that way. Yeah. Yeah. That's so people can hear you online. I have two versions of this. I printed off one's. March 2nd, 2021. And this July 24th, 2020. What's, is there a more recent one. Or we're working off the. 2021. Whatever is on the drive. So both of them are. Then it would be whatever is the more recent. I just want to make sure. Mike, can you talk about the source. Yeah. So the parks. Parks was actually done a while ago. I did parks the same time that I did. The natural resources. So parks was done in. Collaboration with the parks. Department and the parks. Committee commission. Parks commission. So we worked with the parks commission to develop these. And then we. The staff goes through and kind of finesses it to make it, make sure it fits all the formats. And then we get it ready for you guys to go through and kind of make. The review. Recreation was with the recreation director. I don't believe I met the recreation committee. I believe he had some conversations with the recreation committee. Senior center. I worked with. The director of the senior center. And she was already working on a strategic plan. So a lot of this kind of came out of the planning that she was already doing. And then the cemetery. I did meet with the cemetery director and the cemetery director. On their, their ideas. So a lot of these have come out of the various committees. And, and their work. And these three were done. Last. Summer. I did have a comment on the parks. I just wondered if there were in. Several of the sections there were. Aspirations and goals and strategies around. Tourism. And to me, that doesn't belong in. Community services. I wonder if that's already covered. It's officially an economic development. I don't know. It just didn't seem to fit. Was my. Reaction. Yeah. I mean, it's certainly something we can look at. To. To make word changes if we want to. The destination. Oh, you're looking for the, the pat, the, so it's in city hall open. Yeah. And then it is. Yeah. It is all lower case city hall. Nine nine one nine. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, certainly something we can look at to. To make word changes if we want to. The destination. Oh. Nine nine one nine. Exclamation. They couldn't make it needs something easy. So yeah, it's a part of, I think for them, the economic development piece is some somewhat trying to explain a little bit of what they do. In their strategies. So. But they're looking at. Rather than just having say, say the, you're referring more to the parks than the recreation. It's more how they do their, their events and those types of things. They're going to set up a system that's going to work more regionally. And whether that should fall more in economic development. It's certainly mentioned in economic development. It's just like an awkward category. When we, when we went through. Parks the first time. Was it, was it under the header. Community services. It was because I think, yeah, I think you guys have reviewed parks before we just never got around to doing some final approving on it. Or maybe, maybe we had some early approving on it. If we did come trying to remember back spent a while since we, since I did parks, as I said, I did parks and natural resources at the same time. And that may have been back almost two years ago now. Because it, it feels like some of our community services, what we might consider community services are in here. And then there are things in here that are not. Community services that we're. Providing their, they seem like laudable aspirations or goals, but not sure that they're. Their community services. Like, you know, childcare, for example. Don't know that that's going to be become a. Community service, which certainly do everything that can to. Improve the childcare situation. But I don't know that it's to me, this implies that the service like that, the city will be providing to its residents, right? Yes, but in, I mean, in the case of childcare, the city actually is a licensed childcare provider. So our after school programs. That the recreation department provides is. Technically childcare. We also have the summer programs that we provide. There's a bunch of summer summer programs that are also provided. And then there is a goal of the recreation department to also start to find. A way of providing. Infant or young childcare. And so that is a goal that that they do have. It's part of the plan for country club road site. It's been a goal for a while for them to try to fill that gap because the. You know, the. There just isn't enough. And so if we're going to have. If we're going to try to get more childcare provided, then it might have to be some of it might have to be a public. Publicly provided community service. It's not for free. I mean, we may call it a community service, but it's not for free. There are fees involved. And is, are we doing conflict assistance? We do actually have conflict assistance. We make a lot of those referrals. They either will come out of the police from police encounters. They also come a lot out of the planning department. We'll have a lot of neighbor disputes that will come up. We'll have a lot of issues that will come up during the. Permitting process. Some things that people want to bring to us. To help resolve through a permitting issue is really not a permitting issue. And it's something that is more of a, of a civil issue between two neighbors. So we would advise them to go and try to work with. The community justice and they provide mediation services. Brain is just struggling to like boss these things in. Cause like our schools aren't in here and fire services aren't in there, but the public are. So, yeah, yeah, some of the, some of the pieces, like you said, we did kind of re couch the public safety to kind of talk about more of a public agency plan. I think we talked about it. And so both the facilities and the services that those. Those services provide or kind of wrapped up into there. Yeah. I mean, we could talk about public transit. Is that a. a service is that, you know, we've got to put them somewhere. So it could be public transportation could be in a community service. It could be in transportation. It could be in energy. That's a way of saving energy. And I believe it's in transportation is where we've couched public transportation. These tend to be we have in the city a community services department, which includes the first, as I said, the first three parks, M SAC and recreation cemetery is technically not part of it, but is certainly one that they've talked about. The only reason why it's not part of it is because it's a separately elected board with a separate staff. And so they haven't technically fallen fallen under our umbrella yet. That's that's a little bit of where the community services. It is tough. We've got we could put in some communities do your city plans can you can group your city plans however you want. There's no statutory requirements. Some places would have facilities and services under the same chapter heading. In our construct, we have utilities and facilities under the same umbrella. So we can leave utilities where they are water sewer. And and those services under one and then bring facilities. So you could talk about the fire department and fire services under the same under the same piece. Just a different way of looking at it. But is the conflict resolution a department of the city or? No, it's just a separate service. Community justice has some pieces, obviously being community justice, they have some pieces and they have a plan in the public safety plan. But the mediation piece is not really part of that. They they do that. They do a number of things under that umbrella of community justice. But the the mediation pieces is available for anybody. Okay, but those are city employees that community justice justice is city employees and volunteers. Yeah, we are we are somewhat unique in Vermont. In that our senior center are is part of city government. They are employees of the city government and our CJC is also part of city government. Most other places would have them as a private nonprofit. When do you think the additional the homelessness accomplishments and childcare goals and strategies will be available? I'm hoping I was starting to work on them this week. Okay, so all the work is done for them, just a matter of there's there's work to do. I have I have to meet with homelessness. You know, we're starting to work work through it. It takes a lot of massaging. Sometimes these things fall together quickly. Sometimes they are, you know, a hard slog to kind of get through and figure out exactly how to put things together. But then I've then I'll have to meet with the homelessness task force for that one. I'll meet with Carol for the CJC piece. And then the final one was the childcare. So childcare I would have to what is going to be a combination of both. So I'll have the it it's both private and what we're doing. It's going to be, you know, you know, or so the aspirations being pretty general. Some of the strategy is going to be working with private. And how do we get our help our private childcare providers to succeed. And then another piece is going to be what we're doing with our own city childcare services. And I'll have to work with Arnie on that and getting some information on the private goals. So so there's a childcare office that's separate from the recreation department. It's it's in the record. Arnie is the recreation director. He's also the licensed childcare provider. So we would just have a conversation with him on on those services and what are his goals in expanding that I know the goal is to expand the childcare services. Yeah, I was wondering if the childcare should be folded into the recreation. So it's clear. But I guess if you have private partners, yeah, if you have private partners, maybe that's I don't I don't know what the city does for the privately owned childcare or maybe plans to do. But yeah, and I don't know. We don't do a lot. And it's it's going to be difficult to try to figure out what we're going to do to try to incentivize and have, you know, what more can we do to help make them succeed? I mean, we can look at what are the zoning regulations. We have any regulatory burdens, but for the most part, we, we don't, or at least I don't think so be interesting to hear from the childcare providers to see if it is because we try in our zoning to default when there is another oversighting in regulatory body. So in childcare, if you want to be a licensed or registered childcare provider, you have a lot of oversight through the state. So we try not put a lot of oversight at our level. If you have your state license, we assume that you have you you meet the necessary requirements. And we won't add additional requirements to that. So those the last one may take a little bit more work, but I think homelessness is the one that has the most work so far done on it. So I would hope within the next month, I know we're in March. So we were in talking with SE group, the only pieces that are left with it. So these are the implementation strategies. We have these last three pieces of community services. And we have, I think what's the other one? And maybe it's just this in land use. Well, there's my, let's go back one here. It's all hiding under my tab here. Let's move this under so I can go back here, go back one. I think here I have a banner that gets in my way. No, it's not on this drive. Okay. So I have a table that goes through and looks at all of them. Land use, natural resources, the arts, community services, economic energy, governance, we're not doing historic housing, implementation, land use, we have to do natural resources, public safety, transportation, utilities and facilities. Yeah, I think this from the implementation strategies, this is it. The half of these, and then we only have land use left. So I don't have a lot of those left. And then writing chapter pieces, I have two left, community services and public safety. So all the other ones are done and they're working on them. And SE group has them and they're working on them. So should we go through these by sector as opposed to maybe by go through any of the arts, aspiration goals and strategies and then recreation, senior center and cemetery. We just focused on one clock at a time. Yeah. Different pages. Yeah, I think these strategies. Yeah, I think you went through those once already. We can do another quick run through and review them if you want. Yeah, I don't know if we anyone has any thoughts or comments or if we just want to look at the the high level strategies to ensure we're. Well, I think Arianna is bringing up goal number three. So get down to the goals. In terms of increasing the number of regional and national visitors, certainly. Yeah, I think it's up to the purpose of the parks department. Right. I think it's something like a city purpose. I think that's what you're trying to Yeah. Yeah. And I think we did talk about parks, I think in the economic development. So, but I don't know. It's not. Yeah, just starting. Yeah, it uses the word coordinated. So maybe it's just there's going to be many parties working together. You think at the time there was a new arts commissioner. Come on. We were looking at this who was I think a lot about this is like an economic. Well, I'm starting to Yeah, I like my failure until I could destiny. Yeah, Alec was trying to do do that. And part of what the parks commission in the parks department was trying to do is to work. There had been there had been some work previously to try to go and connect us regionally, but a lot of the stuff within the parks department was Hubbard Park and doing things internally, having the trails, maintaining what we have, putting in new bike trails, you know, the Mamba bike trails and everything in North North Branch. And some of what Alex goals we're trying to do is to expand so that way we would connect our cross country ski trails to East Montpelier and to middle sex and connect us out using some of our potential trails out in Berlin and then to also work on marketing and advertising. So that way not only is it the stuff that's in the parks, but connect the parks piece to say the bike bike lanes in the city. So that way we've got all of these bike networks connected, whether they're on the roads or whether they're going through our parkland that they kind of all connect to make an economic economic sector out of outdoor recreation. And that was his goal. And that's what he's been working on. And that's why they now have a path going out there. Currently, I believe working on a path to go across to U32 to connect across there. And so that's where a number of these are going. I like the way that you just said it, but I don't think that's what is reflected in like the way that they've have phrased it. I mean, they're saying increase the number of regional and national visitors to Montpelier, you know, like I think increase the connectivity of trails and bypass to other towns. It sounds great because it benefits everybody. That's not what they're saying. That's outlined in the strategies economic chapter. Yeah. Yeah. Right. I think that makes sense for economic development. I don't know that it makes sense that like the park should be looking to increase the number of regional visitors as a major goal. No, I'm saying are you agreeing the way that Mike just articulated? I think so. When Mike said it, I was like, yeah, exactly. I see. Yeah. So I mean, I think this is just like a broad way for the parks to be training him. He underscores maybe also a bit of tension in some of the discussion we had on, I don't think there was a universal like exception of not everyone was on board with the idea that this would be like including a bunch of people coming to use our parks facilities and yes, you know, maybe they'll visit our restaurants, etc. But how many hamburgers do they need to eat for to pay off for our using those facilities? Or do we just end up with our property taxes, you know, subsidizing trails for people coming out of town and not advocating one way or another. But that was a bit of the discussion, I think that happened. I think it could just be rephrased. Mike, do you kind of feel like- I can do this on the fly or I can just take some notes. I don't know if we want to try to wordsmith on the fly or just throw down some notes. But I can, you know, go with goal number three, just to focus on regional connectivity? What you said was kind of like improving all the bike paths and cross-country trails, which I think most people who live in town would agree with. I don't know that the park's goal is just increasing the number of visitors. It's not failure, it's like a park's. Yeah, usually we haven't for most other goals. And this came up a lot of putting the benchmark or the metric in it. And this one is one of the few that kind of ended up with the benchmark in it. You know, how would you measure if we were doing a good job with, you know, making outdoor recreation, you know, a key part of our economic development plan. One way we could do that is by measuring the number of people visiting. But I don't know as, I think, I agree with John. I think it's whether that makes sense as the goal, you know, that's a question. But let me see a little bit of what we did for strategies. I mean, it is around- Mark does a low priority. I'm not saying that. Where's the- I just see like a little arrow. On strategies. I mean, I'm not saying that means we don't reword it. Oh, the strategy section. It's at a low priority. Okay. What is that? That's on- it's like- Well, there is like a priority. It's the next tab over from goals and mid-roll objectives for the strategy section. And then it's five. So, yeah, I can try to adjust that to focus on improving regional connectivity and connection to transportation network. Or even just like improving coordination with other regional parks. It seems like there's a coordination with local and regional partners to develop and improve and expand outdoor recreational assets. Yeah. Something like that. And I guess the- I guess John brings up a good point. I'm not quite sure we're settled on what the ultimate goal of this development is. I mean, are we just improving and expanding those assets for the sake of doing so? Or, you know, is it for to encourage, you know, local residents and regional folks to utilize the trail network? Or are we going to actively market this as a destination? I mean, I think that probably has some impact on how- I think some of that, some of that, as you pointed out, is in the economic development plan. Yeah. I think- So, I think the marketing of that is in the economic development plan. We may or may not need that repeated here in the- Yeah. In the- more the parks side. I'm just looking to see what we've got. The economic development template says we will work with regional municipalities and entities to increase access to ETH Montpelier trails, rightful reservoir, the Crossformant Trail, Berlin, Fond, Irish Hill, Berlin Town Forest, Northfield Town Forest, and nearby state forest. We will work with CVRPC, Department of Forest Parks, Recreation, Vermont Outdoor, Business Alliance, Central Vermont Chamber of Commerce, and Economic Development Corporation, Berry City, Berry Town, and others. And that is the goal is to expand and promote outdoor recreation activities opportunities. We'll work with multiple partners to expand trail mileage and coordinate tourism marketing. It looks like most of those are actually doing a better job of, as you point out, having a goal of improving coordination with regional partners to improve regional recreational assets. Yeah. Something to that effect, rather than promoting the marketing. The tourism marketing. Yeah, because the goals over in N, there's the A3, these are all the goals of A3 are kind of, you know, the green print plan that's basically helped, that's their network plan, the green print conservation program, which is about, that's related to the green print plan, green print, it's the plan, the conservation program is how we purchase those properties that are needed to get purchased. So we'll go and say, hey, we need a trail that goes across here, but actually purchasing the rights to build that trail is part of the conservation program. So that's why that's also part of that building that network. The management plan, how we take care of our, you know, maintain them going forward. Erin just talked about the outreach program, then we got to go all the way down to outdoor recreation Economic Development Coordination Program. So that would be the only one that kind of goes out back to the actual economic development. Then the other one is just the regional recreation plan and a new multi-use trail study. So the only thing that's kind of left out is this Economic Development Coordination. So yeah, that's a little bit of an internal working on those types of opportunities, which again, either that could be repeated or moved to, we could just take that and move that to the Economic Development Plan if it's not there already. Maybe moving number eight. Strategy eight, move to Economic Development. So just touching quickly on what the other two goals were, increasing the number of playgrounds, natural areas, trails, greenways consistent with the green print and ensuring our park system offers four-season recreational opportunities. I think that's a pretty basic straightforward goal of your parks department is to provide these and we're having a goal of increasing them, which is true. They're trying to build out. We've always been, for a long time, Hubbard Park and we had a number of many smaller parks that kind of scattered out Blanchard Park, but they want to increase them, especially trails and that's been the big push lately. And then number two is to improve the community's appreciation and understanding of the park resources, rules, policies in order to understand the integrity, safety and sustainability of the park system for current and future generations. So there's a lot of what they do that's about education and working with the public in that arena. So that comes up a lot with our popular, how do we handle dogs in the park? So that keeps City Council at least once or twice a year going. So that's where all the goals then come in is the green print plan, which we talked about in the conservation program, parks management, these top address a number of those pieces, communication and outreach. Parks also has a very active volunteer program, including working a lot with youth. And that goes a lot to the first goal of having a good park system because the volunteers do a lot of the work to keep the park system up and it also goes to instilling appreciation. As the youth work in the parks, they come to appreciate the park system and all the work that takes to take care of it. And as they grow and they stay here, they become future folks that will support the system. We have a couple of policies. The 10 minute walk is a key policy that they want to have in the 15 minute walk to a natural area. So we still have to do a little bit of mapping to determine how are we doing, but they want to be able to look at every neighborhood. And this also helps to direct City Council and has been mentioned many times with City Council with respect to, especially south of the Winooski River. That area doesn't have very many parks. And so that has always been a big issue of if we're going to have a policy of a 10 minute walk to a park, that could be a small park that could be, you know, you could think about over an Isabelle circle, there's a small park. So that area over there is within a 10 minute walk to a park, but they're not within a 15 minute walk to a natural area. And that is their other goal. So that's more getting to places where there might be some trails and some forested natural areas as opposed to, say, a park that is in urban park or just swing sets and recreation equipment. Making sure that we live close to places where we can. I agree. The wording does come out a little strange of large protected areas. We have some zoning requirements. That's why we touch on zoning a little bit. We just talked about the economic coordination and then the couple of studies that they wanted to do over the next eight years. So this is an eight year plan. A lot of these, you'll note that there's some of them. Column D is talking about the cost column, he's talking about the priority. So you see a number of these kind of are in the lower priority. Their higher priorities are at the top. Or is it the other way around? What do you got? Priorities in D, cost is in E. So reverse those. So the policies, those are high priorities, low cost. Yep. But in my head, it's public connections. Isn't it a way for the public to get through to a park? So that is a due to constitutional issues. We can't use zoning regulations to allow public access onto private property. So we can go through and have a requirement that a new project comes in. Let's say it's a multifamily housing development. We can have a requirement that says, well, if you're abutting the trail, you've got to make connections to that trail for the people that live there. We can't because of some court decisions, Supreme Court decisions in 2017 or 2018 say, make those also available to the public to use to walk through private property. So we just can't, we just can't use zoning to allow public access to private property. It would be considered a taking. Interested in paying for it? We could purchase it. We certainly have the right to purchase it. We just can't use zoning as a tool. So we have, I'll give a good example. There's a conversation right now going on with Isabelle Circle because they are going to develop a part of their property and then they have a part of their property that they're thinking of donating potentially to the city for a park. We can't talk about the park piece at all in the discussion of that because we can't have there to be this appearance of a conflict that there's some quid pro quo between issuing the permit and the donation of land because if there is, then it can cause an issue down the road. So we, the DRV will talk about the development piece and if they want to donate land, they talk to city council and we try to keep those as separate as we can. So we require it for cars? Like roads? Yes. Well, they've got, if it would be a private street until it's public street, when it's public street, then yeah, and we can't require somebody to have public parking probably would require them to have a public road. If they, if we required them to build a public road, otherwise we require them to build a private road. So yes, I get where you're going. I'm just bitter that we have all these rules that we're like, oh, it's a car. You can't walk. Of course, we can ride on it. But if it's a trail for a human, we can't acquire that. That's absurd. Yeah. So, serve the public good? Yes. So we do try to work. And there are a number of places we can go through and have these types of conversations. Other tools we could go through. If somebody came in with a project and said, hey, I would like a tax stabilization, we could certainly go through and require public access in exchange for that. Because because now there's a cash benefit being transferred, we could go through and say, yeah, we'll do that as long as you donate to the city the right of way. So there are a lot of places we can have that conversation. We just can't have that conversation as it applies to to administrative permits like zoning. And we could have an official map that would and we have encouraged the parks commission to work with us on the development of an official map that would give us the right of first refusal in buying those rights of way that we need. So if we, you know, they have laid out where they would like some paths to go. And because they cross a whole bunch of private property, it becomes very difficult to go through and connect all those pieces. Because once you've bought four of the five pieces you need, if that fifth person never comes along, you, you've spent a lot of money on a path to nowhere. So there's you can do an official map, which would then give you the opportunity to then go through and either use eminent domain or to have a right of first refusal to be able to go through and say this is this is what we're going to do and we're going to cut you a check and we're just going to make this part of the city. So yeah, I think at some point, we may end up in in our parks strategies, there may eventually be one that talks about an official map. But they haven't quite gotten there yet. And I think we will get there eventually for with them. We kind of okay with the parks piece. And we can certainly take comments at any time on these. So these, as we mentioned before, and for anyone in the public who's watching on Orca, that these are all these are all drafts. And there is nothing that is being approved as permanent and done. These will be drafts that we'll put together and compile. And if we've got changes to make, we can make them before we go public. And once we go public, then there's public comment, we can vote on making changes anytime up to city council. And then at that point, they get handed to city council and people can make changes anytime up until they adopt them. So whether it's simple wordsmithing, or whether it's recommendations to completely remove a recommendation or add a new recommendation. So who would adopt the policy about the 10 minute walk? Would that be the parks commission or the city council? These are what we're trying to do. And we talked more about this with the previous assistant city manager. And we kind of want to do the same thing now. And haven't worked as much to go through and see how we wanted to do these, but these would be adopted by city council. And the goal is that you can change policies whenever you want for city council. They can just simply put it on an agenda item and change the policies, not changing in ordinance. Policies are things that say how we use our resources, we as government. So I say we because I'm in government. So how do we as our government use our resources, roads, parking lots, parks? How do we spend our money? How do we behave? It's basically how we are using our things. That's what we're defining as a policy. So in this case, the policy is that city council would adopt the policy for 10 minute walk to a park. And it would be one of these whereas resolutions that would go through and say this is going to be our policy. And we're going to move forward on trying to identify those areas that don't meet this requirement and then to identify land and resources to basically fill in the holes. Where don't we have a 10 minute walk? And it probably would be a pretty quick GIS map if we could define what it is a park is. That's probably pretty easy. But the 15 minute walk to a natural area, we'd have to define what's the difference between a park and a natural area. It's a natural area, automatically a park or these two separate classes, we just have to figure out how to define it and then draw a couple of, you know, what is the 10 minute walk at a thousand feet that, you know, 100 feet something. And then we can go through and see how much of the city is actually covered. It'd probably be a pretty short, pretty quick exercise of just defining a few things and making a few measurements. But certainly what we would find is south of south of the river is going to be probably you'll find big gaps of where there isn't parkland. Think about Freedom Drive and those areas are pretty far from any of our city owned parkland. I mean, they certainly have opportunities there. There's rural lands that people take advantage of, but they aren't officially recognized parklands that people can legally take advantage of. So the 15 minute walk to a natural area, you're going to probably find some places over by Country Club Road. We now own it. So maybe we've got a couple of those check boxes. But before we had purchased Country Club Road, you can think about that area over by Gallison Hill. How far would you have to go to get to a natural area from Gallison Hill? Probably pretty far. So those are going to be probably, as you get closer to the core, obviously there's a lot more parks and a lot more natural areas. Does it make sense to have a 15 minute walk policy for areas that are pretty rural? I feel like it's just like encouraging sprawling expansion when they already have woods. They have woods in their backyards. If you're out, I mean, yeah, I grew up in like suburban Philadelphia, where I was not within a 15 minute walk of a natural area. But I could see how that would be nice because we lived in like a small home. But if you live on like an acre of land, it's probably 15 minutes just to get off your land. And then there's probably like a forest nearby. Yeah, it just kind of like, does it make sense to limit the policy to a certain perimeter? Yeah, people really benefit from being close to nature, you know, because they don't have big backyards. And I thought about how I would measure this because we've broken the city into about 50 neighborhoods. And as you get to like the Wrightsville neighborhood is this massive, you know, if we were measuring it from neighborhoods, then, you know, a 10 minute or 15 minute walk from the edge of that neighborhood would get you quite a ways. But I mean, it would take you more than 15 minutes to walk across the Wrightsville. Probably take you half an hour to walk across the Wrightsville neighborhood because it's so big, but it's also very rural. And then it's also, you know, that's the northern part right up by Wrightsville comes down that that neighborhood comes down as far as the stump dump and I think Gould Hill. So thinking about walking from Wrightsville to Gould Hill is all one neighborhood. What is the purpose of the natural area policy? The 15 minute, you know, is I would think that within a city, the purpose of parks is to give people access to nature that they otherwise wouldn't get. If you're already living somewhere that's pretty rural, like what is the purpose of having a natural area within 15 minutes of your house? And I think we would have to take that question up with the parks that is there. These are not policies I came up with. These are policies they have. So yeah. So I at a point, I can certainly see. Seeing whoever, you know, the thought process behind this and whether limiting it a bit would make more sense. Yeah. And I've questioned, I mean, there's the walk. There's the question of whether or not, you know, 15 minute, I mean, one's a 10 minute walk. One's a 15 minute walk. That's really not that big of a difference in distance. You know, I was thinking, you know, would the natural area, a 15 minute bike ride to a natural area would kind of change that. I don't know personally. I think some of these, I think we would just have to have a more in depth conversation with them about what they're trying to get at because I agree. Part of the reason we have a lot of parks in general is because the more densely you live, you know, you live in, you know, down where John is and probably where a lot of you are. You don't really have a yard almost big enough to chuck around a frisbee or play fetch with the dog. You've got your place and if you want to have those opportunities, part of the agreement, you know, the social contract is we're all going to live close together and then we're going to share those recreational resources and that's what the parks department is there for, to give you those opportunities to go out and enjoy and not have to mow your giant lawn like I do. So, but why would you then need to go and have the 15 minute walk if you're also living out in a place where you've got eight acres, you know, or 10 acres? The value of that social contract kind of falls apart because you've got your eight acres, you don't really need to go and have a shared resource that goes along with it. So, and maybe, maybe that's part of that has to go into the policy of drawing that line. This policy really applies for anyone who lives within the densely populated areas, which would be anything probably from res nine, residential 9,000, which is four units an acre down to Thurbin core. But I think that would be something we would have to take up with the parks commission because it is there. That's their policy that they're they want to push for. Okay. I mean, we could consider removing both of these, given that we're endorsing the green print plan, like it's not this mysterious amorphous place where we're like, we need to come up with this blanket policy and then look and try to figure out what that means afterwards. Like it's a small city, we can look and see where it makes sense to have these amenities. And some of it is just more nuanced on in my mind, like having access to a nice high quality trail doesn't mean to be like a large area could connect, connect you to one. But this in some ways, there, you can imagine coming up as a used as a club when there is a development proposed in a rural area, where someone says, Hey, your policy is to have a large natural area. This development shouldn't happen. It should be a park. Doesn't the strategy? We kind of had to insert that in. I was like, it's like, we've got to make sure we insert that in, but agreed. And I see what John is saying. And I agree, I agree with him. These two policies really should be a part of this original green print, which is saying, and it actually is there it is. This revised plan is needed to one ensure that the location of parks and natural areas exists to meet access objectives of 10 and 15 minute walks, which were the ones we just talked about. Yeah, I would favor just taking those two out because it further highlights it to me. Something that could be strictly interpreted in a way that I don't know. I might not favor. And the city council would adopt it? Is that one? And they would be adopting that they have adopted a green print. And there's a conversation about revising that green print at this point. But the green print would when you make a new green print plan, identify where parks should be and identify where trails should be so it would be the parks, the natural areas and the trails that connect them all. That plan is the green print. And so basically when the city council adopts the green print plan, a revised one, they will be adopting a green print plan that meets five and six. The green plan currently reside. You can find it if you google it on our website. Is the parks department just use it? Yeah, it is a parks department plan. It's got a plan, it's got a map that goes along with it, but it's more of a generalized map. It'll kind of have this 500 foot wide connection that goes across. It'll say somewhere in here we've got to put a path. We're not looking for a 500 foot wide path, but we can't very specifically draw a line through it because we don't know whether this property owner would be amenable. So sometimes it kind of goes through these property owners and then it cuts up and goes to these property owners because these guys were willing to participate in the United States. Human migration trap. All right, so we've got a revision to goal number three. We've moved strategy eight if it's not already in economic development and we've removed strategies five and six. Did that cover recreation as well or no? That covered parks. So recreation's aspiration was for all Montpelier residents to have a greater quality of life, betterment of health, and improved community ties through quality recreational programs that are safe and affordable. Recreational programs will also provide opportunities for growth in tourism and foster economic development. And I think that little bit of the last sentence goes to some of the same because the parks and recreation are kind of connected, interconnected. So the goals six and seven are more, seven in particular is more of a strategy than that goal. Yeah, well, we can see when we get there what they're, what they had for specific strategies tied to that. That right now they're only including, they're only making it inclusive of Asia's and not genders and other traits as a parent of a daughter who uses the recreation department. I think, you know, it's not, it's not just a matter of being Asian inclusive. We just, we're just from across that stages. For all. For all, yeah. So I'm good just to remove the word. Once you start listing then. Oh, I know. Yeah. I agree and I think Arnie would agree as well. I think when that was put together and sure he would agree. So they do focus a lot on four and five really does break out a lot of what they try to do. You know, it's about opportunities and it's also about making sure those opportunities are affordable to everybody. And then the number six is about strength strengthening ties. So a lot of what he said, a lot of what he, you know, they do recreation programs, as I said, for health and for bringing people together for the community ties. But if we, this feels like maybe it's just getting into wordsmithing, but if we just add strength and community ties to number four, so have a greater quality of life, improve, maintain health and strengthen community ties. And then we drop six and seven because they're more, they could be like sponsoring those community activities as a strategy to meet those other goals. So it's managing and improving our rec fields. It's really what you're saying. Well, I mean, it's kind of interesting if there's like this plan to use the else club property for like all these nice, you know, to add all these nice facilities and then make it free for tours just to show up and use them. I don't think they would expect them to be free. All right, well, let's see. We'll see what comes up as six and seven in the strategies. And then if we see that none of the strategies survive, then we can certainly get rid of or if it relates to strengthening community ties, we can always move it to four. We'll see what the strategies hold. So the strategies, we've got the recreation program. And we can be before B six, probably the B six part is the about strengthening community ties, communication program, the study that's about affordability, recreation events and tourism. So we're really down here at and I can go back and look at the community facilities because the capital improvement plan, this may be tied into maintaining facilities. But as I said, we have this utilities and facilities chapter and we've got community services and sometimes they connect the services and the facilities into the same and sometimes say, in our case, we've got them in different buckets. So this may be something more appropriate to the maintenance of the facilities in the CIP. So that number 15 may go. But recreation events and tourism program is really the tourism is tied mostly to the Mountaineers. I mean, most of the recreational events that we're talking about are things that are mostly here for the residents, the annual egg hunt, which is coming up, by the way, the parent child dance, the ski and skate swap. These are all things that aren't really tourism. Not city run, those attract. Yep. Out of town folks. Yeah. And the question I think is how much focus do we want our recreation department working on bringing people in from away or providing events for folks? Or is it a little bit of both? And 11 are kind of muddied. Because number 12 is talking about communications, but then half of it is talking about the all of the new stuff that will be happening at the entry club road project. It seems like that's actually part of the recreation program. And there's nothing really expanding about communication. They just want to keep doing what they're doing. It seems like half of number 12 should be put into number 11. Yeah, a little bit of that could be cleaned up. Increasing opportunity for recreation for all. I'm not saying anything about actually increasing opportunities for all. It identifies youth sports specifically. Are there any Is there do the senior center and recreation department overlap? Yeah, they're all part of the same department. So there are things. I mean, a lot of pickleball is all ages, including seniors, same with tennis. I don't know if they're separate basketball leagues. I know I see a lot of folks going into the recreation center on Berry Street of all ages. So I don't know if it's different if they're different leagues or if it's just mixed leagues that are there. Yeah, it's in the senior or in the recreation facility on Berry Street. They also have their lines are painted on the tennis courts in the rec field as well as in the high school. Parking spaces. So I think there's a pickleball court in front of everybody's home that was built after we adopted some small just takes a small, small net. You're ready to go. There's quite quite a few pickled all opportunities out there. But yeah, I would probably say there's probably a lot more youth sports than there are adult sports out there. So well stated. And then the strategies just seems like a traditional old school recreation facility. You know, like what are you actually doing to provide opportunities for everyone in our community? But that's still sports, right? I mean, this is recreation always have to do with sports, right? chess clubs, chess clubs. Exactly. A debate plot that would go well. Yeah, I know the senior center has a lot of programs as well. But they're of course focused on just their group. So they really do have great programs. I want to take the chess. I can't remember what the so we're on strategies now, right? Correlates to the goal, but I agree. You're rereading that it doesn't really get the first one was talking the first goal was talking about, you know, increasing the amount opportunities for all. And the second one is talking about making sure it's affordable. So really most of what we're talking about is there and then that the last ones we're talking about tourism and economic development, if we wanted to keep that. But most of what that would fall into is, you know, it's pretty straightforward. It's a recreation program. And in this case, they have their communication program as well, because they want to make sure they're they're hearing from people about what opportunities things they can do. We modernize this world. We just add into other modern things. Well, they were trying to show they did for the kids. I mean, pump tracks and, you know, pump tracks and climbing walls and disc golf is kind of in there. But whether we captured enough Yeah, but for all ages, or about how they're going to do out ideas for outreach and different, you know, you know, do they have any other? Well, I reached my steps goal by moving my arm outreach and also any other like ideas for new revenue or how are they going to make things more affordable? So yeah, just be helpful. Sorry, not using the microphone. I just realized but see if number 17 is also in our utilities and facilities chapter. I mean, there's certainly a connection between the two having the facilities to provide the recreational opportunities and providing recreational opportunities are certainly closely connected. So we've got to two big recreation questions that are out there right now that the department is looking at. One is what do we do at Berry Street because of all of its environmental issues? And the second thing is country club road, which was purchased with million dollars of recreation dollars in order to be a new location for a recreation center. And that process is ongoing to determine whether or not. So number 16 will probably go away before we get to adopt this plane. It'll take us, you know, nine months to a year to adopt this plane. And by the time we get there, that will already be done. It'll probably be country club road implementation. So the question is what do we need to do and where does it have to go? You know, is it a tennis court? Is it a basketball court? Is it a swimming pool? Is it all of the above? Is it none of the above? That's what's being decided right now. Stay back. Think about the recreation program and monitoring regularly reviewed for changes in the community preference. How did the skate park come about? Was that people showing up at the parks commission saying, we want to skate park? Or I mean, you know what I mean? There was a mechanism for them to for the new skate park. Yeah. I mean, just saying like what some people showed up and said, we've left to fundraise some money to put in the skate park. Are you saying like, they should spitball more about what they could do to expand activities within the rec department. But it sounds like most of it came from like pickleball took off and they said, oh, we need to do more pickleball. So they maybe it should say that be responsive to changes that happen in the community. I don't know. I don't know what the I don't know if they know what the future trend is. I couldn't tell you that the ball is going to be crazy. You can't find a court about pickleball. And then I know they're talking about at Country Club Road, you know, the indoor basketball, but they also wanted to have an indoor track because they wanted to have it for more for indoor walking tracks than anything else. So that way there's possible things for seniors and others to be able to go out and use that as a resource. I know when people have talked about swimming pools, I when we studied them, they've all shown that they're not financially viable, but we let the process be the process and the council will decide. But swimming pools also come up a lot for all ages. Swimming pools are not just kids. They're not just seniors. They're you know, they're swimming is available for everybody. So I think they certainly are looking at those and they certainly take into account when they when they think all ages, they are all they are also looking at not just children as a uniform group, but everyone from you know, making sure we've got the child safe playgrounds for the youngest right up to, you know, your elementary school and your high schools and right up through. So that way everybody's got opportunities. But yes, we should have opportunities and continue beyond the kids right up through to the seniors and then available opportunities for seniors as well. I know the community justice provisions are on the agenda, but I'm not sure we'll have time to get to them. I also think Kirby at the last time we discussed them, maybe had the most to say about that. Do we are we okay pushing that to the next next meeting? I know for making changes to for recreation, but it changes to goals four and six. Then we talk strategies 15 and 17 or whether just check whether or not they're in the facilities plan. They may have been put in here. We developed this plan before I did the utilities and facilities. So those could probably be moved over there if they're already there clean up 11 and 12 that was fit with communication that we talked about where 11 is talking about the recreation programs 12 is talking about the communication programs. There seems to be a little bit of intermixing there. We'll clean that up. And then we just have an overall outstanding question of are we doing enough in number 11 for all ages? We may just be able to it may just need to have some wording changed in there to go and ensure that we're talking about for example these types of things. It says for adults and youth including all of these, but I wanted to make to the goal. It's not just age inclusivity that we need to talk about. You know, I think there's other elements in society that we need to address at the recreation department. Okay, so again, I think they're definitely focused on that like they do have programs for adults many different ages, you know, do they have equal opportunities for everyone other than just based on age? Yeah, no, I agree. So maybe maybe what we need to look at is including facilities and programs. We say for adult and youth sports, but maybe we can just remove remove that libraries would be library. I'm trying to remember if that is tucked under facilities. Yeah, because you've got some things get really muddy. You get facilities and services and the library and hospitals have to be discussed healthcare. And those are just talked about as facilities. This is where the library is this where the hospitals are. Your center and cemetery. Yes, they did have quite a few of that sentiment strategies. So the goals and for those of you who are somewhat new here, John has we've always broken these into big long lists or my processes I'll break them into, you know, separate goal for safe housing and different goal for affordable housing and I'll break them into two pieces because they're treated differently. And so we end up with a lot of goals and then strategies and John likes to compress them back into smaller groups that make logical sense. So that way we don't have this redundancy. It's just a matter of style. There's no right or wrong. I'm just explaining that I can let John I can let John say it too. But that's what John has done and I would like one goal for one goal for everything. That's it. So services. Do your job. Maintain services. So a lot of these in as we are looking at the goals. So a lot of these are also a self reflection as they're looking through. So every goal is looking at whether you're trying to try to maintain evolve or transform. So there's a format here. There's a method to the madness. And so as the senior center director is looking through these things, she's also reflecting on we can group things together that we want to maintain. But it starts becoming harder to have one that you want to maintain and group it with one that is something we want to improve. So she's you know believes they're doing a good job. So we want to maintain a role of MSAC as an advocate for and resource for the aging community. And by the way, it is the aging community is not senior even though we technically are the senior center. They actually are disappointed that seniors in the title. They prefer to be aging community or for the aging is the one for your food bank under the senior center or I know they do meals on wheels. Oh, and they are part of the feast farm. So the feast farm is on the home farm way and is run by the parks department. And then they take the food that is there and then they use it on meals and wheels. So to solve the feast farm with meals on wheels? I think it does because they're not legally allowed to sell it because they there's some weird quirky. But is it going to anybody else that goes to meals? Yeah, I think it just goes to them. So yes, if they do meals on wheels, they also do a number of other meals programs. So they'll have dinners and different things there. Sanction is between 11 and 13. Interesting. Yeah, those do actually look very much alike. So that would be 11 C 11 and C 13. Just flip over to strategies and see if there's a big difference between those. C 11 is a health and wellness program. And it may be that I have a word wrong. That's about health and wellness offering movement classes, nutrition wellness classes. And 13 is about personal independence services to help people remain independent and age in place. That's the only strategy for each one of those. One's about health and one's about independence. Support for healthy aging, especially those living at home, maintain support for aging population to allow independence. I think the subtle difference there is they're related in that certainly there is the healthy, one is their health programs and one is their independence programs. Not everybody is trying to age in place at home. Okay. But I see how similar they are. So number 11 is really about classes to encourage like healthy. Yeah. Yep. Is there a way to do that to make it less? Yeah. The exception maybe improving the financial security through the funding sources, like I think I would have a hard time at the end of whatever our planning career it is saying like yes or no, this has been accomplished. Like they don't seem like actual goals. Yeah. Like did we support the aging population to allow independence? Like eight years from now, are we going to be able to say like that we did or didn't do that? Might not. If we don't have a benchmark that eventually goes along with it, but it justifies why we have sometimes the question is why do we have a program? It's like, well, we have that program because it supports our goal to support an aging population. And if the city council or whoever doesn't support that goal, then it doesn't make sense to have the corresponding. And now while I'm thinking about it, I'll just mention it. Part of this is they want to go through and get certified or accredited, I guess is the word. They want to get accredited. And in the accreditation, there are six lines, six things you've got to do. And so these, some of these correspond to those six targets. So it's kind of like when we talked about the police department, they have the six pillars. And so they have six goals, each goal lines up with one of the pillars. And I think there were some of this that was in here. We did combine some of them to actually think it was maybe nine or 10 requirements for accreditation. And some of them are close enough that I could combine them. What's the goal of accreditation? It's just basically how you'd have for kind of like any accreditation or certification. It's not a, it's not a requirement, but it's just a demonstration. You know, I I'm just thinking if we can articulate why we want that information, maybe that gets to the underpinnings like goals or I'm not sure. Like if this is the goal of having these as accreditation, like why do we want that? So NCOA accreditation policy achieve accreditation for the senior center through the national council on aging through the completion of the nine standards of excellence for senior center operations. These include maintenance, maintaining a governance structure and creating effective relationships with partners, staff, council and community. So that's getting accreditation as a policy of theirs. That's as much as I can, much information as I can provide on that one. In terms of feedback. Can we just collapse the main theme ones at least into one goal? Yeah, they're working a bit backwards. They have the strategies in place. They have their programs in place and they're creating goals to match up with the strategy that's supposed to be around. Yeah, developing these plans always works either backwards or forwards. In some cases you write down what you do and then try to remember why you do them. Some cases is obvious. Other cases you start at the top and work your way down, but they do a lot. So that's part of their thing is they do have a lot of programs that target food. They've got a bunch that target health. They've got a bunch that target independence. So they just try to capture all of their different things because they've got a couple hundred programs a year of things that are going on from yoga to meals on wheels to foot care clinics to helping people with their taxes. They offer a lot of services. So it looks like the improvements, I mean other than the governance one on nine, the improving food security and they are trying to increase, if they move to Country Club Road, they want to get a bigger commercial kitchen. So they could increase the number. They believe they could vastly increase the number of meals on wheels deliveries they could make if they had a bigger kitchen. Increasing socialization there, trying to definitely get more opportunities going there. And improving financial security of MSAC, that really is more about partners. And again, we can look at number 15, see whether that is in, if that's in the facilities plan. So that would take out one. Yeah, all in all under strategies, there are more, just a lot of small bite-sized pieces, health and wellness, socialization, personal independence, the peace farm. They've avoided the like, having education and communication program that will make people appreciate aging people. Oh, they didn't do up on 19. There we go. MSAC Communication Outreach Program. Oh, they do have them. Yeah. They actually have people, they actually have people that do that. So unlike a lot of departments that say, we need to have a communication outreach program, they actually have a communication outreach person. So that's actually a key part of theirs. Have some information for aging adults. It's kind of like, it's really like ambitious, like, I don't really know what that means, but it could mean like, which one? It's like taking out on Fox News here. Which one are you looking at? At 19. The Communication Outreach Service, the Clearing House of Information for Aging adults. Yeah, they have a lot of their own mailing lists and emailing lists. So if there's a anything going on with scammers and spammers and everything else, they try to get information out. Any strategy feedback? Yeah, that piece, usually that's the last thing I'll do. I'll go through the prioritize, prioritize them and fill those blocks in. So I was just hopeful to get a sense of what their priorities are and where they're situated. I think because so many of these are continuing programs, most of them are going to be their highs or mediums because there's a lot of stuff that the question will be the fee studies, most types of things probably lower priorities. Well, we can, at least we got through three of them, which is good. We can do cemeteries. Do you want to get through cemeteries? Nail it down here. Yeah. All right, cemeteries. Visibility cemetery for tourism. They're thinking of, they're going to bury there, I think. Oh, for the goal there. Cemetery envy. Well, they are trying to do a little bit. That is, that is one of their things. And they do, they actually do, they don't do as much, certainly not do as much as a hope cemetery, but they do, do bus tours. Oh, yeah. Yeah, they've done some tours. Pat Patrick Cemetery director. He does bus tours. Pat Patrick, yeah. I think there's a little more walking with less being in the bus, but we can mash it up with the rec strategy and have like the LARPers in there and they could somehow. Oh, like bus tours stop by the cemetery. Okay, it's not like a whole event. Yeah, I will say just inside my daughter and I often eat ice cream and cemeteries in the summertime. It's impressive. I mean, there's a lot of, there's a lot of interesting cemetery architecture going. I think one of our cemeteries. Awesome. She thought it was weird, but it was a nice view. She came around though and said, yeah, a lot of the goals I think are pretty straightforward even if they're, even if there are five of them. Keep mowing, keep their strategies, keep mowing, keep burying. Like the environmental stewardship part of it, they want to create non mowing arts, right? But I think it was controversial in farm porch form last summer. Yeah, yeah, when we get to this program is to not mow. Yeah, that's great. Yeah, so they need, you know, the strategies are pretty straightforward matching up with the goals. I mean, but we do have a very progressive, our burial programs. We do natural burials. We do a lot of things that other places don't allow. So we're meeting a lot of the cultural and personal wishes of people. Sorry, I'm just again kind of curious. Is the perpetual care fund, is that a fund that, what is that? So if you go back historically, cemeteries used to be kind of almost privately run and you would give a certain amount of money in order to be buried and that would go into the perpetual care fund, which would pay for people to mow and take care of the cemeteries. And then they were frequently not funded well enough and they would end up kind of falling into disrepair and then automatically being defaulted by state law as defaults to the ownership of the municipality to take care of them. Now, I don't believe that's how the Green Mount Cemetery got to be under city ownership, but that is how a number of cemeteries in other communities end up falling into municipal care. But there is usually a perpetual care fund that exists and we have one as well. And so if you wanted to be buried at Green Mount Cemetery, you'd have to pay a certain amount of money that would go into the perpetual care fund that is invested to generate revenues so that way those revenues are supposed to be used for the care of the perpetual care of the site. I don't believe our perpetual care fund pays for everything. I think it gets a lot of money from general fund as well to support it. But there is a perpetual care fund and they are trying to increase the amount of money in it so that way it can continue to grow and help to pay some of the costs. That Green Mount Cemetery. So their partnership program, a lot of the currently a lot of the maintenance that is done is done with the Northeast Correctional Complex. A couple other groups that also partner with with them. Well, I think we actually they do a lot of outreach for these things here. But yes, that is true. We now have an outreach coordinator. So there's like this question. It's a reoccurring question on attracting visitors that I think in my mind we've not done a great job of understanding why we're doing that. Like does another instance here we're not not collecting fee at the cemetery. We're just we really want people to come outside of Montpelier to come enjoy all of these municipal facilities that we've supported. It's one of those things you read and it's like, yeah, that sounds nice. And then you're like, wait, why are we doing this? I think there's a in hopes that they spend money in the downtown while they're here. And you don't I don't I just I just assume there are some cases there's pretty good data of some some things. I mean, I don't think people are going to come in just to visit the cemetery and leave. And there's been probably coming in to do a number of things, including one of them being, you know, if you're an arts and culture person, then, you know, visiting the various cemeteries in central Vermont would be something to go and do. I know they've got numbers for things like if you bring bike riders in and, you know, they spend a certain amount of money. So, but I don't know no data. I don't know the data on cross-country tours. Yeah, cemetery tourism, not much money that usually bring to the community or, you know, if we built more cross-country ski trails, how much would that bring in and and in money spent at Under River Sports or these other places? I don't have the numbers, but you I could try to report back at our next meeting. I might have some stuff or we can get some mobility data because we do have cemetery, so it should be interesting. I think the bigger question will be how much do we know about, you know, how much are we getting? I mean, I'll think about, you know, whether it's cross-country skiing or during the summer or mountain bike trails, how many and maybe that goes to one of the goals they had, which was to be able to start to quantify this, you know, how many people are coming from other places to go and use our mountain bike trails. And the hope is if they are, how much are we capturing or are we able to capture any of that at Onion River Sports or any of our other, you know, hotels and motels and restaurants, how many people are coming in and doing things and then going shopping and eating here as well. I think that would be helpful to know at some point or we mostly just capturing regional, you know, our folks coming in from Berry City and Berry Town to use our bike paths and then going back home to eat and go shopping, you know. Good, Sharon. There are seconds. All right. I do have a correction. It's on comments from the chair. It says Mike hasn't talked to anyone at the state to find out how to work at work. I don't know how to work at work yet. Yeah. All right. How to work it. I have a tip for humanity. Like, oh, the neighborhood, oh, how this program works. Any other corrections or discussion? Oh, I had seen one. Oh, it's neighborhood development area, which is one I had never seen in a neighborhood. Not neighborhood development area. It's neighborhood development area. All right. So we've got two corrections to the comments of the chair. Any other hearing none? All in favor of approving the minutes. Say aye. Opposed? Extensions. Minutes are approved. Who adjourned? I'll second. All those in favor of adjourning? Aye. Aye. Who adjourned?