 I'm your host, Cindy Matsuki. International Hawaii showcases local import and export businesses to help others new to the industry. Today my guest is David Pang, founder of Eleo Products and Malama Eco Products. They're a local import company and I think they have a lot of lessons to share. So I'm excited. So David, thank you for joining me today. Oh, thank you for inviting me, Cindy. Yeah. Can you tell me a little bit about Eleo Products and when you started and how you got started with this business? So I've been in the pet industry for almost 30 years now. And Eleo, as many of you guys might know, actually means dog. So we started about in 2007 and we started off bringing in pet supplies, you know. I had a few pet stores in Asia and I brought it in. The thing that we developed and we manufactured there, we ended when I moved back to Honolulu, we brought those items back to Honolulu with us and we kind of launched it out of Pestula here for a while as well. And then what we found was the distributions at the retail site for us was much more, was growing a lot faster than our pet store site. So, you know, we basically handed that business over to one of our employees to own and run. And then we just started focusing on the distribution and import sites and that's how it was taking up majority of my time anyway. So right now, you know, we have people seeing us, we have a few brands that we manufacture and we take care of when we import as well as we export out of the U.S. into the other countries. Some of the products, you probably hear the obvious, the illegal product, all the puppy pads and all the treats and snacks, Malama Ecos, Peina Part Supplies, which is all the stuff that you probably see along and like disposable plates and all the eco-friendly stuff. We started Malama Ecos about 12 years ago just because we thought it was the right thing to do. These are some dog treats that we manufacture out of the place in San Diego that we export across the Europe as well as to South America and Asia. That's kind of what we do with a little bit of everything. Wow, so you actually have an export business? Yeah. Where you manufacture on the mainland? Correct. Yeah, I can't manufacture here, it's actually too expensive. But we have a place in San Diego where we manufacture some of our dog treats that we sell obviously on the mainland. We sell it actually here. So it's a teeth treat brand, the dental treats. When you see that long, you see that donkyoie, food land, pines, you know, most of the stores you see it at. And then we export that out as well. We sold that in Japan, we sold it in China so in Europe, we sell it in Mexico. Where else do we store it in? Yeah, so I think Mexico, the guys that sell, that we sell it in Mexico, they take it out to other parts of Central and South America and I just kind of leave it up to them. I don't get into that after a second here. Wow, that is amazing. So when you first started, I mean rewind a little bit because you went through it so fast. No, I'm sorry. There's a lot of moving parts here, right? Yeah, so when you first started, you said you started with the pet product and you were actually manufacturing? Yeah, so we partnered up with a person in Asia and China to start and we manufactured. The first thing we did was our puppy pads and we brought it here. We actually made the puppy pads for our store, a chain of pet stores I was involved with in Taiwan. So they were being made in China for my Taiwan stores. And when I moved back to Honolulu, I just kept them over as well because at that time, you know, in 2007, no one had that type of pad that we have now here. Now, obviously since then, other companies have brought product on board, but when we first brought it here, nobody had it and it was just so far and so much better and much more affordable than anything on the market. Oh, interesting. It's like I always thought puppy pads always existed. I mean, you know, initially the puppy pads on the market was basically a piece of plastic with some newspaper on top. They basically glued it together. That was the original puppy pad. And you know, and the ones we have now have other proprietary things in there like pheromones and other things that make a dog want to go through and use that and make a burble knot. It won't leak and all those other things. But we were one of the, we're lucky, I was living in Asia. Like I said, I saw all of those products in Japan and in Asia, I'm like, wait a minute, there's none of this in America yet or at least in Hawaii yet. And then we brought it back, we brought it in. So did you help with the design and manufacturing of that product? Or was it just the bringing it in? No, so initially we just specced it out. I knew in Hawaii, people are very pristensitive and what they were making at that time was really a super, super high-end product, which when I looked at the number, they wouldn't really work in Hawaii, it would just be too expensive. So we kind of specced it out. Like, okay, how low can we go before this thing actually stops working at an effective rate where people are gonna want it? And so it took us a few months to kind of understand the process of making that. And kind of once we got to that number of what the formulation and what the ratios on everything were, then we made our to our specifications. So all of the stuff that you see in the store, whether it's under the Malama brand, the Bikuhuna brand or the Kanaka brand, everything is specced out. And it's not just a puppy pad, but our dental treats, our snacks, and everything else has a specification, right? X amount of weight, X amount of grams, X amount of density, all of that. We don't, very seldom do we just say, okay, I walk into a restaurant, I'm ordering off the menu with these factories. We kind of go in and say, we want this and you make X for us. Well, I think a lot of people, and I think where a lot of people get caught up is, now with the advent of Alibaba, it's easily, oh, I want this. I go to Alibaba, I search for it. And you don't really understand that the menu that a factory offers you may not really be what you want. So there is some time and understanding you gotta put into it and make sure like, okay, are there specifications in the item that you want that makes your item unique and different and that fits the market, right? Exactly, understanding your marketplace, right? So a lot of people, they go out and buy something, get shipped here and like, wait a minute, this is not what I thought it was. Well, you know. Wow. So do you actually have that expertise in-house to help you design all these different products or do you consult with somebody or? You're looking at the guys. I learned all of this over time. You just kind of just learn as you go along. One of the other things we do is we also develop and we own grenade gums and we develop that from scratch. There's no other gum like that. And it was just an idea that went out from my partner's head and we're like, hey, let's go figure out. So two years, we learned how to make gum. We went through a whole bunch of path to eat them. We're basically like, why can't we do this? You know, they're like, no, you can't do that. They're yelling at us. I'm like, why? Cause we don't know any better, right? I mean, we're asking the simple question of why and they said, well, cause we've never done it. Well, that doesn't mean you can't do it. It just means you've never done it. So that's a different answer. Yeah. So hence, you know, a grenade's gum is was something that was an idea that just started to scratch. And learning on the fly and trial and error. Yeah. You know, you make mistakes and you pick up and you know, a lot of traveling, a lot of flying and you know, I'm slowing it down. Obviously. Going junk gum. Yeah, chewing a lot of bad gum over the couple of years, yeah. Oh my gosh. It's so interesting. That's so crazy. Yeah. So once you have your products, how do you go about finding your suppliers? Or like, because you're the wholesaler, right? How do you? Where there is different, right? Cause we're vertically and horizontally integrated. So we kind of distribute our own products, we sell our own products, we manufacture to contact the partners on things, right? I'm a little different than the most. I know I don't look like it, but I'm actually three quarters age, you know. I'm half Taiwanese, quarter Chinese and a quarter Hawaiian. The Hawaiian really, really won that fight, right? So my whole, my mom's side of the family all still is in Taiwan. So I mean, and I'm just growing up. I know I don't look like it, but again, I speak fluent. I was born there, I understand the culture. So, you know, just when it started, it was just a bunch of friends who kind of helped me get started. We're kind of in some of that business in manufacturing and stuff. And they kind of put me in contact. And it's over the years, friends meet friends, we had to go out and have dinner. And just over time, and then, you know, you start dealing with factories that you need to use. For instance, the Puppy Pad factory, we've dealt with them for over 20 years now. We have the same factory. And then he's also put me in contact with other people to manufacture some of my things. So a lot of my things are really relationship based. So I go into it. They know who I am. They know where legitimate. They don't think that we're just a, you know, somebody clicked on me on Alibaba or Alipi or something where they're just, where they're, okay, I know they've done business. He kind of knows what he's doing. He's a legitimate business. We're going to get paid, you know, kind of stuff. Right? So that all adds to the validation to help you get what you want done. And when you ask them to do things, then it's a little, it's a lot of different than if you're just clicking on a link for a factory that you met at a trade show and say, oh, can you guys make these modifications for me? And they're looking at it like, we don't even know you're going to invest time and effort and we might not get anything out of it. And he's going to shop our place and everything else. So it's a, for, you know, I hate to make it sound like that, but, you know, I'm going to definitely in a completely different circumstance than most people out there. So. Wow, but that's really good because you have friends and family already. Exactly. And then we have eyeballs up there, right? So kind of help me out. But then you also did a lot of traveling yourself. Yeah. On average, I used to average about 200,000 miles a year flying. Wow. Yeah. So. Oh, it's nice because they give you a lot of perks, but it's just tiring. And I'm getting up there. So, you know, my goal last year, or the 2019 was to end the year under 200, which I did the first time in like six years, it was. And last year, obviously, with COVID, you didn't really travel at all. Zero. Zero. Pretty long, not zero. I actually flew to Asia in January. Wow. And that's when I realized COVID was the real thing. I was in Taiwan and they were already, this is in January, they're already locking on. And I came back and I, we got all our PPE for our warehouse. We huckered down. Yeah. And we got all the people, we got all the cleanings with everything up front. Wow. Just to withstand it all. Oh, that's crazy. Yeah. How important do you feel that face-to-faces like the traveling and going to the factories and. Absolutely. I think it's priceless because it's, when you're blasting emails off back and forth, there's such a level of impersonal, right? But that's the real world. Real world. Where, you know, a lot of these people who are especially staffed, they're like us. They're like me, right? They built this from themselves. And, you know, if they see you building something, there is a level of like, oh, he's one of us. She's one of us. And if you're sincere and you come with references, then they also look at you like, oh, okay. You know, I can work with this guy and then break him ready. And, you know, I do a lot of business in Asia. And Asia's still done a lot of the fashion where, where you sit down, you have meals, you have some drinks, maybe a few, too much drinks. But, you know, it's still done. It builds the relationship. Exactly, right? I mean, you know, if one of those things, if you cannot, if you have two beers and you fall on the ground and you can't remember what you said, it's kind of like, you really want to do business with this guy, right? Kind of. So there's a level of where, you know, when things in person, you know, the face-to-face time is as much about your character as about your business acumen and your business itself. Like, do you really want to do business with this person? And it goes both ways. You know, I look at that as well. And I've met people and like, yeah, I know. I don't think our personalities match up too well. And so, you know, part of this is you want to be in business with someone that you know you can count on and trust because I got to come back here, return around and face my clients and my customers. And they got to be able to trust me. So there is a chain effect in there, right? Where it's only as good as the weakest link, right? So having these people tell you, okay, I'm going to get your computer, your order out in 35 days. Well, it better be 35 days because I'm telling everybody here it's 35 days. I said, I look like the bad guy. I look like the liar, right? So there's got to be a level of trust here. I would say make sure you know the people you're dealing with. You know, in the Hawaii culture, you know, when you show up somewhere and you have somebody at some Omiyagi where there's some corner coffee and some mac and nuts, that goes such a long way. And you don't want to go, whenever I'm doing a business in Europe and you're on the mainland, you know, I'll always show up, I'll never show up and be handed. I'm always getting mac and nuts and corner coffee helping the Hawaii, the other Hawaii industries, right? And they're just like, yeah, and they're like, oh my God, you know what I mean? Yeah, okay, that goes a long way. It starts the conversation off right, right? I mean, you know, it's hard for someone to give you something and be, and then somebody has to be upset at you for giving them something. So just start the conversation off in the right foot. Well, how did you, when you first started importing to Hawaii, how did you start? And then do you have any like, memorable challenges or problems that you faced that you could just share so people don't go out? So I'm a firm believer of hire into your weakness, like do what you're good at and pay someone else to do everything else because there's no way you can do everything. So I've been with American Custom Brokers for over 20 years. And again, I was there long, all the guys were there, I've already retired and I'm still around so that's a long time. But yeah, but you know what? I use them as a great sounding board, a great reference for information so that I can make sure that even before it is tied to do something, is there any special things I need to know about this specific stuff so that I make sure it's even worth my time to get into this business or is it gonna be much of a headache importing and there's such the regulations and filing and certain certificates I'm gonna get is a fact you're willing to get those certificates for me, all of those things. So I mean, the guys at ACV, American Customs, they've been a great resource and I'll say use them, find out, talk to people. So you know, one of my horror stories is why it wasn't, hey, they didn't do it at ACV either. I was making some products, I was actually going straight to the mainland for one of my customers and I get notifications from the factory that they loaded my container without ready to go. And so it was a small port, so the small ports in China, but from a small port to one of the big ports and getting those big ships and then, so it looks like, think of young brothers, there's a little things like that, they fit eight containers on, if you guys have been to Hong Kong, you'd seen those little putty barges that fit like four or six containers on top. So I guess one of them stink, sunk. Oh my God. No one told me. So you shouldn't have been just, you're like waiting for it and then didn't ever show up. I'm like, wait, where's my rival notice? I called and they're like, oh, sorry, it's the bottom of the China sea. I'm like, what? And then I have to sit there and explain it. And so yeah, so that's pretty much as bad as it gets. Now I guess young brothers have that a few months would go to and yeah, that's as bad as it gets is when something ends up at the bottom of the ocean. Luckily knock out what has happened once in my life and over the last 20 plus years, so it was good, yeah, but you know, I would tell people, find a broker, like anything but anything else, whether you go from the lawyer, a doctor, a accountant and just face a broker, you want to interview them, talk to them, make sure you're comfortable with the team and what they've done and how long they've been around and are they doing other things in your market that, so they're familiar with your job. Yeah, and you want to make sure that they're on it, right? And then pick it around. I mean, obviously I use ACG, I use it forever, but there's other companies in town, right? So you don't see which one works personally wise for you so that you have the ease so that when you hand things to them, you're comfortable and then you can go focus on what you do best, whether it's sale, manufacturing, distribute, trucking, delivering, whatever it may be. So that's interesting that you can actually go to a broker, like if you just have an idea of you want to bring something in, they'll help you decide whether or not. This can be brought in, this cannot be brought in, for instance, if you want to bring in t-shirts, they'll say, oh, you know, every year there's a quota, you can only bring in X amount, so if you don't bring it in, then you're too late, sorry. So they'll let you know, right? Oh, you know what? A punitive tariff just hit. This is gonna cost you 50% more than what you thought. Right, so the model doesn't work, right? So all of that. I ask ACV, anytime I have any new ideas, I ask them, okay, are there any tricks on this? Are there any hurdles that I need to be looking out for? I mean, what are the tariffs that gonna be coming in? Are there any special certifications, any government, you know, requirement, right? But you know, hey, do I need a vet certificate? Do I need a USDA on authorization on that? Is that where the factory has a US gain? I mean, all these types of things, you need to know in advance, because what you don't want, land here, and realize you need it, because you thought you could do it all by yourself. And then the container sits on the dock for three months as you get all these paperwork, and it's literally, the first couple of weeks is $40 a day, the next couple of weeks is $8 a day, and it's $200 a day. Wow. So it adds up quick, right? So you do all, you know, now it's a prevention word, you know, pounds and pounds, this is a ton of cure, right? And so they're not like, I'm just thinking, they're not like lawyers, right? Like they won't charge you as soon as you got them on the phone and asking. No, you know, I mean, like I said, I've asked them, and maybe it's my relationship with them for 20 plus years, but I call them all the time, and I'm like, hey. Yeah, and they're just happy to share. Oh yeah, and they're like, hang on, let's look it up, and then they'll send me an email or something, yeah. And they're, like I said, the guys at ACB, they're great. You know, they understand that they're challenges and they want to work with everyone because I think at the end of the day, everybody in Hawaii really roots for everybody else in Hawaii. You know, so I think that's a good thing. I think that whole, you know, Hawaii, Kama Aina family culture, I mean, everybody roots. Now, yeah, we're top, there's a level of competition with everybody, but I think everybody at the end, they really roots for everyone else. Just to keep, no one really wants to see another person fail and have things blow up and lose their life savings or anything else. But I think it's so interesting, like once I'm figuring out this whole import-export business, and a lot of it is wholesaling to retailers, and it's like, you don't realize what goes into these products that you just see at the store. Yeah, believe me, under COVID, it wasn't even more challenging. It wasn't even more challenging under COVID. It's so crazy. And so you were mentioning to me before, some of the tariffs and the policies that have been happening with this last administration, how has it been affecting you? There's been a few times, three times where we get notification that, hey, the tariffs are starting at the end of the month. We're like, wait a minute. And the broker, the broker will tell you? Yeah, like, hey, Dave, just what's happening, that bill passed and it starts at the end of the month. We're like, wait a minute, I got stuff in a pipeline. I mean, for us, we planned things out like four, five months, six months in advance, where we submit the prices to the retailers and everything's done. And all of a sudden, half way through, we get fit. I mean, three years ago with the Christmas, when the tariffs went in, we had a whole Christmas buy and everything in for the store. All the Christmas bags and garland, everything was coming in. And all of a sudden, it's like, what do you mean 25%? I'm not even making 25%. And they're like, well, that's the law. So it hurt. And it's already ordered. It's already ordered. It's already paid for. The fact the, and the retailers are like, hey, you submitted this to the prices, we also had you on these prices. It's all we're gonna pay you. And you just sit there and you just take it. That's why things matter. That's why having competent people in my mind in places matter. Because it doesn't, I mean, I don't know where anyone else is watching this political section where they land, but thinking China's paying for these tariffs, you're out of your mind. Guys like me paid, we paid a lot. Over the last several years, I can tell you, and that prevented me from hiring more people and upgrading things. And it's not going anywhere. It's not productive. And things at the shelf gets more expensive for the average consumers, right? You raise it 25%, I got to pass it on. I can't not make money, you know. They, Iliu is a dot com, not a dot word, right? We're not here to be trying to give them stuff a way to lose money, you know? I don't have a grant somewhere that can be back after the fact. That is crazy. Yeah, so I mean, it does make a difference. Yeah, but are you able, because you have a relationship, can you sometimes work out deals to kind of- Yeah, so I mean- Would you find a factory to help you? Yeah, so luckily, you know, we were with the same manufacturers for a long time. They knew about it. And so they said, okay, you know what, on these couple that we know you're going to get mail down, we'll give you a few points. Obviously it never covered the whole thing. And then, you know, with the stores, you said, look, we got to figure something out. I can't lose, you know, $20,000 on this container. I'll be out of business, right? But everybody, I think in those circumstances, again, it's great that we're in Hawaii- You can kind of share a little bit. Yeah, exactly. So every, being in Hawaii, like everybody's like, okay, we understand. All about on this one here, because it's submitted, but on the next one, we'll let you do it. We'll make something up, kind of deal. We'll do a makeup down the way, right? So things like that have happened. And again, part of it is the relationship you have with your manufacturer and the relationship you have with your customers. You guys have been on this bond for such a long time. They know you're not playing anything and being aesthetical and being very transparent on what you can and can't do and delivering on what you say you're going to do, right? All those things help when something like that happens. Yeah, yeah, that's good. Again, that's why you go and you have dinners with people and you have a few drinks with people and you talk just about- You've been on Miyagi. Yeah, you've been on Miyagi, right? And you don't only talk about work, you know, you understand that, you know, oh, they've got two kids, one boy and one girl, et cetera, et cetera. They know we've got two boys, I mean, those kind of things, right? And when people look at you, not as a number, a vendor number and at the first thing with, you know, employees that you're trying to take care of too, right? It tends to be much more understanding when things like that are far, far beyond your control. I mean, I had no way to control that, right? There's no way in the world I could ever even fathom that something like that would happen, right? You know, four months earlier when we're talking about what we're going to order, how much of everything. It's so crazy that you have to, I guess because we're in Hawaii too and it's a shipping business that you're actually working for six months in advance, what's actually happened. Like right now, we're already talking about this coming Christmas 2021. What? Yeah, we're already putting together, okay, what do we want? You know, we just wrapped up, we got our final numbers from last Christmas in 2020 and we're looking at, okay, what do we want to bring in? What do we want to adjust, right? March, April, come, we're done. You're putting in your orders already? Putting in our orders, the assembly line starts making our stuff in June. They ship everything out at Lancer in September and it goes in the store. When we started all over again. That is amazing. Yeah, so the lead time, and you know, it's not really a Hawaii thing, right? Because I mean, you know, yeah, I'm trying to make it a long time. Yeah, but any type of manufacturing that's not within your country working its truck in the next three days, I mean, you got to have some lead time. And if even in the US, manufacturing for us, you know, we get, for instance, our dental treats are made in the United States, right? But our bags come from Asia, right? Exactly, so when we're running low on bags, we're like, okay, here's 45 more days that we need to get the bags in. We better make sure we have some bags for the next 45 days. I mean, it's just one of those things. You just always have to be forward-looking. And that's the one thing I would advise anyone if you're watching to kind of be prepared for the potholes, they're going to happen. You're going to fall. You're going to fall. We fell, get back up, right? There's, find a good mentor. I said this, you know, I've given a few speeches at schools and things like that. I always say, find a good mentor because a good mentor can help you through the way that you might not see because you're so focused on the thing that you need to think, you need to focus on to make your business successful. And you want to get back. Yeah, and while, you know, you're so focused on what you have that you kind of miss everything else around you, you know? And having good support system and people who will be very, very transparent and honest with you because they want to see you succeed. That helps. I mean, I've had that along the way. Some really good people, whether it's Steve Meador and some other people, you know, they really kind of helped me make my vision a lot larger in a sense of, okay, these things can happen. Right? And they do it because they feel like, you know, they've been successful and asked, but, you know, part of it is it goes both ways, right? Them telling you bad news is not a knock on you, it's that they care. So you want to, you actually want to look for a problem so that you can learn how to overcome because you're going to face them. So anyone that tells you, you're perfect and you're great and like, yeah, run really, really fast the other way. And it helps if they've been through it before, right? And they know that they know what happens. Yeah, you know, and get as many as you can. Talk to as many people as you can. And use as many resources again. Do what you do well, bring other people for everything else. Wow, you've got so much really good business advice for like any kind of business. I think that's great. You all want to see everyone's 16, Hawaii. I mean, we're on an island, literally on an island. If we don't all make it, we don't help each other out, then guess what? You know, you already have a dream, right? Brain dream, you just got to figure ways to make it work for everyone. I think everyone's got to do a little bit. Everyone's got to do a little bit to kind of make this place better every single day. That's great. I really appreciate it. And so we can find your products all over the place. I have one last random question before we close out. So during this whole pandemic, what has been your favorite movie or TV show that you've been bingeing? Oh, what? This is going to sound such a place game. Okay, I'm sorry. But me personally and my kid, we've been big Star Wars fans forever. I think you know where this is going, right? So my thing during this whole pandemic is the Mandalorian obviously, right? Because there's such a different take on the whole Star Wars trilogy and everything else. So yeah. It's such a good story too. It is, you know, and the way it ended, I think they ended it right. So yeah, I've been a Star Wars fan since 1976 when the first one came out. I watched the Capilani Theater, which is, you know. Is that in the long line? Yeah, it's in the long line. I wrapped around Pan Am building. I remember that it's being six years old. I'm like, what is this movie that, you know, that everyone wants to see? And ever since then, I've been hooked, you know? So we're big Star Wars fans, obviously. The Mandalorian, we kind of went through all of that multiple times. Hey, I think we missed something. Why are you talking about this? And we didn't really go back and watch another episode. Oh, I got it now. I'm a Baby Yoda fan. I think everyone's a Baby Yoda fan. Right? That's good. But yeah. Yeah, that's awesome. Yeah, but Cindy, thank you. I mean, I know our time is kind of wrapping up, but any other questions you have for me? Ask away. No, I mean, I think we covered a lot. I mean, I did want to ask you about the pandemic, like if that has affected your business a lot. Initially, it was hard for us because, you know, all the PPE requirements and the storage change the protocol. So it was really taking so long to make deliveries. We're considered essential, right? Because, you know, everybody uses plates, though. So all of most of our stuff are considered essential. And being that we deliver longs, Walmart, Foodman, Safeway, Pines and all those, just like every store in Hawaii, we deliver, right? So they got to have part of it. But you just kept going. So we just kept going. But what was happening was it was taking so much. What took five hours to deliver now it took like eight hours to deliver. Because each store had to wait. So you have basic wait in line outside and they would call you in one by one. Every time one person came in, they'd have to sterilize everything, clean everything up and the next person comes in. So it just took time. So I mean, it impacted our financials quite a bit in the sense that it just cost so much more to do everything. Wow, you didn't even think about that kind of stuff. All the stuff that happened in the background. Yeah, so all the backgrounds and then on a shelf and then, you know, your employees, you know. But we actually had a few employees like, I can't work, my family's scared, you know, where we had to go and hire people because our employees were like, no, I'm not working early on. No one knew what this was or how bad it was going to be or anything else. And it was pretty, it was pretty hearing where, you know, I was literally making deliveries every day just to kind of help out, get everything done, you know. So I'd make deliveries halfway through the day, come in the office and try to catch up on all my, the work I got to do in here the rest of the day. And so it's, but yeah, the pandemic did affect us. It kind of made us smarter too. I think it made everybody a little smarter, but it's been a challenge in here to get the least. I think everybody kind of stuck together, like I said, a hunkered down, but it's no fun. I'm really waiting for it to go back to normal. You know, the vaccine's taken, I think everyone's doing the same thing, but... I'm glad, I'm glad you guys are hanging in there and doing well. I think that's what everybody, everybody's just trying to hang on. Yeah, survive. Again, a few of my buddies' businesses, they weren't able to hang on, unfortunately, you know, and but it's happened. A lot of them didn't hang on and we feel, knock on wood, we feel very blessed that we are the partners who understood, who worked with us to kind of get things going. And the part that people missed on this whole pandemic was, a lot of our factories were shut down. Oh, the manufacturing side. Yeah, so we couldn't even get product. So there wasn't, you know, so, you know, we used to keep six weeks or so of inventory and that was gone in like two weeks. Everybody was bored, right? And then all of a sudden we just sat here and like there's not much. There was this items tripling in, the factories weren't open and they opened only three hours a day or whatever. Wow. It affected everything all around. There was no, you always want to look for silver lining or something. Yeah, it was just, the silver lining came after when you had all the knowledge, right? Were you, okay, if this happens again, I'm now prepared. Learning experience. Exactly, that's the silver lining of all of this that you prepare for anything. And we hope nothing ever like this happens. I know. Thank you so much for sharing. I think you have. Thanks for inviting me on. Yeah, no, it's, you've given a lot of great advice for a lot of starting businesses. And I really appreciate your time. Thank you so much. I'm just, thanks. Big tough. Hang in there. We will. We will. We don't know any better. Thank you so much for joining me on International Hawaii on Think Tech Hawaii and we'll see you next time.