 To shrink-wrap Hawaii, my name is Steven Philip Katz. I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist right here in Honolulu, and today I am excited because I have as my guest once again, Judith Shibani Davis and Paul Leto McCurdy. And if you don't remember, they are teachers of tantra, sacred sexuality, intimacy for men and women, and they're here to talk about the meetup group that's an ongoing thing here, the weekend training coming up in October for couples and singles, and upcoming day-long and residential workshops on Maui and on Oahu. Welcome back, Judith. Thanks very much, Steve. Paul. Thank you. Thanks for having us. So you guys have been doing this now here in Hawaii for almost a couple years. Oh, yeah, we're getting on to a year and a half, two years now. Wow. Actually, I started two and a half years ago, and Judith joined me in January 2016. To do, oh, that's right. It was in January. Yeah. This is our third intro weekend together. Wow. And we've also had one intermediate. So we've done beginners level three times, two times we're doing a third. We've done one more advanced level, which everyone who goes through the beginners weekend would like to have happen right away, but we need to do a couple of the beginners in order to build momentum for that. But the community is really coming in long and growing, and Paul's doing a great job on them bi-monthly. Well, I have a meet-up group, and those classes and those meetings are free, and they meet every two weeks or so, depending on my travel schedule, and that's been the challenge this past year, that I've been traveling a lot, and so it can't be that consistent. But my traveling is kind of wrapping up in the end of August and September, and so we'll have another whole series, usually about a block of eight meetings. What happens at the meet-up groups? The typical, it's only a two-hour meeting, usually in the evening, seven to nine p.m., and it's a place where people can just learn a little bit about some of the energetic practices of Tantra. I usually run it according to the chakra system, so that we can just kind of go down the path and give them a sample of what kind of practices are involved and give them a really safe place to experience it, and it's just a ton of fun, and usually after nine o'clock, it's nobody wants to leave, and we have to, you know, it's a work night, and we got to kind of, okay, gotta go, and it's building a really nice community, and that's what's really fun. So to the uninitiated who may have just heard the word Tantra and sexuality, I mean everybody's heard that word, I'm afraid that the listeners are going to think, oh, so like everybody gets naked and has sex at the meet-up groups? And not at all. It's all clothes on work, very safe, super, I want to say almost conservative, and we talk about breath and communication skills and consciousness, you know, putting our thought to what we're doing about our sexuality and our intimacy, rather than just weighing it and fumbling through it. So it's more of a focus that we're trying to teach the men and the women to bring together. Is there a difference between the kinds of questions that men and women ask at the meet-up groups? I don't think so. I think that they seem to be pretty consistent, you know, amongst men or women. They have the same kind of questions about it, because it is, most times there's about half the people have never been to a meet-up before, and then there's a group that comes to all of them, and they, because once they come, they want to keep going, and they go, this is great, and they come back, and have a fairly small space that only holds 20, 25 people, and we're getting 25 people reserved for the meet-ups, plus 10 on the wait list almost every time now. Wow. So it's, you know, and I tell the people that have been there, don't bother to RSVP and take up the space on the RSVP list, just come, because enough people who RSVP don't show up, you know, they just don't show up for, you know, life gets in the way, and so there's always a little room, and if by chance everyone were to come, well, we'd just fit in, you know, we'd make a room and make space, and it would be fun. So people who've never been, how would they find out, how would they find your meet-up group? Meetup.com, Tantra, Yoga, Oahu. That's simple. Yeah, and just type that in, and it'll pop right up, and they're all on their schedule. So Judith, you had also mentioned to me that one of the things you'd like to talk about are groups that you're going to have specifically for men and specifically for women. Yeah. Oh, why separate it like that? You know, it's a really fun, safe way to try out some of your thought forms, possibly negative thought forms. You want to kind of take a poll, the rest of the women. Do you find this to be true when, and what do you do if, and this is a much better, when it's all women, much more likely to get together and tell the truth to each other and reveal what they're secure about, what they're insecure about. One of the things I really want to do with this idea is teach, have a woman's day-long workshop with a particular topic, and then use Paul to come in for an hour at some point to be Ask a man a question. And I will do the same for him when he does a men's group. So the men have a chance to ask a real-life woman, is this really true? Because I've always thought that. And what we're learning is that people respond really well to it. It's like training wheels. Because then another exercise that we lead up to when we do more advanced co-ed groups is something we call the fishbowl, where a group of women sit in the middle and they have a woman's group and the men are quiet and just observing on the outside and they don't get to talk. You put duct tape on it. Duct tape is for the women when we switch. The men rarely need duct tape. Oh really? We don't really use duct tape. But the women are more likely to want to add, want to comment, you know. When the men are talking. It's an extreme Because the men have it so wrong. Men are always needing improvement. In fact, that's one of the interesting things that I've been studying this year is the Allison Armstrong belief that women spend a lot of time trying to get their men to be well-behaved women. That's what they think the improvement should look like instead of actually finding out what is more likely natural for a man. What is the more natural behavior for a man? It doesn't look like a well-behaved woman even though we'd like that to be said. I think that's some of men's fears. Because we've been hanging it on them for so long. If we, you know, put a little effort into finding out what really is the way a man thinks and learn how to communicate to that, then we'll be much more successful with encouraging the man to actually be the man of our dreams. You know that brings to mind. I work with a couple and in their last session the guy was pretty angry. And one of the things he said was, and I'm not making this up. He really said, you know what the trouble is? She wants to wear the pants in the family. And you know the feminist in me was very offended. So I didn't say anything. I just listened and tried to get them both to talk some more about what that means. And did you find anything out about that? Because what I hear is there's a disparity between the masculine and the feminine. Talk more. And each of us has a masculine feminine energies. And you need polarity in the relationship. And this can flux. It can change moment to moment, but it always has to be polarity. It's just like two magnets. If you put the two positive ends together, they reach out to each other, right? It's the same thing in a relationship. So if she's bringing her masculine energy, the wear and the pants in the family are constantly tuned, it forces him to be in his feminine. Well, he doesn't like going there. Well, that's exactly the point. He doesn't like going there. So they're always in conflict because he has to then step up his masculine even more to power her and then it's battle. A woman will never really win the man up battle. They'll never really win. They'll just create conflict. A dear friend of mine, Helena Summer, says, when a woman woman's up, a man will man up. So what does that mean? That means that she creates that feminine polarity. When she turns on her feminine, the man will respond to it. It's much more powerful, in my opinion, for a woman to ask for what she wants or from the feminine perspective. Because what men want to provide, men want to help. We want to support the woman. That's what I want to do. I want to be there. But if I'm getting fought about it, I'm getting thumped about it, I'm going to resist. But if I'm asked from a feminine perspective, I'm going to want to do it, whatever that might be. This is an energy. This is the bridge to Tantra because what we're talking about is the energy of masculine and feminine. Now it's not so that there's no good time for the men and women to neutralize each other. Let's say you're in the kitchen really wanting to cook together. You both want to be in more of a neutralized place because you're cooperating and doing things together. Very difficult for some couples to cook in the kitchen together. For some couples it's better to create the role. Which one of us is in charge and which one of us is not. And that's a better way for some people. But maybe when there are activities where it's really great to neutralize each other, it's very relaxing. Some people spend their entire relationship life in that relaxed place. Wait, what does that mean to neutralize each other? That means it's relaxing, there's not a lot of charge, there might not be a lot of sexual energy, but there's a lot of contentment. Right. We're cooking. We're cooking, although honestly that's not always the most peaceful place to play that game. Too many sharp objects. But the point I'm trying to make is learning what the natural state of a man's energy is and the natural state of a woman's energy is, is a lot what we do in Tantra. And it's not man-woman, it's positive-negative. Because we each have that. So we each have both. We each have both. But I'm more likely to be more comfortable in the negative energy of the feminine. The man is more likely going to be more comfortable in the positive energy of the masculine. So when we bring these ideas into our body and try to learn from the energy of it, I'm going to be a happier person if I can come from my feminine energy in my body, not my mind. Right, but so many of us are not in our bodies. And that's what Tantra does. We put them, you know, so another thing to tell your couple who are like this is yab yam. Remember what yab yam is? You sit, you sit in, but basically if you put your bodies together and breathe, the, just sitting together, this is, we could call this, putting your bodies together. And breathe, the energy will take you to a natural place. The body will do it by themselves. Right. Now the resistance is usually, the resistance is usually, I don't want to, I don't feel like it. Right, right. Well, that's exactly when you say, I'm going to do it anyway. Exactly. And it will, it will, it will correct itself where it needs to be. Well, I'm going to take this opportunity. I don't want to, but we need to go to a break. And we'll be right back with more shrink wrap Hawaii. Don't touch your mouse. You're watching Think Tech Hawaii, 25 talk shows by 25 dedicated hosts every week, helping us to explore and understand the issues and events in and affecting our state. Great content for Hawaii from Think Tech. You're watching Think Tech Hawaii, Hawaii's leading digital media platform for civic engagement, raising public awareness on tech, energy, diversification and globalism. Great content for Hawaii from Think Tech. Welcome back to shrink wrap. I'm still with Shivani and Paul. And you were just talking about the yab yam, which I remember a little bit, and doing things even when you don't feel like it. But in order to do these things, you need to have some skills. So how do you learn these skills? There needs to be a willingness to learn something new and in the beginning usually scary. That's why we do the intro weekends, Friday night, Saturday and Sunday. And my meetups. And meetups. They give people a chance to sample and see what other kind of people are in the same situation or exploring the same topic. Well, I don't think they can emphasize enough how safe it is, because before I did the weekend workshop, I went to the sampler that evening, sometime before that, with a couple who were in my practice. And they didn't do the workshop. I never knew why. But months and months later, another therapist I know who works with them said, oh yeah, they didn't go to that. I said, why? And they said, well, because it was all about switching partners and having sex. And I was like, shock. I had the same look you just gave me as like, no. They specifically said no, like this homework. But there's none of that. It's all with your clothes on, completely safe. Nobody is asked to do anything sexual. Yeah. So I just, I think I wanted to emphasize that. You know, I really want to speak to that because a lot of times couples who are just peeking their head out of whatever cloistered place that they've become so uncomfortable in, they're really shy about revealing some of the reasons they're there or why they've been referred. And they don't have a way to imagine safely that other people are going to be in the room talking about some of the same things that they're going through. And that is definitely a hurdle that they have to get over, that they, that, I mean, we see this every time. And at the start of each one of my meetups, the first thing we talk about is confidentiality. And that anything that is spoken in that, in that meeting stays in that meeting. You're only allowed to talk about your experience and not about anybody else. And that, you know, it's total acceptance and compassion without judgment. So any question is acceptable. And it gives people the permission to ask a question and explore things on a topic that our culture typically is afraid or ashamed of doing. People are terrified of that. When you think about the level of discomfort that grows in an environment where things are secret and unspoken, you know, that's a really hard place to get over. And so here they are, they have trouble. They've gotten themselves to therapists and then somebody suggests they do some sort of group. They can barely go to the therapist together and tell each other the truth. If they could tell each other the truth, they probably wouldn't need the therapist. They wouldn't need me. Right. So, and that is one of the things that needs to be so carefully handheld for, for people they need to, Amira needs to go up and say, what's the scariest thing that can happen? And what will I learn about you? They feel somehow that they're, it's a betrayal. Because I've been working with a men's group for six years. And if I asked these guys what goes on in the bedroom with their wives, that all, that would be unfaithful to talk about. Well, that's a belief people have, right? I know. And if it was my group, I would say, oh, so it must be going really well. Great. And I want to throw in one thing in there. The permission, intimacy isn't necessarily about physical practice. It's about vulnerability and speaking your truth. That's what really brings people. Well, I think that's why it's scary. Oh, absolutely. It's scary. Yeah. But it's so, I mean, my point is that people think that you hear the word tantra and they think it's going to be all about physical practice and sex or something. And it's not, it's a lot to do with just the communication skill. And giving yourself permission to speak to things that you've been afraid to talk about. See, but there's the paradox because on the one hand I hear a guy saying, oh, it's not all about just sex. Oh, I don't need communications. Now I can read about it. But then the other side, like you say, is terrified to talk about it. Well, you can read about it, but that doesn't mean you're going to go do it. And so here we go in a class where we practice. It will give you specific techniques of how do you actually talk about this subject, or how do you actually come to somebody and say, let's sit down and talk about X, whatever it is, that's in a safe way to do it. And there's structure to that process. And we'll give them that in the meetups and give them a chance to practice it. And again, you only can need to reveal what you're comfortable revealing. You don't have to speak your deepest hidden truths, but it gives you the skin. It starts to exercise that muscle and it needs practice. And when you see other people do it, you get a little emboldened. Oh, sure. And yeah, I find that's why I love groups is because you could stay safe and listen to other people. And this little light bulb goes off. Wow, that's me. They're doing their learning for you. And you're both sharing the same experience where it resonates. It's great mirrors. Yeah, they're doing your work. A lot of shadow in there that gets revealed. So just to move a little bit, because I don't want to try not to leave too many things. We were talking before about the difference in over time in people's sexuality and sensuality. What is that like for men and women as they get older? Well, one of the things that's like is their brain changes and their hormone profile changes. And so you can establish an idea about what your sex life should be out of your 20s and your 30s. And here comes your 40s and your 50s. And it's not the same thing. And so you're kind of in conflict with yourself. You're in the past remembering and you're not really being present for the expanded capacity that your heart has as you age. As opposed to your lower chakras, which is all about action and power and passion. We learn as we get older how profoundly important connection is. You see me pointing up here. Connection is versus what we're doing with our bodies together. We mature and we get better skills. And relationships become deeper and more profound. And so as you age and you go to something like a meetup group and you look around, you realize, well, I'm not the only one who's changing. It's different worlds out here. And they meet their tribe, hopefully. And in the meetup, I'm having people in their 20s to their 70s. And it's really, really interesting to see how so much overlap there is amongst everybody. Oh, so you're seeing more similarities than differences? Well, there's differences. But there are similarities and some of the same issues arise with relationship issues. And then each of them gets to see that the young people go, hear what these 70-year-old people are doing. They're like, wow, really? That's like, oh, boy, I can keep doing this. This is what I look forward to. And so there's a lot of learning that goes on amongst the age groups. It's a beautiful thing, you know? It's like a village. It's like, all of a sudden, you're creating this village. When do 20-somethings have a chance to ask a 60-year-old, it's not their mother, something? And they don't really want to know their mother's answer to certain questions. They want to meet other people. It's really a beautiful thing. So that's what these groups, what I'm finding so satisfying is the commonality leads to a mutual learning for each other. We're going to be having preview nights, which actually give an example of what the weekend is going to be like, and who would it be for, and what is an example of some of the things we're going to do as when the summer's over. We're going to have those a little bit September. September October. Yeah, maybe one in August. No, probably September. So where should people go to look for when that is? The meet-up group. Yeah. The meet-up group. Yeah, because I'll post them. I'm so proud of Paul for being the rock for this meet-up group. I mean, the group is really growing, and he's been so solid, and he's really a dependable resource for the kind of things we want to bring with regularity. And that's totally free. That's totally free. So one of the things I asked you before is I mentioned to you that I'm getting some women in their 40s, 50s, 60s who find themselves single after a long time of being a couple, and they have to go back into the dating world. And they're complaining to me that guys just want to get in their pants. That's what they're interested in. And, you know, I listen, and what would you say to these women? I have a new answer for that, because I do remember one thing. There's nothing wrong with wanting to have sexuality in your life as you come out of a long-term relationship, and you're in your 40s and 50s and 60s. So these men are not wrong. They're just afraid that they're going to have to go back to the beginning, like it's going to be like it was in their 20s, and they had to work really hard. And nowadays, mature women want to have a well-rounded relationship with a mature man. So they're going to get a little confused if a man leads with his sexuality. Just the way a woman needs to spend some time learning how a man's brain works, a man needs to remember that a woman is going to hear and see things really differently than him. So he's going to need to speak her language. And it's that same masculine, feminine polarity. Women connect in order before to have sex. Men want to have sex in order to connect. Women need to talk first, men can talk after. So that's the same conflict. My impression of that answer is that I think women need to respect their boundaries and not jump into that pond so quickly. Women need to respect their own boundaries. Yes, if they're not comfortable having sex right away. Do it, okay? Hold it back. Women have the power, they have the power. Thank you, but not now, and I'm honored that you would be interested. So the guy doesn't feel totally discarded. Right, he's not rejected, and he doesn't get hopeless, it's never going to happen. So it's not all that different from being 17. Well, but we didn't know. Did you know that? Well, you felt the rejection at 17. My first girlfriend, I waited a year for her to say yes. Good idea. Now, hard to... You're watching this. If at 17, someone had given you a little handbook about complimenting the way a woman looked, or how nice her perfume was, or how bad it was. I mean, you don't think I was doing it? I don't know what you were doing, but I think there are 50-year-olds that don't do it. They don't realize that if they give the women a chance to lean into them a little bit, you know, then the women are going to feel a lot more safer. So it's a bit of a tango. The man leans back, the woman will come forward. Yeah, it's a little bit of a tango. It's also a little strategizing. Women are strategizing all the time. Men call that manipulation, and it isn't. You don't believe me. No, I do. It's about feeling safe. I don't think that's a manipulation. To strategize... It's about letting trust grow. That's right. And so if a man wouldn't it be great if a man came to a situation and said, you know, I'm not, you know, as much as I really love having sex, I understand that that's really not what's going to be on the table right away. Right. Diffuse, you know, that disarms like oak. Right. But she's thinking, oh. And if a man skedaddles off after hearing that, he wasn't the right guy. So they're telling me this is the time to wrap it up. As always, the half hour is just... It does. Thank you so much for coming on the show. I really appreciate it. And so people go to Meetup and then they go to... Tantra Yoga Oahu. Tantra Yoga Oahu. And they'll find out about the October dates. And they'll find out about where to go for the Meetups and all that stuff. And all the new classes we're going to be having on Maui. Right. The new classes on Maui. Okay. Thanks so much. Thanks again for coming. Thanks for having us. It's nice to have you. I appreciate it. Thank you. Thank you. And join us next time for Shrinkwrap Aloha.