 We'll call the 20th regular meeting of the Common Council to order Sue. Thank you. Thanks, John So would you call the roll please ballman Berg Serta graph Kittleson Laux Manny Montemayor Perez Rindflash None excused Segali Stefan Van Akron Vanderweal excused Warner Thirteen present Holmes present Alderman Warner I move the minutes of the last Common Council meeting of January 3rd be approved and at the same stand is entered on the record We have motion to second before us approved the minutes of the previous council meeting under discussion hearing none all in favor opposed motion carried Alderman Vander Van Akron would you lead us in a pledge please I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for which it stands one nation under God individual with liberty and justice for all The meeting this evening we have a presentation by the Sheboygan police department on our case regards Mayor Common Council I appreciate the opportunity to briefly explain tasers why we've asked for tasers the history of of the request began I would say six to eight months ago when I address several times at different meetings of the Public Protection and Safety Committee concerns of conversations I had with some of our officers some of our officers on the streets we're running into situations of people who were resisting arrest and they were having difficulty maintaining control or getting control back there were some situations that they were concerned that a deadly force may have been used if in fact situations did not get under control at a later time so as I brought these up to public protection and safety I said we are beginning to see some violence on the streets and we have to take a look at what other police departments in the nation and in the state of Wisconsin are doing they're looking to tasers to get control of people who are disruptive or not listening and are opposing a threat to my officers and or to the public I then brought it up at a staff meeting I attended several different presentations on tasers at different meetings or conferences after bringing it up at a staff meeting Lieutenant Tim Irick patrol supervisor volunteered to research the topic to take a deeper look into it some of the issues and and Tim is the main presenter here tonight but I just want to touch briefly on some of the issues how we got started and where we are at this point some of the issues that that raised my concern was that as an administrator of the police department the administrative staff and I were concerned of injuries to our officers concerned of situations where people were not uh... listening to what the officers were saying and of course how do we get these people back under control uh... we must understand that the mission of the police is to maintain peace and to maintain or get control back under or the situation back under control if it is out of control so after Tim uh... volunteered to to research the topic Lieutenant Eric researched the topic he came back and I'll probably steal a bit of his thunder but he initially told me says chief I don't have an opinion one way or the other on these I don't know anything of these and that was certainly a good choice to send because I've seen several presentations and I I've asked him then to to go listen go study and see what you come back with I believe the controversy here I see it is the lack of understanding of the science behind electronic weapons my understanding of this comes from reading of the of Cibmic of this October two thousand four uh... their uh... recent pamphlet put out on tasers uh... Cibmic uh... speaks of it is not the taser itself because it's effective is effectiveness is not the question or it's not the problem the concern is when where and how these are applied or used and that's called policy policy development as to what and when and what sort of situation they're used under my understanding and if uh... if you look at today's paper the fondlec reporter it was addressed in today's paper that fondlec common council and or the county I'm not sure which entity however uh... they have tasers in each and every one of their squad cars in the county of fondlec effective so it's not only the city it's the entire county thirty five squad cars in the county of fondlec have we come here today because as capital outlay items were put on the table during the normal budgetary process we came in with multiple request one of course was our vehicles uh... we asked for uh... number of thousand hundred thousands of dollars and we got a third of that funding and we had a hundred forty thousand dollars awarded to us with remaining ten thousand dollars to be used in all sorts of different areas that we had requested a budget some of these were tasers the backup power system for our nine one system transcribers software police range and it goes on and on so in order to distribute that remaining ten thousand dollars we then placed assortment of money here and over there and over here our taser a package or the program that uh... lieutenant irrick said would be sufficient for our department which i agree uh... was twenty one thousand eight hundred fifty dollars so of the ten thousand dollars remaining in the capital lay project we used two thousand dollars of that to stick into the taser program to get this started uh... we also have a private uh... citizen who said he would donate uh... two tasers to this to get this up and running as we as we look at this this is how and why we're here today the program that we are talking about is a package that tim will probably discuss but it involves twenty tasers and we would distribute them as we do with police radios we don't have a police radio a portable radio for every officer uh... nor do we we would ask eventually down the road uh... for a taser for each officer however uh... as they go out on the shift they're awarded or given a radio for the day and we would then present them a taser to be used during the day also uh... twenty tasers we equip one shift out on the road and then the next shift going out would then be given their tasers and then you would uh... exchange these and and charge them up and what else you need to do with them to keep them up and running as i said before the controversy of the tasers i believe is a lack of understanding in my understanding of the tasers and what i've read is that it overrides the central nervous system which means that it the central nervous system is the system that provides the body the ability for a person to move his hands and it's the message is coming from the brains to the muscles to respond and act appropriately well it disables that it targets the electrical charge targets the muscles and disrupts the communication between the nerves and the brain so that it shuts it it disables the entire uh... muscle system and you'll see this in a demonstration uh... put on when tim received his training my understanding is that the brain in the heart operate on a different system completely it's it's called your independent nervous system so your brain continues to operate or your lungs in your breathing things of this nature does not target that you must remember as i spoke earlier administrative role uh... is certainly uh... to attempt and i would be remiss not to look for less deadly tools for my officers uh... to use uh... there was uh... i must talk about the force continuum or the levels of force that the officers are trained in that we deal with uh... levels of force initially our mere presence when an officer walks into a room there's five different levels of force that we are allowed by by law of course to use to gain control or compliance first level forces mere mere presence you walk into a room and if someone's arguing your mere presence or a presence of a uniform officer sometimes will stop that the next time or the next level of force is dialogue we come into a room and will say listen it's enough you go this way you go this way that sometimes is enough to handle that then it's called empty hands compliance and this is where we're dealing with the taser empty hand compliance is the use of a baton is the use of pepper spray and this is where the state of wisconsin training standards is placed the tasers they've paid they placed a taser in this level of force before baton so baton is an impact weapon but on his meant use as a strike it's an impact weapon meant to hit the muscles or the bones or the knees stop someone's resistance it's meant to cause damage it's meant to cause bruising to shut down that muscle system or to draw the attention is meant to break bones at times impact weapons do damage they injure the person they injure the officers even our own training officers get struck by accident and they get injured tasers and the best benefit of tasers is it does not cause injuries it causes less injuries it causes less workman's comp claims it's another tool the tasers is another tool that we're looking at to use four thousand police departments in the nation use tasers we must understand that when i we just recently uh... lieutenant erick and i were talking about this last week right before public protection and safety and another one of our officers was resist it was fighting with a resistant a person and he ended up with damage to his shoulder now i'm telling you it's it's come time that we look at these other options that are out there on the market because as i said before uh... the officer's job is to maintain order and it's no longer is it acceptable nor has it has it ever been acceptable for my officers to sit around and wrestle on the street with someone and then end up getting injured i think it's come time that there's an opportunity to use another option out here that has been accepted around the nation our police department and our officers at times deal and work in a violent world we deal and work with people who use violence who do not listen to what an officer says i need not say uh... recent example of the bar fight just the other night again tenth in michigan avenue where gun shots were heard from a disturbance we deal in a violent world at times people and it's it's meant and that's our job and it's meant to make your safe your world a little safer now what it's jewels jewels is is a a term used as you talk about what these units are and a taser is a device about one pound it has a battery pack and it has uh... prongs that are shot out with two cartridges of of nitrogen to use propel them they should they shoot out and they're called jewels of energy now an amp an amp a jewel is if you break an amp down now i don't know all the most about electricity but i tell you what i read is an amp if you break one amp of energy down into one thousand pieces a jewel is of those pieces now a taser uses point three six to one point seven six jewels per pulse so you understand that it's it's using a real small piece of amperage here and that's the key to this that tim will get into as i said before you're looking at uh... a taser uses about five or fifty thousand volts of energy a lightning if in comparison uses about thirty million volts of it's been as high as thirty million volts uh... high voltage is about a thousand volts but the amperage is real low and that's the key to a taser so as i as i talk the you know it's very interesting if you see some of these presentations the key to this and i believe it is it's it's an officer's safety concern and it's public safety concern less injuries to my officers because i no longer find it acceptable that i my officers have to wrestle around on the ground to control people that happened in the day when all three of us lieutenant deputy chief sherman i worked the streets you would wrestle with people to the ground because there wasn't any other methods now now it's called tasers i believe that tim would talk of appleton that they reduce their workman's compensation claims last year in using it you have less lawsuits because that the uh... violence and the the energy that we apply against these people not in the times and and we don't use pepper spray pepper spray of course if you see if you spray you must immediately decontaminate the person you must take him and wash them out effective target zones of a taser is the body where with uh... pepper spray it's the eyes and nose area where the baton and it's the usually the large muscle groups and me i went on longer than what i probably should have and what i had anticipated uh... i think it's tasers are one more tool that i'm asking that you take a look at it's uh... well accepted used by four thousand police departments and seven thousand correctional agencies and police departments combined if you put those combinations together so as i said today the uh... the latest on the font lack reporter is that the font lack county every squad car will have a taser and it's i think it's come time that we address this i think it's come time that uh... a taser provides less injury to the uh... perpetrator persons who's resisting arrest less injury to our officers less trauma uh... to the person who's been arrested less trauma to his family uh... because there are no law lasting injuries as uh... baton would produce so i think it's come time enough is enough and i think if there's a tool out there for our officers to be safer uh... i think it's uh... certainly appropriate that the common counsel take a serious look at this provide funding good evening before you just present a little more in-depth as to what the chief talked about have a uh... video from one of the shares from uh... florida you'd mind it takes about two minutes talks about the tasers in your implementation in their department i'd like to play it for you before you talk about it i can tell you that the north county sheriff's office in the late two thousand had six tested evaluation tasers since then we bought five hundred more tasers and if things look good at the end of the air budget we're going to go to full implementation now i'll also tell you that since we've uh... what the case is on the street we've dropped our injuries definitely by eight percent and folks for the administrators in this room and the training people you need to go back and make sure that this tool is properly placed in your use of force matrix don't put it out there all the way to get the force or you won't get the results you need to put it in when that sucker wants the price it's time to put it down we went from thirteen use of firearms situations in the year two thousand the four and two thousand and one and i went fifteen months without a shooting and let me make one thing perfectly clear taser is fabulous absolutely a great tool out of eight hundred uses of taser folks we've received only sixteen complaints we've seen a dramatic reduction in the use of day nine by force we apprehended more and more every year they're not fighting as bad we've seen a drastic reduction in impact weapons, chemical agents and physical force reduction in liability insurance for the administrators and training people in this room we've also recognized the noticeable deterrence of resistance by suspects who are aware that there are deputies on the street with the taser i love going into areas where they say you got bad guys grabbing other bad guys not saying hey man you don't want the chair leave the chair, he's got a chair don't touch that you need to calm down and folks i can tell you that cost is the main deterrent, consider this a million dollar lawsuit or money saved on a workman's comp claim probably could buy a whole lot of tasers in your agencies i've learned from my troops that as more deputies are authorized to carry the taser they are choosing to utilize it as opposed to the other weapons in every category whether it's chemical, physical, impact weapon or firearm the use of those types of forces reduce significantly each year since the taser has been deployed with that i'd just like to introduce i'm tim arvick i'm a lieutenant on the police department i'm not an expert in tasers like the chief said i had an opportunity to spend some time with taser and a national learning how to be an instructor for taser really when i went there i didn't realize i was going to be an instructor i thought i was just going there to hear their spiel on how good this weapon is and when i get there i find out that it's an instructor course so we learned that way it was eighteen hours of training that i received from the company plus a lot of homework that we had to do so i do have a little background just a little bit about a taser right now as of today they've had about a hundred thousand tasings and that's not a hundred thousand people that were tasers that's a hundred thousand probably officers and some suspects that were tased during that time as of this date there has been no directness attributed to a taser right now there's an excess of four thousand departments that use tasers i think that's higher that's closer to six thousand when you talk about across the world uh... federal government organizations and the big thing and the most important thing about a taser is that ninety nine percent receive instinct incapacitation in less than a second there is no other piece of equipment right now that is that effective and the other one percent is generally due to officer air that's usually you miss the person or there's too bulky of a clothing or you may have a battery malfunction on the weapon so virtually nothing is a hundred percent but this weapon is is approaching that a little bit on how does a taser work most people think a taser is nothing more than a weapon that shocks people well that's wrong it doesn't shock you it's a e m d device what is e m d it's an electoral muscular disruption taser works off of the same thing that your brain works off of all our brains send signals to any part of our body such as i just move my hands my brain is telling me through electrical charges that i have to move my hand a taser does the same thing taser works off of a t-wave which mimics the same waves that our brain sends out to all our muscles so when a person is shot with a taser what it does it overrides the central nervous system and it disrupts sensory and motor on nervous system what it does is it just it overloads the system which causes uh... your muscles to tense up and at that point you're not allowed you can't do anything a little bit on the medical history i know that most people are really they're not sure how bad this is as he talked in there they said the chair as it's known on the street the taser is fifty thousand volts and i know that for most people they go that's that's shocking but when you think about it if i walk up to a doorknob in my house on a carpeting and it's an extremely cold day like we've had in the past couple days i may get almost as much as twenty five thousand volts when i touched that knob so it's not all that much more than you touching a knob but what's more important in a taser is what kills a person is amperage a taser puts out point zero zero four amps that's the extent of it what that converts into is jewels as the chief talked about which is point three six jewels so now everyone wonders okay if i if i get tased how does that look as it compared to a cardiac defibrillator well cardiac defibrillator like we carry goes anywhere from one hundred and fifty the four hundred jewels per pulse remember i just told you a taser is point three six jewels so therefore if we use a defibrillator on a person and a person has a pacemaker the federal government mandates that that pacemaker has to take at least four hundred jewels and obviously there's a safety built in so i'm not sure exactly what the safety is but it's well above that so what you're looking at is no way can a taser affect a person on it that has a defibrillator has a a pacemaker i'm sorry also age is not affected by a taser nor is water if a person standing in water and the officer shoots a person with it they're not going to be electrocuted you ask where do we use this weapon as the chief explain before all officers work on a force continuum which is mandated by the state of wisconsin the continuum basically starts off with uh... talking and it goes up all the way up to using your weapon which is deadly force a taser is placed in right after the empty hands compliance which means if i ask someone to place their hands behind their back and they don't the state does state that i can use a taser at that point generally officers aren't going to use it that low they're usually going to wait until someone becomes a little resistive to it but it actually is below the use of pepper mace and it's also below the baton so therefore the state sees this as a very safe type of weapon when used against the public so you ask yourself why does the police department want to go to a taser well there's many reasons some of our this weapon is very effective and efficient as they say before ninety nine percent instant incapacitation in less than a second officers don't have to have to roll around on the ground with them there's no long-term effects the injuries that many uh... people have our minor skin irritations muscle soreness dizziness which is very short term and sometimes minor bleeding from when the uh... taser shot into the person from the prongs there is no known nervous system damage nor is there any heart or brain damage it works well in all environments and weather conditions which is important to us it reduces the need for medical treatment of individuals who otherwise would have been subdued by a police baton or pepper spray and like the chief explained to you when you hit a person with the baton you're gonna break bones you're gonna hurt them seriously if you use all see you end up on having to clean up that person some of the times they have to go to the hospital the other part with all see is is that no matter what you will see the person you still have to go hands on and most officers get some of that on them and they end up having the effects of all see it reduces it reduces uh... i'm sorry it works on all types of individuals and there are no known cases where individuals are able to develop pain tolerance through this they cannot fight through this you can't develop a pain tolerance where we'll see you can and baton you can too a lot of times you're gonna find when people are very high on drugs you can hit him as many times as you want with that baton you can hit him in the knee you can him in the elbow where strike zones are and it has no effect on at all atteser you're gonna taste the person and they're gonna go down it works especially well on high are people who are high on drugs or emotionally disturbed people where otherwise methods to subdue them are ineffective i hate to keep going you know you don't want to talk about war stories but about eight years ago a partner my we ended up arresting an individual down along lakefront that was high on drugs i'm telling you it was the worst war ever went through it was about nine minutes of total fighting equipment was laying all over the road we never did subdue this guy until we got six people on it just whatever you did to this person you couldn't stop him the weapon is medically safe even on individuals who have pacemakers as i explained before police departments have seen a huge reduction in officers injuries related to subduing and controlling subjects so how does that affect you well that's workers comps as in appleton they reduce their workers comp in their first year by thousand tens of thousands of dollars that's important because that money is directly that doesn't have to be budgeted it also means that that officer can be on the road he is not off the road it reduces a reduction in lawsuits reference excessive force the weapon also has a computer built into it only uh... trained individual who uh... such as myself the trainer can download that information what it tells you is the date the time the weather conditions the duration the number of times you pull the trigger on this weapon so therefore an individual comes back and says to the police department the officer placed this weapon on me and he shot me for twenty minutes constantly we can go back to this weapon and we can check and find out what it actually was was it a one five second burst or was there two five second burst the officer cannot cheat on that it's encrypted so we can change it so that's really important for us it also gives the option to officers to carry a taser and they can either carry a baton or ocey the other important thing is it does work on animals and you've seen in the past where we've had some animals where we've shot in dogs because we had to a taser will will put a dog down and generally after they get up they're gone there they're gone they're they won't be taken the second time because they break the leads and and they're gone so therefore you don't have to use deadly force when uh... having in when coming in contact with animals the other important thing that i would say in closing is is that the training is only four hours we can do it in house which saves us a lot of money and now that we have individual that is an instructor we can do it there it's not a miracle weapon and i don't want to sell it as that but it is a nice tool that we can use that it does help the officers to protect them gives them a little more security plus it also gives the citizens a lot more security i'd also like to show one more video and i think most you probably want to see what a taser actually does to a person i have one here where a officer actually was tased and i'll show it to you and if you'd like if you have questions i'd be willing to answer them to you just a second five seconds one trigger pull it's automatic five seconds he got shot in the back he went down that's what you're normally going to see because they're most he saw his muscles seized up when he was on the ground after it was over you notice how he just got up smiling and uh... as if he had no ill effects whatsoever but in that time when they're on the ground the officer can actually handcuff the individual if they need to be or at that point they become compliant it's not a very long process council do you have any questions thank you mr. mayor i have a few questions were you tased yes i was okay the five seconds yes i was okay i think you tried to explain what makes the victim lose control and i think i sort of have the idea now how do you remove the darts and you have to worry about aids and sterilizing that and all that on the new uh... tasers there it's a uh... the uh... it's a different type of force that's used so when you do remove it it's actually sealed most officers wear leather gloves and all you do is you put your hand on their back pull the prong pull it out and there's absolutely no bleeding generally there's no bleeding the older weapons there was some minor bleeding and that i had it on the older weapon the m-series not the x-series uh... and i had a little bit of bleeding i bet you know about three minutes it was gone a band-aid and that took care of it but the prongs are going to be used again right now well they're not prongs actually you take the prongs the weapon is a one-time discharge and uh... the prongs are about an inch and a half actually look like a little actual fish hook on the end and once you pull them out of the individual you pull the cap off of the gun and you put the prongs right back into the uh... where they came out of and you throw that whole thing away done and all not the gun just just there's a little there's a little uh... i guess you can call it an ammo cartridge that's put on the end and so they're put in there and they're thrown away and that's the end of it now my question wasn't so much about starting a heart or or interfering with the pacemaker my question is about stopping a heart that somebody like my husband who has that arrhythmia and it's just takes a little bit to push him over the edge of death and of course most um... teenagers that you hear about that die on basketball floors and things like that it is sudden death because they have a fibrillation of their heart and sometimes it takes just a tiny bit to put them over the edge so that's more what i'm concerned about this isn't a shock weapon there is no shock it's a sending waves into your body but it's not shocking your heart it's not shocking your brain so therefore you wouldn't have that they've never had in in over the hundred thousand uses that we've had there has never been one instantaneous death all the deaths that they've had have been attributed to all different kinds of weird things but never to you know and then they directly try to put it back on a tazer but it's never been never fibrillation never never when i went to training school the ages at that training school range from guessing probably in the low twenties to there are some that were in their mid fifties and every one of them took one and had absolutely no problems well yeah but those those were people in good condition and that knew they didn't have any fibrillation problems they've they've done studies with the fibrillators on these with animals in that and it has not affected them at all no it's not once a person has a defibrillator right then it wouldn't or i mean before you get up defibrillator it still doesn't have any effect on the heart doesn't have any effect on the heart okay thank you you're welcome any other questions hold on press thank you mayor is there has there ever been an instance where the individual they got tased needed medical treatment afterwards yes there is for the use of the tazer i mean i'm not talking about anything else yes there has and what kind that has generally been uh... injured elbow injured shoulder i believe there's about twenty incidents is that when it states that's when they fall okay and what does the cheboygan police department have in mind to provide medical help should the tazer be used now i'm referring back to what chief said a policy of when wire where does the police force uh... department have a policy in place now for tazer's the use of the tazer gun no because we don't have tazer i know okay will you put one in place yes we would you will put it would be prior to an m blowing on the road we'd have a policy on it yes okay and you talked about reduction in workman's comps of cases will we be able to add perhaps maybe you can answer that will we be able to track that to see where are workman's comp claims now and where will they be in a year or two i would think that would be fairly easy to check now as far as the use of force and i'm not talking about deadly forces the use of force do we keep a record of that now as to how many instances we've had the police departments had to use just force to the point where perhaps the tazer could have should have been used and just in general terms is pretty high or pretty low we have first off about your policy question we're going through accreditation efforts right now and that's basically what that is is a commitment to policy development to make sure that our policies are the latest policies as we compare them to other departments around the state of nation these will not be used in without policy development and certainly will sit down with other departments who have policy on it so we also have now with this issue we also have a use of force that is filled out and kept in the deputy chief's office so as far as the number of of those i'm now you have to speak on that but we do keep track of baton strikes heifer spray but you're also asking about like if we are wrestling with people yes track of that it's use of force i guess you get to a point and i'm just talking in general terms is it a real high number real low number there's been a you see a you've we've seen an increase so i've seen an increase over my career in the use of pepper spray baton strikes uh... the use of uh... of drawing a weapon on an individual compared to when i first came here substantial increase and yes we do keep track of all as to the just the basic wrestling matches i'm not sure we an officer we don't keep track of those unless it's where some serious forces used where we use on these strikes are elbow blitzes are stuff like that then we would definitely keep track of that that is always put in the report knee strikes or if they're having used force to put the handcuffs on the uh... the reports are kept in my office is a fire arm is drawn if a baton is used if we'll see is used as far as in in those cases there's uh... there would be i would say a couple would come in each weekend this weekend there was one but it's normal for a couple of those to be on my desk each weekend a couple during the course of the week but all the force related in a complaint is in that particular complaint but as far as keeping a chart of when somebody's got a force if an officer's got a force somebody's arms behind their back that we don't have and one more final question the uh... the age group at this thing did you expect to use this thing with i mean you're gonna pop somebody at ninety years old or one year old or two years old what do you do you have something in mind you because of the safety of the equipment you can actually the they teach us you can go two to seventy six or higher again you go back to policy you're not going to use it on a two-year-old you're not going to use it on a attempt generally not a ten-year-old uh... and higher up you we've had people in their sixties and seventies that have been pretty well wrestling very well uh... but again that comes to the professionalism of an officer and in the situations it's just like we carry all see and we carry but times and we don't use those every time we have a resistive person either so this is just gonna be another one of those that fits into our use of force so it's used will be discretionary pursuant to a policy you'll be put in place that's correct i think uh... i guess lieutenant one thing and i remember this for the council say the amount of force that we use or actually the injuries that occur from the use of force in the present way we deal with it when you use tasers the injuries that occur to the officers and to the individuals are down which lowers the medical costs and the time in the hospital people who are tased the criminal and the officers all those issues drop way down rather than having a broken bone person like bang their head a little bit or bang an elbow but they're not cracking up arm or things like that correct? exactly yes you're gonna you're gonna find that every time we've used um... a baton almost every time we should say they're going to the hospital they're gonna want to go to the hospital um... quite a few of the people that are in pepper spray want to go to the hospital um... and then it becomes who pays you know i don't know the exact thing with the taser you're not going to see as you're going to see that very infrequently yes you may see someone fall to the ground in a weird manner because he was tased and may hurt his elbow that that may happen but it's going to happen if we have to use other types of force anyways which are much more detrimental to a person than a taser i could just respond to alderman montmire's concern uh... studies i've read or the one study i read was they had a person who was attached to EKG and they monitored the heart rate when he was tased and there was no effect the heart that the person fell and there was no effect to the heart heartbeat or heart rate whatever the EKG monitors thank you your honor my question goes to the durability of the weapon itself is there a certain limit of the charges you can put into them do they wear out yes they do the battery life is ten years or a hundred fifty nine shots where you shoot them uh... then the battery gets thrown away and you buy another battery and the batteries are a hundred dollars a piece so the batteries are not cheap but a hundred and fifty nine tasings is a whole lot of tasings they have a one-year total guarantee the city can actually buy some extra insurance for a three-year full guarantee that at any point if something goes wrong with that weapon you send it in they send you back a new one so um... they stand behind the weapons they're very simple there's not a lot to them uh... the officers don't fool around with them uh... it's basically you just put the the front uh... clip on where the prongs come out of and you turn the weapon on when you need to that's the sum total of of taking care of it uh... the person that's the trainer he has to do the downloading of when they're done and that may be every once a month or so you can download that into a computer maybe just cleaning the weapons to make sure they're clean but that's about the amount of it uh... my understanding is they've had tasers out there six to seven years and had no problems whatsoever they're not affected by cold they're not affected by wet weather they're not affected by heat so they're very durable they're made out of plastic michael do you have a question? uh... thank you lieutenant one quick question the two thousand dollars that's on our agenda tonight how many tasers is that gonna actually get us a taser cost basically a taser cost eight hundred dollars and that includes um... the battery that includes a holster and the gun itself you also have to be able to buy a data port which is downloading that's a hundred fifty dollars the cartridges uh... that we use on the street are twenty two dollars apiece and then there's training cartridges which are sixteen dollars apiece and uh... i asked for three extra batteries because you always know something's gonna happen with the battery you really don't want to a weapon down if you can keep it up that's where we come up with the twenty one thousand eight hundred fifty that would be total package that's twenty tasers a hundred of the cartridges we'd use on the street two hundred of the training cartridges and that would pretty much take us through the year i would guess that if we needed to our equipment budget would be able to buy the necessary extra cartridges thank you gentlemen representation mayor's appointments that lights over probably four of course is this on i guess it is uh... twenty eight twenty nine area avenue okay thank you can express my thanks for the opportunity speak for the council last time time was called on me so i'd like to including remarks before presenting all my points i would like to summarize what i said two weeks ago the point of that presentation was to call into question the chemist rep committee reports conclusion about shared in park being the best choice for the police station committee report has been held up as the basis of an objective rational impartial decision-making process that just happened to conclude shared in park was a better location and three other sites include report in fact can report as a stacked deck from which shared in park was dealt a losing hand if you recall it disclosed that there was a dirty little secret about the committee report that an engineer in the home office of committee revealed during our phone conversation a few weeks ago that dirty little secret of the committee report compromises its objectivity and discredits the claim that is a worthy document to be the basis of the decision-making process that settled upon the shared in park is the first choice for the police station you see in order rank the various sites being considered made variables are used to produce numerical ratings for each site sherry park receive the top ring of three hundred sixty five the imperial motel site was next to three hundred forty six a difference of nineteen bear that in mind the dirty little secret of the report is that these weighted variables do not represent a universal standard of evaluation it's not like a the national building of electrical code these very from project to project as a reflection of what the sponsors of the project consider important variables can be tweaked to favor particular outcome tweak them one way sherry park is the best choice to eat them differently in the imperial site looks uh... motel site looks the best remember only nineteen points different as two weeks ago who produced the variables known as the site selection criteria in the report who spoke for the citizens and their values and priorities page twenty eight of the committee report says the staff team reviewed the criteria and confirmed that these issues were representative of what was important to selecting a site where this is an input because can report also page twenty eight goes on to state that following the selection of criteria staff team discussion of each issue on each site established a consensus value whose consensus of how that site rated on each issue so it turns out that the same team that decided those tweakable criteria also took control of assessing each site according to those criteria site selection uh... team had access to every tool that would guarantee the exact outcome they favor and assured that any outcome the citizens would prefer would never get a fair hearing the group was judge jury and executioner and they made sure that sherry park received the death sentence citizens can properly ask was on that staff team why they could presume to decide what was important to the citizens of shabuagan i said two weeks ago and i'm sorry again tonight that the staff team was in fact building use committee three all of them all of them berg all of them warner all of them uh... along them was biases against preserving sherry park i'm wrong in my insertions assertions and let the element take the floor present their rebuttals tell me i'm wrong exactly why i'm wrong please tell us that the kimi report is not a fig leaf serving to conceal the alderman's manipulation of the site evaluation process result reduce the outcome they favored and prevent the outcome most citizens would prefer and how would the citizens be given a voice to express their preference you know even though the council ignore the position record requesting a referendum the citizens have recourse to an alternative that would give voice their feelings let me describe this quasi referendum especially to the voters in the fifth district where gene davis is running on the post first of all even though there is no contest please do not sit home on election day go to the polls yes gene davis is not known quality he hasn't voted for against sherry park he does have experience he told me i talked to my home i was going to get up here and talk about this and don't take this personally i'm not against him but when those voters go they can go where it says right in candidate they can write in sherry park i'm sure there are people in his district their fifth district who even though sherry park is not their park they have strong feelings about the park they have strong feelings about how those uh... the council has treated the citizens uh... input and uh... and that has really rough run rough shot over efforts such as the petition these people have a chance by uh... simply writing in sherry park and as a matter of fact every citizen sheboygan has a chance of writing in sherry park on the right in line to express themselves we would have a referendum it would be clear it would be uh... uh... uh... uh... plonifiable and would be reported for the rest of the districts where there will be a contest between two candidates the upcoming primary runoff and elect uh... Pro-election will give the citizens a chance to express their will a very real possibility is for them to change the makeup of the council and thereby make their will know thank you Thank you for having me here tonight. 1323 Superior Avenue, thank you. My name is Emmie Tadek and I'm here to talk to you about an organization that I have recently found it to provide help to the tsunami victims. It came to my attention that the Red Cross was not openly promoting the issue. And so I decided to become the person in between the people and the Red Cross to try and get funding for the tsunami victims. I have founded Operation Hope and I have done this because my best friend Rajiv Kasat is in India right now and he had sent me an email the day after the tsunami on December 27th, stating that they need help. It is a horrendous sight over there and the pain is just undescribable. So I am asking for donations from whoever can help to be made to Operation Hope, which is through the Red Cross International Relief Fund and be mailed to Operation Hope at 2720 Muth Court in Sheboygan, Wisconsin with tsunami relief written in the memo of the check and the check written out to Red Cross International Relief Fund. Thank you. Thank you. Could I get your phone address, please? 414 Erie. As a member of the Sheboygan County Taxpayers Alliance, I would like to know when your fiscal irresponsibility would end. You don't have the money, but you want to spend $300,000 to tear down the incinerator plant when you had not too many years ago an opportunity to have it used profitably and for the good of the community. You don't have the money, but first you wanted to spend $2,000 for a taser gun and before one can catch their breath, you now want to spend over $21,000 for taser guns. This action should not be decided until you get a professional, unbiased medical opinion first, either in person or in writing. Let's satisfy the community completely. It appears that the police department and the people present are not aware of what will kill a human being in the form of electricity, so I will tell you. The human being has a resistance of 33,000 ohms. One tenth of an ampere will kill you. Six thousand volts will kill you because the pressure is too great. So there, I hope that helps a little bit in clearing up what about electricity will do to a human being. To continue, you don't have the money for adequate numbers of policemen in our community and before anyone perceives that I may be against a police force, my father-in-law is a retired police lieutenant or was a retired police lieutenant from the Sheboygan police force. Your increasing debt exceeds your budget and your spending, but you don't have one red cent or one plan to pay off on your principal debt of 66 million dollars. You owe more than what you have. Has anyone informed you that you are running unempty? Boy, do you have your fiscal irresponsibilities mixed up? I wonder how many homeowner citizen taxpayers are aware that two thirds of your water bills is in fees just collected by the water department for the city in lieu of taxes. In other words, if the average homeowner's annual water bill is three to $600, $200 to $400 is taxes on top of your property taxes, plain and simple. This totally unfair taxation process needs to be brought to a screeching halt, but you have time to reduce the last council meeting to tirades against anyone who disagrees with the present regime's fiscal irresponsibility, which leads one to ask those who are more interested in attacking the democratic process what you will be doing when you grow up. I'm really sick and tired of this unresponsive city government excessively taxing and feeing my family, my children's estate, and me. It is time to bring this stupid fiscal irresponsibility to an end in the next election. Before we get into consent agenda, I would like to read some of you this evening. Good evening, citizen Schwoigen. As mayor, I recognize that only as a team united in purpose can we address today's issues and tomorrow's challenges in our community. For that reason, I am proud to announce the formation of the Ergo Commission. Ergo stands for Efficient Regional Government Opportunities. The goal of Ergo Initiative is the stabilization of local tax rates while promoting a higher standard of living and economic development. The commission, through the further development of intergovernmental relations, will assist in the coordination of plans, policies, and programs to address and resolve issues of mutual interests. Examples of matters of Ergo Commission will undertake our shared services and intergovernmental contracts. The Ergo Commission initiative represents the community's core values and visions. The commission is founded on local leadership from business, labor, and government for the express purpose of promoting intergovernmental cooperation. I will have a list of members of the Ergo Commission ready for Common Council's approval in the near future. The commission will have monthly reports to the city of Schwoigen and to the community for their goals, progress, and acquired objectives. Thank you. With that Alderman Warner, consent agenda. Thank you, Your Honor. I move that all roles be accepted and placed on file. All RCs be accepted and adopted and all resolutions, substitute resolutions, and ordinances be passed. Second. We have a motion to second before us that all RCs be accepted and adopted. All RCs be accepted and adopted, resolutions be accepted and filed. Ordinance, general ordinance be put up on your passage. And that's 21 through 2017. Are there any questions? If not, would you call the roll? Bowman. Hi. Berg. Hi. Serta. Hi. Graf. Hi. Kittleson. Hi. Lauchs. Hi. Manny. Hi. Montemayor. Hi. Perez. Segali. I heard. No. Stephan. Hi. Van Akron. Hi. Ann Warner. Hi. Thirteen Ayes. Motion carried, 2018 through 2021 to be referred. 2022 through 2030 to be referred. If you look at 2025, it has public works. That will also go to public protection and safety, a document 2025. 2031 by Alderman Graf, Stephan, Serta, Manny, and Montemayor, authorizing transfer of appropriation in a 2005 budget. Alderman Graf. I would move that the resolution be put upon its passage. We have a motion to second before us, under discussion. Hearing none, would you call the roll, please? Berg. Hi. Serta. Hi. Graf. Hi. Kittleson. Lauchs. Manny. Hi. Montemayor. 2031. 2031. We're voting on it. The taser guns. Yes. No. OK. No. 2031 is not. 2032 is the taser. No, 2031 is not. 2031 is also the initial $2,000. 2031 is a transfer. Right, that's the transfer. Go ahead. OK. Perez. Segali. This is it. Stephan. Van Akron. Ann Warner. 12 ayes, 1 no. Motion carries. Oh, I'm sorry. Ann Bowman. 12 ayes, 1 no. Thank you. 2032 by Alderman Warner, Van DeWille. Segali, Rhinflesh, Inserter. Regarding the acquisition and the use of tasers by the Sheboygan Police Department. Alderman Warner. I thank you, Your Honor. I move the resolution to be put upon its passage. Right. We have a motion to second before us. Under discussion. Under discussion, Your Honor, for the viewing public, I'd like to read the resolution. It's relatively short. And I think it makes some points that need to be known. And there may be some alterations coming along also. This is a resolution regarding the acquisition and use of tasers by the Sheboygan Police Department. Whereas the personal safety of our citizens and police officers is a primary responsibility of the Common Council. And whereas access to tasers by the Sheboygan Police Department will increase the safety of our citizens and police officers. And whereas the availability of tasers as a non-lethal means of ensuring compliance with the law will enhance citizen and police officer safety. Be it resolved that the Common Council of the City of Sheboygan recognizes the importance of citizen and officer safety and the role that tasers will play in ensuring that safety. Be it further resolved that the Common Council of the City of Sheboygan supports the purchase of tasers by the Sheboygan Police Department to better protect its citizens, guests, and police officers, as well as all emergency service workers such as firefighters and other emergency personnel. Your Honor and fellow council members, this resolution was discussed at length at Public Protection Safety Committee's last meeting on Wednesday. And it is the belief of the committee that the purchase and use of tasers by the Police Department is in the best interest of the City of Sheboygan. Our meeting was full of information, questions, answers, and we believe strongly in the intent and focus that this resolution brings forward as a measure of support from the Common Council for acquisition of the tasers. We're not purchasing them with this. It's just saying we understand what tasers are, how they're used, and that we believe it would be in the best interest of the City of Sheboygan and the Police Department to have tasers to use. The safety of our city, its citizens and guests, the safety of our police officers and those individuals they may come in contact with while serving are primary concerns. We discovered that tasers are also important to other emergency personnel, such as firefighters and emergency medical technicians when faced with unruly or potentially dangerous individuals. I've read numerous studies over the last couple of weeks. I've got several of them here. Anyone's welcome to see them and read them if they like. There are instances where at a scene for an ambulance crew or first responders where a person is very hard to control and they need medical attention, where tasers have been used to get that person subdued to a point that they can be put under control by handcuffs or ties or something so that they can actually receive medical attention. There's examples of that across the board, across the country. They actually use them in prisons and other places too to get control of prisoners in certain instances without doing any harm to them. The presence of a police officer with a taser will help to ensure all emergency response personnel are better protected so they need to rise to maintain order and control when placed at risk. We believe, as I said, that this new tool for our police will benefit everyone and therefore we believe this resolution is an essential statement of support. Thank you. Thank you. Alderman Montemayor. Thank you, Mr. Mayor. If I'm just not convinced all of this will happen. I think it's a wonderful idea. I'm just not convinced all of it will happen. I've been studying a lot and I have all this information about tasers from the internet. And today, there's a class action complaint filed against taser. Georgia law firm Chitwood and Harley LLP said Friday, it filed a class action complaint charging Arizona-based taser international inquis securities fraud. Scottsdale Arizona-based taser manufacturers stun guns for use in law enforcement, private security and personal defense. The claimant was filed on behalf of investors who purchased taser securities between April 6, 2004 through January 10, 2005. The complaint charges that taser defendants issued materially false and misleading statements to the market concerning the safety of its taser guns between April 6, 2004 and January 10, 2005. The complaint also charges that in the fourth quarter taser inflated its accounts receivables and illegal practice called channel stuffing used to inflate stock value by sending retailers more merchandise than they could sell. Also, regulator wants more information regarding stun gun safety. Phoenix federal authorities have launched an inquiry into claims taser international Inc. has made about safety studies for its stun guns and so forth and so on. From the New York Times, July 2004, a lot of things, but the largest police departments have been slow to embrace the taser. The New York police department owns only a handful of tasers which are used by specialized units and supervisors, the spokesman said. So while I think it's a wonderful idea, I'm not convinced it works all that beautifully. So I'll be voting against it. Thank you. Okay. Alderman, Stephan? Yes, you know, I've always supported having an open forum before the meetings, but one of the downsides of that is people can get up and say anything they want and if you're watching on TV, you just have to assume it's true. I just wanted to point out one of the misrepresentations earlier this evening. The last document, we approved one taser at $2,000. And basically by this one, you know, we're telling the chief, you can go up, you know, and try to solicit more money and maybe in the future we'll have more money, but all we're spending is $2,000. And I think that's clear. The public's got to know we're not just coming up with $21,000, we don't have, yes, that's the goal to get that much, to get it donated, whatever the case may be, but I think it's just an example of, you know, somebody gets up and talks and we just assume it's true and in this case it's, I'll just say it's a mistake. I don't think anybody was intentionally lying or deceiving us. And I do have some concerns like Alderman Montemire, but I think this council knows firsthand that, you know, anybody can file a lawsuit. I have 100,000 tazings if there's three, four, five lawsuits. I mean, I'm shocked that there's not 50 or 100, I'm gonna tell you the truth. Thank you. Alderman Perez. Thank you, Mayor. Just wanted to make a few comments here. I do, I believe as most of you have, went on the internet and looked up as much information as possible. There's good and bad, there's pro and against, the taser guns, the use of it and so forth. I've always had mixed feelings about it. I'm concerned for the safety of the police officers, but I'm also concerned for the safety of the general public where in an instance, God forbid it would happen that somebody gets tased and they shouldn't have it been tased. I think it's important for this council to know or understand, and the community I should say to understand that whether we approve the use of taser guns by resolution or not, this council is free to revisit the issue should things get out of control or things not be well with the use of taser guns. This is not something that we're locking ourselves into. We've pretty much given or will give our blessing to the use of taser guns and that's it. We can always come back and revisit that. I think the main concern here, given our fiscal problem is for Chief Kirk to understand that if we're gonna go out and budget 20, 30,000 dollars for taser guns that somehow that'd be balanced with the use of personnel and other things that they did in the department. There's only so much money to go around and we need to be careful that we prioritize if taser guns are more important at police officers. And by all means that decision will be made by Chief Kirk and I think that decision should be respected. But we need to be careful that if we go out buying additional things that weren't budgeted for, it's only gonna take the money from somewhere where it's already at, put it somewhere where it's gonna go and there's a vacuum here. We need to be careful with that. Again, I have mixed feelings about this but I think the turning point for me was the research that I did and obviously witnessing a video of somebody getting zapped and getting up. And I think our officer said he got zapped and did. He's living. Pardon me? He's living. And he's living and he did a presentation. I don't wanna get it zapped. I thought maybe Chief Kirk would try it tonight but he didn't. I don't wanna get it zapped. So again, with mixed feelings so forth but out of respect for safety of police officers and with the understanding that we can always revisit this and that those adjustments will have to be considered in the police department, I will support it. Thank you. Oliver Groff. Thank you, Your Honor. Just to add to what Alderman Perez and Alderman Steffen said, this will be that we're supporting the purchase of tasers but we aren't authorizing any funds or anything like that. When funds become available, be they donations to purchase tasers for the police department and so forth that businesses may contribute because I believe the Chief mentioned something that someone had already offered to do a couple or something like that. So that still comes back to council. So council can still revisit it as Alderman Perez said at that particular time. I just wanna make sure that everybody clear on this that this doesn't mean or does not give the police department carte blanche to spend any funds until funds become available and then everything goes through council. Thank you. Thank you. Alderman Warner. I think just a few more things I wanted to touch base on. There's a lot of information on the internet and you also have to be careful where you get it from and you have to sift through it and really pay attention to make sure you're getting the right information. But there have been numerous studies on tasers across the country. You know, we're not, there's over 6,000 agencies across the country that are using tasers now. Prisons, police departments, medical departments, all kinds of places. And so there have been a lot, a lot of studies done out there. One of them is the HECL study that was done in 2004. That was by the Department of Defense. And in that study, some of the things they found out that was through the Air Force Research Laboratory and the Joint Nonlethal Weapons Program. And the HECL study concluded that taser technology is generally effective without significant risk of unintended results. In order for this taser to work, both darts have to hit the individual. So if an officer should miss the target, the other target would have to get both darts in order to have any impact. But the study also states that there are no cases of ventricular fibrillation that have been reported in the thousands of training or field exposure incidents with a taser. And that would answer one of the questions Marilyn had earlier. It also indicates as well that the increased use of tasers has decreased the overall injury rate of both police officers and suspects in conflict situations. Bottom line in this whole thing is that tasers offer a higher level of protection to everyone involved while providing a legitimate and important option to using a higher level of force such as pepper spray, night stick or the highest level of a gun. Once you get to that level, obviously the damage is much greater. I just think that we're taking a step forward in saying this that we support the safety of our police officers, but also the people that are maybe psychotic and most of these people have mental illness who have problems with these things and are on drugs at that time when that's when they're resisting the most and when you have this aspect in here, this will actually protect them better. It's a lot better than getting shot with a gun as I've said in the past. So I think we're going in the right direction. Thanks. Thank you. Aldermen Scully. Thank you, Your Honor. I think what's starting to bother me about this whole thing now is that we're questioning our own police officers. They're the ones that are putting their lives on the line for us. They're the ones that have to go out and deal with these criminals. Did we question them when they were given guns and bullets? Did we question them when they were given their pepper spray? Did we question them when they got their batons? Why are we now questioning how they are going to use the tasers? They are professional people. We trust them with our lives and we should not be questioning them. Thank you. Thank you. Aldermen Scully. Thank you, Your Honor. It's been said here tonight that just reiterating that we're only going to be purchasing a few and that in the future we'll address that issue again. I believe that if we're making this a priority now, we cannot see the true cost savings and make a fair estimate if we're only equipping our officers with just two taser guns. I think if we make this initiative, we have to seek and make it a priority and finding the finances available. Yes, they're going to pursue other avenues, securing maybe some donations through the private sector, but I think it's important that we do make this a priority. And I would like that. We would see those numbers reflected after we've implemented these tasers, but just to base that on just two taser guns, I don't think is going to be a fair estimate. Thank you. Thank you. Chief, one question for you has brought up about if you'd have to choose basically between an officer and a taser gun. I just want to make it clear is that we have all but one officer's position, I believe, filled in the city. I should point you now on a street, is it? Center two? There's two officers. Two now? Two vacancies. We would never, never let a position go down off the street in place of a taser gun. Well, you're absolutely right. I certainly understand the budget process. I understand that there's limits here or there. I think the issue of buying one taser or two tasers is not correct. I think if it's an issue that it's an officer's safety concern, if the money should be found either through this budgetary process or through other sources, as I said before, there has been one person who's come forth already. We do intend, as we talked about, a public protection and safety to look elsewhere. The issue is a normal officer's, they wear it as a normal piece of equipment. It's another tool. It's to replace either a baton and or the pepper spray, not both, either one of those two. Sibmic recommends that if you equip your people with tasers, you still have a baton or pepper spray because you have to remember where this force or this tool is used. It's used before baton and before pepper spray. If it's not on the road, if it's on a supervisor's belt, that's not the proper place for it. And you will not see the results that could be seen if it's on every officer's belt. So to have one, no, that's not correct. To have two, you put one on a captain, one on a lieutenant and then the see who gets the first, it's to be used on those sets of circumstances where it's deemed appropriate. And I will guarantee you that it's done after policy formation, after proper training. And you need, the $2,000 would probably not even buy the proper equipment to train all of our officers on. So that's where we are at the present time. Do I want a piece of equipment or an officer? I want an officer. Exactly. I mean, an officer does a whole heck of a lot more than just fights with people or that the taser deals with. So, no, we understand we are two vacants, two vacant positions. And we will work together to find a funding for the tasers. I believe that, thank you. Okay, with that, would you call the roll please? Serta, Graf, Kittleson, Lauchs, Manny, Montemayor, Perez, Segali, Steffen, Vanakren, Warner, Bauman, Anberg, 12 eyes, one no. Motion carried. 2033 through 36 to be referred. 2037 by law and licensing, recommending that beverage operators license 6650 be withdrawn from consideration as per the applicant's request. Alderman Manny. Thank you, Your Honor. Be half the committee. I move that we accept and adopt the report of the committee. Moved and seconded, we accept and adopt the report of committee. Under discussion. Hearing none, all in favor? Aye. Opposed? Motion here. 2038 by finance, recommending authorizing transfer of appropriation of the 2004 budget and passing the attached substitute resolution. Alderman Graf. Your Honor, I would move that the RC be accepted and adopted in that the substitute resolution be put upon its passage. We have a motion to second before us. Is there any discussion? Hearing none, would you call the roll please? Graf. Aye. Kittleson, Lauchs, Manny, Montemayor, Perez, Sagali, Steffen, Van Akron, Warner, Bauman, Berg, and Serda. 13 ayes. Motion carried. 2039 by finance, recommending authorizing a transfer of appropriations in the 2005 budget. Alderman Graf. Your Honor, I would move that RC be accepted and adopted and that the resolution be put upon its passage. We have a motion to second before us. Under discussion. Alderman Montemayor. Thank you, Mr. Mayor. I'd like to make a motion to hold the last transfer that from for the incinerator demolition until maybe the first meeting, council meeting in March because I understand there is a businessman in Sheboygan who wants to talk to the city about purchasing this incinerator from us with actual money. So I'm hoping that we can have the plan commission address that gentlemen and maybe by the first meeting in March we'll know where we stand on that. Is this gentleman coming before plan commission or something or one of the committees to request this? Well, I'm hoping we can refer this to the plan commission and then I'll talk with them. I'll talk with Paul Atter, Tom Houlton about the person's name. Where you're at? Yes. Should that be sent to redevelopment authority or rather than the planning commission? Redevelopment authority. Redevelopment? Redevelopment. You want to? No. Because? No. No, plan commission? Probably public works. Public works, I would say. Public works? Yes. Public works. Maybe they can make a sale. Public works. So Alderman Montemire, your motion is to hold and refer that one line item to public works. Is that what your motion is? Yes, please. Under discussion, Alderman Sugali. Thank you, Your Honor. Are we able to talk about keeping some of this as that are you aware of anything that's taking place now? No, I'm not. We've had a couple of people in the past look at it once they get inside the building and they walk away and don't want anything to do with it. It's shot. The sealant's coming down, bricks falling off, sofa coming off, most windows are busted out of it. It's a mess. And if it was on any private property, we'd be after them to fix it. It's a huge liability. We want the space. We need the space for public works. We want to convert the foundation that to salt storage area. So that salt is out of our building. It's ruining the steel in our building right now and the concrete wall's in the building from the salt being piled against it. We can only hold about 1,000 ton. We go through maybe 3 or 4,000 ton a year and we're at the whim of the truckers to get the salt in here if we run out. Last week our salt was out of salt. As we were using that, there were trucks bringing in 400 ton for us and that's not a good situation either. But I think it should stay in the public works area. I think that building should come down. So we do have a use for it. Even if the building comes down, we have a use. Yes, we do. And I can't believe there's anybody that has the money to get that thing back in shape where the floor is just coming off. It's a concrete floor and ceiling and the concrete's just spalling off. And it's building a shot. Alderman Warner? I think, and I know we've been talking about the armory. I mean, the armory. Well, the armory too, I guess. The incinerator needs to be taken care of over the last several years and there were a lot of safety concerns involved in that building. I guess I don't have a problem for holding it for two weeks, but not till March. There's no sense in holding it till March. But if you can have a go to public works and let them have them talk to this supposed individual and then bring it back to council as a line on them. I mean, I know that this is something that they've been looking at for a long time. We've had it out there. No one has come forward with any cash or money for it. It's been public knowledge several times. It was available if somebody wanted it. So if they'd taken the public works, look at it, bring it back in two weeks. But I think the motion was to hold it till March. And I thought it was it. I clarified that with Alderman Montemire. I've got it to hold the incinerator line item and refer that item to public works. Hang on in one minute. Okay, Alderman Groff. I was just gonna say, Alderman Montemire, I believe you got the information from Alderman Vander Wheelay that- Yes, because the gentleman spoke with him on the telephone. Okay, and that's all the information we have right now about the proposed person that wanted to buy it. Alderman Vander Wheel shared that information with me too. Oh, okay. And that's possible that it could be a swap or a sale or okay, but no one has come forward yet. So it's a good two weeks isn't going to do anything. We won't take it down in two weeks. No, that's fine. Okay, Alderman Baldwin. Thank you, Your Honor. I would have to ask for an amended agenda through public work because it already has been printed. So, needless to say, is that okay, Tom? Yes, we can do that tomorrow. Okay. Okay, we're holding for, well, let's vote on that separately. Do we need a roll call on just that one? Yeah, on the amendment, we're voting to hold the incinerator line item and refer that one item to public works. Correct. So we're voting on the amendment only. Roll. You can do all of them. Okay, all in favor? All in favor. Opposed? No. Motion carried. All right. Is there any? Alderman Gough. Then, Your Honor, as amended, I would move that the resolution be put upon its passage. We have a motion before us in a second. Is there any other discussion? Hearing none, would you call the roll? Lux. Manny. Montemayor. Perez. Segali. Steffen. Van Akron. Warner. Bauman. Berg. Serda. Graf. And Kittleson. 11 to 2. Motion carried. 2040 will lie over. 2041 could be referred. 2042 goes to public works. Alderman Press. Thank you, Mayor. I just had a question with respect to 2042. I received a call from this individual also. And my understanding is that this has been an ongoing thing. So I intend to be president at the public works meeting. And I would ask that if possible, maybe a historical account could be given to us then about what has happened, what has not happened. Apparently, I understand it's been going on for a while. So if Alderman Bauman is chairman, perhaps would assist me in that. Thank you. Quite a while, I believe, and there's some, well, Tom, if you want to explain a little bit. Thank you, David, for public works. It has been going on for several years. I'm guessing it's probably going on for seven, eight, nine years, something like that. And it boils down to be, I believe, it's a private issue between the owner and the Tamra complex. We've thought we've had issue resolved. We've stepped in twice as recently as this fall and thought it was taken care of. Doesn't happen. But let's discuss it one more time and listen to the concerns and let's go through it, just to make sure. Sure. Alderman Graf. Thank you, I was just wondering, wasn't a lot of this with the same apartment complex being handled by housing authority? Housing authority, yes. And is that where the public works is going to be sending this to or do they contact housing authority or I'm just wondering, because I think I know they've been handling that issue for quite a while. And if nothing else, they should be involved in this when public works meets on its own. Every time it's been sent to the housing authority, it died due to lack of action. So needless to say, it never did get acted on. All right. Well, so we can do with it Alderman Baldwin. Thank you. 2043 by risk management, filing a document submitting a notice of a claim of American family insurance on behalf of Richard Woolrich, regarding alleged damages to his vehicle when a city truck leaf vacuum hose broke loose and hit his vehicle and paying the claim in amount of $2,464.93. Risk management, Alderman Graf. Your Honor, I would move that the RC be accepted and adopted. Second. We have a motion and a second before us under discussion. Hearing none, would you call the roll? Manny. Montemayor. Aye. Perez. Aye. Segali. Aye. Stefan. Aye. Van Akron. Aye. Warner. Aye. Bauman. Aye. Berg. Aye. Serta. Aye. Graf. Aye. Kittleson. Aye. And Laws. Aye. 2044 is communication from Gina Steinhardt regarding her concerns with possible drug activity in our area and concerns with garbage that is being dumped by tenants of apartments in her neighborhood. Public Protection and Safety. 2045 is communication from Randy Ingalls, chairman of the 2005 ice bowling event and fundraiser requesting permission to close Wildwood Avenue to the Blue Line Ice Center and Juleson Court for the weekend of ice bowling March 18th and 19th. Public Protection and Safety. 2046 is a communication from Paul Weaver, president of PCW Cycling, requesting permission for the PCW bicycling team to again host a cycling racing event on June 4th in the Shboy and Business Center Industrial Park. Public Protection and Safety. 2047 is communication from Bishop E. Galileo Jose stating his concerns with the purchase of tasers for the police department. They'll go to Public Protection and Safety also, but hang on a minute, Steve Alderman Warner. I think there aren't just one thing. I know on 2046 from Paul Weaver, I think that was typically a dual referral because public works has to work with public works also to get in those streets closed off. Okay. Thank you. 2048 is a resolution authorizing the appropriate city officials to accept the community grant from the Aurora Health Foundation for the donation of trail exercise stations to be placed along the Lakefront Recreation Trail to promote citizen wellness and healthy lifestyles. And now we'll go to Public Works. We have motion to second before us. All in favor?