 Hey everybody today. We're debating whether or not chronic interpersonal values are good and we are starting right now With finding truth and Mohammed's opening statement. Thanks so much for being with us finding truth. The floor is all yours Okay, thanks James. So my name is Ahmed and I'm running finding truth and this topic is a pretty exciting one Because Islam and the Quran has elevated Arabs and then the whole humanity For in a very dark time into The pinnacle of human behavior. I My my statement which should take a few minutes will go through three aspects Number one. What does the Quran say about interpersonal values and number two? What was the effect? What was the fruit of those interpersonal values on the history of Islam and today? so first the Quran is very and Sometimes it's very it's very very brief and very condensed. So I will start with Surat An-Nahl the bees I am number 90 where it makes a brief statement about interpersonal values in the Quran. It says this So this is Arabic and what it means is The Allah commands or ordains or decrees justice Ihsan which is goodness or benevolence or doing the best deeds in the best way or perfection or continuous observance of Allah. So this is the second one Ita either Khurba is generosity to those who are your relatives or your kin or those who are close to you So three things that the Quran commands Muslims justice, Ihsan and being good to your relatives or those close to you And then he forbids three things When on the fahshai and fahshai is obscene or shameful or indecent acts Munkar is this approved deeds by Allah or by the believers and Baqih which is oppression So this this one ayah and then it says Allah is making this sermon to you Lest you remember So very brief three things that Muslims should observe in the positive sense and three things in the negative or the forbidden sense justice number one Ihsan being good or doing things in the best way possible generosity to kin and three that are forbidden now this behavior has been further and further developed in details in the Quran but for the brevity of the opening statement Maybe we will address this later in the debate But what was the impact of this on the ground? So the impact of this on the ground is that Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him was a Quran walking the face of the earth many people Before Islam had any kind of power or state actually joined Islam because Prophet Muhammad was a refined person in his attitude Later when Islam became Had a nation that is defending it and spread over the world the world actually A huge part of what is known today as the Islamic world went into Islam not because The Islamic nation had access to those places, but because normal Muslims traders travelers sometimes People who who who had different interactions with those peoples And and the people who interacted with Muslims found that those Muslims have a very unique way of behavior We are talking about sub-Saharan Africa. For example, we are talking about East Asia because Muslims did not go beyond China I mean as a nation So you're looking at races like Malaysia, Indonesia, Philippines, etc Hundreds of millions of Muslims today in Asia and in Africa Had no contact with the official caliphate in terms of a nation, but they became part of global Islamic land because they interacted with Muslims and until this modern day Where Islam is in as As a country or as a state is at its weakest point in its history still huge conversion waves happen in places that are typically non-muslim places Where people convert to Islam because they run into somebody who is a true Muslim He had who he leads who leads his life In terms of his behavior as a Muslim and they Ask why this is the case and they find that the reason is That he is a Muslim they investigate further in ism and they become Muslims between that Even the nations that Muslims have Conquered and they became part they become part of the Islamic world after for example military action with the Romans or with the Persians Muslims as Individual Muslims now on the ground Due to their dealing with people of those countries those countries in terms of their people converted to Islam many Or a majority of them Were very resilient versus the religions of their previous occupiers But they moved into Islam not only because Islam offers them A religion or a way of life, but because they saw how the First Muslims who arrived there were behaving as individuals with them once I had a conversation with A christian priest and He had an opinion that prophet Muhammad is a prophet and Islam is a true religion from God and ask him Why would you make this assertion? and he said because in our religion we judge by the fruits And since Islam had these fruits the first generations who were really following Islam Were exemplary of a religion that really defines human behavior And this was very touching to me, but it is actually also very true. So in summary The Quran commands In detail and overall a very refined human interpersonal Discipline and behavior And on the ground this has led hundreds of millions of people or billions of people over history to join Islam and those who live with Muslims Even converted to Islam for this reason among others You got it. We'll kick it right over to Muhammad your teammate. Thanks for being with us Muhammad Thank you very much Bismillah ar-Rahman ar-Rahim Salamu alaikum so that there isn't a person present that hasn't heard this reading before Peace be upon you It's a heartfelt greeting that summarizes the relationship that should be between everyone and everything A commandment from God to offer peace and to accept peace and remember that God the exalted the great is peace Salamu alaikum expresses the true nature of what the Quran teaches us on how to treat each other When interacting with fellow humans and my brother Ahmed has touched on these subjects But in summation honesty sincerity charity sacrifice justice forgiveness trust and inclusivity is the core principles that any believer should possess Humans love seeing those traits in others And the reason why we love these values is because God likes these values and God has placed a soul from him within us So in the true light of submitting to our creator We follow the path that is naturally bestowed upon all of us which Muslims call as a fukhra or the natural inclination When treating each other God through the Quran has taught us to be honest in our matters and manners And to speak the truth even if it's against ourselves all the problems between people today is the fact that someone is lying or being In January Usually when that occurs Problems start to arise between non-believers because of the simple fact that forgiveness is something that sounds like a good theory to a lot of People but when it comes to practicality not a lot of people practice it However, when you go through the Muslim community Even you David If you accept that God has brought down on what God has brought down on our beloved prophet Muhammad Sallallahu alayhi wa sallam is the truth And which is already confirming to what you have and you become a Muslim We would overlook all the history of hate and intolerance that you and we would treat you like a brother And you know that very well There isn't any other community that holds this brotherhood and acceptance and tolerance that Islam has Because of what the Quran is teaching us Whether traveling in business or even in jail The brotherhood and sisterhood in Islam prevails to to our loyalty towards God We show this loyalty through our behavior towards each other and to the disbelievers Nobody likes a bad-spoken backbiting lying spying slandering jealous cheating devils Nobody wants to work or deal with such filth because it just brings pain shame and chaos All of these said characteristics God has ordered us to never get close to or or or even partaken through the Quran Everyone loves someone who goes above and beyond if they promised you a b and c They'll do what they said and they'll also do x y and z only to make you to make sure you feel welcomed And for you to feel satisfied To them hell and upsetting God is not worth cheating you out of a dollar or even a million dollars People love those who can hide the shame of others hold on to secrets and try to reconcile when people are fighting These are the the core principles of Quran people love reliable upfront and honest individuals and that's what the believer is Having a good friend to lie on when you're in trouble or you have issues what everyone likes to have right? So sufficient as God is such a friend and Muslims are all God's allies and servants Any atheist christian hindu jew or whatever Who has the trouble or requires some assistance if you go to your closest mosque and ask for assistance You will find someone to help you with a smile and who will also have the backbone to tell you the truth And we'll tell you exactly what they see it without having to sugarcoat anything but in a proper and polite manner That's the essence of the believer and that's the essence of the Quran When it comes to people trying to lie and to deceive us Despite that we have the God given right to retaliate to any harm that has oppressively been forced on us Most of us forego that right and we tend towards mercy and forgiveness because that's a default position of a believer We believe in God's promise and our Lord is merciful and so we so are we right? We rely that God will be addressing these issues and and he will be addressing everything that we have endured We went to show mercy and we went to be treated with mercy and this is how we live our life throughout people What religion promotes? What other religion promotes visiting the sick forces you to answer greetings in a similar or a better fashion To measure your faith by how much empathy you show to other others If you notice yourself not showing enough empathy you start to double check yourself and fix yourself In the real in the reason and find the reasons why you're getting a hard heart Now here's the miracle We do all that not first so and so to say that like look at Muhammad He's such an upstanding individual we do it so that our Lord is pleased with us and accepting over who we are that's our That's that's who our best friend is and he's more important to us than our parents And as a result the world and whoever's in it Who has a heart and can recognize the light that's in our heart? Except and relies on us and we live as honorable and fulfilling life So we get the most fulfilling life just by following these values that nobody in the world can Really debate or say that these values are not proper and And that light is And it's all due to the fact that we follow the light that was brought down to prophet Muhammad And we followed the ideology and philosophy and conduct of our prophet abraham peace be upon them both And all of which was revealed by god who created all of this This is his system So he knows what's the best approach to how to deal with each other And in what you do to have the best feelings and the best most honorable life Working with and interacting with everyday believers and muslims. You will always feel like you're in good hands And uh, i'd like to pass it over to the other side Thank you very much for that opening statement from finding truth and Muhammad Want to let you know a couple of quick housekeeping things before we give it over to the no side for their opening statement as well Folks want to let you know no matter what walk of life you are from We are glad to have you here whether you be muslim atheist christian you name it We are glad that you're with us In fact, if you haven't yet consider hitting that subscribe button as we have many more juicy debates coming up For example, as you can see at the bottom right of your screen. This is going to be a big one. We're excited In fact, naraya who's a part of this debate right now She'll be facing daniel hakikachu on whether or not mandatory veiling for women in muslim countries is morally good That will be a juicy debate. You don't want to miss it So do hit that subscribe button right now and with that we're going to kick it over to david and naraya Thanks so much for being with us the floor is all yours for your opening Thank you, james. You hear me. Yes All right. Well, thank you and thank you Ahmed and Muhammad for giving us the muslim perspective on this topic and a special thanks to naraya for openly challenging an ideology that not only calls for your public execution for apostasy, but Also one that says you're too stupid to do so effectively Since muhammad said that not this muhammad the Seven century muhammad said that women are intellectually deficient as far as i'm concerned if naraya makes a compelling case in this debate It'll be a double refutation of islam So our chronic values on interpersonal conduct Good i'm happy to admit that we can find examples of good values in the Quran Allah's eternal Speech in the Quran seems to be very closely tied to muhammad's mood and desires And sometimes muhammad was in a good mood and had good desires That's when we get some good revelations from Allah But other times muhammad was in a bad mood and had bad desires And that's when Allah's eternal speech suddenly got really really bad The problem with pointing to some of the nice teachings in the Quran about charity or something like that is That the Quran's Clear calls for the violent subjugation of the world and for the persecution of non muslims Are so horrifyingly bad. They completely overshadow anything positive we can say In surah three verse one ten of the Quran Allah says to muslims You are the best of peoples ever raised up for mankind Muslims are the best people in the world according to Allah What about jews and christians? Surah 98 verse six reads in the helelekan translation Verily those who disbelieve in the religion of islam the Quran and prophet muhammad from among the people of the scripture Jews and christians and al mushrikun those who associate partners with Allah Will abide in the fire of hell. They are the worst of creatures Non muslims are the worst of creatures muslims are the best of peoples According to the Quran then muslims and non muslims are not equal muslims are the best non muslims are the worst Kind of hard to establish good interpersonal conduct when your god tells you that certain people are worse Then pigs or dogs and as we'll soon see that they should be treated as such Not surprisingly given the utter inferiority of jews and christians The Quran condemns friendship with us as we read in surah five verse 51 O you who believe do not take the jews and the christians for friends. They are friends of each other We know that muhammad took this command seriously because he said in sahi muslim I will expel the jews and christians from the arabian peninsula and will not leave any but muslims If muhammad himself couldn't imagine living side by side with jews and christians I don't know how we can say that the Quran promotes good interpersonal conduct towards jews and christians Let alone towards atheists hindus and so on But it's one thing to say Our group is superior to everyone else or Don't be friends with other groups. It's something else to promote persecution and violence toward other groups And that's exactly what the Quran does In surah 48 verse 29 allah declares muhammad is the messenger of allah and those who are with him Are severe against disbelievers and merciful among themselves Not according to me not according to neria according to muham according to allah himself Muslims are supposed to be severe against disbelievers and merciful only toward fellow muslims In surah 9 verse 29 allah orders muslims to fight christians and jews until we acknowledge our inferiority And pay tribute to the muslim community allah says Fight those who believe not in allah nor the last day Nor hold that forbidden which have been forbidden by allah and his messenger Nor acknowledge the religion of truth from among the people of the book Jews and christians until they pay the jizya with willing submission and feel themselves subdued I've seen plenty of muslims try to reinterpret this command usually by the context defense But there's nothing in the literary or historical context that makes this verse any more peaceful In fact, I would argue that a careful examination of the literary and historical contexts Makes it worse turns out to be a money making scheme fight people until they convert in which case they pay zakat Or until they acknowledge their inferiority and pay jizya either way. They're going to pay you. This is the seventh century arabian mafia Of course compared to atheists or hindus christians and jews are the fortunate ones We at least have the option of paying the jizya other groups have to convert or die But it's not just christians jews atheists hindus and so on who are targeted for violence in the caran Even muslims are in danger from allah's commands In surah 9 verse 73 allah says oh prophet Strive hard against the unbelievers and the hypocrites and be unyielding to them Notice allah calls for jihad Not only against unbelievers non muslims but also against hypocrites people who claim to be muslims But aren't fully submitting to the commands of allah and muhammad And it gets even more dangerous for muslims because according to surah 4 verse 65 Anyone who doesn't mindlessly accept everything muhammad says is not a real muslim Allah says but no by your lord. They can have no faith until they make you oh muhammad Judge in all disputes between them and find in themselves No resistance against your decisions and accept them with full submission A muslim can have no real faith. He's not a real muslim until he finds in himself No resistance against any of muhammad's decisions This means that muslims who reinterpret the teachings of allah and muhammad or who question or doubt the teachings of allah and muhammad Are either hypocrites or apostates Either way allah demands violence against them Just ask she is or ahmadis or any other muslim group that finds themselves outnumbered by a larger muslim group So these are the commands of allah about interpersonal Conducts muslim apologists typically reinterpret these verses They tell us what allah really meant when he said things like fight those who do not believe Unfortunately, allah claims repeatedly in the Quran that his commands are perfectly clear If allah really meant what modern muslims say if he really meant something different from what he commanded from all eternity In his eternal speech then the Quran is not clear and allah is lying Now just so no one misunderstands me. I'm only talking about what the Quran teaches I'm not talking about what individual muslims believe or how individual muslims behave This debate isn't about what our muslim friends here believe. It's about what the Quran promotes is Endless violence against non muslims and even against muslims who have some wrong ideas What we can what we would consider good interpersonal conduct Not me But I barely scratched the surface of what the Quran has to say about interpersonal conduct Nurya, is there anything you'd like to add? Nope, that's good for now. Thank you, David Thank you very much for that opening statement We're going to go into open dialogue But before we do do want to mention another housekeeping type thing in particular folks. We're very excited about this TikTok allows live streaming once we get to a thousand followers We'll be able to live stream debates just like this one on tiktok The reason that's important is because that'll increase modern day debates exposure and get these ideas and these debates Out to a broader audience across the web as tiktok is growing Ferocious, it's just it's off the chart. So I've got to tell you my dear friends if you have a tiktok account I'm going to pin it at the top of the chat our tiktok link We would be very grateful if you'll follow us there as like I said hitting a thousand followers will enable us To unlock the feature of live streaming there so we can increase the expansiveness of this neutral platform across the web That link for the tiktok is also on the top of the description box and with that we're going to jump into open dialogue James, sorry, I would actually like to piggy off of what david would said. I'd like to give him a thank you Go for it. Yeah All right. Cool. Thank you to both the gentlemen obviously arguing the affirmative here today For david for partnering with me and obviously modern day debates for hosting Hopefully this debate will give david and myself a prime opportunity to expose the quran For the poor arguably vile and reprehensible set of interpersonal conduct it sets out and why it's exceptionally outdated in the 21st century Since we're talking about the quran. Let's dedicate a moment to the alleged author Allah Allah in no uncertain terms calls himself the best of deceivers not once not twice But at least five times in the quran Now when most of us think about equitable reasonable just and empathetic values for society at large Would you associate the art of deception with that? No, well, it's interesting that the supposed creator of the world says in quran 1342 To Allah is all ownership and he's the master of deception The master of deception That's an attribute of the creator of the supposed religion of peace Not low level deceiving but Allah is a maverick a master of it If that wasn't bad enough according to multiple quran verses such as four one four three six three nine seven one seven eight There's no guidance for the one who Allah deceives So for an ex-muslim apostate like myself if Allah the master of deception has chosen to deceive me There's no chance. I can make good in his eyes through no fault of my own I'd like to ask those listening if Allah seems like a trustworthy entity to guide Let alone command us to follow divinely ordained interpersonal values with the threat of punishment always looming as david mentioned Muslims can't take non-muslims as friends They must convert pay protection money in the form of jizya be subdued and humbled or killed Is this good interpersonal let alone good interfaith conduct? quran 867 also talks about beheading non-muslim captives Now as a woman and a feminist let's talk about what it says about the fairer sex Muslim men can rape their wives and force them to bed anytime anywhere and under any circumstances Surah two two three says your women are your fields. You may enter your field whichever way you like Two things here. This completely eradicates the concept of consent and allows marital rape to go unpunished and unnoticed As of 2019 nearly 150 countries around the world Outlawed marital rape in some form or the other yet the quran which is meant to be timeless guidance can't seem to get it quite right Women are merely sex objects not human beings A Muslim husband can punish you and use your sexual organs at his discretion purely to satiate his carnal appetite Notice the terminology used in the quran enter your field. I can't begin to imagine how vulgar and disrespectful the analogy is Women also get the short end of the stick when it comes to inheriting quran 411 states A man gets double the share of inheritance over a female a woman's testimony also counts for just half of a man's Surah two two eight two says let two men from among you hear witness to all such documents But if two men not be available there should be one man and two women to hear witness So if one forgets anything the other may remind her This archaic law wouldn't be supported by any non-islamic court in the world And further proves this political ideology masquerading as a religion was made by men for men We've seen examples of women being silenced and abused and we heard from david how it oppresses non-believers to varying degrees But this next one is arguably one of the most depraved alongside divorcing prepubescent girls Islamically only the man has the right to divorce if he pronounces it three times it becomes absolute According to surah two two thirty in this case Not only is the divorce irrevocable, but the spouse can't remarry until the wife has married another man Consumated the marriage with him and then that marriage is ended Some scholars tried to explain this gross injustice away by framing it as a punishment for men Claiming men would be so wary so as not to pronounce the divorce because they know how severe the consequences are My question is why is the woman being punished for something she had no control or agency over in the first place Why is Allah playing with the emotions of a genuinely repentant couple? Why does the burden fall on a woman's shoulders in most progressive nations? We have much better remedies yet the Quran relies on forced sexual activity with a third party Quran 65 for means babies and little girls are not safe either It sets no upper or lower age limit on who you can marry A newborn baby can technically be married off and fall under the category of those who have not yet menstruated Besides the truly sickening nature of it most reasonable people would say this is something of a backward Primitive senseless predatory nature and in no way a good interpersonal valid value system for marriage According to surah four three a man can have four wives It also says if you fear you might not do justice to them marry only one or marry those who have fallen in your possession It de facto promotes sex slavery The clause marry those who have fallen in your possession means slave girls captured after a war who become sexual property Allah facilitates non-muslim women being exchanged for sex and money Muhammad married Safiya a 17 year old jewish girl He acquired from the plunder of khaira hours after he had her husband qinana tortured to death To add insult to injury her name was given to her by Muhammad in honor of being his specific portion of the war booty The limit on four wives also seems redundant because men can sleep with unlimited slave girls Men can marry multiple even christian or jewish women of the book But muslim women can't and must only marry a muslim man Even in heaven men get 72 virgins yet a woman's needs are ignored in every sense of the word Not only does it slam a proof of slavery. It makes the important part of the economy We see that in Quran 30 28 Do you take your slaves as partners in what we have given you for sustenance power? Respect and wealth however you fear them not to share with with you your wealth as you fear each other Allah basically forbids muslims who received wealth and power from him from sharing it Allah makes it clear that he is the god to muslims and muslims are basically gods to their slaves Allah doesn't want partners to share his power similarly muslims should not share their wealth with slaves Husbands may hit their wives if they merely fear high-handedness Note fearing something is different from it actually occurring Notwithstanding the fact that the concept of nushas is extremely sexist Quran 4 34 says if you fear high-handedness from your wives Remind them then leave them apart in bed and beat them It's safe. It's safe to say sorry dogs in the west have more rights than muslim women A man who beat a dog in america got 25 years jail time But in islamic countries men get off scot-free on egyptian tv They glorify wife beating while on saudi tv a man demonstrates how to do it If you happen to beat a woman in a country with sharia, you're a hero teaching his wife how to behave The Quranic manifesto is one of the greatest threats to women women in iran and afghanistan are facing the brunt of this harsh reality As we speak the only people safe under this value system are straight muslim men That's for you jimmy and nobody else not myself not david not anyone. Thank you Thank you very much. We are going to jump into the open dialogue Want to remind you in addition to that tiktok link which is in the description box our guest links are there My dear friends if you're watching live I encourage you open up an additional tab or tabs and you can put our guest links in there right now So you for sure remember to check out their channels That's also in the description box for the podcast where we have davids Have i've been saying it wrong naraya Nurya, but that's okay. I'm sorry. That's embarrassing. Nurya and muhammad's David and Finding truth links are all in the description box at the podcast as well Check out our guest links and with that. Thank you very much all four of you. The floor is all yours david Um, james i'm a bit confused. Aren't we weren't we going to have? Oh, you're right rebuttals. Thank you. Sorry about that I'm waiting for the rebuttals. Yeah, i'm in my old mindset. It's 10 minute rebuttals Getting getting names wrong names wrong format wrong. My goodness. I'm not a morning person To fighting truth and muhammad for 10 minutes. So roughly five minutes each the floor is all yours for that first rebuttal Thank you. So, um Well, let's start counting now. So actually I I'm I'm a little bit surprised of of the opening statements of both nurya and david and the reason is That we are discussing specifically Whether interpersonal values in the quran are good so, um David talked about so many things nurya talked about so many things That are off this topic things that are related to legal the legal system of islam Uh, international relations in islam politics in islam war and peace in islam, etc But the topic of this debate is actually interpersonal values specifically and Hence I would I would like to stay on on the topic So first of all, I would like to thank david actually for acknowledging that before an has some good values being mentioned there But he said that sometimes that changes i'm talking about again interpersonal values And I I asked him would that change maybe in his rebuttal who would answer me over that But since there wasn't so much material about that In his and nurya's Statements, I will try to pick the things that are relevant So one of the things um that are relevant Is what david mentioned about? The muslims being the best of people And he quoted a piece of a quranic verse so In all in all honesty quoting a piece of a verse is not the way to convey its meaning So the verse says I happen to have memorized the quranic one part of my life. I need to do some revisions but the the piece says You have been the best of nations or the best of communities that has been brought forward to the world or to the people But it doesn't stop there because it qualifies the reason Because it says right after that Ta'amuruna bin ma'roofi wa tanhawna anil munkari wa tukminuna bil la So why why are you the best of people? Because you do three things ta'amuruna bil ma'roof You guide people to doing good deeds wa tanhawna anil munkar And you tell people not to do bad deeds wa tukminuna bil la and you believe in God and you can notice that it has started with the interpersonal thing first That a muslim who is a part of a nation that is the best nation Has to be the best muslim he has to be doing good deeds and he has to Then ask people to follow his lead and to refrain from doing bad deeds and then to ask people To follow his deeds now did the quran the reason i'm commenting on this specific piece from what david said Is that if i am as a muslim looking down to other people just because i'm a muslim and they are not muslims It will affect my interpersonal behavior towards them obviously Um, but but this is not the case But did the quran only mention uh muslims as being the best? No, actually the quran before mentioning muslims as being the best of nations He mentions israelites People who followed moses As at one point of time being the best being the chosen ones actually this is mentioned in the quran clearly and and and in surat al-baqarah he talks to People of the book for a long part of surat al-baqarah and in other places in the quran Um, and and he specifically says i have chosen you And the reason Allah makes them the chosen people Is that because they carried the same message before the arrival of muslims And then he starts blaming them For letting go of the way of conduct that Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala has ordered them to follow in their books Whether for example, it is like observing the Sabbath when it relates to the religion practice and other practices But very importantly interpersonal practices And then he says now muslims you are going to carry this torch to light up the world once again If you behave the way I want you to behave because you are carrying the torch You become the best of the communities that are uh walking the earth, but if not There is no Uh, uh, Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala does not take sides So later on in the quran, he says like this. He says very clearly this It is not by what you wish or the people of the book wish But he who does bad deeds will be punished or will be held accountable So Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala does not treat muslims in a different way than non muslims He treats people based on abidance to his values. And this is my five minutes. I leave the rest of the five minutes to my friend Muhammad Thank you, brother. Uh, so yeah, just to carry on a little bit about the verse on When he's saying So Why don't you just carry on the verse even more than that? So god is telling us why we're the best nations But then he starts addressing the people of the book. You're saying that they're not part of it God says well if the people of the book believe it would have been better for them, right? And then they're if they fight you they're gonna be cowards and run away because they have they don't show loyalty And then later in the exact same like page god says, but they're not all the same From the people of the books those who believe in god who like go quick to like do good things for others those who believe in the day and Who like seeing that maroon of the maroon for you and who now I'm one curse So they promote good deeds and they try to stop evil deeds and they bow down in the middle of the night Praying to god and reciting the verses that's in their books. Those people are righteous God literally says that in the exact same page So like in summary all that you guys debated and everything that you brought off is such a twisted and emotional Rhetoric that just shows like copy pastes of the Qur'an It's like taking the whole literature and just taking little pieces and making this This ideology or this like philosophy that have absolutely nothing to a with the Qur'an and be with this topic So like everything that luria said is such a twisted thing that most of the people and most of the verses that you said Don't say anything that you said. So when you're saying 1342 it has nothing to do about someone being a deceiver Mecca is a plant god doesn't talk about him being Like owning the land and the skies in that specific verse Show me the rape verse because i'm sorry. I have a lot of sisters and I have a lot of dads and uncles They're not going around raping people but it's it's okay. You could you know Delude yourself as ever you want and the devil can't decorate your mind and whatever you want Inheritance in the same thing when it comes to you're saying like oh a man has double the share of a woman But in reality if you look at the same verse The mom if the guy doesn't have a kid the mom is inheriting double the dad. That's not fair So aren't you talking about how the gender that the women is taking uh, the mother is taking double the dad when He doesn't have a child. That's an exact same verse. Go look it up. And then the second thing is Your whole life as a man you're providing for the women. I'm giving her Most of the stuff that I have I'm not allowed to take it back. I can't inherit uh offer I just keep giving everything that I have to her. I have other obligations That's why she's taking a smaller cut like me as a man. I'm supposed to be the the provider So that's why and I've been giving to my wife most of my life everything that I have is just so that she is provided for So when I'm dead I have like my kids and other obligations that I have to like give to But like again, you you just take things in in out of context and you throw it the 72 versions is based on a hadith That's like so they're it's not even like that the prophet said that it's just maybe he said that But it's there is no enough proof or testimony and you're talking about the word neshes Like you just throw these terms to show people that you know But in reality, you know jack because that same word was used for women like oh if you Found neshes in your women, right? Like you're supposed to do x and x and x and then later in the same sort of god is saying like hey women if you Sense neshes from your men your husbands that they're going to leave you or they're going to forsake you Then try to reconcile because reconciling is good and those who reconcile are those who have Awareness of god and wants to make the world peace. We don't say peace be upon you and it's all about violence And when it comes to violence, david again, it's the same problem. You take copy paste We don't say the truth We cannot like god says like those that come to you disbelievers Mushrocks and whatever those that come to you and they don't like they give you peace Where y'all go? Alaykum salam or your kifu idiom and they don't throw their hands at you and fighting those we did not give you Away on top of them. So we ma'atina alaykum sabbiyah. So we can't fight you Okay, but those that want to fight us then yeah, we're not doormats like how modern day christianity is It's all about hey, hey, you know what? You just step all off all over us and we're okay with it. No, there's certain times You're gonna have to stand up at those guests fighting you you're talking about the 21st century Because of all this disaster your governments and these people around that are so far away from Like the values that are in the books, which is whether it's the gospel or the Torah or the korean And they're making up all these crazy theories the thing that people are finding the stability in that makes more sense To reality is the korean so a lot of people are going into into the korean and and i personally felt it Ahmed also personally felt it when we deal with people that don't know the korean and they see how we're just acting Like we're honest with with the people like disbelievers or we treat people nicely Or we go above them beyond beyond to make it to make people feel hospitable or or yeah With our hospitableity people want to become muslim they start being intrigued by Islam Time and yes, like I wish you guys uh came Like that have this like approach when it comes to the korean is to be more honest We're gonna kick it over to david and norea for their First rebuttal. Thank you very much. The floor is all yours for 10 minutes Well, uh, thanks again, uh, Ahmed and Muhammad in my opening statement I agreed that there are some positive values in the Quran But that these are massively overshadowed by the Quran's commands to violently subjugate unbelievers Um, Ahmed said we were going off topic. I I don't recall where I mean interpersonal is between persons and everything Nuria and I talked about was between persons either between Muslims and non-muslims or between muslims and muslims of another group or between men and women As far as the best of peoples Ahmed and uh, Muhammad tried to you know say well, this is this is just about You know the things muslims were doing and well even jews even jews at one time were the best of peoples But these things start to change the attitude towards jews and christians massively changes when When they reject Muhammad Jews and christians are doing the same things. What are they doing? Are they are they running around behaving horribly evil and and Allah was calling them good anyway. No, they just they're they're the same They just reject Muhammad and then all of a sudden the rules Suddenly changed and the Quranic view of them changed and just let me tell you Because we've been accused of taking things out of context where we're reading these things out of context Well, I quoted surah 9 verse 29 opening Let's go ahead and read what this says in context because this is this is addressing jews and christians So the passage begins in surah 9 verse 28 It says oh you who believe truly the pagans are unclean So let them not after this year of theirs approach the sacred mosque and if you fear poverty Soon will Allah enrich you if he wills out of his bounty for Allah is all-knowing all-wise. So Allah is going to enrich the muslim community after After the pagans were no longer allowed to Interact with them during the pilgrimage. Well, how is Allah going to enrich them says he's going to enrich them next verse Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the last day nor hold that forbidden Which has been forbidden by Allah and his messenger nor acknowledge the religion of truth From among the people of the book jews and christians until they pay the jizya with willing submission and feel themselves subdued notice All of the requirements all of the justifications for fighting us have to do with basic Religious beliefs and practices here. There's no attacking the muslim community or engaging in war or Taking part in evil behaviors. It's saying don't hold forbidden that which has been forbidden by Allah and Muhammad So if your religion forbids one thing Or doesn't forbid something that islam forbids. That's a justification for fighting you You don't have to be doing something evil. You just have your religion just has to forbid something differently and that's a justification for fighting But why fight jews and christians who are people of the book? Well next verse And the jews say ezra is the son of Allah and the christians say the messiah is the son of Allah These are the words of their mouths. They imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before Allah's curse be upon them how they are turned away So the claim is that since christians say The messiah is the son of Allah. That's the justification for fighting us So this says this has nothing to do with christians going out and and being horrible evil people It's about christian belief. That's the justification for fighting us Um, have we done anything else next verse? 931 they took their rabbis and monks To be their lords besides Allah and christ the son of Mary yet. They were commanded to worship But one god there is no god but he prays and glory to him far as he from having the partners they associate with him Any other reasons for fighting us next verse? They desire to put out the light of Allah with their mouths notice it says with our mouths Not by the sort. This is referring to what we say. This is referring to us stating what we believe about god But Allah will not allow but that his light should be perfected even though the unbelievers may detest it Allah won't allow jews and christians to spread our beliefs through preaching But how's Allah going to stop us next verse 9 33? It is he who has sent his messenger Muhammad with guidance and the religion of truth Islam to prevail it over all religion even though the idolaters may Detest it. So how is how is Allah going to prevail the religion over all others? Sir 9 verse 29 fight those who believe not in Allah until they pay the jizya with willing submission and feel themselves Subdued now. That's the entire passage and it relates to what our friends are saying Ah, you know you jews and christians. You're not the best of peoples anymore and and It's because of your behavior and so on It's it's it's this says it's because of what we believe and what we say So I'm in this boat right now I'm in this boat right now. There are calls to fight against me. Why because I say I say jesus is lord So I'm in the same boat. So there are real World consequences for the teachings. These are interpersonal. These are interpersonal Claims because this is a command for one person to violently subjugate me and I actually have it much better than Nuriya because she's an apostate in addition to being a critic of Islam and so I'll hand it over to her Thank you, David. Um, yeah, so it's kind of interesting in general that you guys Wanted to change the topic to interpersonal values because just like people I'm sure at the beginning of this debate We're also saying what does that even mean in the context of the Quran? any kind of interaction with any person inter person can be constituted for the purpose of this debate. So if you want to stick to strictly sweet principles like mercy and you know generosity as Ahmed did in his opening statement I agree as David also conceded like the Quran has calls for that But I would go as far as to say the generosity and the justice that you talk about the mercy That Allah likes to call himself as one of his 99 names are Rahman is only extended to muslims We see that in Quran 48 29 Where it says Muhammad is the messenger of Allah and those who are with him are strong against unbelievers But compassionate amongst each other So again, this is only relating to muslims And I know you're trying to add that any other group is not counted in the purpose of this discussion But I think that's a ridiculous angle to take The Quran Quran 47 35 also clearly states Cry not and ask not for peace as long as you have the upper hand This constantly shows that Islam is in a perpetual state of war and is acting on whether or not Muhammad and the muslims at the time were in power or not Ahmed also mentioned that when muslims would come across other Nations or peoples they had a unique way of behaving. I believe was the words that you used My question to you would be is the unique way of behaving that you talk about Giving them two options whether to convert or die And also Quran 923 even if they were to succumb to islam's wrath of the sword It says any I won't use the word revert, but any convert to islam Can't take his own family as friends. So again, I don't know if that's interpersonal enough for the both of you Um, moving on to Muhammad not the supposed prophet But the Muhammad here with us you said lying isn't good blood and blood that's the worst thing a human being can do Allah hates it All of that jazz But please tell me if i'm wrong certain schools of thought in islam allow you to lie If the motive is for islamic propaganda, right? So as long as the motive is to expand islam and to to portray it in this positive light You are allowed to lie on certain occasions I believe there's multiple hadiths that give three occasions when you are allowed to lie One of them is definitely in a state of war and as I said islam is a political ideology that is always in a state of war So, yeah, um, I don't know how that fits in with your lying. Um, that Allah considers a sin Muhammad, but you also said There's beautiful things such as you know, you should answer people nicely when they respond or answer even better Again, that relates only to muslims if a muslim greets you you need to give an equal if not better greeting However Again, the hadith even back up the fact does it not say Muhammad in the hadith that you should push jews and christians To the narrowest part of the road So, I don't know what you're talking about if the Quran calls for violence against them and the hadith verifies it I think you're the one who's deluded mate. Uh, I'll call it cognitive dissonance Or you doing takya or whatever, but you need to take a hard look in the mirror about who's deluded Um, lastly, I want to ask you. Do you know what marital rape is? I don't think you do but the rest of the world does Name me one islamic country that has criminalized marital rape in fact, any woman that goes to Report rape in an islamic country gets done for adultery Look at that poor woman that was in Qatar trying to help the world cup She got raped and she got done for adultery As opposed to that. So I don't know again. I hope that's interpersonal enough for you. It is definitely occurring between two people Um, so whether you guys are trying to you know make this into a gray area topic wise It's all relevant. Thank you You gotta thank you very much. We're gonna kick it into the second rebuttal. This one is eight minutes So about four minutes per person. We'll kick it over to you finding truth and Muhammad the floor is all yours Be on mute if I can't tell if either of you talking Oh, whoops, and I actually realized that part of my previous rebuttal my camera was down Uh, okay. So just let me know if this happens again. Anyway, so let's start now. All right, so, um Thanks for your statements. Let me let me again just start from where Nurea ended. So she says About the topic the topic the the topic is interpersonal values actually nothing being changed here So I will I took the last time the the matter of kundum khaira umma you have you have been a The best community race for people The second thing that What was relevant that david said was actually related to taking jews and christians as friends And he says we're not allowed to take jews and christians as friends, which is false Uh, the Quran makes a clear statement about whether muslims are allowed to take christians as friends or not or jews or people of any other religion to that matter because later when muslims went to other countries that are not Christians or jews they treated people who had Specific religions in those countries the same way like we treated christians and jews like people of persia, for example who Who were said to be worshiping according to an older religion that was corrupted So what does the Quran say about that matter because why am I am I referring to this because it makes a difference in somebody's interpersonal treatment with others If they are christians and jews if he should not religiously Have a relation of friendship or an amicaba relation with them. So it's quite relevant So what does the Quran say? The Quran says this it says What does it mean? Allah does not forbid you Respecting those who have or with respect to those who have not made war against you on account of your religion And have not given you forth from your homes that you show them that you show them kindness and deal with them Justly surely Allah loves the doers of justice Tabarruhum al bir is doing Something on doing a good thing towards somebody So why is this ayah mentioned in that specific text because there are ayat as david said in the Quran that relates to war That relates to the action of the islamic nation Towards another nation that shows animosity to it now This ayah is there to tell the individual the muslim individual if this applies to him or not So it tells him it does not apply to your relation with somebody else Who has is not fighting you and is not driving you out of your home You should actually be kind and you should give to them and you should be just to them And then the next ayah makes a further elaboration. These are ayat in surah al-mumtahina verses eight and nine It says this God forbids you from those who have now I am I am translating in my mind God Forbids you this is not translation this translation of meaning to be accurate. God forbids you From those who have fought you Or driven you out of your homes and made alliances against you to drive you out of your homes that You Befriend them Tawallahu them And those who befriend them those are the oppressors um, so these two ayat Will resolve the whole thing about everything that david said about friendship Or willaya or tawallahu them the other ayat if I say in arabic use the same words So if it's a if it's a country at war with another country even on the individual level Those who are not combatants Are excluded and definitely people who live with muslims Whether in their communities or in the islamic communities have nothing to do with them If somebody is good to us is not fighting us not driving us to out from our homes Then normal relationship neighbor friend is all okay Now there has been so many other topics that have been raised some of them are relevant some or not I think in the open discussion will come to them. I leave the the rest of the eight minutes to Muhammad Okay, so, uh, yeah interpersonal skills just the quick google is literally includes verbal non-verbal communication and the ability to handle conflict Teamwork and empathy listening and positive attitude. It's a it's an individual values You're you're talking about like the whole communities and the issues within other communities But like uh, no david there's a concept you need to understand when it comes to religion Okay, so this is your law So god is a king you're serving this king if you're not showing loyalty to your king to your creator at that point You're self oppressive because you're self oppressive You're like literally showing what the Quran says about people like you you become deaf dumb and blind You think you're guided you think you become arrogant you're saying things But in reality you're saying a lot of garbage, okay And because you show the lack of loyalty you cause problems to the kids that are coming And you're causing problems to the society around you. So yeah, we're gonna tax you not for you to believe It's just so that you know what people like you consider the money So no, I rather just fake convert to Islam and then your kids are gonna be muslims and their generations actually turn So this is how it happened in places like albania and turkey Their kids are really good muslims while their parents weren't but they just converted to save some money So that's the ideology behind it so that there isn't a war But aside from that like you're you're talking about the whole verse The people are saying that god has a son Like you know, you understand the the like The mental breakdown you have when you say that the ultimate king that never dies has an air That's you turning against your god. So yeah, you're showing lack of loyalty. What's the and speaking of loyalty How in a million years can you justify or your religion allows you to go team up with an atheist? An ex muslim atheist, okay That doesn't believe in god to go defend Or to attack a different religion that does believe in the same god that you believe in because we're going back To not jesus's values or muhammad's values sallallahu alaihi wa sallam Both of them, but it's actually abraham's mentality abraham is the one who had this mentality that we have in the conduct that we have The person that led us closest to this mentality is prophet muhammad. That's why but tabi o millete burahi ma hanifan So follow the way of abraham upright monotheistic that he doesn't associate to god So your whole concept of understanding what religion is is flawed and you guys come back in like Noria simple question. Are you sitting on that chair? Yes, you are Are you did god show you mercy 100 percent after insulting him and after insulting prophet muhammad? So when you're saying that god's not showing mercy to everybody, you're completely wrong. You're sitting fine on that chair That mercy is going to stop on a day of judgment when you're going to start going through your own Hell that you build in your mind and how the devil put all these blockages abroad of you because of the things that you say When we're talking about verses of god and we're showing you how like, you know What we're actually peaceful with people unless if they cross as you're saying no no you guys cross first That's not true and that's not what the quran says but your response is blah blah blah That's what you said your little words was blah blah blah So when it comes to god's verses and god's way of action and how you're supposed to act Your response is blah blah blah because as the quran says people like you people who act like you and say what you say They become arrogant. They think they know it all you're talking about interpersonal Relationships people The only thing that you do is is is say the opposite when it was what in the quran said So you're not honest and god says like if someone says to you peace in the quran So if someone says to you peace don't say to him Oh, we're not going to give you peace because you're not a believer like make sure they're okay And then see what they're about if they're fighting you then you don't give them peace at the bayan So we're supposed to investigate the person who's giving us peace and give them peace if you and time We're going to kick it into The open discussion want to say our guest or link to the description as I mentioned folks So, we don't know forgive me david and norea will have their eight minute rebuttal Then we'll go into the open discussion David norea. They go the rebuttal is all yours. They all they almost caught you there. Yeah, they almost caught you Falling apart. He's falling apart. It's a long morning. Yeah all right as far as um Not being allowed to take jews and christians as friends I mean surah 5 verse 51 Very clear one of the clearest verses in the quran Do not take the jews and the christians for friends. They are friends of each other And so if you want to say Allah means something different there You got some problems because again over and over and over in the quran like a beating drum Allah claims that his commands are perfectly clear And so if you're going to say hey, I'm going to be friends with jews and christians even though Allah says Do not take the jews and the christians for friends. They are friends of each other Well, that's that's between you and and Allah there now ahmed quoted surah 60 verses eight to nine to show that That muslims are indeed allowed to be friends with jews and christians And this is a very interesting passage to quote I'd recommend going to tafsir jalalain on this because The two jalals note note the obvious namely this was abrogated by later calls to fight and violently subjugate people Which is clear if you read the quran in context and you understand that that one of the basic Defining principles of interpreting the quran is the doctrine of abrogation later commands to fight abrogate earlier commands Like this and even if we didn't even if we didn't understand the doctrine of abrogation Imagine what would happen if we go to that surah. It's not very long Imagine what would happen if we go to that surah and we go back just a few verses earlier So he's quoting surah 60 verse 8 go back just a few verses earlier to an example given to muslims surah 60 verse 4 same chapter a few verses earlier Indeed there is for you a good example in abraham and those with him when they said to their people Surely we are clear of you and of what you serve besides allah We declare ourselves to be clear of you and enmity and hatred have appeared between us and you forever Until you believe in allah alone Now notice the quran says take abraham as an example here abraham says In the quran abraham says to the unbelievers the non muslims There is enmity and hatred between us and you forever Until you believe in allah alone Well, that sounds a lot like what nuria and i are saying about what islam teaches it actually Promotes enmity and hatred and again. This is the passage that ahmed went to this is the passage he went to and it's promoting quote enmity and hatred but muslims and non muslims forever Until non muslims become muslims. That's not me. That is uh, that's allah himself And so if this is your go-to passage to show no jews and christians can be friends You need to go to a different passage because notice in surah nine, which i quote i quoted surah 9 29 in context Talking about jews and christians are actually because what we say because look because christians say that jesus Is lord that we're actually we're actually in the polytheist category. We're not true monotheists Well, what does what would what does the chapter that ahmed quoted say about this nothing But enmity and hatred between us because of what we believe Hence the command to violently subjugate us and silence us and remember what what What was it for it was because of what we say with our mouths It was not because of waging war or anything else It was because of things we say with our mouths nothing but enmity and hatred towards us And the call to violently subjugate us. So Thank you ahmed for proving our point here. Nurya Yeah, thanks david, um Yeah, ahmed just to come back to kind of what you were saying earlier again about how You know islam treats people so well wherever they go bloody blind You gave the example specifically of the people of persia whether they you know, there were zoroastrians or fire worshipers But have you heard of the parses? um Ahmed because they actually fled muslim persecution to india. That's why the community still exists there So I think if you were to ask them about how they were treated and tolerated and accepted under some You'd get a completely different picture So what the quran or muhammad has done is actually Far less commendable than even cyrus the great who came way before and had a lot more foresight On how to treat minorities and have pluralism So, yeah, I also think that Obviously it's not unrealistic to see why this is still happening today Um, I want to ask ahmed again Do you not agree that it's islamists in afghan islam that are blowing up the bamiyan buddhas and every trace of religion That came before islam islam can't tolerate any other culture in existence But it's own you can see that wherever islam is gone They have wiped out the native culture and imposed the arab culture onto them That's why I say it is an imperialist ideology with an expansionist agenda There is no treatment for minorities. Look at countries like pakistan as well You're not even allowed to hold office because it has the title islamic republic in front of it These are all issues that you guys definitely do need to consider Um, I would also go as far as to say those islamists that are blowing up the bamiyan buddhas and and everything else They consider to be idolatry are just mimicking the behavior of muhammad when he destroyed the 360 idols in the kava And then I think it's coming on to muhammad your points when you talk about Again into pastoral values. You googled it. Thank you so much for us and you said it's how you deal with other people verbal But muhammad literally said when his own people were concerned that they were killing women and children in their raids When he was asked about the polytheists women and children dying. He said they are from them Um, I can give you the hadith number from that as well But yeah, it's a same muslim 1745 a And yeah, again, uh, muhammad. I don't know what you're talking about when dealing with other people muhammad himself Led at least 29 battles. Okay. I know it's embarrassing for you And I know that you're that your threats of judgment day and the devil and what's what's out They don't affect me But the harsh reality is the reason I'm sitting on this chair is because you're not in power and your religion is not in power If it was I wouldn't be sitting on this chair. So again, I'm grateful that here in the west islam is subdued Otherwise you talk about interpersonal relationships. I'd be gone your religion commands my death And that is something that falls under sharia and it would be a thing. So Again, um, I just want to say that even your muhammad like you will you want to threaten me about judgment day and me finding out muhammad himself Wasn't even safe the guy tried to commit suicide Before he was supposedly a prophet on a number of occasions. He had his teeth knocked out during a battle He was wearing two suits of armor Okay, and made the other muslim guy go in for him. So again the power of 30 men He has sexually I wish it was replicated for him in times of battle And also, I don't know what flavor of islam or sect of islam you belong to but Um, he was poisoned and killed by a jewish woman according to some schools of islamic thought You do not get to heaven if you are murdered at the hands of a woman or you die at the hands of a woman So I guess even muhammad's fate in that sense would be questionable Um, but yeah, that's what I'd like to say for now. Thank you Thank you very much for that and now we'll jump into that open dialogue. Thank you very much The floor is all yours david norea muhammad in finding truth See norea you keep doing that same thing You just take like little verses small things from like different parts Some of it authentic some of it not and then you make up your own story Prophet muhammad didn't die because of a jewish lady Poisoning him even if he did that could be the case There is no story about muhammad turning his back into battle because that's definitely against the Religion and just to finalize the point for you Cyrus the great However great he was and however good he dealt with minorities He doesn't have a seven billion people throughout history after him Following his ideologies and his methodologies and trying to find Like a good value system in life on how to live prophet muhammad has seven billion Subscribers if he was a if it was a person on youtube. He has seven billion people following him, so Seven billion. Wow. That's the entire population of the world. So that's uh, yeah Yeah, but in throughout history, do you understand from 1400 now? Not everybody stays living But maybe that concept's also too hard when you can't have you heard of the argument ad popular as well Do you are you aware of that? I understand it's about what are you trying to say then? But you got to look at the other side. I'm not saying the whole world That's still a small portion of the world because seven billion doesn't represent the whole population But it's a it's like almost a third of the whole world Following a single man's ideology because he was able to upkeep seven houses Seven wives are happy at once. He was a state general. He was a state politician He was a general in the army. He was taking care of Every need that people were coming towards him people loved him people went and pursued him for for the truth And and they learned on how to deal with each other because of this single man So this is where you guys like fail So however big and and smart you guys think like you'll never get to or even like a cue of what that man accomplished Um, yeah, um, I I I would oh wait wait wait wait we wanted to address that and then we can and then uh Med can continue. Um, so Nuria brought up the the argument ad populum. So basically be You saying hey look at all these people who believe this therefore it must be true Very very strange sort of Argument, I mean communism is believed by lots of people's got absolutely nothing as far as I can tell whether Something is true. I mean, uh, you know covid spread rapidly has nothing to do with you know It being part of a true ideology or something like that If you if you look at the the main reasons for the rapid growth of islam It's it's high birth rates. So it was it was It was islamic expansion fighting Muslim fighters fought their way across northern africa into europe And they fought their way east into india and china and um They would they they violently sub subjugated populations and apart from that the the main source of growth Uh for the past couple centuries has been high growth rates in muslim countries. So What you're what you'd basically be saying is islam conquered a lot of people And then because of apostasy laws and so on doesn't allow them to leave And uh because of islam's impact on women, uh muslims have the highest birth rates generally And therefore this must be true. Whereas this is precisely the sort of thing we might look at And say actually there's nothing in here that has anything to do with this with this being true But nuri, I'm sure you had some some additional thoughts on that Oh, don't hear you Oh, sorry. Sorry. Yeah, no. Um, thanks david mom. I just wanted to say yeah correction I didn't say he turned his he turned his back. I said he wore two two suits of armor He literally said to one of his companions there that the best of people are those who jumped into battle Without armor for the sake of Allah because he wanted to usurp that person. So this is the great man But you're right david and I can never ever be capable of doing what Muhammad did and thank goodness for that We we're not capable of genocide We're not capable of making sex slavery and institution We're not capable of subjugating half the population We're not capable of banning adoption and how Muhammad proved it to us by marrying his adopted son's wife What a great man. What a great set of interpersonal values because we really needed to know that Muhammad We really needed to know that it's okay to marry your adopted son's wife and let's just chuck out adoption While that's at it. Yeah, so in favor of Muhammad's lustful eye or whatever was happening there He got rid of adoption and we have to live with that for the rest of As long as people like you conform to this ideology and belief system by thinking that Because you are having the most babies in the world that islam is somehow true as david said That's a complete logical fallacy It may and the thing is again Look at muslim households when you allow polygamy And you subjugate women and keep them confined to their houses to make them baby making machines Because you're scared of them getting independent getting an education Being financially astute to not need you not be obedient to you and be in your control That islam will collapse without women islam will die and you need to keep them in check. That's what it is A woman in islam is constantly like a child. She's a glorified child with no rights So i'd like you to prove me otherwise if you can i don't know again. Maybe that's not interpersonal enough for you It's just two people sharing a bed, but sure okay, so um Um, i have i have two comments here actually so so the first one really is Um About what you guys have just said I do not expect At christian and and somebody who has left islam to have high regard To the prophet or not and the matter of numbers Is not the issue The issue we are discussing here is whether for any values related to interpersonal conduct are good or not Now whether you like the prophet or you like the muslim nation or you like this or that is is irrelevant um, the one thing that i am Again, I think is quite relevant At least in what in what david was saying is whether Because this relates interpersonal conduct is whether muslims and people of other religions specifically in his case christians and jews Can be friends or can have good relations with muslims or not Now david i'm telling you yes Do you want us just to hate you or what man? Don't hate us that much to the extent you want this Because we won't No, just just just so you just so you know ahmed some of my some of my best friends Of all time some of my best friend my best friend all through college was a muslim i had a friend Before that who was an imam We were we were weightlifting partners. We used to argue all the time, but we uh, but we got along. So yeah, no, I I agree um, I agree Christians and muslims can be friends And that muslims are you know, you can always reinterpret what the what the karan says But as I pointed out in my opening i'm not talking about what individual muslims believe I'm talking about what what it looks like the the karan says, but yes, I agree with you And I I have no I have no I've got too many I've done too many horrible things in my life to say Oh, all these other people are so bad. I can't I can't be friends with them or something like that So I'm I'm I'm pretty cool with uh, I'm pretty cool with with everyone Okay, so so so now we focus on the point is a good muslim Okay to be a good friend to a christian or not then let's say that so if somebody who is a muslim who wants to commit to Quranic values Would accept having good relations not only with muslims but also with christians and jews or not Let this be the question then so my claim is yes, and now we have both Made comments about surat al-mum tahina where you have mentioned the the matter of ibrahim I have actually recently watched one of your um debates. I don't remember the other gentleman that you were debating, but he was a muslim And um, you mentioned things about abrogation, etc Uh, now I have a specific I have a specific opinion about the exsurbant use of abrogation in islamic scholarship and Uh, um, and there are very different schools about abrogation, but let me Specifically because that let's just use this sura and I will now show you That your methodology your put your own methodology will lead you to accept my position So let's start the sura from the beginning. I'll I'll take Four or five minutes in that so the sura starts by It starts by the position that you are talking about All people who believe Do not take my enemy and your enemy as awliya and let's even use the word awliya as friends Like you like your friends stated it has so many meanings. I'll just use the word friends like your life Tulquna ilayhim bil-mawadda you give them Good relationships Waqat kafaru bi-majaa'ahum min al-haq While they have disbelief in what has come to them of truth And then now the qualification David is the important thing. Why is he blaming them because You khrijuna rasula wa iyakum an tu'minu billahi rabbakum. They are driving you out And the prophet because you have believed in god your lord in allah your lord In kuntum khalashum jihadum fisabili wa ad-digha'am ar-dhafi So I am telling you not to take them as awliya if you have gotten out of your homes to do jihad in my way And seeking my satisfaction To sirruna ilayhim bil-mawadda wa an'a'alam wa min al-akhfaitum wa a'alentum you are in secret Sending them notions of friendship while I clear while exactly, you know What you have kept in secret and what you have kept public And he who does this from you he has gone astray. So the ayah is talking about this It is in a state of war where muslims are in a state of Direct war with the people of quraish And some of the muslims are afraid that the results of this war will not turn out well And they are sending secret messages to the people in mecca or quraish to keep good relations on the personal level So Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala is sending them no You cannot see good relations for your own benefit You cannot spy on the muslim community for own personal benefit against people who are fighting you And then he says that if those very people under the state of war find you And if they meet you they will be your enemies And they will Send their hands towards you and their tongues with bad deeds And they would like you to disbelieve so it is the whole picture is in the state of war And then he says remember abraham abraham david who you know very well from your holy book That he was living in the time of numrul a very bad oppressive king And he in our tradition through abraham in the file okay, and So he's telling them when this was an oppressive king who was so bad to those people who believed including abraham himself Abraham did not go and do friendship with him He he was clear about it But then my ayat come And before my ayat come he says And then he says this now watch what he's saying he says I It is hopeful that god will create good relations. Mawadda is actually affection Mawadda and good relations and affection between you and those whom you have become enemies Okay. Well, oh for rahim. Well, oh god is all powerful and he is merciful and forgiving And then he says the two ayat that I have told you So he becomes now specific Now you are in a state of war of people of Quraysh But in general you have no problem to have good friendships with other peoples who are not in a state of Combating and military action against you and he says the next ayat if in your methodology Where you will take the later ayat as abrogating the previous one then your whole argument goes away If in my methodology where I will put every ayat in its specific context So there is the bigger context of conflict on the community or the nation level And there is the context of a person making a good relation with another person. These are two different contexts So the beginning of the iss when there is a conflict between your nation and another nation Do not go and have a relation with somebody who you know is at a very very negative position towards your nation And make friends with him for your personal interest This is very common and in your country and my country in every country of the world This will be considered a stay-onage if you are selling out your country for your personal interest And then he gives an example of Abraham and then he tells you setting that aside If somebody is not a direct combatant for you Or other community is not in combat with you or a specific person who is your neighbor is not Holding a combatant position or an offensive situation versus you personally or your religion Then there is no problem to be his friend, but even in the Quran. He says hopefully you will become friends According to your methodology, you should not have any issue with this Surah or this chapter or those ayat all together Not not my not my methodology At all as far as as far as what you're saying If we were in an Islamic context of when this is supposedly being revealed to Muhammad and you said hey This is not forbidding you from being friends with Jews and Christians. I would say You're right You're I would say you're right as far as as far as this chapter goes That is what it sounds. So I'm not saying. Hey, you know this first right here Abrogates that one abrogates that one abrogates that one that that comes before it The only issue I would have about this chapter as far as what you're saying is When it talks about Abraham and he says surely we are clear of you and of what you serve besides Allah And we declare ourselves to be clear of you and enmity and hatred have appeared between us and you forever Until you believe in Allah alone notice That's not until you stop bothering us or until you stop being bad or until you stop doing all these horrible things It's there is enmity and hatred between us until you believe in Allah alone So gotta That's one issue because that's what's being given as an example Apart from that I would agree with your with your interpretation Of the surah the difficulty is the difficulty is that this that command Is not it's not that it's abrogated by another verse in the surah that it's abrogated by later commands to fight And again, that's not that's not D. Wood's Opinion that's I mean you go to top seers dollar lanes is this was revealed before the command To fight them as far as as far as abrogation I mean the the historical background of the verses on abrogation I'll go and finish with this because I because I know Muhammad has has something he wants to add But you know the the typical verses on abrogation surah 16 verse 101 surah 2 verse 106 Um, I'll read the the the historical background Here in al-wahadi. So the the historical background for surah 16 verse 101 Says this verse was revealed when the idolaters said Muhammad is mocking his companions one day he commands them to do something and the next day He forbids them from doing something or brings instead something which is easier He has nothing but a forager who says things of his own Invention and historical background on 2 106 says then Allah mentions what was abrogated of the Quran And that which was not abrogated as a direct reference to the claim of the Quraysh Who said to the prophet oh Muhammad why do you command us to do something and then forbid it and Allah reveals Whatever communications we abrogate are caused to be forgotten. We bring one better than it or like it So the historical background is unbelievers pagans polytheists Kept noticing wait a minute Muhammad commands one thing and then later on he commands something else and says that This abrogated or canceled the earlier revelation And they say what what's going on here looks like Muhammad's just messing with everybody and then Allah's response is Oh, yeah, of course I abrogate stuff. I command stuff, uh, you know one time that abrogates or cancels Earlier revelations and so the the underlying principle is when two commands are telling you to do Different things it really looks like one abrogates or cancels the other That's that's the position of the Quran and so when we look at the last Major Surah the last large Surah revealed Surah 9 and we read fight those who do not believe in Allah And we read the historical context We read the literary context and we see this is commanding to violently Subjugate Jews and Christians because of our beliefs because of what we say with our mouths because we say things like Jesus's lord and there are there are calls for violence against us It just doesn't make a lot of sense to say, ah, but in surah 60 verse 8 this earlier command It didn't say that and therefore it must mean that we can all be friends and get along Especially when surah 5 verse 51 was was also revealed So Surah 5 verse 51 for for those who missed it earlier Do not take the Jews and Christians for friends. So don't take the Jews and Christians for friends. They're friends of each other Fight those who do not believe in Allah. I went ahead and read the read that in context We could go to the historical context if you want but to just say ah this this this verse that was revealed much earlier In the context of a book that that gives the doctrine of abrogation as a defining principle of how to interpret it Um, doesn't seem like a doesn't seem like a powerful or persuasive response to me Um, I will just say I would just say a small comment before we go to Muhammad Um, I I don't have a problem to go through the matter of forum piece Between muslims and people of the book specifically with you Because I have seen I have seen other debates that you heard about this topic And I think that those debates did not did not do fairness to the topic Um, even the verses that you are talking about in surah al-maida and surah al-anfal I can show you exactly in the same way that I showed you how surah remove tahina and you agreed does not Lead to what you are saying I can show you in the other ones that they do not lead what you are saying. This is uh, Soras and verses about international relations and relations that relate to the state of war They do not relate to interpersonal conduct and they even do not Have this generic sense that you are talking about I can prove it to you Beyond reasonable doubt. It is a big topic. It cannot be finished now. It is a big topic. The final comment is that Yeah, go ahead. Yeah, no, I just wanted. Yeah, this is not this is not me responding to anything It's just uh, I am interested in that topic. So if sometime in the future you want to have a specific discussion like just about that passage in Uh, sorry, matter of fact doesn't even have to be a debate You can come with me on my channel We can just have a discussion and you can tell me your thoughts on that and be happy to be happy to hear I'll I'll I'll be happy to do that. So if if if James can share our both our emails after this I'll I'll be happy to do that with you. Um, the the the final thing is that of course, you know Like in your book and in my book the story of Abraham is mentioned in many places in the Qur'an So when the Qur'an in Surah al-Mumtahina Makes a reference to the story of Abraham. It doesn't need to say the story from the beginning Because the context where Abraham was the persecution And throwing him in the fire and causing him driving him out of the land of kan'an altogether Was similar to the situation of Muslims at that time who were driven out of Mecca by the Qur'an So again, the Qur'an has to be read in a whole and has to be in the specific order and context So this is I just don't want to take over all of Muhammad's time since we agreed we can take this and for the aberration I'm happy to do that at your convenience Uh, David, what so you're translating the word aliyah welly as friends, right? So that's like the simplest way But I I'm not I'm not I'm not Muslim trans Muslim translators are but I know I know you can point out additional additional meanings to it But go ahead. It's not about pointing out. Yes. There is the translation of friends It can't come as the term is friends But that's actually like a almost like a loose translation because it more so of a protector welly It comes from the word welly, which is someone who's who's like a step higher of you So you can't you can't be friends with somebody but then putting them as a protector. That's the issue It's like you yourself are saying like, oh, they have a problem with what we believe Well, God, God didn't like God didn't tell you to believe what you believe You saying the excess about God that Jesus is the Son of God or that Jesus is Lord That's an excess that that's like too much, you know, that that's not stuff that you were told to believe So for us, it's it's insulting. It's insulting to God that you're saying that but with that said, right God is always saying to us like Like when people are explaining things about God, we say exalted is God and we let you be like we will warn you like be careful because like Your heaven you can't get to heaven when you're saying that kind of stuff on a day judgment God's gonna ask you where's my son and you're gonna try to point to Jesus But Jesus is not there and then you're gonna feel ridicule and those are the things that we're trying to scare you with Is that the fact that you're gonna be held accountable to what you're saying? But it's not the enormity in the thing the hate that you're talking about it actually comes from the other side It's the fact that we disassociated from you just like how abraham said like we're disassociating from you And we don't believe what you're saying. We don't like what you're saying. It doesn't make sense to us Because we're disassociating and cutting a different path the Baghdad and the hate comes from the other side Muslims don't make a whole like mass media To try to hate on the united states and play with people's head and make intelligent services to go ruin other countries That's happening to Islam because Islam is the one that's in the position of defense The hate is coming from the outside But it seems like we're the ones to you that we're perpetuating the hate because we have to retaliate But if you're controlling the mass media, you're the one who's causing this campaigns against us and obviously Whatever we retaliate is going to look like a bad light to you but to go back to the topic What i'm saying like on a personal level when we're dealing with each other A lot of stuff that you guys are saying like you're always going to the most extremist interpretation of these Of these verses and from people that are not educated from people that lack the the growth that can help them Understand these verses better and god loves those in muhassin those who are righteous like if i as like mario said like Me force myself on my wife. That's not right. Just god said we created your wife So that like we created from man his wife so that he could live for her And then we also have to like So I have to like treat her with favor and fairness. She's she's my partner. She's not my kid as you're saying So I don't know a lot of stuff that you guys are are putting is is what the extremists and the enemies of Of the religion are saying and you guys take things out of context like the the whole point of Jewish christian and muslim religion is to Make the world a better place But there is a war. Yes, there is a war. We have an enemy to the day of judgment that enemy is the devil He's the one who's making you feel like there's a difference or that you mistreated and that you need to retaliate or those people are wrong That's the enemy. It's not us between each other. It's these thoughts that people have But Islam clears that all up. There isn't there isn't a problem that you're going through in your life That the Quran doesn't have a verse about Um, I wanted to hand this over to nariah. I just had a one one quick comment here so there there are reasons there are lots of translators who translate aliyah as friends But i'm going to go i'll show you why very quickly um, you wanted to you said You could translate it as protectors And you said that a wali is is something higher. It's something a step higher So your awliya are something uh above you, but surah So just so everyone everyone is following so they're Surah five verse 51 says do not take the jews and christians as awliya Which some translators translate as friends and muhammad is saying no it's actually something Higher Like a protector a protector over you guardian or something like that, but it's it's a step higher than you Problem surah 10 verse 62 Low verily the friends of Allah are those on whom fear cometh not nor do they grieve this refers to the awliya of Allah So this is translated friends of Allah awliya of Allah, but according to muhammad here Awliya is your protector and is a step above you. So this should actually be Verily the protectors of Allah who are a step above him Uh on on them there is there is no fear nor do they grieve and so they're there again It's just protected by God protected by jews Like it's the same mentality. I don't understand where you're seeing it to you You said you said you said no you said you said awliya is protector and your words this means something And this means this means let me let me just finish this means something a step higher So if we translate surah 10 verse 62, which refers to the friends of Allah Well, that's the awliya of Allah if that means these are Allah's protectors, and they're a step above him They're a step higher than there are beings who are Protectors of Allah and they're a step higher than he is and my friend muhammad just committed all kinds of shirk But Nuria did you have any thoughts on the rest of what muhammad said and you can respond to that Can we can we just close this thing because I saw you actually even debate this same word with people before And I was really surprised that none of them actually has given you the right answer It was really surprising to me So let me just close this because And maybe we can expand on that on our related thing So the word wali and awliya it's the plural and the word maula which refers to an individual person So I say I am maula david Or david is maula ahmad Okay The word maula is one of those arabic words that can actually mean one thing and is exact opposite Okay, so the word if I if you say for example Frank and I don't know george. So if you say that frank is maula george It can mean That george is the slave of frank or that frank is the slave of george And the only way that you will know which which which is which is by checking the context So this word specifically you have to be very careful with it And this is why you will find statements in the quran That you will find awliya. Allah you can if you use the word friend You will not have the issue but sometimes the word friend will not actually work So awliya Allah in this case can be seen Now the nice thing about the word it can be seen that awliya Allah are the ones who protect Allah's revision Or are the ones that are being protected by Allah Okay, actually if you want to check the form in arabic and make sure that what I am telling you I'm somebody who has studied arabic for quite a long time and I studied this time Academically for four years. So I actually know what I'm talking about and I'm surprised that none of those who have You have talked about has explained this about this word And the reason this word has this property is that in many stick sentences Both meanings are needed. I just want to put this on the table and maybe we can expand on it Nuria anything? Yeah. Yeah, thanks. Um, so I just do want to you know Minus the elephant in the room I want to say to Muhammad and Ahmad that you know just by virtue of you two having this conversation today You are already better than Islam in my opinion Muhammad The fact that you know you you want to talk about judgment day and things like that That's okay to me as long as you don't want to end my life in the here and now as Islam tells you to do You are better than Islam and uh, it's the same thing for Ahmad the fact that you want to befriend christians and jews Even if you know, uh, I don't want to go into the whole abrogation thing I think you and david have handled that pretty well, but in general again You are better than Islam and I think let's go back to the the bare bones of the topic interpersonal Values or conduct, right? So the starting point of that would be Currently we are having this conversation because I am sitting comfortably in the west as are you guys Could we have this conversation in an Islamic state? Yes or no The fact is there is no way we could have that this conversation in an Islamic state So that's how you treat your own people. I was born into a religion that I had no choice about I was born into it, but the penalty for leaving is death. So there is no way out So for me, it's like how does Islam treat its very own people? How does Islam treat people who are questioning? How does Islam treat apostates like myself? I believe the word for it is itadat in arabic Which is akin to treason and that's why i'm saying again that this religion is more of a political ideology that considers somebody Leaving the fold as having committed treason, but again for me something that allows you to come in so easily And glorifies white reverts so to speak has no way out for its own adherence that had no choice in the matter It seems like a cult And yeah, so i wanted to say to you that you know, you talk about The that friendship could be reached and it is that's the aim is to foster this friendship But i wanted to ask you how long Will that last and how long is it supposed to last because according to your scripture? The last hour will not be established until you fight the jews So much so that i don't know like stones will come to life and speak and tell you where jews are hiding And it will tell muslims how to kill them. Uh, mohammed's looking very confused, but this is seh bochari I'll read it to you as well You said our scripture, but that's not on the Quran you're talking about What the prophet mohammed said that certain events are going to occur, but we're talking about the Quran here Yeah, I know I know but I was just adding a supplementary But that your hadith is saying on the last days you're going to have to fight the jews So how long will this supposed friendship last because if you want to summon the end times which you do, right? Um, how how are you going to go? But okay, but it's not us summoning the end times and i'm sorry I was born into a conflict where the designers jews are destroying my brothers So yes, it seems like that prophecy is slowly happening to a sense where hopefully, you know Our community can come back to its roots and we can you know as brothers take care of the oppression But it's not it's not it's not how you're like painting it out that we're warlords and we're going to go Nothing nothing is according to you right like you said something earlier about like oh It's insulting that me and david are presenting Information like this, but I would argue it's insulting to me and it's insulting to david When you are clearly glossing over hadith that says do not greet the jews and christians before they greet you And when any of them on the roads forced him to go to the narrowest part of it Right, then Right, but you see the thing is like you're talking about the the park about like forcing them to the narrowest power That's that's things that are not what we're discussing in the topic But when it comes to the greetings Yes, I'm gonna wait for the person to give me peace most of the world is not accepting of those who believe The believers I mean like in society the world is against believers The jews are believers in their own right. What are you talking about? The jews the jews were considered believers when moses was around after the Torah came down and after moses Yeah, but just because you don't consider them believers does not mean that they are not believers I see they are they have elements of belief But the fact that is they went and started to make up things after moses. That's why they're jews They were called muslims when moses was around there were no they weren't that's a that's a belief that you guys have they were not But you see this is the problem with you. It's muslim is not like a label like it's it has a definition It's a fithrat. It's the for natural disposition who it's not again. That's just a belief you have It's not a belief. It's the fact that you're failing translating the world a word So like David likes to say Allah or do you have to believe in Allah? So are you so are you saying David was born a muslim and he's just transgressed everything in like everything around you In the skies in the land is a muslim everything is submitted to god Yes, but here's the here's the proof you're laughing here's the proof finally in the Quran when god goes Yeah, you had muslim all muslims He says all believers you have to believe that you've submitted to the will of god. That's the religion that we are I'm saying believe it's belief. It's not based in any fact It's your belief But you believe in the truth. I mean it's still like you're supposed to believe If it's your belief, anyway, we digress did anyone want to come in? I believe you're sitting on the chair So so because I have the evidence to prove so I don't know what you're talking about. Yes, there's evidence There's god There's evidence that this book is is guiding me to the best kind of conduct because people like how I treat them Not in debates like this because the other side is just sometimes, you know Saying things that are not honest, but for my day to day life People appreciate how I act people appreciate how we talk people appreciate how we what we stand for So this is the essence of the Quran. You can't see sweeping statements like this evidence for god But anyway, that's to me. But anyway, go ahead. Sorry. Yeah, so I think you really you have asked an important question Which is if if this um Affection or good relations that I would like to see or that I say that the Quran Wants to be the case between Muslims and Christians, for example, are they destined to lost? And there is one topic that I would actually like if if we start this other conversation, David Then what is in the eyes of islam? the strategic relation between Muslims and Christians And the strategic I'm talking Christians specifically now because David is here if there was a Jew here I would have talked about that concerning Jews But the strategic relation between Muslims and Christians according to the islam is one of alliance It is completely to the contrary of what you have said And the evidence from that from surat al-ma'ida Is that surat al-ma'ida depict depicts A picture in the future Because even urea has mentioned in times now for your context and says like this Well, I did Anna Iqraba. I'm a lot of them who have been a man who didn't call you in the Nassar Very good. I mean, I'm gonna see now a real balance. I don't know. Yes, they're on. This is verse 82 of surat al-ma'ida. Okay Surah five I don't like calling surahs with their numbers. So it's sort of made So it is it starts by discussing some things about people of the book and about the israeli people many israeli specifically And then it goes into a futuristic View of how it is going to be at the end And with what I have said Would you like to quote it? Are you going to quote it for us? Yeah, it's surat al-ma'ida verse 82. Yeah, I know you're going to quote it for us. Yeah, I'm gonna I'm gonna Yeah, so so and it says and so surely you are going to find those who are closest to Closest in affection To the believers and here he is referring to muslims and ladina caru in the Nassar those who say We are christians I mean, I mean, I mean, are you gonna are you gonna quote the full verse because you're going right to the Yeah, sure. So it starts by talking about many israeli at the beginning of few a.s before that and It says why many israeli are not favored by god anymore because they have left an umbra min maloufa and nahi al-munkar. They are not anymore Pushing the good deeds and they are treating people differently Actually, the same criticism that you are saying is applicable to muslims is not in in the quranic view And is is is the reason that previous people of the book were disfavored by god and For example, for example, I was just wondering if you could if you could quote the entire Quote the entire verse for us in english and and then he says You will surely find and this is probably a futuristic view That there is going to be an alliance between jews and mushrikin is People who take partners to Allah or people to take who take Yeah partners to Allah No, so some some some would say that this might actually relate to the time of prophet muhammad Because there was an alliance between jews in madina And the mushrikun of quraj specifically in ghazwati al-ahzab when the madina was completely in circle And then the jews inside madina actually were letting were going to let The pagans of quraj in But I think this is looking futuristic. It is saying that at a point of time The world will have An alliance between people who completely disbelieve in Allah Ah, the word is not alliance, the word is not alliance Yeah, yeah, yeah, so it says there will be animosity between Um Those who believe from one side and jews and those who are not believing or taking partners to Allah from another side But in the same time People who say we are christians will be in a state of love and affection or a state of affection and good relations with muslims So the strategic relation between people who identify as christians And muslims Is one of affection and good relationship So what i'm telling you as david would why why do you do you not do not want that to be the case? now people who are jews And people who are disbelieving in god who are not part of this Front that is against muslims and who wants to drive muslims from their homes or to be back to them Are not related to this so somebody is a jew and he's a fair jew and he has no problem with a christian or a muslim muslims will then fall under the ayat of having good relations with him But if somebody And the same goes to somebody who is a christian and the same goes to somebody as a complete disbeliever If you are an enemy of somebody then this somebody will not be happy with having a relation with you So this ayat in the strategic sense says that muslims from one side believing muslims from one side and christians like yourself who identify as a christian you are coming to this debate For christianity you are somebody who cares about christianity. This is at least what i understand about you So people who identify as christian who care about the religious way of life a christian should lead And people who believe in allah in according to the religion of islam The strategic direction according to islam is that we should not be enemies I do want to so i just want this is an answering answering to what norea asks Should should should this affection or love be Completely short lived or not? No, it shouldn't In the personal level it should always be good relations unless there is animosity and on the strategic level Muslims and christians and any any person and even hindus and jews who want to live according to the religious way of life In righteousness and in good relations should not have any problem on the interpersonal level With muslims and on the community level muslims and christians should actually Defend the religious way of life I want to give david and norea a chance to respond and then someone also mentioned We've talked a lot about the you could say abrahamic religions They said they also want to hear about kind of the relationship with muslims or islam with hindus and buddhists and atheists But i want to give david and norea a chance to respond to that last point first if you have a Yeah, i'll i'll just give my my quick understanding of of that of that verse. Um, so the the the verse that uh, ahmed brought up Verily you will find so this is certified verse 82 Verily you will find the strongest among men in enmity to the believers so Distinguished in hostility towards the believers to be the jews and those who are al-mushrikun. So Associators And you will find the nearest in love to the believers those who say we are christians That is because amongst them are priests and monks and they are not proud So my understanding so what one yeah one i see Significant problems already. It's just this this blanket statements That that jews are the greatest in enmity to muslims But as far as as far as what i mentioned in my opening statement that the Chironic revelations seem to have a lot to do with uh, muhammad's mood and feelings Uh, when you look at this in the grand scheme of the chironic revelations when muhammad begins receiving revelations in mecca The the revelations during that time really seem like hey, it's it's it's us muslims and jews And christians and we're together Against the polytheists because we're the monotheist here and it's it's us versus It's us versus them later muhammad goes to medina and the jews reject him And that's when we get this. Hey, it's jews and polytheists on one side and muslims and christians On the other side then the christians reject him as a prophet as well And then what do we get after that fight those who do not believe in Allah and it's specifically that that that passage which i read in context Surah 9 verse 29 fight those who do not believe in Allah specifically referring to jews and christians The justification for fighting us was our beliefs as christians It wasn't that our behavior had changed. It was uh, it was our beliefs are justification for fighting us Well, how does that well, how does that change since surah 5? What changed? Well, what changed was that christians rejected muhammad since them and So the these i'm looking at it in that context and it seems to be based on muhammad's mood and muhammad's feelings But the final marching orders of the koran if you read the koran from beginning to end and you understand How abrogation works and you understand how it ties it all ties together Is not surah 5 verse 82 Oh, the jews are strongest in enmity like the polytheists, but christians are friends The final marching orders of the koran are fight those who do not believe in Allah And the command is to fight christians because again what we say with our mouths We say jesus is lord and that's why we have to be violently subjugated and so This is another situation where i don't think going to an earlier revelation pulling something out of it And then using that to overthrow the final commands of Allah is a good approach But as as you've as you've pointed out ahmed we we can always we can always discuss surah 9 in in more detail David just quick question in regards to that verse when god is saying that those who are jews, right? those are you're gonna find them as like the most Like they have the most imocities towards believers So you gotta look at the koran as a rule book a lot So if you're a jew and there's a set of believers that came after you You're gonna be they're gonna try to fight you and quick question when jesus was alive And uh, the people who believed in jesus who are called the believers at the time, right? What the jews do to uh, jesus and his group and what did they do around them? And what did they try to do to jesus so you could see that the verse is clearly true that the jews Show a lot of animosity towards any believers that came after them, right? And yes, the fact that there is a lot of mercy and there's a lot of forgiveness that is preached in Christianity is the reason why muslims and christians get along so well because we're so good to forgive So yeah, you're proving the first correct the people who tried to kill jesus or the jews Now I want to make some more comments about norea if If you'd like So norea you you some some of your statements were in my opinion outside of the scope of this But i'm i'm glad to discuss them with you if you'd like sound relate to the law some relate to apostasy, etc Sure On your on your point about I really appreciate you trying to like find loopholes for Christianity, right and what you're trying to explain to david. I do appreciate that But can you honestly say you could extend the same? Uh loopholes to jews and hindus, especially polytheists. Would you be able to find? Kind of this the same Yeah, so I will tell you this there is there is no issue what I am talking to to david as a christian But I have actually even on my channel. I have had uh people who who associate One way or another with the judo-christianity And I can tell you this Muslims never had an issue with the jews because they are jews once the prophet arrived to madina He created this covenant with the jews and muslims and jews in madina lived in a normal way until war became The status quo now jews later. Let's look at what happened to jews in the islamic world So when jews were persecuted in europe jews in the world were concentrated in two places in bagdad in the east and in andalusia in the west And when uh muslims were driven out of andalusia, which is iberia or spain and and portugal today jews left iberia with the muslims because they were getting persecuted by The qishtalians by by by the crusaders at that time So it has been historically proven that kairu bagdad And uh andalusia where the places where jews lived the best life on the face of the earth actually It says something about how islam wants to treat jews and christians and people of any other religion hindus hindus Um when when muslims dealt with hindus in my opinion for example brahman is another name for Allah This is in my opinion. I think that there is an issue because muslims In the eastern part of the world typically deal with christians That the real relation between islam and hinduism is is not known But there has been 800 years of muslims and hindus in in in the subcontinent of india living there's so much to be said about islam and hinduism Now hinduism has polytheistic issues Plenty of them Okay, but maybe I can say the thing the same thing about trinity in christianity For example the matter that three gods versus a hundred million or 300 million gods doesn't make really a difference But the point is do hindus worship a creator for this universe or not? Yes, they do and and he is called brahman and the features and characteristics of brahman apart from they setting partners to him Are in the vedic tradition Pretty consistent with what Allah describes himself to be muslims believe that every community on the face of the earth has received revelation And that people with time have corrupted them and this is the reason for example Why when muslims went to persia they considered People who are I I hate this word Magus in in a majus in arabic zora followers of zoroastrian I have a problem with pronouncing this guy's name. Okay, so the zoroastrians. Okay, majus or mages Uh, they consider them dimmies They consider them as good in the in the in the treatment of the country to them as christians and jews Yeah, I want to say these are all pejorative terms anyway, right? These are these are discriminatory pejorative terms whether it's dimmy whether it's the term that you just use whether it's not No, they're not i'll tell you why they are not so if you are for example, you're Let's say you are living in the in the uk. Okay Now there would be somebody who is tagged as a uk national He's a citizen of the uk or of germany or whatever and somebody who is an alien or a non-citizen Okay, so tagging somebody with a name that Signifies his status is not a problem. Now when you associate that name with a negative association This now becomes the problem the word dimmy a national a national has status and rights an alien has nothing Yeah, so but but but both are human beings But there's a hierarchical discrimination, right? Absolutely, but this hierarchical discrimination happens in the uk and the us as as good as any other place of the world Somebody who is Somebody who has your passport inside the country? So if I am an american I have an american passport inside the america I have More freedoms and more rights than somebody who does not have an american passport If I don't have an american passport and my visa expired i'm kicked out if I have an american passport I can stay so my my civil freedoms Why is the religion? Why is the religion assuming state like responsibility? I'm sorry, because that's what religion means. Okay, so so so let me complete this this thing So the word dimmy itself means somebody who has the vima of the muslim one the vima of the muslim one that it means But it's part of the honor of the muslim one to protect him And why is this the case? It is actually a term with a positive connotation actually not a negative one Because typically when people of another nation or another culture come to take the country of somebody else Then the original people of this country are really in a very inferior state. They have no rights whatsoever What dimmy means is that it in the hadith of the surah is that they have vima When he was talking about egyptians, for example, they have qaraba and vima They are related because One of them because hajar the the wife Of abraham was egyptian. So there is qaraba. There is they are kin and they have vima Because they are christians egyptians or christians at that time and when they are them and muslim's goals there He was talking about when muslims go to egypt. So take care of the christians of egypt because they have They have kin and they have them. We are supposed to protect them Okay, so the word dimma on its own Has a positive connotation now in the in the last 100 years or 150 years That people who have the original language their mother tongue english They do not understand or appreciate what the word dimma means Is actually doing injustice to the world Okay, now I wanted to refer to your own to your very first question, which was Can I can I just speak to that for a second? Sure. Thank you. Just a question though. Um, just two things because I get your point about hinduism and and the jewish Okay, yeah coherence, but I just in the living example of the prophet like we see we hear Obviously in the hadith where he was literally riding to the jews and he says That most of the time the jews say salam aleikah Right, which is death be upon you and he responds by saying you should say and to you back And then I just want to know like the the whole massacre of banu kuresa What do you have to say about that and interpersonal? Values in terms of the treatment of jewish people and their women and children being sold off into slavery Well, okay, it is a little bit outside of anything interpersonal because this was a state of war But uh, if you go to the historical war is between people ahmed and it becomes A religion that doesn't differentiate war war goes Goes to politics and goes to the state lebanaria and what was the situation on the ground that time Yes, but the minute it blurs the lines right it blurs the lines between war and suddenly you've got sex captives on your hands And therefore all lines of interpersonal relationships have therefore been blurred. So on that this we can proceed So the the lines there are this is a state of war The muslim community at its entirety was completely encircled by the the koraish pagan army that has collected from every corner of the arab peninsula And there was a coalition there was a signed treaty between the muslims and banu kuresa And banu kuresa had the backs of the muslims. So madina was a very fortified place. It had Very rough terrain from two sides And there was the ditch that the muslims actually Cut out from the ground from one side And from the fourth side the back of the muslims banu kuresa had their own forts and homes And banu kuresa vowed not to let the musli koon in And what happened is that banu kuresa made a secret treaty with the musli koon after they could not Go over the ditch that they would let them in And there was nobody in madina but muslim women and children And banu kuresa actually went and checked if there was any combatants inside madina or not And what would have transpired is is that if they had realized that every other muslim was at the side of the ditch Quraish would have entered from the back and slaughtered every single soul in madina And then went to the combatants and slaughtered them from the back So actually what happened is that banu kuresa specifically not Jews in general where They actually accepted arbitration They choose they chose their arbiter And they chose somebody from the muslims who used to be a historical ally to them And he is the one who actually gave the judgment that they should suffer the punishment of height reason which was death They accepted arbitration and this is this is this is history So we can actually go back to history and find that and those of banu kuresa Who were at that point who said who said no we do not accept the decision of our leaders And we are not going to commit height reason against the muslims with which we have assigned treaty Were pardoned by the prophet this guy had this position this guy had this mission that other guy had this position And they were pardoned and only people at the age of combat were punished This was a situation where stamp would have been completely eradicated from the face of the earth And I don't think that if this was any whether secular or religious group That the the the the the punishment would have been different actually banu kuresa had the opportunity to fight They were encircled after the muslims after the kuresh went away and their allies And they are the ones who accepted arbitration and they knew that whatever arbitration commands was going to be Executed. So anyway, this is also again a matter of international relations or State situations not very related to interpersonal. I'll give you a chance to respond Either david or nuria and then we got to go into the queue or we have to go into the closing statements and then the q&a Okay, uh, yeah, sure, um, no, ahmet exactly what what you were saying about about the jews as well though And you know, it's outside of the scope again. I feel like the scope is a very weird Narrow framework that we're working with okay, and I feel like it was done to kind of throw us a curveball on purpose What what do we do? I responded though? I responded anyway Yeah, yeah, no, I I understand I understand But as you were saying the we have moved very very much forward in society now like we've got the mandala prison rules We've got rules for how you treat prisoners of war. So yes checking the pubic hair of boys whether they should be killed or not According to the age of combatants that you said is something that you know Wherever there is law and order It would not happen today and where we do see crazy things like this happening It's usually at the hands of an islamist inspired group like boko haram or You know the likes of isis when they still kidnap Yazidi girls um So this is all still happening But it's just it's good as a society that we have moved past this the fact that you were mentioning these as if You know arbitration helped or the fact that there was you know, they agreed to it or only Guys above a certain age were killed is not doing any favors to the islamic course because this is meant to be A timeless eternal guideline mohammed's example The fact that mohammed had a hand to play in this these were his commandments That just negates the fact that he's a timeless example that all human beings should emanate He would be tried today in courts for war crimes against humanity on the basis of this story that you're recalling And again, we see this even if you don't want to just rely on the way that the quran as david mentioned earlier back and forth Talks about the christians and the jews let alone polytheists I don't know how you're making concessions for that when the biggest islam Sorry, the biggest sin in islam you could possibly do is shirk associating partners with Allah and that's typically what polytheists do Um, so they are considered the scum of the earth according to the quran the quran is filled with hate speech To all minorities and we see this representative in islamic countries when minorities have no None to little rights name me one muslim country. I like I said before that helps and accepts Minorities the only reason islam is pacified in the west is because it is subdued When it changes everything will change and sharia the law that is derived from the quran is testament to this But yeah, that's what i'd say david. Did you want to add Actually, I just want to answer something you said really quick about people being Trialed in high courts for crimes against humanity Because of the system that you like to defend which sounds like it's the western system So where's the crimes against the political leaders and the state leaders in generals that went through the middle east and corrupted Cause all this corruption and torture in iraqi prison systems And the torture of children that are that had nothing to do with the politics the high courts didn't do much there Nor did they target the right We don't have to waste time on this. It's it's purely what's aboutism. I'm not against it It is about you presenting something that is not reality. No, no, no, but what you're saying is not reality in this day and age Listen, listen, listen, let me just let me respond. You're those men that you're talking about those politicians You're talking about do not claim to be the last Messenger of god and to be followed for all time. They are fallible human beings and we can call them out for their behavior I will call out the next western politician any day. I don't have a dog in this fight But Muhammad by no stretch of the imagination is even on par of being somebody that we should emanate That's my point. This is the thing. So even those politicians in the west you take putin Who is a criminal, right? But people can find stories that make them look even worse Things that are outside of reality, but I'm not comparing prophet Muhammad to putin But all I'm saying like someone as bad as putin has stories that are worse about him And someone as good as prophet Muhammad's gonna even have more worse worse stories about him because he's such a good person There isn't a good person where they don't people make things up about him So and the things that you're taking from the hadith in in the way people thought back then, right? What we would consider maybe harsh and draconian at our time was the norm back then a and b So Islam isn't timeless. So Islam isn't eternal and timeless. Islam is timeless because the god that created this religion He knows the evolution that's gonna happen and and whatever we're going through nowadays. The Quran is still applicable Muhammad you can't have it both ways. Either they thought different and that was draconian or it's forever It should be happening now. You can't have it both ways It is happening. It is happening how Terrorist organizations with terrorist organizations. Yeah, you gotta jump into the you gotta jump into the closing I want to give you a chance to respond Muhammad. I do want to just because we're over the open dialogue I do want to give you a chance to respond But I think it's best if it's within the closing statement And then we'll go into the q&a after those closing So it'll be four minutes per team in particular two minutes per person or so Without we'll kick it over to both finding truth and Muhammad the floor is all yours first Okay, shall I start how many minutes do I have? It's two minutes per person Okay, so My opening statements my rebuttals on my discussions with David and the rear essentially revolved about one fact in terms of interpersonal conduct and interpersonal values the Quran has continued the tradition that has come through revelation to this human race from Allah through time to observe justice kindness generosity and to go away from obscenity shameful actions injustice and All bad deeds Islam is The last or one of the last traditions alive on the face of this earth Who ubiquitously commands its followers to be good not only to their To people who believe in their same religion But also to people who do not believe in their religion Whether they are living with them in their country or they are living In other countries. This has been exemplified in islamic history with Millions and billions of people converting to Islam just because they have dealt with Muslims on the personal level This has been exemplified by Jewish communities on the face of the earth only having The one place on the face of the earth for hundreds of years that jews can live In peace in a community that does not oppress them and run after them was in muslim states Christians in Christian places like Egypt for hundreds and hundreds of years for 600 years almost or 500 years Until today has a significant amount of people who are quite strong orthodox adherents to Christianity And this happens in not only in other places Muslims have great respect to their women and women have specific high status in the religion of islam I think it is a very solid case That islam has elevated people who were pagan tribal continuously in war People living in the middle of the desert having no place in the history of the world stage To people of the highest refined conduct that have not only led humanity through a great empire or a great nation But has also converted the rest of humanity or a great portion of the rest of humanity to the same ethical standard Just by exchanging on the human interpersonal Got it. Muhammad you got about a minute and a half left Okay, so just uh quickly summarize as a closing statement my opponents Conceded at the beginning when they said the Qur'an has uh positive values and good values It's actually filled with positive values and good values. There's six thousand over six thousand Verses in the Qur'an. They only wanted to concentrate on five which they Misinterpreted mist translated and they went down to a path which they're trying to label people terrorists because In their fake ideology in a fake reality that gets passed down to them as a lip service They're so happy with it and you're so content with it Which it isn't applicable to reality because whatever Lip service they give you about human rights and all that they themselves don't apply So they couldn't look they could they foresaw all the greatness that comes out of the Qur'an And they wanted to concentrate on the times when there is trouble Like people fighting you or there's people that are stepping over your rights and how to act in those Accordings to that right and how to defend the honor of God So when people are insulting God on how to treat those people But they didn't want to talk about the actual topic of the debate which was interpersonal conflict or interpersonal relationship It's how a person like not a state leader or or or people that we are not Or everyday life on how to Treat people in commerce in businesses on to how to write loan agreements on how to treat our families How to treat our neighbors how to treat people that come into our everyday life The Qur'an is full of wisdom when it comes to us. So Thank you for conceding the debate Thank you very much. We'll kick it over to david and norea um Fight those who do not believe in Allah in a book that claims to be perfectly clear in its commands. That is very very dangerous there was some talk about uh Demi's the meaning of the word demi having some positive comment connotations, this is the commentary of ibn kuthir Paying jizya is a sign of kufr and disgrace Allah said until they pay the jizya if they do not choose to embrace Islam With willing submission in defeat and subservience and feel themselves subdued Disgraced humiliated and belittled Christians and jews are to be disgraced humiliated and belittled That's according to ibn kuthir. That does not sound like a positive Meaning of our status and keep in mind. We have it better than others. We're people of the book So we actually have it better than you know, atheist or or hindus So Allah claims to be clear in his commands and he says things like fight those who do not believe and then the solution to this Is to go to earlier revelations that have been abrogated and say well, that's that's what Allah really means And the thing here is no muslim would accept this if the situations were reversed If if if some politician came out tomorrow and said Fight those who believe in Allah Muslims would rightly say what what in the world are you talking about if someone came out and said do not take muslims as friends muslims would rightly be outraged, but imagine them imagine them Objecting and saying how dare you say fight those who believe in Allah and imagine people saying oh, but you know If you go back to something earlier that this guy said years earlier, it's actually not not as bad No one would accept that as a response Allah's final marching orders Are to violently subjugate the world because of what people believe That is the only interpretation that makes it. This is not something that christians came up with This is not something that atheists came up with this is according to muslim interpreters Who are not reinterpreting the Quran to bring it in line with what they want to believe in the 21st century You got it norea anything Yeah, sure. Basically just as Ahmad was saying a sense of umma or the community or brotherhood It might seem like a positive hallmark one of the nice traits of the Quran, but it practically plays out as bigotry The Quran observes if muslims don't have this tight knit community They're ideal to have in a universal islamic state and transformation will never come true And the world will continue to reek of mischief without the umma and a sense of brotherhood muslims will not successfully face the forces that are Against islam the Quran says in surah al anfal 873 the unbelievers are protectors of one another Unless you do this protect each other. There will be tumult and oppression on earth and great mischief I need you all to understand that their constant striving and struggle in the cause of the islamic values and social change Is essential to their very criteria of their faith As david said islam has war against non-muslims Muhammad is accepting sex slaves and gifts such as maria the copped. He bought and sold slaves and slavery was also Progeny and slavery so the son of a slave would remain a slave. Muhammad did not change any of that There are not enough redeeming qualities to the Quran to negate all the oppression and misogyny And violence that it perpetuates. No minority is safe under the guidance of the Quran and sharia You got it. Thank you very much for that closing statement We're going to jump into the q&a. I want to say folks our guests are linked in the description If you haven't checked out their links you can open up An extra tab right now as you do not want to miss out on their content And even if you disagree with them, hey might be good to understand more of what you disagree with So this one coming in from do appreciate it teedak jordan says verse was or 60 verse 8 so sir 60 verse 8 says Allah does not forbid you from those who do not fight you because of religion And do not expel you from your homes from being righteous toward them and acting justly toward them Indeed Allah loves those who act justly I think that's for you david and maria All right Oh, I was just going to say we we've already we've already discussed that passage At length ahmet has given us his understanding and I've responded so maybe they posted that before we had that discussion. You've got it This one from deep drinks podcast says this debate is over with one verse Quran 40 verse 34 Let me pull that up in the meantime I'll read this next one deep drinks podcast also said naria is dropping bombs and thunderstorm I'm going to pull that verse, but I'm going to come back to it thunderstorm in the meantime said most of the muslim world Is a life of poverty and suffering You were better off with your ancient gods with beautiful kingdoms and cities any thoughts Yeah, if kingdoms and cities Made anything Good or bad then why did christianity come to the roman empire the roman empire had big cities and everything We are not here to live this world into great cities and homes We are here to live this world in a righteous way and either deserve paradise or hell fire This is this this is this what I would expect would be my answer and that of david would also but Religion is something different from living in a big palace and and having no values Even though Muhammad would get most of the booty of it anyway. Yeah, just to add on to that It's uh, like islam the one of the verses is god created us to work So he's testing us who's the best of us as workers So we we're not here to enjoy our time and we're here to make the world a better place And it's not about the things that we have it's what we're doing with the things we have So when it comes to a christian value where it's we're in this world We're in this world. We're not off We're not off this world. We're in this world to make it better. That's literally what islam is So it goes back to the verse in the Quran when it says like do you debate us or do you argue us argue To us about god when we have our actions and you have your actions We believe what brought what was brought down to us. We believe what you have but we're loyal to god So that's why we're submitters. We're completely as loyal as we can to be god So that's not about the stuff that we get. It's about our relationship with our creator He has all the world like he makes our world a better place Muhammad, could I ask you a question on that? Have you Have you read the hadith which says you don't you talk about the best of people and and muslims of their job as workers Uh, the the sabochari 4557 which says you true muslims are the best of people's ever raised up for mankind Means the best of people's for the people as you bring them with chains on their necks till they embrace islam Well that kind of goes against to what was I was saying So to me, I'm not I'm not a person that takes these hadith as something that it's applicable to all times The Quran is applicable to all times the hadith has its place So there's yes during wartime when I'm doing the actions In awareness of god and then I'm fighting of people that are hurting me at that point the best action that I can do Is fight. So yeah, I'll bring them to chains and pull them down and put them down if they're trying to Extinguish the light of god. So it's for you. You're twisting it. It's not about me going and attacking In Allah, Allah, you have been more that he doesn't like those that transgress But if you transgress against me the wisdom and the action of the time is to fight back So I'm gonna take I'm gonna fight. However, you're fighting me. I don't understand where the problem is that So if like the americans fight or the western people fight, they're not terrorist When we fight back now, we're terrorist Then you say the opposite like of course, I'm not going to initiate the greeting obviously following your prophet sunnah, right? He didn't initiate the greeting and you said of course I wouldn't why would I wait for them to greet me? So how in all of this are you muslims the better people or the bigger people? How are you promoting good interpersonal values when you can't even summon up the The cheek to say oh assalamu alaikum to somebody that doesn't believe in your religion. Are you that petty? I give you a chance to respond Muhammad and then we've got to go to the next question Oh, yeah One second. I well one second. I just wanted to for Muhammad's going to respond to kind of There's there's an additional part to that. It's not just don't greet people Until they greet you first It's forced them to the narrowest part of the road as well. So you're walking down the street And this this wouldn't be this wouldn't be everywhere in the world But let's say in a in a place that's dominated by muslims You're walking down the street a jew or a christian is walking Past you you force him to a certain part of the road before you greet him So you're you're actively mistreating and persecuting him because of his beliefs And then seeing if he greets you and so I just just wanted it looks like nerdy I wanted you to what what is your thoughts on that? So so what okay based on what you just said? What's what's your interpretation when God says do not debate with the people of the book except with what you can find As best like so don't hate and do not like say negative things and bad things to them unless they oppress you So you're taking to maybe specific events where it is applicable if me and you are fighting, right? I'm more loyal to your god. So your god is my god. There is only one god We're trying to get closer to that god the god of Abraham So if you're showing this loyalty and you're saying insultive stuff about god and me and you started to fight At that point, I'm not even going to put you in the corner of the road I'm going to make sure you don't even get close to me not in physical ways But I'm going to I'm going to try to abuse you because you're trying to abuse what what god told you not to do You're breaking your own religion at that point It's a sense of loyalty and this is what the world is about If you're not loyalty the country that you're living in and you're showing Like ways to to hurt the people around you. They're going to jail you Got to jump to the next one. This one coming in. Well, that's right So this one came in earlier from deep drinks podcast says this debate is over with one verse koran 434 it's actually a little bit harder for me compared to looking up like new testament or old testament verses I think this is the verse that corresponds with 434 434 434 is is is the verse that says That if you're if you fear different translations will say, you know rebellion or something like that from your wife, then you first warn her And then if that doesn't work again, assuming that this is escalating You warn her banish her to beds apart and then beat her let's see The the way I've been this is hard for me because it's it says really long It's like a whole paragraph Which is why I'm but I've checked multiple websites to be sure that I've got the right one But let's let's take it on what David had said Muhammad in finding truth I want to give you guys a chance to respond since David already spoke Yeah, so Just a little comment It is not consensus with Muslims that you do not return the salam to an un-Muslim Actually, Ibn Masood Abu Darda'a, Abu Umamma and Omar Al-Adlaziz the famous caliph had no issue with it It's probably contextual because Jews in Medina at a point of time were twisting the words of salam making it Sam Which means death? So probably the context was don't start until you listen to what the kind of salam that is throwing at you So that there is no animosity but later when Islam was established And Muslims and Christians became part of the community There are other Adilla and other Ahadith that says that there is no issues with and the Actually the actual doing of prominent Sahaba like Ibn Masood. They had no issue with it So this is just to close that other point now Surah 4 ayah 34 is talking about treatment Of wives actually so Yeah, so Okay, so if you if you compare that to I don't know western secular standard, you will have an issue If David compares it to his own religion, I'm not sure if he will have an issue or not If there was a Jew sitting here comparing it to his own religion I'm not sure he will have an issue or not. But anyway, the Islamic concept is that The family is a unit the family solves its issues inside the family There are specific authorities giving given to the The wife and the husband In terms of dealing with the internal issues of the family However, it is not like for example, not really I said that the right for example to make divorce is unilateral If a woman does not like her husband She can actually seek divorce if the husband does not like to give divorce She can actually seek khula and get out of the family Is it true that in the Quran in that specific ayah, there is a hierarchy or there is a step by step Way to deal with disobedience in the family from the part of the life towards the husband Yes, it is true. The three steps that are described in the Quran are in the Quran. I cannot be Honest and say no, they are not or reinterpret them. I don't like this way However, I can tell you How the prophet the grand interpreter or commentator of the Quran Handled this verse the prophet himself at a point of time Before the ayah came down prohibited hitting of wives all together And then a specific incident happened and then this ayah came down And the prophet sunnah is that if he wants to punish he will poke with a suwek As a way to explain that it has it has gone beyond reason or beyond Being able to talk about it When things went completely out of line the prophet would actually Not talk to his women. It has not been recorded at any point of time that he has hit it with his women So this is my comment on that. Yeah Thank you very much. This one coming in from Okay, I'm sorry. Can I respond to that or do we not have time if it's really short and pithy because you've got Really really quick. Uh, Ahmed the the khulla is a later development that we see in countries like tinezia pakistan all of this It doesn't come directly out of the islamic scripture And second of all what you're trying to make excuses for in gloss over Is the fact that the quran enshrines domestic violence, whether there's a hierarchy or not The miswark thing that you talked about is literally how Like depraved this is because they talk about the same miswark that they would use to tame chattel And animals with is the same thing that they'd used to beat their wives Then there's a difference between the stipulation to beat your wives differently from how you'd beat your sex slaves as well So, um, essentially the prophet had so many instances when he could have changed this or repudiate a white beta But he didn't know you're welcome. I miss what is that to give you a super pithy response That's what I really miss what's the next one Yes, yeah, exactly the thing is a toothbrush. It's like it's like this pencil. Okay. It is not a hitting It's not a hitting tool. Yes But the the yes, but the branches of the miswak, which is made of a twig that they clean their teeth with bedowins Right is also what they would use on a scale to whip their chattel. I don't know if you've read this No, but they would miswak miswak is only used for brushing teeth. It's not used for anything else You know what I'm talking about. What's miss? I know I know where does it come from? It's a bar Yeah, it is it miss wack when it's when it's When you use the word miss wack you mean a toothbrush if you want to to refer to the To the twig you say a rock, which is the name of the tree. You don't say miss. I stand corrected So yeah, but the domestic violence remains the the the word might be different. Sorry, but the domestic violence remains The the the the little the little toothbrush interpretation makes no sense We read Sahil Bukhari and we see a woman being beaten until her skin turned green The idea that you know, this is just a little uh, little tap with a toothbrush to to show that things have gone too far Um, doesn't seem to fit some of the descriptions of how severe these beatings were And Omar ibn Qab said the prophet said to not ask a man why he beats his wife And screams will hurt from over Omar's house. So I guess it's more than a toothbrush. But yeah, sorry. Go ahead James No, probably I'm only this one coming in from to appreciate your question Seville says funny how a christian's best friend is an atheist. How do you like that? It's all david norea is your best friend No, we're we're not we're not we're not best friends, but yet we we're we're friends and the the fact of the matter is We're We're on the same side of this issue this this This book calls for the violent subjugation or execution of christians Jews atheists Hindus yzidis zoroastrians across the board. So I mean if we're talking about What this What this book teaches as far as we're concerned. We're all in this. I mean, we're we're all in the same boat here We're on the we're on the same side And this book as well is empty because there's nothing in the Quran for women So if the common denominator is that book david and I definitely are on the same side until it calls for Yeah, things against us. Yeah, that's why we are good But that book says that those who allow it this believers non-believers they are them So you are lying with an atheist. It's just proving that you're an atheist Yeah, but that that's that's an islamic claim If you if your friends by the way, thank you for admitting that it means friends By the way, uh, it notice notice if that's your that's your book So notice notice the interpreter if you take An atheist as an ally that means you're an atheist So if uh, Muhammad just admitted that if he takes anyone else as an ally In any situation here here's something I agree with this person on then that person is now Some other system of belief. So notice if I uh, I noticed that on Ahmed's channel He talks about um, a lot of scientific issues and I've already invited him on imagine I invite Ahmed on and I say hey, why don't we talk about Scientific evidence for the existence of god, we'd be allies improving the existence of god, but according to you Of course it is if we are Allyship In the in the sense in the sense that you just applied to me and me and Nuria we disagree on a lot of things We agree on we agree on this you've said that makes us allies. Well, guess what me and me and and Notice if I did that with if I did if I took uh, Ahmed as And as part of an alliance and hey, we're going to defend the existence of god That would make him a christian according to you then notice you you're You're pointing out some of the problems with with your book here It's not about pointing problems with my books if he allies with you and he takes you as an ally to go Fight against disbelievers and atheists even by words and That point he's still in line But if you're gonna go with someone who denies your god and denies your lord and and at that point How are you showing loyalty to lord because me and amin we're doing this in the name of god Who are you doing this in the name of who? Because you're going with someone who completely disregards the fact that god exists and that there's a day of judgment When I give And your your your you gotta go. Yeah your your book calls for our violent subjugation I mean if there were if if Nuria and I were in the same building and it were on fire And it's burning up. We would probably try to help each other get out of there Why we're we're all human beings it wouldn't be oh you're an atheist I can't help you because then I'd be an ally if we're helping if we're trying to get out of this flaming building or something like that But I would help you too So you see you're putting things that are incorrect because if you save an innocent soul, it's like you save the whole world Well, we're innocent now. Awesome I hate to do this, but just because the original super chat was meant to uh Indite david for being friends with Nuria. I gotta give him the last word this one from coffee mom says Can you advocate for islam and not be a misogynist? I have a feeling that was kind of rhetorical, but we give you a chance to respond Yeah, I can advocate for islam and not be a misogynist of course. I I can do it at least Or I can die trying No, you can't you will not die trying because if you have this discussion with me, it's just a different paradigm Islam like christianity like judeism like hinduism like all revolutions coming from god puts a specific hierarchy in the management of society This one coming in the only the only thing is that secular world that has put all the controls at the level of the government. It is unnatural You got it this one from dashia Hewitt, let me know if I pronounce it right says it's a reason why it was called pre islamic Judaism and christianity was in arabia first You can't tell me they didn't influence islam when we can see it for ourselves Yeah, I don't know. I don't know who that's I don't know who that's Did at uh, I would say I would say indisputably there were all kinds of things and you know our friends can respond here But um, oh, excuse me. I don't want to call you friends because I might wait. No, okay Ah, man, I could call you a friend because really I don't know it I don't know if that would throw throw muhammad off, but uh, uh Yeah, so I mean islam really looks like just like a collection of the things that were circulating around muhammad during his time So you had you had jewish monotheism there. You had all sorts of teachings about Jesus and mary and so on circulating in arabia. You had Various beliefs about the kaba and the rights that were performed there. You had you had Even teachings about, you know, horis and paradise and so on islam looks like everything was just collected into a big ball and And claimed to be from a prophet This one coming in from do appreciate your question Samir farsain says norea. You are wrong islam does Not say not to greet non muslims Quran 4 96 says do not say to those who greet you You are not muslim So are you lying for your cause? You just Used, uh, let me know if you pronounce this right. Takia Muslim I can't I can't I can't tell if this is if this is a joke or not when when we when we talk about when we when we When when she brings up the statement Um, do not greet the people do not give the people of the book the greeting first force them to the nearest part of the That's a quote from muhammad. That's a quote. That's a quote from muhammad So if if we're if we're making it up if norea is making it up if this was a serious claim and not a joke then Then the claim would be that norea actually has a time machine She went back in time and served this into the muslim sources on the on the lips of muhammad and that it's uh, it's all a lie Yep, and there's also a funny story. I think it's umar ibn khadab son actually said uh Asalaamu alaikum to a jew and then realizes that he shouldn't have and he runs back and says give me my greeting back So that's how seriously they take this the accidentally greeted a jew Yeah Do you guys this one coming in from do appreciate it sarah reyney says can a muslim love a non muslim from their heart Well, yeah, i i don't i don't think there is an issue there actually i have quoted to uh to david during our conversation that It is a prediction of the quran that muslims and christians specifically christians who identify as christians not christians who are christians in the birth certificate or something people like david who identify as christians um are destined to Have greater relations with muslims and on the individual level the level this should be the case Going back to the question about islam and judeism. Sorry judeism and christianity being in arabia islam considers itself part of a continuum that started Uh from adam and then to abraham and then to moses and then to jesus. So islam does not see itself as a distinct Star in a conservation it sees itself in a continuum And all of those prophets are prophets of the same religion. It's the religion of Allah. Allah is in arabic The name of god an egyptian christians for example and christians who are of the arabic tongue call Allah Their god too So there is no there is no there is no distinction per se muslims and non muslims At a point of time the prophet asked the muslims to go to abyssinia Ethiopia now To enjoy a peaceful life under the reign of a king who was a christian just king And i don't think any of the muslims who went there hated the man for for for giving offering them protection Do you got it? Thank you very much for this question. Some of your far saying says Wali w a l e e quote unquote means someone who can act on your behalf and protect you a la said Allah is the malah It's m a w a malah of believers Did non muslims protect Uighur and syrians and sudan sudanis and Mayan marians I say that right Mayan marians. Thank you says a la was right after all Yeah, so so the the claim here is that um So Wali so aliyah we're talking about that earlier So the claim here is that it it refers to someone who can act on on your behalf and protect you and you know from our earlier discussion There are the aliyah of Allah. So these would be people Acting on behalf of Allah and protecting him. And so the the the response here is that ah Are non muslims protecting the the Uighurs who are who are being persecuted in china Well, following that reasoning, I mean muslims aren't protecting them either What are muslims? So you have muslims who are speaking out Against how Uighurs are being persecuted but but so are so are non muslims. I made multiple videos condemning the treatment of Uighur muslims um in china But there there is this ongoing problem By the way notice if you take this seriously. So look at what this person is saying this person is saying um Look Uighurs are being uh mistreated and abused by Uh by chinese communists. Therefore aliyah is right. Do not take Um jews and christians, which that's not who's doing that over there Don't take jews and christians as your uh aliyah But I mean I mean think about that. I mean if if I if I were to see if I were to see um Ahmed walking down the street and I would just say hey, you know, I'm gonna go fight ahmed because Something guess what? People are going to protect him right police are going to protect him and that and that's that's one of the scary implications of this verse don't take jews are christians as Uh protectors someone who can protect you like what police officers like uh politicians paramedics Don't take jews and christians as they because you know, they'd be in a position to protect you doesn't seem like good Interpersonal relations finish the verse This one coming in from some of your far sain strikes again He's got your number david. He says david Look at the camera with a straight face and repeat after me quote unquote I didn't just brush the violence of christianity under the rug and misquote islam I don't recall talking about christianity. So nothing to do with What are you talking about? So I didn't just I didn't just brush The violence of christianity under the rug because I wasn't talking about it. So This one from upside down guy says Do you think muslims? Hmm Did or would do 9 11 as told I don't know if they mean like what proportion of muslims on the planet would I guess that's what that's my best guess of what they mean I mean, I'd like to posit to ahmed and muhammad the fact that any perpetrators of 9 11 would claim to be inspired or Potentially be inspired by the quran. I think there's a problem there to unpack but over to you guys Well, it's gotta be first prove it was like a muslims that were perpetuating and made september 11 And it wasn't the u.s. Government. So it's okay if Okay, well, we're gonna go into muslim conspiracies right now Osama bin laden when he was hiding up in the mountains He openly said we are going to declare war on america and why is that obviously? He had his own reasons with Saudi Arabia, but it all comes down to the kufar versus the muslim. Am I correct? But i'm talking about september 11. I'm not talking about what was i'm i've been lying inside because there's videos saying that Osama bin laden saying that we're not responsible for september 11, but it's okay. You cherry pick what you want Oh, and yeah, okay, and you bury your head in the sound and you know You think your book gives amazing interpersonal conduct when people can use that to fly into buildings, but sure This one was americans flying into buildings. So I don't know when you're talking about coffee mom says Can they address the relationships between men and women? Um, I I want to respond to the matter of the 9 11 I don't think there is anything anywhere in the sunnah or the quran that commands any muslim on the face of the earth To commit something like night 11 regardless if muslims eat it or not. This is irrelevant The question is would they do it again? So let's say they didn't or they didn't do it before it's irrelevant There is nothing in the sunnah and or the quran that tells muslims to go and blow up Building that is used for civilian use it has it has no reference whatsoever Anyway, are you are you expecting the quran to say on september 9th? Please hijack two planes This was not the quest. This was not the question. I think the question was whether I think the question was whether this action is acceptable or not today To is the islamic doctor and it is not acceptable It is because they they they had to they had to deal with this issue when the issue came up of whether it's appropriate to use catapults in fighting knowing that the catapults could hit people who weren't fighting and so on and muslims declared that it that it was acceptable but uh, but I mean the the the justification that was presented by al qaeda is that if If people are making mischief in muslim lands, that's a death penalty according to surah 5 verse 33 of the quran But in islam the people who fund or make it possible to Wage war in a muslim land are equally responsible that goes back to muhammad who said that it's not just the the jihad warrior Who gets a reward for what he's done? It's the person who's funded him to do that and so the reasoning of al qaeda Is that the united states military is making mischief in muslim lands? But who's making who makes it possible for the u.s. Military to make mischief the american taxpayer and that what that's why it's perfectly acceptable to Just uh to do things like 9 11. So i i would just i know i know you're going to disagree with the interpretation. My only point is They seem to have a point there as far as they're Reconciling that with islamic teachings In two sentences catapults are used to encircle or to Conquer fortresses typically or fortifications around cities. So the context is different This is number one and number two when muslims were fighting the romans for example And they went after defeating the roman army or within they did not attack the population that was paying taxes to the roman army Paying taxes to your enemy does not make you part of your enemy This one coming in from do appreciate your question I want to remind you folks our guests are linked in the description So you can always check those out the muslim apologist says the guy Let's see. That's weird. See the brothers. You are doing a This is a different one says brothers. You're doing a great job Contact me after the debate in particular they're referring to you of course mohammed and fighting truth This one coming in from do appreciate it. Yes 1002 says theis. Are you only good? So you can get to go to heaven Can you repeat that again? They say theis Those of you who believe in a god, are you only good because you want to get into heaven? Um, so so that would apply to three of us here. I'll go. Yeah. Yeah, of course. Yeah, no me me. No I try I try to do the right thing because There is a right thing to do but um if god told because There are atheists who use this as an accusation and say ah in in religion. You're only being good because you think it's going to get you points Later that that's that's not that's not my moral view I believe in a combination of divine command theory natural law and virtue ethics But if the almighty came to me right now and said david, sorry You're you're not going to heaven under any circumstances. I'd still try to do the right thing because it's the right thing You got it anybody else? Yeah, my answer my answer would be no and yes Uh, so, uh, I would like to do the right thing those right things typically make you happy But yes, because you will not have an exclusive set of independently verified things that are right without a reference And you get to choose your reference. So david chooses christianity. I choose islam Maybe something in islam or versus judism or christianity or hinduism Is right in islam and wrong somewhere else or wrong in islam and right somewhere else I would not for example put money in the in the bank and take fixed interest. It is a crime in islam Uh, because it causes specific Back lashes to society So the answer is there is no specific definite way to be Good unless with a reference and religious people use religion as their reference So the answer would be yes. If you look at this perspective In my uh, yeah, also just to add on to it from another For me, it's it's not about the reward at the end. It's like me as a human being. I'm a social person I I like experiences of love affection and being close to somebody and nobody can fill that Requirement other than god. It's my relationship with god is that what drives me to do good to other people Because it just rewards me with such a positive and fulfilling feeling and you could find that in all the religion And that's all the religion is preaching you because it's not about your reward at the end The reward is technically still being in god's grace. That is my heaven Is the fact that I can speak to god without having like, uh, you know Like debating myself in regards to certain topics and in show in the love that I have for my god It's it's not thinking compare like my my biggest fear is losing that relationship It's like god is telling you don't drink so but okay Maybe alcohol looks like fun for a little bit But then I have a fear that you know What if god like that relationship and that love towards god starts to go away and then at that point I'll feel empty because I know how it felt to be empty before and I don't want to have that feeling ever again My like I love my mom But it doesn't compare to that relationship with someone who's always there with me and whatever bad is happening It's because of my own direct input or someone else's input and god is there to save me when I need it So I don't know why these debates like take so long, but it's it's literally it's like the best relationship You can ever have with anybody It starts with god. So that's why I'm a you got it. It's not Thank you very much for this question as well here as Palmer says Will the muslims debaters ever marry a nine-year-old or would they if they were unmarried right now If you're married right now Would he go to japan and marry a 13-year-old because that's the age of consent in japan At least as well is all i'm saying Well, my comment is that Marriage in islam is not related to age marriage in islam is related to puberty And this has been the universal law regardless muslims or not even christians or jews or whoever Women and men should not marry before they reach the age of puberty It is not it is false that islam does not have an age barrier towards marriage It is a natural barrier. It is naturally not connected to age age of puberty can be 15 can be 9 can be 20 I don't know. It doesn't matter. It doesn't make a difference It's liberty that makes somebody can marry or not We might need to discuss or a 65 verse 4 at some point and because not just because we'd be misunderstanding it But because I mean given what you just said ibn kathir ibn abbas the two jalals even 20th century muslim scholars like maldudi right up into The popular dais like muhammad hijab interpret interpret sort of 65 verse 4 As referring to marrying and divorcing prepubescent girls David let's cut this short. How old was isaac's life in the bible? uh, it doesn't doesn't doesn't say but she was she was certainly old enough to No, no, no, take care of 10 camels. No, it doesn't work. It's very clear how old neko is Oh, yeah, good. Yeah chapter and verse No, no, no, it's very clear if you look at chapter and verse three years old Chapter and verse I will bow down and recite the shahada if you show me she was three years old You said the chapter about the gospel and we showed you plenty of you showed me zero You showed me never you'll never show me one verse and now you're just lying Chapter and verse. It's very simple chapter such and such verse such and such There is enough. I will recite. I will bow down and reshut and recite the shahada If the moon split Chapter and verse prove me lying prove me lying Crap prove prove me lying chapter and verse. It's not about chapter and verse the bible is very clear on how we're back Let's see it. Let's see it. Give us give us the verse I I I agree but note. She's repeatedly called. She's repeatedly called. She's repeatedly called young woman Do you think three year olds are young women? This is what no notice that notice and you're pulling commentaries out of your your head and whatever you Like comment that's what the text says and calls her it calls her a young woman And says three years old watered. She watered She watered 10 camels a three-year-old I have a four-year-old who couldn't water one camel notice the principal ladies and gentlemen because there's always a principal If you tell this the principal is long if you the principal is If you if you tell the truth about our prophet by quoting our sources will lie about your prophets And these are from people who claim to respect Abraham and Isaac lying about Abraham and Isaac saying that Abraham sent someone to get a three-year-old daughter notice It's Muhammad Muhammad married and had sex with a little girl and then in response We'll say all the prophets did all these horrible things. What devout muslims. We are welcome to slump This one I'll give you a chance. I need to have I need to have uh I need to have a a little comment Islamic belief believes that The rules that relate to marriage And that puberty is a condition for marriage is an ancient rule. So I don't think any prophet of Christianity or Judaism Had sex with a girl before puberty This is something that is universally prohibited Ahmad could you quote us where the prohibition exists where it says that that puberty is a prerequisite to marriage? Yeah, and I'm actually happy to have a different separate debate about this But when you look for example to surah and nisa There is no, uh, it says thank you Is different from enough Okay, nisa means a woman and a woman is different from a girl in english A woman means somebody who can be designated as good for marriage You don't call a little girl a woman woman means somebody who has been who has gone past puberty So what does it mean when it was those who have not yet menstruated? Who is that referring to exactly? If you are referring to surah at talaq ayah number four. So when I when I When I studied jurisprudence, okay? You know, there can be a medical condition Where a woman Never gets the cycle. Okay. This does not prevent a woman from getting married at all So the islamic jurists put the age of 15 If somebody is not does not reach the age of puberty in a natural way He becomes a full citizen at the age of 15 Which makes him capable of doing Whatever an adult can do this includes marriage. This includes control to his property And other things so being for example accountable against a judge, etc And so if a woman for example is married at the age of let's say 20 But she never got her cycle because of a medical condition And now this surah is talking about qalaq about divorce. She needs to have her months of clearance So since she doesn't have period anyway, okay, then you will just count three lunar months Now some jurists, I don't know. What is the reference if they are putting this out of their head or what Are saying that this relates to if they if somebody and I probably there is somebody who would who would say that That this relates to somebody a girl who is married and she did not reach yet The age of ministration and hence so-and-so Please prove to me in the first place that a girl can get married before puberty. This is unheard of in islam It's it's it's completely false aisha To mohammed aisha. I saw there is a difference between signing a contract and Consumption, okay If you if you in any way if you in any way regardless you have reached the age of puberty or not If the marriage is not consummated then the matter of counting the months is out of the way in old cases So you count the months of ida only if consummation happens Ahmed I hate that that's correct. But yeah, it gives it gives the ida specifically for the girl who's not reached puberty So this presupposes that the marriage was consummated with a girl before she reached puberty again This is ibn abbas. This is ibn kathir. This is the two jalals. This is mohdudi. This is even I mean mohammed hijab stood there speakers corner. I mean keep in mind I would love for him to be wrong because this is Thank you. Oh good. Good god. I'm glad I I think he's right, but I I hope you're right and I hope you'll I really hope I'd like I would actually like and I would share if if you make a video Explaining why that interpretation is wrong because at the end of the day, even though we're even though we're criticizing islam We are talking about actual people and I would I would like it if people didn't believe it was okay So the reason the reason i'm saying is wrong is that this aya is referring to divorce Now if you want to see the criteria and the constraints of marriage go to the aya that talk about marriage Aya that talk about marriage talk about nisa nisa is women. There is no girl getting married It's not there simply you cannot get married before consummate your marriage before you have reached puberty as a woman You cannot have sex with a woman who did not reach Puberty otherwise she is not defined as a woman in the first place She remains a girl and marrying girls and consummating the marriage with a girl who did not reach puberty is not Permissible, but but but 654 specifically refers to Women who have not reached the age of menstruation. So it's clearly using it in a broader sense that that doesn't refer to post being You know post post puberty. Yeah, what what i'm saying here is that what the explanation of the aya at least from how I I studied the aya is that it is referring to people who did not mean straight But since they were married married They have at least reached the legal from the islamic perspective age age of marriage Which if not by reaching menstruation in their cases then would be by reaching the age of 15 for example Or an age where okay, this is an adult If somebody if a woman let's let's look from the woman's perspective If a woman has a medical condition where she does not menstruate all together Her her ovaries are not working or her Genital system is not working is she prohibited to marry for the rest of her life She can marry if that if that's what that referred to but again, uh, I mean In the commentaries this actually referred to people Who are specifically asking Muhammad about the divorcing divorcing women who who Who didn't have a monthly cycle and one of them was specifically asking what about girls who are too young What about girls who are too young to have a monthly menstrual cycle? And that's what the Quran verse was was responding to so it's it didn't sound like it was responding to A medical condition, uh, the commentary specifically referred to someone who's too young to have a to have a monthly cycle so so As I was said, even if you look at that aya and look at the beginning of aya It says well, Ia islamina l-mahidi min nisa equal and those who have so it's talking about min nisa equal those who have Uh went into despair of your women Something I mean in ethical of your females or of your girls. They say of nisa equal Nisa means women and women a woman is a female that has it that's an adult Yeah, but it's it's it's it's the it's the need It's it's the women who have not yet reached puberty. So that that's the point. It sounds like it's talking about it It sounds like it's sounds like it's talking about a broader category if it's women who haven't reached puberty And again, the Muslim commentator says talking about someone who's who's too young for for a monthly menstrual cycle So the point is it doesn't sound like it's talking about only like adult women The the point is it doesn't say the women that did not reach puberty. It says the women that did not minister it Well, that's it. Well, I will I'm young Those who have not ministered So it is possible, you know, for and this is all different possibilities So you have a woman that did minister it and did not reach monopause yet A woman that did minister it and reach monopause and the woman that never had ministeral cycle For example for a medical condition No, but I hold it all the way yet even yet implies that they are going to have it in the near future It comes under the umbrella that david was talking about when all of the tafsirs mentioned prepubescent I mean either Allah is a terrible communicator if you can't specify When in a condition you're giving a very very narrow Like just a scapegoat to say it's it's people with a medical condition Allah could have said that but to leave the umbrella open like this to say those who have not yet menstruated Is that not very very bad foresight on Allah's part? If that means that people in Afghanistan will be selling and marrying six year olds And they are quoting the Sunnah of the prophet when they are doing so I'll give you his response and we have to go to the next one It is not permissible It is not permissible in Islam to marry and consummate marriage with a little girl who is six or eight or nine If she has not reached if she has He was wrong. Yeah, you got to go this one coming up from Samir says asala muwala Mulaikam is a promise of peace before being greeting So if you harm a person after that promise you're a traitor islam says to keep that promise I think he's referring to the matter of of not starting with salam with somebody else who is not a muslim and Um, I think he is referring to the context here one way or the other. So at a point of time People of the book in medina were having special behavior of animosity that they even started saying salam in a twisted way That main death instead of salam So I think and I have already explained that the the doctrine of salam in the typical Normal conditions is that muslims give salam to everybody You got it this one coming other than combatants But also Muhammad breaks treaties all the time. So I don't think breaking a promise is a big deal. Anyway Never happened. We can have a debate about war in islam Muslim apologists says one of the non muslims here is an atheist pretending to be a christian How do you like them apples david? Yeah, yeah, that's what it's uh, we've talked me and ap have talked about this before it's like the in thing Um, like they'll they'll they'll say i'm actually an undercover atheist Pretending to be a christian to mislead people But then they'll talk about ap and say he's actually an undercover christian pretending to be an atheist to deceive people So the uh, yeah, it's just whatever you claim to be the you know guys like mensh. That's who that is Like to say aha, he's actually the something different from what he claims to be just so they can try to You know discredit anything any points we're we're bringing up, but yeah Sammy veda says and then folks we we can't take any more questions We're just going to read the rest the ones that we have and then we're going to wrap up But this one semi veda says quote unquote worst of creatures 98 verse six islam commands a supremacist mindset Muhammad agrees and justified it multiple times as they are fighting for the true god Is this a question? It's more of a statement. I think that They're just saying islam has a supremacist mindset is the accusation No, I don't think islam has a mandate of relaying the truth to people And that's what it what just wants to do just like christianity and just like judizm wanted to do at this time This one from seven until today Says david is the trinity the father In parentheses you the son and in parentheses apostate prophet and the holy spirit norea No, thanks This one from bitter truth says chronic text. Do you think it's special and don't you think it was muhammad text? As a muslim as somebody who is very conversant with the formal and spoken arabic language I can tell you that it's impossible that the quran is narrated by human being This one from yes one zero zero two says david i'm sorry I meant those two, but great answer I can't remember which they had one earlier on but They give a thumbs up samir far sain says david if islam said god had a baby. Would you attack it? what That reminds me of the william lane craig debate when They asked william lane craig if he'd prefer to be a muslim baby or atheist baby bitter truth says muhammad. Do you support child marriage? g e So I think I don't support my child marriages My personal Like view on on my religion is that just like how the jews and the christians They started to add some things later on that aren't part of the religion that kind of diluted people out of the way People's reverence to certain hadith isn't correct So sahih bukhari is sahih in the sense that the senate is correct So like the witnesses are correct But the context doesn't mean that it's all necessarily that has to be taken with and not everyone is taking everything That's in the sahih so for us It's the quran is the first and quran is the trump right and and the the narrations about aisha's age There is some narrations that should say when she was playing with toys is when a certain verse came down Which would make her around eight years old and this is before they even immigrated to to abasenia So so it's just like how certain things can be twisted to show a really bad image of muhammad Certain things can also be twisted to show a really good image or whatever the person is trying to sell But when it comes to that the orhan you don't have those those Those misinterpretation and those issues. So when it comes to child marriages, it's it's very clear that that it's that's that a You're like oppressing somebody you're going against what god has given you And that's not something that's permissible. So and just to answer nary on a point. She was making earlier When god said like those that didn't Menstruate and it sounds like he's saying yet because god is saying the truth. It's not lack of communication. It's ultimate communication so he's uh He's saying it in a sense that they haven't menstruated but some of them might menstruate later So there are women where their menstruation is either really late or the fact that they couldn't have kids and all of a sudden They were able to have kids. So it's also covering that that truth and god is speaking the complete truth in the orhan I hope that clears some of the issues So just answering the question. It is not up to muhammad or to me to support child marriage I have just said something very simple and very clear Until a woman until a female is identified as a woman Unless there is a medical condition that you cannot get married Now france in april 2021 changed the age of such of consent related to sex to 15 Maybe it's still 18 in some places Is this child marriage from the perspective? For example of germans or suites Islam has a very simple criteria that relates to the biology of the human being puberty You can marry before puberty. You cannot very simply You got it. Thank you very much for this question. This is coming in from bitter truth says finding But sahi al-bakari says aisha was watching ethiopian show She hasn't reached her puberty age. It's clear muhammad married with child Finding truth. Why aren't you admitting this they say? I don't know if watching an ethiopian show makes you Before or be or after puberty. I think it's completely Which is just I don't know There's a there's a passage in bukhari which says that aisha hadn't reached puberty in that so I think the I think you guys would read it and say she must not have been married yet or something like that like she was watching that before She was married, but it says muhammad was like shielding shielding her with his uh With his garment or something like that. So it sounds like they were together, but um I'm it said it says she hadn't reached puberty And so I'm assuming you guys would say then that was sometime before they were They had consummated the marriage or something like that You've got to this one. I appreciate it muslim. Apologist says rebecca was three years old when she married isaac. David Why are you upset? I think that was covered Zagros oscan says is my This is so funny you get the you get this you get this narration where um abraham sends his servant to get um a wife for Isaac goes and she's she's she's out doing her chores and taking care of uh taking care of animals and so on And then this guy shows up with 10 camels and she says hey I'll water all these camels for you which those those things can drink dozens of gallons of water each And it says she waters them all repeatedly repeatedly calls her a young woman Um And she you can tell by the conversation and so on she's not three. I have a four-year-old My goodness. I wouldn't have trust him to to to be out in the to be out in the wilderness taking care of animals and so on um, but uh, it's it's just a weird situation because you'd wonder why would why would someone want to say aha She was three And but the the only reason is because there there are critics who point out that that mohammed married a nine-year-old And so ah, we'll go ahead and we'll go ahead and and claim that That uh, rebecca was three not realizing you aren't you are attacking both isaac and abraham in that you're saying that they both Promoted that they both promoted that they both promoted pedophilia And again, these are people who who claim to respect the prophets Yeah, again, you're making a mistake there where we're showing you because there's inconsistency with the bible because of its way of Transmission that there are some ways to twist the the the to twist the the version. Oh, you could twist it Yeah, you could twist the you could twist anything. I agree And this is and this is written by jewish commentators that she how to prove that she's three years old Now hey, and how does this apply to this conversation? Is that you keep going to certain hadiths that you're misinterpreting which which state clearly That isha was nine years old It's not us trying to interpret it if no no no notice. Mohammed if you want to say those I'm agreeing with you. I'm agreeing with you if you want to say those hadiths are unreliable You could say that because I mean keep in mind the you know bukhari has written two centuries after the time of Mohammed There's all sorts of times for things to be messed with and so on if you're saying that that's fine But we're we're not misrepresenting things when we say according to sahel bukhari Isha was nine years old the misrepresentation the misrepresentation is you're putting the value of those words on the same Values as the word of god. So this is the word. This is some guidance that was left after We don't believe the Quran's a word of god. We don't believe that but I would agree with I wouldn't I wouldn't I'm agreeing with I'm agreeing with you the in islam in islam the Quran is the supreme authority if a hadith Contradicts the Quran you got throw out that hadith. I agree. I would agree with you on this. This is the case here So there's a lot of hadith that you guys use that. Oh, look at this proof It's either that hadith was for a very specific period where there's Uncertainties that were happening around with like that. We don't have the full picture or the other thing is this clearly like it's clearly Contradicting the Quran but the Quran the Quran never says that that isha was, you know, some other age This one's coming. It's not it's not in the car But the Quran saying do not marry pre-president pre-person like Like young people so I really sorry, I've got to move forward this is zagro's aus-kan says in my village a six-year-old boy can take care of 100 cows This one coming in from bitter truth says got that one Bitter truth also says saying al-Bukhari hadith 61 30 clearly saying aisha hasn't reached her puberty age Muhammad thing with aisha when she was six Saudi mufti fatwa eight eight two thousand also confirms The debate was about the Quran like if this is this is what happens in these debates every time We talk about these exact same topics as if i'm supposed to throw away my whole religion Because you can't get over just one fact that we have a misunderstanding and strive to discuss the Quran Yes, we can't get over the fact that the series says pre-pubescent girls. You're right Because you have a misunderstanding and it's not correct So did the best islamic scholars who have written these that they also were misguided They didn't mean that aisha was playing with dolls They didn't mean that it refers to women who have not yet menstruated because they've not yet reached puberty We don't see that in the lived example of the prophet Well, here's the thing that i'm trying to explain to you is just because they have things that pass down that they have to be apologetic for It's just of a sense of fear of leaving whatever they believe It's the exact same thing that happened to christianity when editions had to happen or editions were added to christianity Like saying that jesus is the son of god, of course the muslims are not going to these extremes But they're saying things that they need to defend because that's what they were passed down to But if you investigate the quran It A it doesn't change my life in any way shape or form and it's a religion It's supposed to be personal and b most of the stuff that they're saying the only proof is someone else said it It's not from the word of god I'm not putting down the what what like the the companions of prophet muhammad peace be upon him did And the people that came after him but some of them were bad players You got to understand that just like how in christianity some of the people that heard the religion They were bad players This one from es 1002 says what is the relation of muslim and x muslim bakari 3017 Putting the hadith just by the number is is is very difficult. Yeah, there are different numbering systems Okay, this even even the hadith before I couldn't respond because this is just a number. I couldn't even hear the number I think that's the hadith about And somebody who changed their religion getting burned and it was that Burning somebody is not the desired punishment because that should be reserved for Allah and hell fire So it was somebody that changed their religion. I think it's emphasizing that muhammad said Whoever changes his religion kill him and somebody was re-enacting that if i'm not mistaken This one got clearly said that she changes her religion. There's no compulsion religion Dasha kiewit says woods Plural says Wood you say you have something over people who need evidence for fictitious characters in a book parentheses atheist You do realize you only have a book, right? um Well, thank you for calling me woods. I know I do the work of I know I do the work of at least two people so You say you have something over people who need Evidence for fictitious characters in a book You do realize you only have a book, right? I don't know. I don't know what this is saying I'm I I don't know what it means to say. I only have a book. I definitely got much more than a book So I don't know. I don't know you're talking about Yeah, this I think it's a some not all atheists just some atheists will just sometimes like Like I got a pen here, you know I think they they mean like they've tried to say like that christians all they have is their book says something They don't have any sort of like arguments like the cumulative No, that's not that you might you might disagree with it. I mean and and uh by by by looking at his uh his youtube channel Ahmet seems to be in the same boat. He would we would say no their their arguments for all all kinds of things Um at the end we at the end of the day We we believe in books, but we believe in them for reasons you might disagree with those reasons Zagros oscan says we only get uh, I think two more here Zagros says youngest known pubescent in medical history was a girl less than five years old According to islam. Is it okay to not only marry her but also to consummate the marriage Okay, so again the criteria for marriage is puberty whether for males or females now I wouldn't go and marry a six year or seven year old if she has actually reached puberty Because there are other criteria. So there are like anything in life There are necessary conditions and there are sufficient conditions So a necessary condition for something like marriage, for example, can be puberty But is it sufficient or not is another question to marry somebody? He needs to be at the intellectual and culture level and Responsibility and accountability level etc to to to proceed So even for example when when Allah in Surat An-Nisaa that we have talked about sound of its ayat Is talking about delivering to orphans their inheritance Okay, he he would say If I asked him minhum rushden Not only that they have reached the age of puberty But they can also be held accountable. They are they have become responsible people So when somebody is looking for someone to marry He needs to see that this person is also at a good level of responsibility to marry So if you go and just throw at the face of somebody will you marry a six year old or nine year old at a ten year old? What is your criteria? It's exactly. I think it's an unfair question This one coming in from do appreciate your question Jeffrey Anderson says do Muslims know that the Tanakh or what Christians call the Old Testament and the Talmud are different things I know that they are different things, but do all Muslims know or not? I don't know Well one actually quick comment. God doesn't talk about the Talmud Because it isn't a book of God So the Torah is the book of God and you're supposed to get their judgments out of the Torah So this is just for to relate some of the stuff that I was saying earlier There are There are there are uh quotations from the Talmud in the Quran though So it doesn't look like like the author of the Quran understood the difference between the the Torah and the Talmud No, there is quotations that are in the Torah that Dave also added in the Talmud No, no, no like like surah 5 verse 32 which talks about the teaching of the Jews that if anyone killed a man It's as if he's killed all mankind. That's from the Talmud. That's not from the Torah So the Islamic perspective on that David would be that God who is God of the Quran is the same God of the Of Judaism and Christianity So if he says that this is something that I have revealed to Jews, it's just he revealed it where they wrote it is something else Well, I mean it's interesting because it's it's a Because the the the claim that if anyone killed a man as if he's killed all mankind is uh was an interpretation of something in the Torah and the interpretation was of The it's a story of Cain and Abel and Cain kills Abel and then And then it says God says your your brother's blood cries out to me from the ground And the the rabbi who's commenting said that the in Hebrew. It's actually plural bloods your bloods your brother's bloods cries out to me from the ground and he says based on this that it wasn't just It wasn't just Abel's blood crying out from the ground. It's it's it was all his future generations And so that was so he says that that the meaning of this is that When you kill someone you're not just killing that person. You're killing all his all his future Generations, but if I were if I were defending your position, I would say that that was the correct interpretation of That verse and so maybe it was like implicit Implicitly contained in the Torah and the the Jewish rabbi brought out the meaning and then Allah agreed with the Actually this exact commentary was made in the Qur'an after the the story of Cain and Abel So it says That's how it that's how it is in the Talmud you have the story of Cain and Abel and then and then it falls You got at the end of the day the Qur'an is just confirming that this is a revelation from God This one coming in from do appreciate as the last one Karenza says does Islam believe that a child that has entered puberty at nine could have sex and be married to an older man Over 50. Yes or no simple question kind of covered that Yeah, I just wanted to add before we I actually agree that that some of these are going too far Off topic and that the topic was about the Qur'an So I think there are Qur'an You know like sort of 65 or 4 with that that we were bringing up some of these some of these issues But it seems to like part partially like diverged into Just a big discussion of some of the hadiths and so on so In other words, if you guys wanted to say hey, we've already addressed these issues. That's that's that's fine Fair yeah, that's there's no anyway With that we're going to Wrap up want to say huge. Thank you to our guests. It's been a true pleasure to have you David Wood Naria Muhammad and finding truth their links are in the description box if you haven't checked them out already folks This is a great opportunity to check out their links. And like I said, even if you disagree This is a great opportunity to learn about a position that you disagree with so you can at least Understand what you're disagreeing with clearly. So with that want to say one last thank you to our guests. It's been a true pleasure to have you Thank you. Thank you, James. Thank you, James. Thank you. You're doing thank you. Thanks for all your questions folks Thanks so much for being with us stick around for a post credit scene Or I'll let you know about upcoming debates. I'll review it back in just a moment Ladies and gentlemen one moment while I load zoom back up so you can see me But in the meantime, I do want to say hello to you there in the old live chat Thanks for being with us. We really do appreciate you hanging out here Yeshua is king good to have you with us as well as solar scriptura. Glad you're here servant girl. Glad you are with us My dear friends, we've got a lot of upcoming debates all over cat Well, good to see you as always want to say we really do appreciate you hanging out here Whether you be muslim whether you be a theist whether you be christian And I think it's true. By the way, I want to say for our muslim guests We appreciate that they were so patient because this is true We did get a little bit sidetracked there toward the end in particular with all the questions That it went toward in the q&a. So that's something that I think I can do a better job of so I do ask that You know bear with me as I work on improving some of our moderation type stuff like that as I do Want to keep it on track. So want to say we do appreciate you being here Whether you be atheist muslim christian hindu you name it. We're glad that you are with us and Got a lot of upcoming debates for example example at the bottom right of your screen. We're very excited about this one Daniel hookikachu and naria will be debating Whether or not Mandatory veiling in muslim countries is good or not You don't want to miss that one hit that subscribe button If you haven't already as it's going to be a lot of fun and we have in fact a lot of upcoming debates So if you look at our youtube channel's home page as I highly encourage you if you enjoy this debate You're in good company. You'll find a lot of other debates that you'll enjoy here as well In particular, let's say. Yeah, you know, I'm looking around on the old youtube channel of modern day debate Here are some of the upcoming debates Flat earth debate tonight at 8 p.m. Eastern. You guessed it flat earth physical earth. I don't know if I yeah I'm pretty pooped out after this one this three hour one. I'm tired So I think I'm gonna moderate that one I might ask Amy because I'm really wiped out and I've got a lot of work to do so Either case the show must go on so somebody's gonna moderate if Amy's not available I'll do it myself But it's going to be a two on two Whitsitt gets it and he is new you might say protege will be teaming up against mark reed and another newcomer Raul, so that's going to be juicy It wasn't oh no, it's david david and mark against witsitt and raul also though This is going to be a big one. We're excited about it are in raw and steward will be debating whether or not There is evidence for god. That's next wednesday. So that's going to be a big one But it just keeps getting bigger. We have others conspiracy cats big-time YouTuber in the science world so science kind of debates and arguments all sorts of fun stuff like that He's going to be back with david mcqueen on the age of the earth You don't want to miss that one. That'll be a great debate Both guys are it's been a pleasure to have both of them on Conspiracy cats as well as david in the past. So we're excited for that one and then further out daniel hikikachu and Mike jones from inspiring philosophy will be debating whether or not child marriage is acceptable That's probably going to be at our next in-person conference We've got a lot of big ones coming up. So we're excited about that. We're excited about the future I want to say thanks for being with us osama Obama you better behave in chat. We let you get away with murder here. Don't push it You know, you know, like snack entity. Good to see you. Glad to have you in the old live chat. Thanks for coming by Duh Was a lar says was uh, what was your longest debate? Was it this one? I don't think it was this one But this one's getting close We don't usually go this long because it's been over three and a half hours. Holy smokes. That's a long time So for me, I'm like still thinking it's morning right now because that's when I started It was like 10 a.m. Here and I'm like, oh, it's one 30 in the afternoon. I was like gotta get moving So yeah, I gotta go. I gotta do a short post-predate senior. I gotta drink this up and go work out But good to see you mojo. Happy to have you as well as ever and to freak all thoughts are ellies best Be still and no Verse 10. Thanks for coming by. I see you there in the old live chat as well as s. Campbell Glad to have your snack entity. Good to see you camis sama. Let me know if I'm saying it right glad to have you here Well, one's glad you're here Prince Vegeta. Good to see you again surgeon general. Thanks for all your support Good to see you again. Mark Thompson. Glad you were here. Is there any news on debate con part three? Yes We should hear back. I'm hoping to hear back from our scouts on what location it'll be at We know it's going to be in Dallas. That's the plan. We're just trying to confirm the actual venue right now So once we know that we can put out the invites to speakers, which will be cool A keel good to see you there in the old live chat says is that date of the daniel hikikijo debate fixed yet? It's going to be april 20th. So I think I have to update it. I think right now it's set for like march The daniel hikikijo one that you see on screen though That's a different one with norea. That one's actually going to be on february 22nd So that'll be this month Are I good to see you there in the old live chat repent? Glad you're here jungle jargon. Good to see you again as well as mr. Kreen and thanks for coming by happy to have you here Heat shield good to see you again will mark. Glad to have you back a keel. Glad to have you with us jbo 2000 Glad you are here This next debate is james coons morally good. I can tell you who I'm far from perfect But I am nonetheless glad that you were here whether you be far from perfect or maybe you're like, hey You know, I'm close to perfect. I don't know what what do you guys think you can tell me in chat We're glad you're here though people from all walks of life. We really appreciate you hanging out with You're at modern a debate. We are a neutral channel. It is our goal It is our vision to provide a level playing field so that everybody can make their case on a neutral debate platform That's what we're determined to do in the future We're excited about that and we've got to tell you in addition to that we care about our values and our values Are as we've talked about these before we want people to have the freedom to say what they want In particular to make the arguments they want to take but the positions that they take We want to give everybody that fair shot even the most controversial views and that leads to our next Value that we hold dear a lot of people are like James. That's dangerous. You can't give so-and-so a platform You can't give this idea a platform. I've got to tell you though We can and the reason is our second value is competition We believe that the best arguments are going to win out the cream will rise to the top It is a natural selection of ideas here The bad ideas if they are dangerous or if they are stupid Then they'll be exposed here at modern a debate and that's a good thing because we believe competition helps refined It makes things sharper. It makes things better. A lot of people are like, oh, I'm not in the discussion I'm like very passive as well. But we're like, no, no, no, believe me. It makes us stronger. It's good to challenge yourself It's good to have ideas challenged as we believe like I said if you let a thousand flowers bloom The good argue you say the good arguments the good ideas the good positions They are going to come out on top And my dear friends we've got to say we are excited about the future We are optimistic. There's a bright future for modern a debate Join us now if you haven't already because this is just the beginning of our story We have big things to come and we always want to make our guests feel like I said That they can say what they want In particular if they have a controversial religious view or a controversial anti-religious view, whatever it is Our guests were free from their first breath to say what they wanted and we wanted to stay that way In particular a lot of channels will say, oh, you know, we have to do responsible platform where we De-platform so-and-so we de-platform these positions who say why? If you think that these ideas are so bad Why not the other we should let them be exposed? Isn't that good? Like are you afraid that these people that these dangerous people are winning? Is do you really think they're winning all these debates and that like because if you think that they're losing Which presumably you know all these people do de-platform If you think that these dangerous people out there are losing Well, then why would you want to de-platform? This is a great opportunity to put them on the platform on purpose So everybody can see all of their crap exposed and say like, uh, well now I'm kind of inoculated against that You know, in other words, you can say like I'm almost like vaccinated in the old sense of the vaccine Like they've got a small dose of it and then saw the refutation of it. And so now when they hear about it in the future They're like, oh no, like I know like what you're trying to do here I've heard these arguments before and I've heard the rebuttals to them before I'm not going to be fooled. That's a good thing And in fact, I can tell you the empirical research because I'm getting my doctorate in Basically, it's in psychology more broadly in particular industrial organizational And so we actually do cover the persuasion literature in my own field Iosychology is it I can tell you there's good empirical backing for my position in terms of our Platforming position where we are willing to take on the most controversial people and topics And we think that actually it has a positive net good. So That's the thing folks is I've heard a lot and that's the thing too is like when I've heard these de-platformers They're usually not always but they're the usually the ones that you know, they've they've got their Soylent They've got their blue-pilled soy boys not always like I said, there's an exception not all not all not all not all But a lot of them are you know, they're very sheltered They're all you know, you want to keep things safe and they're the kind of people that like, oh, you know Wear your bike helmet every time you get on your bike Is I would say hey Don't get me wrong. I understand there's a reasonable thing to think through this But a lot of these people are very they're afraid of everything Oh, it's like a dangerous you would someone think of the children and we say hey, you know what? We're gonna give These people who have these dangerous or bad and or bad ideas a chance Because then when their idea is exposed, that's a good thing for society Not running from them not running from the battle, but we are saying hey, we're gonna take it on and we're gonna let it be exposed My dear friends a lot of people want to take the easy way out And I would say that's what I think the de-platforming thing is is like and I frankly I think it's also there's a combination of this sick moral narcissism of wanting to get off to their own like yes I'm moral. So I don't associate with them Which is you know, like seems a little bit like you don't associate with them like getting up on the moral high horses A lot of times they'll even say well, I not only do I not associate with those But I also don't associate with those who platform them. Oh, like I'm extra morally pure is Like I said, because a lot of them they will tout it, you know Like they'll kind of like where it's a badge and tell people that But I've got to say like when you look at the actual arguments in terms of what brings about the greatest good for the most people I say, I don't know that a consequence consequentialist perspective like the functional value of modern data bait is like I think we actually bring about more good And we're not the ones that are getting up on the moral high horse We're just saying hey, we think there's a good argument for this is good But we're not the types that are going to be like, oh, you're like, I won't associate with them I've got to tell you My dear friends We're glad that you are here even if you're a soy boy, you know because we are you know Even if you're a soy boy and you want to promote soy in the chat things like that because you know We have people that let's say In the chat will sometimes say look, oh, how dear are you? You know, you should not platform these people and we don't ban them. We're like, hey, you know Like if you want to be here, we'll let you criticize us like we don't care We know your arguments that that week that will just let you you know be in chat and embarrass yourself So we you know, we're big on like, hey, we'll give everybody a chance even those You know even the soy suckers the what you know, the soy guzzlers We'll let them, you know, they want to say that stuff. That's okay. So I want to say we appreciate yeah, that's right snack entity says james putting the hammer on the safe space types I get the idea of like not wanting to step on people's toes. I don't enjoy stepping on people's toes like for example I don't have any pleasure and like, you know, like, oh, I want to like be hard on the muslims Or I want to be hard on the atheists or the christians. I'm like, no, I was like, I don't have any like acts to grind at the same time, I think our society is it's got this like toxic politeness of like Catering to the neurotic rather than saying like, hey, listen, I mean, I gotta tell you on my university I was told that if you can't say, oh, you look nice today. You can't say that to a colleague Because they might interpret it to mean like Oh, so you mean I don't look nice on other days because you said today at the end of the sentence And I'm like, you know, if we really if it's getting to the point where that's inappropriate to say you look nice today This is getting kind of ridiculous in the sense that rather than giving this super neurotic person who takes it So poorly to be told that they look nice today Rather than helping them to learn how to deal with the hardships of life Like help them to become more adaptive and able to cope with stress Like the stressors are being told you look nice today Rather than doing that what should be this is a great learning opportunity where we could do that And we say, hey, you know Might be a way to do a little cognitive behavioral therapy with yourself To kind of try to reason through whether or not your Interpretation of this is as catastrophic as you think or insulting as you think Where you think that they're out to get you or something That would be what we should be doing and that's why for me I am a little bit more casual with how I speak because I think it's a great opportunity where we can Hopefully I can bring those things up Rather than this kind of like bizarre enabling of the hyper neurotic people who are You know interpreting things in the worst way humanly possible Which I think is like if anything we're actually we're patronizing them and ultimately harming them When we give into this like bizarre sick twisted toxic politeness. The other thing that's toxic is you could saw You could call it toxic Accusations of toxicity There's such a thing because so many people they call everything toxic for crying out loud Is that at some point you have to wonder like these people You have to wonder at some point It's like but is everything as toxic as you say it is because I think that's like the new cool thing to call everything toxic You feel like oh, let's find a way to call this toxic. Oh like cool like look at me I found a way to say this is you know a toxic Positivity like all right. I'm gonna find a way to let me think of something else that's usually positive and I'll find a way how to call this toxic is I honestly think a lot of this is like it's to the point where it's like Yeah, I get a little bit excessive with always wanting to say, you know, this is how something is Toxic this is how something is problematic. That's another big one. Just this problematic Oh, this is very problematic This kind of like these people these are the kind of people like I said They don't just wear a bike helmet while they're on their bicycle I mean they wear a 24-7 they go to sleep with a bike helmet on they're just constantly worried and uptight about making these rules About trying to protect everybody from everything When in actuality, it's actually good if we say hey, let's teach people how to handle the stressors of life not try to Eliminate all the stressors of life because the truth is if you can't handle someone telling you hey, you look nice today I don't know how you're gonna handle the hard things of life Like when you lose a close friend or a family member like there are so many harder things That it's like all right. We might as well teach them to start being able to cope and adapt to things In terms of the hard things in life by using things like you look nice today So that they're actually prepared when the genuinely hard things come up So want to say that's my little spiel, but want to say, you know, I love you guys I appreciate you guys. We hope that you're doing well. We hope you are uh, enjoy moderate debate We're gonna be back tonight. Like I said, whether it's me or Amy I hate to ask you the moderators on like I normally I would have asked Amy like two days ago But in this case, I'm like crap. I'm tired. I don't know So who whether it's me or Amy. We'll be back tonight. I want to say thanks guys. I love you guys Thanks for making this fun year It's always fun and we're excited about the future here at modern day debate It was we strive to fulfill the vision of providing a neutral platform so that everybody has their chance to make their case On a level playing field. We will see you at the next one. Thanks for all your support folks I love you guys and I'll see you at the next one amazing