 Well, good evening, everyone, and welcome to Inside Leather History, a fireside chat. We are a program of the Leather Archives and Museum, and I'm Doug O'Keefe, your host. I produce these chats along with Christina Court and Mistress Joanne Gatti. We hope we are showing this live on Facebook tonight, but we're not sure yet, and I really don't know. We're going to hope that that's the case as well. But we are recording this for posterity. What we intend to have happen here this evening is an hour-long or so chat followed by audience questions. We will not film the audience, so you can ask whatever it is you'd like to ask, and that's usually when some of the best questions will come up quite frankly. But I'd really like to take a moment to thank an extraordinary lady. Ms. Kendra, you were the first event producer to welcome the chats at your event. I had been doing these in Chicago, and you were the first person to welcome me to your event. These have been an integral and very successful part of GLLA since 2009, and I thank you. Personally thank you. Without further ado, I would like to thank GLLA. I would like to thank Carlos for all of his hard work. And we'll go ahead and we'll begin the chat. Okay? All right. Oh, and I have to say something just because, but Ms. Kendra was so concerned no one would come. Look at this. There have to be 50 people or more here, so including, may I say, Ms. Kendra's parents right here. Yes. Relax. I'll be gentle. Thank you. Well, there was some significance to the music that was being played this evening. What exactly was that? Well, it was ACDC, which is my favorite group ever. I sang in a heavy metal band for a little bit in high school, and I only did ACDC, and I never outgrew it, so. Well, you attended the very first, the inaugural chat with Mr. Marcus. That was in January of 2008 in Chicago. What did you think of that? I loved Mr. Marcus, and I remember we drove up to Chicago to see him, and you reminded me earlier tonight that you could hear me laughing on his taped fireside chat because I did not know Mr. Marcus had done drag years ago and had birds flying out of his hat on stage at once, and I loved hearing all of his stories. He was such an interesting person, and I learned a lot about him that night. For example, what? What I learned about him? Yes. I really didn't know he had been married for whatever reason I didn't know that, so I learned that about him, and I didn't know he did drag, so. What are your thoughts now about being part of the chat program? I do think it's important. I do, and I'm honored that you asked me. I'm nervous. I am. I think it is important part of our history that we document it for our future younger people if they're interested, if they find this interesting. Absolutely. Well, please tell us a little bit about where you grew up and a bit about your family, keeping in mind your parents are here. My dad said he would come up and do the interview for me. I'm pretty out in every way to my parents. I have been for a long time. I was born in Murfreesboro, Tennessee, and we moved to Mississippi when I was young, and then we moved to Memphis, Tennessee, and then we moved to Solana, Tennessee, where my mom and dad grew up, and that's where our family lives in the hills of Tennessee. My family, they're all hillbillies, and I'm very proud of that. I think I've lost a lot of my accent, according to them, that I don't talk right anymore. My mom taught school for 37 years, and my dad still is a minister to this day he has not retired, so I grew up in a very conservative, religious home. The church played a large part in your formative years. How did that, how did it do that? Well, we were at church a lot, and I would always go back to the back and smile and shake everybody's hand with mom and dad at the end of church service, and thank them all for being there, so I got used to meeting a lot of people on a weekly basis. We moved around enough that it was easy for me to make friends, because I knew I needed to make friends, because we might move again, and I always liked having a lot of friends. We were at church three or four times a week, and then sometimes I would get up and practice preaching to people, though nobody was there. I would practice, and I would make the little boys in our neighborhood listen to me in the backyard, and I would preach to them. I got in trouble a little bit for that, because I wouldn't let them get up until I was done. I think mom thought I was being mean to them, but I was just being me. Well, the first time, though, that you ever kissed a boy, you slapped him. What was going on with that? I did. I don't think they know this story. When I was a teenager, I went out with this boy, and I didn't date very much, because we lived in the hills of Tennessee, and I knew that I was not going to stay there when I got 18. I didn't want to get to like anybody or get involved, because I was leaving. I was not going to live there for the rest of my life. I wanted to live in a big city with an international airport. So that was my dream. I know, Mama, I always tell Mama when I was little, we would talk about different countries, and I'd say, I go there, because that was a big thing for me. And she would go, oh, yes, honey, I'm sure you will. But anyway, back to the slapping boy. So at the end of the date, it had been nice and everything. He kissed me, and it felt good, and because it felt good, I slapped him. And that really scared me, because that was the first time I had ever associated those two things together. So I knew that night that I was weird, but different. And I kind of thought maybe I was crazy, and that really scared me, especially at a young age, because why would anybody slap someone if they did something nice for them? OK. How did you first learn about homosexuality? I first learned about homosexuality. 1982 was a turning point for me. 1982 was when I moved to Murfreesboro, Tennessee, and I met a friend at college, and we were all sitting around one night, and she said, I think my boyfriend's cheating on me, and he's going to Nashville, and I don't know what he's doing. And so it was decided that night that I would go with her to Nashville to find out if he was cheating on her. So we get in the car, and we go to Nashville, and on the way up there, she informs me that she thinks he's going to a gay bar, and I didn't know what that was. What age were you at this point? I was 20. And I didn't know what that was. Now, I was a very sheltered life. And so I asked her what it was, and when she told me, I said, oh my god, I've never heard of that. That this was in 1982. So we go to the warehouse in Nashville. It's not there anymore. And we go in, and I'm real excited, because I'm not 21 yet. And they didn't check IDs. And I went in, but I was just going to be there for a minute to see if her boyfriend was there. And I couldn't imagine why her boyfriend was going to be at a gay bar once I knew what it was. So we go in, and we sit down, and there he is. He's on the dance floor with another man. And she immediately gets up and storms over there, and I'm thinking, why are they all dancing together? So while she was up talking to them, these two men in leather come over and sit down and start talking to me. And I immediately liked them. They were so, so nice. And I don't know why they picked me, but we ended up going next door to the chute, which was the leather bar, which was right next door. And when we walked in the door, I knew that Dave and Jeff said, well, she's with us. And I thought, oh, wow, I'm with them. They must be somebody important. And that was the leather bar. So that night, I learned what homosexuality was. And over the past years from that, I learned that every man friend I had in high school was gay. And I didn't know it. Even my boyfriend in high school. I knew he was always a gentleman. So. Well, how did you become aware of BDSM activities? In 1982, I took a psychosexual adjustment class. And that's where I met my best friend, Jody Burshell. And one of the chapters in there was on, I can't remember the exact wording that it was, but they had a panel of people that came in to talk to the class. And they talked about BDSM. And they're talking about things that I had thought about, but would never tell anybody because I thought it was crazy. And that's how I learned about it. It was from a chapter in a book and about five people in a college class that came and talked. And that's when I realized there were other people out there that had similar thoughts that I had. What sort of things did they present? What BDSM activities did they discuss? They talked about slapping, which is a big thing for me. They talked about spitting on people. They talked about whipping people, tying people up, making people do what they wanted them to do. And I thought, well, a lot of people do that. They make other people do what they want to do, but not in this way. And it was more of a formalized way. And I remember thinking there's a lot of people out there because they were talking about it. And it was so exciting to me, all the different things. I remember those things specifically. And they were really cool clothes. Well, a moment ago, you alluded to two wonderful people that you met and that they took you to the leather bar. They were amazing mentors to you. Please tell us who they were. Who were they to you? Dave and Jeff, I met in Nashville, Tennessee that night at the shoot. And they immediately just accepted me. And I remember noticing that there were never any other women there. But I was OK as long as I was with them. They made me feel very safe. They were two of my best friends. And they taught me a lot about being a good person and about doing something nice every day. That's a beautiful tribute. What activities did they enable you to enjoy, experience? They let me choose the first thing I learned. And the first thing I picked, because I had seen it at the shoot, this was back when people did a lot of things at the bar, I picked fisting. And they said, are you sure? And I said, yes. And so for the next several years, I learned about that. And I remember two or three years into it, they said, I think you're ready to be on your own on this. And I was very nervous. I said, oh, I don't think so. And they said, you're ready. So they taught me that. But they more so taught me about being nice to people, which my parents had always taught me to. But I learned that even in what we think sometimes is a rough and tough world, it's always good to be nice. How did they teach that to you? Well, I was required to do that. I considered them my masters, even though I was always dominant, which I found out later was very unusual for someone in the 80s to come out that way, to be allowed to be dominant from the beginning. I remember Dave said I would not be good any other way. So they didn't want me to even try. But I remember that if they were there and they were doing things, I kept my mouth shut because I knew that I always thought they had the right answers to everything. And I had a lot of respect for them, a lot of respect. And when I look back on it now, I realize that they were probably the elders in our group of friends. But I didn't look at it that way then. I think I was too immature in being 20 to even realize that's what it was. Because it was a lot of fun. And we really enjoyed ourselves. What other sorts of things did you do? We would always get together before we would go out to the bar. It was a very social experience. And all the guys would come over. And they usually came to their house because they lived in Nashville. And I still lived in Martha's Bar at the time. And we would all get together. And it was very family, very much so. And we would all go out together. And I learned later that part of that was for safety, that we all stayed together. But I didn't know that at the time either. But I just know when we would all arrive, to me, it seemed like the party started, to me. Now, I don't know if that was true or not, but I mean, it did for me. Then that's how it felt. When you experienced fisting for the first time, what did that evoke for you? I almost passed out. Why? It was something that was so euphoric. There's no explanation for it other than that. And it's like that to this day. It's better than anything in this world. Wow. I remember the first time that I ever witnessed that. I got a chair. And I sat and watched it for I don't know how long. I was so, it was beautiful. It was just the most beautiful thing I'd ever seen. Wow, that's quite something. And I still feel that way. What does mentoring mean to you? Mentoring is a very important part of our world. Mentoring, when you mentor under someone, you approve and you look up to what they stand for and how they act and what they say. And I think mentoring to me is a lot about, I want to be like them. And I know with Dave and Jeff, oh my god, I thought if I can ever just know all the things they know or even half of the things they knew, I might make it. Because I always felt like I was kind of, I didn't realize I was being mentored. But I always felt like that in any moment I could be discarded. Not because of anything they said, but just, I think it was so important to me that I didn't want to say or do the wrong thing and be kicked out of the group. And when I looked back on that mentoring, there was a lot of people that came up like that. There's a lot of people that came up like that. And it was very important. I don't know that people see it as so important today, and I think it's even more important today. Well, I agree. I do. I think if more people found the right mentor, we would even be a stronger community. What happened the first time you went to the 501 bar? Well, the first time I went to the 501 bar, I hadn't lived here that long. And I went out, and they wouldn't let me in the door because I was a woman. And I thought, I live here now. What am I going to do? So I went to OPs, which is now known as Greg's Place. And I met a man named Tom Kaufman. And he's here tonight. He's sitting next to my dad. And Tom came up to me, and oh, he was just so nice and was very complimentary. And he introduced me to all of his friends because Tom knew everybody. Tom was in the end crowd, I guess, as you would say. He knew all the leather guys here. And he said, we're going to go to the 501. Do you want to go with us? And I said, I already went over there, and they wouldn't let me in. And Tom said, they'll let you in. You come with us. And so when we got over there, we got to the door. And that same guy was at the door, and he looked at me. And Tom reminded me of 82 because Tom looked at the guy at the door, and he kind of looked funny. And Tom goes, she's with all of us. And the guy's like, yeah, she's with all of us. And from then on, I never had a problem. And I had never experienced that. You would think in Tennessee, being in the South, I would have experienced that. But I never did. I didn't experience it until I came here to Indiana. I didn't know there was a problem like that then. And that's been 20 something years ago. I can't remember the exact year, maybe 24. Well, unfortunately, the 501 bar is actually closing this weekend. What are your thoughts on that? Well, it's a part of the times. People today don't go out like we used to. They get online. They get on their phones. They meet people that way. And when we went out in the 80s and 90s, we didn't have the internet. We didn't have cell phones. And if you wanted to meet other people and hang out with them, you had to go to the bar or somebody's house. But we did that here. We'd go to somebody's house, and then we'd go out. And a lot of the younger people just don't go out. And then those of us that are older, we don't go out like we used to because we're older. And when it gets to be 10 or 11 o'clock, I'm ready to go to bed sometimes. Not this weekend, but sometimes I am. And then some of the guys have moved into retirement homes. And I still visit them there. And I think they might have a curfew or something. I don't know. What brought you to compete at Imzel? I was told to. The guys here and a bunch of the bears that lived here came to me and said, well, I competed for Ms. Indiana Leather Pride in 96. And they wanted me to compete in this contest. And I said, oh, I'm not qualified to do that. And they said, well, you're going to do it. And to encourage me, they had the Mr. Indiana Leather Pride that night. And so Tom Kaufman competed that night with me. So I wasn't by myself. And we got dressed up at the Metro with all the drag queens. And I was very fascinated with that because they could do makeup really well. And they always look nice. And so basically I was told to do it. So when I won the Indiana contest, I went on to Imzel. And I had never really met hardly any other women in the Leather community. I was amazed to go to Imzel. And my sash has been Mr. Indiana Leather Jim Ellison. He's here tonight. We're celebrating our 20-year anniversary this year. He went with me. It was just the two of us going to San Diego to Imzel. And I was scared to death. But it was an amazing experience. I met a lot of women at Imzel that it was phenomenal. It was just phenomenal. Other than meeting people, why do you feel so positive about it? All the women there, and I, in myself, I found something that came out from competing. When I competed in Indiana, it sparked something in me. And when I went to Imzel, I felt that same thing. And I don't know what that something was exactly. But it sparked something in me that it made me want to do more than I had been doing in the community. And I'd been doing a lot of things, but not like I thought I should. But once winning a title, it opened a lot of doors for me. And I met a lot of other title holders on a different level. Well, you were once a member of the Bag Ladies. Please tell us about that. Well, thanks to Tom Sizemore. And he's sitting next to Tom Kaufman. I was, I'm trying to remember. It was a long time ago. I was invited to do the Bag Lady bus tour. And they always had it around Halloween. And we had so much fun on the Bag Lady bus. There was, we'd go from bar to bar, restaurant to restaurant, raising money. And being part of the Bag Ladies, they did a lot of fundraisers to raise money for AIDS and HIV organizations. It was wonderful. And that was another great part of being part of a group of people doing really good things. And I remember on one occasion at Talbot Street, I did, I think it's called a King Drag or Drag King. I was a drag king. And I was backstage, and the guys were teaching me how to walk like a man, because I was just like Garth Brooks. And I walked out on this stage at Talbot Street. And I don't walk like a man very well, because I pulled a muscle when I got out there. And I still performed. It was a lot of fun. It was a lot of fun. And the Bag Ladies do great things now. They do fundraisers monthly. And I think they're either the oldest or the second oldest HIV and AIDS fundraising organization in the country. Wow. It's very impressive. And the younger people are becoming part of the Bag Ladies now. So those of us that are getting a little older and don't do as much, the young people are taking over, which is good. It's a good thing. Well, you served on the board of Indiana Still Cares. What is that organization? Tell us about that. The organization does not exist anymore. But Indiana Still Cares oversaw the Bag Ladies and a lot of the charities and fundraisers that we did with the Bag Ladies. And it was a board of directors. And we disbanded it. I can't remember how many years ago it was. I'm looking at Tom Sleizmour, because I don't remember, because he sat on the board with me. But it's been maybe 10 years or more since it disbanded. It was a great organization. But I think it had run its course. And the way the Bag Ladies are run now is probably the way it should be for the way we are in the future. How did GLLA begin? Dan Clark, who won International Mr. Drummer, I believe it was in 2000, he and I were at the 501 Talking One Night. And we'd been at the Metro, and then we'd gone to 501. And we started talking about, and this was back over 15 years ago. It was maybe 16 or more years ago, that we would love to see an event that welcomed everyone. Because back then, we did not know of another event that welcomed gay people and straight people that welcomed all different kinds of people at the same event. Most all the events we knew about were very specialized. It was either for women or for men. Or I didn't know very much about what straight people did then. I mean, I didn't. Because that wasn't any part of my life at all. It was all in the gay men's community, everything. Every social everything was. But I learned a lot. Dan Clark and I decided that what we would do is we would ask all the leaders of the different groups here in town to come to the Metro and get together and talk. And Dan came up with a name. Dan Clark was very creative. He was very artistic, very theater-minded. He and I over drinks at the 501. I think he came up with the name. I don't think I did. And we came up with Great Lakes Leather Alliance and Alliance of people in the region. We wanted to bring all the states together. Not just this area, but all the states. Because everybody was very separate. Ohio did their thing. Indiana did their thing. Kentucky was separate. Everybody was very separate in everything. And so we brought these people together. And there's several of them here tonight that were at that meeting. And a few of them sit on the board still for Great Lakes that were at those first meetings that formed this event. And a lot of it was through a lot of trial and error. We made the mistake, and I'm going to call it a mistake, that we thought we would have just a group of people get together and everybody would all decide everything together, like we wouldn't have anybody lead the group. Dan and I wanted everybody to have an equal voice. And it sounded great at the beginning. But after about the third or fourth meeting, we realized that wasn't going to work, unfortunately. So there was a big clash with the straight people and the gay people, big clash. But we worked through that. It was mostly with just a few people. But we worked through all of that. The ones that were there for the right reasons stay. And it was decided that we had a chairman the first year and a treasurer. And then Dan and I would make a lot of the contest decisions. Dan had a lot of contacts with the contest system because he'd won international drummer. So we kind of muddled through that first year. And we had about 100 people. And most of it was people involved with the event. But we filled up OPs, which is now known as Greggs, and Phil Denton that owns that bar said that we were the only event that he ever had in there that outgrew the bar the first year. It was standing room only. And people were going out waiting out the door. It was just packed. Why did you decide to continue with it? Well, after the first year, Dan Clark had met this really hot guy down in Florida. And he said he was going to move. So he called me. And he says, I'm going to move. If you want to continue this, I'll sign over my half to you because we kind of owned each of us own half of things. So I met him at the Metro on Mass Avenue. And he signed over everything to me. And I thought, can I do this? And so I started calling people. It was all the same people that had helped with it and a lot more people. And from that, it's grown to what you see today. From that second year. And some of it is still trial and error. Sometimes we try things to see if it'll work. And if it doesn't, we don't do it again. And if it does, we keep doing it. What's been your greatest challenge for GLLA? All the personalities. The greatest challenge, I think, of any event producer is especially an event that has so many different types of people. You're not catering to just one group of people. You're looking at a lot of groups of people. And some of it you've never even heard of. Or a small group of people come up with something that you don't understand. And that's OK. That's OK to not understand it, but to be accepting of it. And that's always a challenge to have all the personalities and have everything sink together. And I do believe, from the other boards that I sat on, that our board overall gets along better with each other than any board I've ever sat on. Why do you think so? A lot of us are friends. And we're friends outside of this. We're not here just because of this. We go to dinner together. Some of us have been on vacation together. We're friends outside of this. And we care about each other. And that's very important. It's got to be much more than we're just here to put on an event together. It does. And a lot of the people that sit on the board, I was friends with them long before Great Lakes have ever even thought about. Well, the personalities is the greatest challenge. What's been the most rewarding experience for GLLN? Definitely the people and the title holders seeing that this event changes people's lives. People come up to me and say, this event changed my life. This event made me better. The title holders, to see them grow. To see them grow from little children, when I meet them sometimes, to thriving working adults in our community. It's amazing. It's absolutely amazing. And people that don't believe in contest anymore, I will probably never be one of those people. Because I see what the title holder system does for people. I see how it enriches their lives. It makes shy people become able to be out there and meet other people. And you see that here at Great Lakes. You may see someone that competed here. They win. And in three years, they're up giving speeches in front of 500 people. And before, they were having to go to Toastmasters just to be able to do their two-minute speech at Great Lakes. And it's definitely the people. That's what makes it worth it. Well, one of the most moving aspects of GLLA, and in my personal opinion, is the earned leather presentation that you do during the Sunday brunch. Please tell us about that. How did that come about? I believe it was in 2006 when Mr. Susan and Slave Ziggy ran for international master slave. And I judged them. And I met them that year. I was so impressed with them. Just what a wonderful, wonderful master and slave. And Slave Ziggy and Ms. Susan and Garrett and I had many long conversations at events. I remember an event in Atlanta that we were in the lobby. And we sat and watched everybody go to the dungeon. And we sat there for six hours and watched them all come back. And we sat there and talked all night. And one of the things we talked about that night was Ziggy had done a lot of research on the earned leather ceremony and things that had happened in the past. And I remembered when she was talking about that, that Dave and Jeff had done that in the 80s. But we'd always done it privately. And they had not really called it that. But it was as people kind of moved up. Our leather community is very, there's a ladder system. You're supposed to start out here and you work your way up, even if you don't know you're working your way up. It's a way of earning your place. And when Ziggy was talking about how the military and how a lot of those things worked and my slave Garrett was in the Navy, that conversation sparked the memory that I had of that, even though we didn't really call it that. And I felt like that tradition, and that was a tradition in the 80s, a lot of people say that didn't happen. But it did, because I was there and I saw it. And it did happen in Nashville, Tennessee. I know it may not have happened in other parts of the country, but I know it happened in Nashville, Tennessee. I felt like it was important to bring that back. And the best way I knew how to do that was to do it at Great Lakes, where people could witness it and see it and see the significance of it. So I decided that we would put it with a Sunday branch, because it kind of capped off the weekend. And I felt like it was important for people to see something that I was privileged to get to be part of in the 80s, even though I didn't really know that at the time. I was so young and naive, I didn't realize how wonderful that really was. What feedback has come to you about that? I get a lot of positive feedback. I get some people that think that never happened, and it was all made up. And if they want to believe that, that's OK. I was there. There is a man that lives here in town. He's not here tonight, but his name is Greg Bryce. And he was there, too. He used to live in Nashville. And I work with his partner, Don Griffin. But Greg Bryce lives here, and he remembers that, too. So it's not like I just thought that up. Most of the people that do talk to me about it are very moved by it. And it's a big honor to earn something and, again, to feel a part of something really wonderful. And it is wonderful. Absolutely. What future plans do you have for GLLA? I have a lot of ideas for Great Lakes. I hope that I live to see some of those ideas come to be. One of the things that I had as an idea that was given to me from someone else, but I kind of expanded on it, is our educational program that we're doing here this weekend that I think is very important. It's a five-year educational program. And that's been many years in the making. But education is very, very important. And a lot of people think they can look at something online or watch a YouTube video, and they've got it. And that is not true. And I always compare that with, could you be a brain scientist or a brain surgeon by watching a YouTube video? No. And I take what we do very serious, because some of the things we do are life and death. They are some of the things that we do. And being educational, I want Great Lakes to always have an importance on education. And believe it or not, I'd like to expand some. I've got my eye on a few more states that we may add to our region. So I'm not out yet. So I would like to see that, because my slave Garrett has talked to me about that, and I've accepted it now, and I'm good with it, that we can expand and do more. You mentioned the educational component. What sorts of educational things are you offering as of this year? Well, we have a whole list of different types of classes. And for every educational slot that we have this weekend, there's two classes that are designated for part of that. And some of it is we have an elders panel that I think is very important for people to go and learn from our elders. I learn something every day from my elders. I do. I learn something every year here at Great Lakes, too, from someone. We have our title holder panel. And so every year, we have last year's winners sit on a panel, and people can come in and ask them questions about their title year. And they talk about their experience. And from that, we've gotten a lot of people that compete in future years from that, because someone will always say in that title holder panel, this changed my life for the better. One of the kids always says that every year. Some of the classes are just speaking, and then some of them are hands-on learning, because the one-on-one hands-on learning, even in a class of 30 or 40 people, is vital. Again, you can't learn this stuff on YouTube, and you shouldn't. You shouldn't. I think it should be one-on-one with people. But you mentioned it's a five-year plan. How is that? Yes, it is. So we have a program that it's a little booklet, and it says Passport to Education. And you go to four classes this year, and you get a stamp at each class. And then in year two, year three, year four, and year five, you do the same thing. Well, this year, you can start at any point. But this year, there's a globe that you can earn that when you go into the classes. And it's a globe that says GLLA on it. And then there's rocker panels that you can earn in years two, three, four, and five that talk about integrity and service to the community. So it's a five-year plan because there's five pieces to this globe and the rocker panels to make it a complete patch to put on your vest. What do you like the most or even dislike the most about GLLA or working in this situation? Well, we talked about the personalities of people. People in our way of life with power exchange and dominance and submission, a lot of us like to think we're always right. We are only always right to whoever serves us, such as our slave or our boy or our girl. We're not right to everybody else. I think that's one of the dislikes is people thinking that everybody should do what they say no matter who they are. But there's a lot of likes, too. There's a lot of things to like and love about an event like this. And I think as we go on this weekend, Great Lakes has become more than I ever envisioned. I really didn't. I know when we started, I thought, well, I'll do it a second year and see how it goes. And then I think, well, I'll do it a third year. Every year I'd make a decision about a week after the event, am I going to do this another year? Because it's very taxing. And I mean, I was in my 30s when we started. And I'm in my 50s now. And my body's different. It is. It's different. Well, now that it's celebrating its 15th anniversary, what are your thoughts? I can't believe we've done this for 15 years, for the most part. I'm very amazed that we have. And I'm very excited. And I'm looking forward to 16, 17, 18, 19, and 20, at least. I think I've got maybe five more years in me. I don't know. We'll see. We'll see. What's the biggest misconception about you? That my life is perfect. I think sometimes people think that I don't get sick or I'm not things that are bad don't happen to me. And I've been told that because I don't put that out there. I was taught by my parents and by Dave and Jeff that if you're sick or something's wrong with you, you don't tell people that. You take care of your business. And you try to make it seem like everything's OK. And maybe that's the biggest misconception about me that nothing bad's ever happened to me. And everything's just perfect and rosy every day. And it's not. It's just I don't put it out there. You see a lot of title holders. And I see that there are quite a number of title holders even in here this evening. As people come through the title circuit, what advice have you for them? As people come through the title circuit, always stay true to yourself. You may hear that from a lot of people, but it's very important. And try to be nice. Don't come in all cocky and act like you know everything. Because I don't care who you are, you don't. I don't know everything. I call people for advice every week. And I think being a title holder, people will automatically look up to you and think you have all the answers to everything and make sure that you tell them you don't. Don't act like you do, because that will get you in a lot of trouble. If they think you know everything about everything, it'll put you in a bad position. I think for the title holders too, it's a lot of work, and it should be. It should be a lot of work. It takes a lot of work to keep our community going and to keep us unified, because there's a lot of things that try to tear us apart. And title holders sometimes get mixed up in that. And they don't see what's really important. What would that be for, in your opinion? What is important? What is important is our community and us staying together and being friends to each other and not being mean to each other. That's very important, it is. And we may not all agree, and that's okay, because we didn't all agree in the 80s. And I'm sure the people before me in the 70s didn't all agree either. I mean, I can't imagine that they did. We just wrote letters in the 80s, we couldn't get online and tell things. But by the time you got around to writing the letter, you were probably like, nah, I'm not gonna do it. I mean, you gotta mail it, put a stamp on it, take it to the post office. So it was a lot more than just I'm mad, let me get online and tell somebody what I think. That's, the internet's been wonderful for us, and it's been awful for us at the same time. If there was anything at all you could change about your personal history or the history of GLLA, would you change anything? About me personally? I know for me personally, I would have stayed in college in the 80s and not gotten out, which my parents tried to talk to me about it, to not leave college. I was very much the social person, and being social was very, very important to me. But I finished everything I started now as I've gotten older, but I think I would have stuck with it and not, I think I was so excited though, about discovering this world, and it was so important to me. So maybe if I had have changed that, I might not be doing what I'm doing today. So maybe I shouldn't change anything. Maybe I just should accept everything the way it is. And I think GLLA has been just fine. We've been just fine. We've had mistakes along the way, and we correct them for the next year, but every year you have something that you say, oh, that doesn't work now anymore. And we're gonna change it for the next year, and we do. And the board and all the people that help with this, we just all make that happen. Ms. Kendra, I would like to thank you for an amazing interview. And again, I extend a personal heartfelt thank you to you for including the fireside chats in GLLA weekend. You're welcome. I'm glad we can do it. And I'll look forward to more. So thank you.