 Hey, I'm Susan Lee Parks and we've been doing this show in the lobby of the public theater for, uh-oh, I don't have my video on, Jordan, I'm just talking. Hey, there you are. Hey, we've been doing this show in the lobby of the public theater for 11 years and we've also been doing it in various venues all around the world and Howl Round. So thank you for the public theater for helping us organize this. Howl Round came on a few years ago and has been helping us live stream. And certainly has been helping us bring this format to you guys. We did it four weeks in a row and then we took a couple weeks off and now we're back and it's good to see some familiar faces and some new faces. And so this is what we do. We work together for 20 minutes and then we talk for the remaining time about your work and your creative process. We have plenty of time to do that. And what we don't have time for is for you to read specific work and for me to give feedback on it. But we always like to talk about your work and your creative process because we like to keep it open and accessible to everybody. And Audrey is going to tell us how to get in touch. Should you want to ask a question? Thanks, SLP. Yeah. So if you want to ask a question and you are inside of the Zoom, all you need to do is click on the button that says raise your hand. It's likely in a participant tab at the bottom of your screen if you're on a laptop or the top if you're on an iPad or tablet. If you have any issues with that, feel free to shoot me a chat in the group chat and I will help you out. If you're watching the stream on HowlRound.tv, you can tweet at us at atwatchmeworkslp with the hashtag HowlRound. And if we have time, we'll get to those questions. And you can also tweet at the public theater at atpublictheatre.ny or go to our Instagram. And that's it. So many ways. So many ways. So many ways to get in touch. OK, so we're going to work 20 minutes. And then we're going to talk with you guys after. OK, here we go. Beep. Yeah. So that was 20 minutes of working. And now we have the rest of the time we got for questions from you guys about your work. Anybody got a question? Yes. We have somebody who actually just wrote to the chat. And where did they go? Armando, I'm going to unmute you. Can you say your question out loud, Armando? Because I know you typed it to me, but unfortunately, it has a race from my chat. Huh. Armando, are you there? Hear me? Yeah. I can hear you. Thank you. Thank you all. Thank you, Susan Lawyer, for. I can't see my face. There you are. You're here. Hey there. I made it. Yes, I actually was working on this piece and doing these workshops that you have as we helped me try to process this, the crazy. And so my question is I'm working on this piece, which is becoming the sort of hybrid theatrical piece where I'm taking a public figure and I'm putting a classical text, it's a Shakespearean. I'm trying to match it together. And I'm trying to say some things. Things are happening in any way, social things are happening, so the commentary is about what I said and all those things. I'm just trying to figure out how to make it work, where it's not also didactic, where it's fun and it can be crazy and stupid and it can be like what it wants to become. It's kind of like the title, because I'm just asking for somebody who's like structured for your work. So you build them to your script and if you can just kind of talk to those things. I appreciate it. Talk about structure in terms of whether I mean different structures for different things. You know what I mean? I mean, form, there was a great poet, Charles Olson, who said form is never more an extension than an extension of content. So the idea is that form and content are together, you know, the one thing. So you can't just say, I think I'll just have the form like this and then shove the content into it, you know what I mean? Form grows out of content and content grows out of form. So if you have like a a known character and a Shakespearean kind of text, then I think you've got your structure already, right? Because you've got kind of a Shakespearean text, right? I mean, are you going to follow that structure or? I'm kind of am, but I'm like sort of taking it. It's kind of I'm taking the structure, right, of the play. And I'm sort of I'm almost like creating a rehearsal. It's almost like this rehearsal that's happening of the play. And this this sort of like strange overlapping of, you know, the the public figure and that. So I'm obviously using the Shakespearean text, right? And then then the narrative. But I'm also trying to like pull away from it and almost show like how this is problematic in itself, if that makes sense. It does, but I don't know how to give you feedback. Because, you know, it's it's a it sounds like a great project. I mean, how far are you along with it? Are you have you written a first draft or not? Not a complete first draft. It's right now like there's scenes. There's like monologues. There's some scenes, you know, and I have like all this kind of like state direction and like notes around what's happening. And do you know the story that you want to tell? Not the theme, not the message, but the basic story? Like what happens to the characters involved? Yeah, I feel like what's I feel like the story that sort of wants to stay around is just sort of like how, you know, how as a say, as a person of color, you sort of try to navigate these systems that are not created for you. And you sort of try to like triumph and you try to push yourself and in order to do that, it's almost like you have to break. It's like you have to break and you sort of put on these masks to get to this place. And then what happens when you get beyond even the understanding of yourself where even what your identity is has to a point that's like almost a point of no return. And that's the story. You mean you see what I'm saying? Like, right, you're right. I mean, so as much as you can focus on, I mean, because that sounds like the kind of issue, you know, the theme, you know, as much as you can also focus on the story. Like what does your character want? What are they doing happens to them in this scene? What happens to them in this scene? I mean, could you think of any Shakespeare, any, you know, one of Shakespeare's plays that we know and love? It's a story about a character or series of characters, right? First and foremost, that's what it is. OK, and then all the themes come kind of later, you know, as you as you as we unpack the play, the themes and the issues and the relevance to today or yesterday or whatever come later. So as much as you can focus on your story of your character, what they are doing, what they want, what happens to them from scene to scene to scene? Where are they in the beginning? What are they trying to achieve? Where are they at the end of the play? Or at the end of the story, if you want, you know, OK, focus on the story at least as much as you're focusing on the. Architecture of it. Because again, form and content are connected like plot and character are the same thing. OK. So as much as you can tell yourself the story of your play. Got you. And when you're like holding on to that story, right, like if the character says, like, I want this, you know, and you're sort of like trying to kind of like listen to that voice, you know, amongst the other, right, stuff, the noise. Is there is there anything that you would say, like, how to listen better to that character? Well, if they say, I want this, like, follow that. Do you know what I mean? I want this. OK. You want to be, you know, I don't know. You want like Hamlet, you want to find out who killed your father and avenge your father's death. OK. How are you going to go about that? You know, get into conversation with your character. How are you going to go about that? How do you want to achieve that? What are you going to do to get that? You know, does that make sense? So if your character says, I want something, then your your next question is, well, what are you going to do to get that? Who's in your way? Who's going to help you? Yeah. You know. How do you see what I'm saying? So and again, if you're using the Shakespeare play, great. You can read other Shakespeare plays to really study the form. If you're, you know, if you're cool with that kind of architecture, you know, it's a great way to learn architecture. Thank you. You're welcome. Good question, man. OK, so I might be on multiple screens, having a weird Wi-Fi moment. But the next person is Bernita. Can you hear us? Bernita, Bernita. Yeah, can you actually unmute her? I'm in a little trouble. I can't. Oh, yeah. Can I? Yes, you can. First, sometimes there's just a little delay there. There you are, Bernita. You're unmuted. Fantastic. I see you, Bernita. Hi, SLP. You were missed over the last two weeks. Oh, thank you. Yeah, no, thank you again. Excited that you're back and it's really been encouraging participating in this workshop over the last few weeks. I actually don't have a question today. I was just coming back to share that after my last question around my article on gratitude and COVID-19, I did finish it. It is now published. It's out in the world and it was totally helpful. Like my very much my quarantine experience has the running theme is like the gentleness, gentleness, gentleness. And it was still relevant the next week when it went out. And yeah, I just appreciated your support and it did get done. Oh, fantastic, Bernita. Congratulations. Great for you. Really, really great. Congratulations. That's why we're here. That's why we're here to cheer each other on. So great job. Yeah, thank you. What are you working on now? Oh, great question. Um, when I was actually sketching this afternoon, I guess like now I do have a question. I have a autobiography that I want to help get done. Um, the the subject is someone that I really admire, Norwell, worked with her. She has I've had several discussions with her, you know, like, when is your book going to come out? She's now in her early 80s and has had this amazing life. You know, like she's the person that pulls out like, oh, yes, like this is where I was marching in Washington with, you know, all the great leaders or, you know, this is when I was backstage just such as a fashion show. So an amazing life. And but there's some block there. There was someone that she's been working with. She's not happy with that writer. But I have not been able to persuade her to give me a shot at being the person that helps her write her book. So just any thoughts on like what can be done when there is some block there with the subject that you want to write on or getting the person to open up because she's expressed. She's not happy with her current writer. But I don't know how to like kind of present myself as a potential person. Right. Right. She's not happy. I mean, so you want to help someone write their biography or autobiography, want to help someone write theirs. And they're they're working with a writer right now who's helping them, but they're not happy with that writer. And yet they aren't ready to work with another writer, specifically you. Yes. You really want to hear what I have to say. What else do you want to write? Oh, I just let that go. You know, hey, you know, put your make your intentions clear and if they aren't interested in working with you, you can always say, hey, my door is always open. I'd love to work with you and then work on, you know, turn your attention to something else that you want to work on. And maybe they'll come around and want to work with you in a month or so. You can touch base with them in a month or so and say, just checking in. But I would personally I would wait until they turn toward you and want to work with you. OK, OK, that's personally that's what I would do. One other thought I wanted to ask it because she has seen my writing and she has expressed that she feels that I'm a good writer. She's always like, this is such a great piece or great articles that I've written. The one other idea was do you think it would be helpful to say like, what if I wrote a page or what if I wrote a sample chapter that kind of gives and gives thought to the direction I'm thinking for this? Would that be helpful or am I just better off? Well, I mean, I mean, you know, I like to, you know, it's like dating. I like to go out with I mean, I'm married now. But, you know, I like to go out with people who want to go out with me. I don't chase people, you know what I'm saying? I don't chase people. So I feel like if you want to chase, I mean, there's a lot of stories. Sure, you can go and woo her and write for her and and try to. Sure, if you want to do that, that's great. That's a great idea. It is, you know, if someone does not, but no, if someone does not. She thinks you're a great writer. She's going to get if she wants to give your chance, great. But it sounds like she might be for who knows reason. Maybe she has a contract signed with this person. You know, she is a meshed with somebody who she is not pleased with. You know, it's it's like, you know, you're you're trying to date someone who's in a relationship. OK, OK, you know, you can you can show her your good writing. You can write something on spec. She can take it and say, hey, it's my biography. I'm going to use it for my book and not hire you. You know, I would want you to while you're doing how about this do both while you're doing if you want to show her an example of your writing and show her what a wonderful writer you are. That's great, Vernita. And in the meantime, also think about something else that you want to write that's yours. OK, OK, just just focus on yourself. Focus on you. You know, we can only, you know, it's it's like that watch me work. Here I am. I'm sitting at my dining room table doing watch me work. People you guys show up and ask questions. Great. If people don't show up, I can't help them. You know what I'm saying? I'm not going to run out and try to get people to, you know, you know, some people we can only do so much for folks. You can show her a work sample. Great. But in the meantime, I'm concerned about you and your writing and your writing that's coming from you. Because I hear you not giving that enough attention. That's all. OK, that's all. So I care about you. That's all. So do both. How about, OK? OK, OK, OK. I'll be back. OK, great. I'm glad. All right. Thank you. I'll be here. All right. Yeah, up up next, we've got tomorrow. Tomorrow. Can you hear us? Let's see. Sorry for all the tech issues today. You never had tech issues. I know, I think your internet was weird yesterday. It's like a whole thing. It's like a whole thing. Thea, can you unmute tomorrow on it? Thank you. Can you hear me? I can hear you. Hey, there. I can't. I can't see you tomorrow, but it's OK. I can hear you. So I'll listen really closely. OK, then. Oh, there you are. Oh, yay. I've been wondering about rhythm and language lately because I'm in 12th grade now, and our final project is giving a TED talk to the grade. I'm also doing a poetry slam with some friends. And though I know that rhythm is important, I find myself often tweaking it too much when I'm writing instead of focusing on getting my message out. And I know that rhythm is just one of many tools that are to do so. So I'm wondering how you approach, like, how much time does it make sense to give to that aspect and that technique as opposed to looking at things on the whole. The reason I'm asking you this is because I saw that you're a musician at a playwright, so I feel like you'll have good perspective on this. What do you think? Ha, I am. It's again, it's a delivery system. Rhythm is a delivery system, right? Even when we're not trying to speak in a rhythmic manner, you can hear in the words, speak in a rhythmic manner. That's rhythm, right? Everything we say is in a rhythmic manner. If we want to convey, say convey our message, right? So I would say focus on what you want to say and the rhythm is going to reveal itself to you the more you focus on what it is that you want to say. Right? Does that make sense? Maybe not. So would that mean, like, deprioritizing, like, say, rewriting a sentence a few times and more focus on getting it out and then coming back to it? Do you stand up and speak your words aloud when you try them out? No. Try that. Do you get your body into your language? No, I'll try that. Because language is a physical act. Well, a lot of us think that it's something that goes on from your, you know, top of your head to your neck, right? It's an intellectual exercise. Well, it involves your whole body. So when you speak, right? You're using your whole body from your head to your feet, all your fingers and your arms are moving. Not that you have to dance around like that. It doesn't have to be a choreo poem. Jesus Christ, it doesn't have to be that. You don't have to be like Saki Shange, although that'd be cool, right? You should employ rhythm. It's just like, it's just like character. It's just like architecture. It's just like form and content. Rhythm is an integral part of your language. So what you want to do is maybe when you read your piece out loud, stand up and deliver it, right? I mean, if you give a TED talker, are you gonna give your TED talk sitting down? No. Maybe, you gotta stand, right? Yeah. Are you gonna move or are you gonna just stand really still? Oh, I'm gonna move. Oh, you're gonna, so you got to practice moving, girl, right? Yeah. So when you haven't written, you have a first draft or a second draft or whatever. So then I want you to try standing up and saying the words like you mean them, right? Because you're not gonna be like a, what? Does that go for wallowing in the middle of the crafting yet? Sure, why not? Okay. You can stand up and write. Okay. Sing it. You know, say it. You're gonna say it out loud. It's a TED talk. It's not a scholarly paper that we sit and read, right? Even though those can be rhythmic and beautiful too. Put your body into it. All right. Yeah, persuade people. Move people. To move people, I think you've got to be moved a little bit yourself. You know, language is a physical act. Remember, it's a whole body experience. You're transmitting energy to people. It's not just thoughts. It's energetic vibes and shit. Okay. All right. Thank you so much. And you're in 12th grade. Are you graduating? Yes. What are you guys gonna do for graduation? I don't know yet, but I'm looking forward to hearing the Obama speak. That's gonna be great. Where do you go to school? I go to Manhattan High School for Girl. Congratulations, Tamara. Congratulations. Yay, you're in the class of 2020. We're counting on you to pull us through tomorrow. So, thanks. Thanks for being fabulous. Thanks for coming by. Yeah, there you go. Yeah, you start moving, girl. You got to start moving your whole body, getting into it. Okay. All right. Thanks for stopping by. All right. You're hysteric. You got two computers. Here I am. We're doing it. Next is Kathleen and we're gonna unmute. Did it work? Okay. Can you hear me? Yeah. All right. Okay. Well, it's very cool to browse the gallery and look at everybody who's here and just be so mystified about what they were writing in the first 20 minutes. I'm a historian, so my question might be a little bit offbeat, but I'm looking for tips on how to integrate more dialogue and anecdote into my, I hopefully not so dry history writing. I mean, somebody who's really good at this is like Hillary Mantle. I mean, her dialogue and her historical novels is just fabulous, but if you can expire to that, but I thought a playwright would be a good person to ask. Well, I mean, I don't read much historical fiction, but I read like, I read years ago, like biographies or like Simon Schama, you know, who makes it. He's great. Yeah. So for me, history is about people, right? So you wanna get, as you know, so you wanna get as much of the, instead of just what they're doing, maybe what they're feeling, you know? I mean, this is all things you probably know already, though, Kathleen. Well, I don't know. I just know that I've been doing it for a long time, but I don't do it well. And I write non-fiction history, not historical fiction. Not historical fiction, but so you have to adhere closely to the historical record, right? Yes, I definitely use a lot of sources and research. Right. But in that historical record, you can, if they say, you know, the historical figure went to town on foot, right? That day. I mean, maybe that's in the historical record, right? You can imagine, you can use your imagination maybe to fill in some of those gaps. Can you, are you allowed to do that? Yeah, actually, you just gave me an idea. I'm doing this thing on seating on the subway. Okay. I should put thought balloons in for people like looking at each other and saying, oh, will she move her packages if I stare at her enough? Or, you know, maybe thought balloons would be like a light kind of technique to do this. Exactly. But thought balloons, I mean, whether you're writing a graphic novel or whether you're writing just regular text, those thought balloons, what people are thinking, what they might be thinking, given the appropriate historical context. You know, just sort of your imagination can enter into the lives of historical characters to fill in some of those gaps, you know? Or you can take the snippets of letters that they've written and maybe expand on those or even use letters that they've written as dialogue, you know? Just allow yourself a little bit of freedom, I think with a lot of times when either we write, you know, we work with historical characters or write, you know, historical nonfiction, we feel very constrained, you know? But I think we're allowed to use our imagination a little bit in appropriate ways that adheres to the historical character, I think. Yeah, thought bubbles are a great way to start. Great way to start. See, you had that idea. That's great. That's great, actually. Have fun with it, Kathleen. Thanks for the question. Thanks. Amazing. Thank you, Kathleen. Up next, we're gonna have Carol Shiner Wilson. All right, Carol, do we have you? You have me. Hi, Carol. Hi, everybody. Hi. And Kathleen, I just yesterday finished Hilary Mantel's The Mirror and the Light. Wow. Wonderful insights to character all along the way, but it is arresting to read the last few pages as Cromwell is in the tower preparing for death and contemplating that and actually walks to the scaffold. It is chilling and real. So you haven't read it yet? Get at it. Wow. That question is this. And I'm a writer. I cannot presume to have written a play or a novel or much of anything, but I do love, I'm a reader too and I'd love to read. My question is about objects, concrete objects. So for example, and I mentioned it in the chat, when you have something like a watermelon in Last Black Man, or you have those incredibly fragile characters, the little animals in Last Menagerie, objects work magic. And I have a little piece where it's a kind of a tortured guy feeling very, very guilty. He's an addict. He's relapsed and he's sitting and he's trying to get all of this off his chest and he's tearing at a handkerchief. And that object to me expresses a lot. So maybe part of what I'm asking badly is to kind of help me help us unravel the magic. I can recognize when it's the right object. Because the writer's done such a damn good job. Could you talk to us a little bit more about objects and how, yeah, there's this concreteness, but they take on an incredibly meaningful life of their own. That's a beautiful question. I don't know if I have an answer. I think an answer I have is anything can be the thing. That's what I actually believed. Okay, so the Glass Menagerie, great. So he decided to choose an object, right? And he just, it's like, it was a bell. This is the bolt, you know? And he just kept ringing it, right? He just kept looking at it, contemplating it. And I mean, I'm guessing, I don't know how he wrote, Tennessee Williams wrote that play, but he contemplated it and it expanded in his mind and helped make the world of the play, for example. Last Black Man, my play, The Watermelon, expanded and made the world of the play. Any object can do that. You see what I mean? The handkerchief, my question is, whose handkerchief is it? Was it given to him? Was it his mother's? Was it his dad's with the monogram? You know what I mean? Does it have a smell? Any object can work magic. If you apply your attention to it, it's a rock. This can be a magical object, right? If you apply your attention to it, I think that's the key. A timer can be mad. Any object has magic. It's not like you have to pick the right object. You know what I mean? It's that you have to attend to it properly. And it will sing. All objects will sing. Does that make sense? Beautiful, thank you. Okay, so, and that's why we're lucky, because every, I mean, a phone will sing, or a rock, or a tube of, I don't know, toothpaste or whatever. We just, you have to focus on them. And they will sing forth for you and provide you with all the richness that your work, your story, your novel, your play needs. They will also maybe attract other objects or people, or, you know, they will start attracting, they will magnetize things to them, you know? Okay. Great, thank you. Yeah, thank you. It was a beautiful question, Carol. Thank you, Carol. We've got about five minutes left, and we're gonna go on to Hasan. Are you with us? Yes. Hi. Hello, hi. Yeah, and how are you doing, Ben? Hi, I'm good, I'm good. I feel a bit nutty of asking one more question, but I'm gonna sneak it in. It's been a little while. Yeah. So I've done this rewrite of my, this big epic play that is like Tarami and Juliet type of story, but certain in an Arabic context. And I think my main characters are doing well. I have three main characters, a kind of Rami and Juliet and an Iago kind of figure. Oh, great. And their objectives and their obstacles and everything I think is in place. Great. I think where the play is weak is on some of the more secondary characters. Now there are about 20 characters altogether in this play. I mean, some of them are just soldiers or messengers, but some have more kind of weight. So my question is this, is it helpful to write out for every character, for all the 20, even if it's very little, what is their objective? What is their obstacle? And what is preventing them from getting it, you know, the classic stuff to write all of that out for the 20 characters when I do my redrafting? With that, do you think that's a helpful strategy? Because I worry particularly about the parents of the two couple, that they often want the same thing. So you then wonder, well, why do I have two characters when I could have one? And I want to have two characters. I want to have two sets of parents, but maybe they're not distinct enough. Will that strategy to write out the objectives be helpful or is there some other strategy? Yeah. So are you concerned that you're gonna find that you don't need certain characters? Is that why you're holding back from this strategy? My gut feeling is that I need the two parents for the two sets of parents. Just like in Romeo and Juliet, we have both the capitalist and the Montague. But sometimes I feel, particularly for the mothers, I feel they're kind of following the fathers because it's a patriarchal society where the men have more of it. And I haven't yet figured out ways for them to be more active as independent characters. And I can just imagine being in a rehearsal with actors and the actress is asking me, what is my objective? What is my overall arc and all that? And I worry that they've repeated some of the same beats as the fathers. Right, right. So I would say employ that strategy that you talked about. Go through, I mean, do you have time? Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, of course you do. So you got a little time. So I would say employ that strategy. You've got 20 characters, that's plenty of time. You gotta take a couple of days, right? Two or three days maybe, a week maybe at the most to write out, even if it's just a line, this soldier wants such and such, you know? I think what's probably, you probably don't have a clear view of the parents. You haven't just done enough digging. So you just take a little bit of time to think about it. What does she want? She says, she might say she wants what the husband wants. But what does she really want? I mean, in cultures that are patriarchal or even in this culture, a lot of wives, yeah, I want what my husband wants. The guy goes, you know, in the kitchen, she's like, I got my own opinion here. I just say, I just agree with him because if I don't, then I'll be in trouble but I got my own thing going. So a lot of women operate like that. A lot of men do too, you know, creating harmony in the household and then when the spouse is at a distance they speak their true mind. This might be true of some of your characters. You gotta do a little digging, okay? That's great. You got the time, do your digging and yeah, and create lovely, and then you do your digging on paper and then you do a pass for each character. So when you're rewriting, you go through and you say I'm gonna follow character A and follow her through and okay, good. Now I'm gonna look at character B and I'm gonna follow her and I'll follow him. Okay, you just go through and you do a pass, just kind of checking in with each character through your whole play. Right. You know, so first you do a sheet. Yeah, go ahead. Maybe you just gave me a thought as I was saying that maybe my problem is that I've got the parents in too many scenes together and maybe what I haven't done is to separate them out as characters and have them be in scenes with other people where something else is revealed. Yeah, very good, very good. Maybe that's a start, yeah, great. Yes, yes, yes, yes, very good, great idea. See, you had a great idea. Great, thank you so much. Thank you so much. You're welcome so much. Thank you, thank you. It's six o'clock. It's six o'clock. We did it, we made it through. Tech and all, I'm so sorry. No, no, this is great. Audrey, you're fantastic. You're fantastic. Hey, hey, hey, hey, hey. Thank you all so much. As always, sign up by 3 p.m. Eastern time every single day and I will send you a link between three and 4.30 p.m. Yeah. Thank you. Love you, we love you, we'll see you tomorrow.