 Insecurity has become a hot topic in Nigeria, from Burkha Haram to killer Hertzman, unknown gunman, banditry and now full-blown terrorism. Now as we take a look back at 2021 we will be analysing and discussing the challenges and breakthroughs in the fight against insecurity. Well this is Plus Politics. I am Mary Annacoff. The issue of insecurity is still on the front burner just as it was in 2021. Various issues ranging from school kidnappings to killings, attacks on the NDA, extremist insurgencies, the killings of 44 journalists in the past year and so on. Now how has the government dealt with the issues so far? We're joining us to discuss this our legal practitioners Ladikwa Johnson and Tungi Abdulhamid. Thank you very much gentlemen for joining us. Thank you, good evening. Thank you. Yeah thank you for joining us there. Happy New Year to you too Tungi. So it might not be the best of ways to start the new year but of course insecurity is an issue that continuously you know bedevils the country whether it's be north, south, east or west. I'd like to start with you Tungi. The question on everybody's mind is now that we're in 2022 can we finally heave that sigh of relief in terms of insecurity and hope that government will not just pay lip service to this issue but of course make sure that it becomes something of some sort of a back burner issue and not what it is today. Unfortunately that answer is beyond me now because we are just starting 2022 and bear in mind also that I have not seen the government policy that is different from what happened in 2021. We are seeing not having a plan in our head. We are not doing the right thing. We are doing the same thing the same way and we're expecting different results and it's not possible. We have not done enough recruitment. We have not done enough investment in fighting equipment. We have not done enough in terms of ensuring that look things that will be required to fight this injury are being provided. The way fears of our soldiers are not being taken care of adequately as it is today. So it would be difficult for me to sit here now and say in 2022 will be a different scenario. Until I see those plans being put in place that's when I can say look it may be different from 2022. Talking about plans I just like to quickly take us back to 2021. January of 2021 we saw the defense headquarters telling us that you know I'd like to quote them directly. On December okay I'll start with January of 2021 the military high command said that the nation's armed forces was now winning the war against insurgency and other forms of criminality across the country based on appreciable results recorded in the various theses of operation in 2021. Now again the acting director of defense media and operations Brigadier General Bernard O'Neill still in 2021 at some point made a declaration while briefing defense correspondent on the operational activities of the armed forces of Nigeria saying that the armed forces was winning the war against terrorists and bandits. Again he also said during the year that the troops had neutralized cause of terrorists and bandits while they were on their different operations. Let's not forget that as at yesterday two terrorists have been killed by a bombardment an air bombardment carried out by the Air Force. This is something that is applaudable but many people like you are saying you still haven't seen a lot that is being done but that is something isn't it? No it is it is that's just a statement the main statement I've not seen much. You know we have been having these statements from LA not even 2021 even for over four or five years ago we have been we are winning the war the Boko Haram have been designated the insurgents have been this and that so many adjectives have been used to qualify them and to say whether or not they are winning. I don't know the yasi they are using to determine their winning formula this regard but we at me as a citizen let me let me say we I have not seen it I'm not seeing the the winning formula in this regard I've not seen how they are winning the war because day in day out we are hearing about insurgency we are hearing about panditry we are hearing about people being kidnapped it's not safe for anybody to just travel and have now you see recently but all the the trains have been attacked on Abudah Road and some other area like that so if you are talking about winning the war I don't know what they are talking about in that in terms of winning I don't know the yasi I don't know the criteria that they being used to determine whether or not they are winning back to me I'm not seeing the winning I'm not seeing how the war has been won by by by by by by by the government it is we're not doing enough in terms of uh uh telling their activities we are only reactionary we wait them to for them to attack us before we take actions so and which is not good for for us we the the the criminals may have changed their tactics probably they are not a data in the particular place just like before whereby they will know their sandbisa sandbisa or some other places are there and they they they will come to the town attack and and withdraw but that may not be that may not be the issue today but they have changed tactics and they they and they they are doing other harmful acts in this uh country the that's when we have banditry we have kidnapping we have so many other uh arms of a uh criminal act to these days so how the government is winning the war would require more espalage and for me to be able to to determine whether or not this is right but as far as I'm concerned with what's on ground I want to put what I'm seeing I'm not seeing them winning the war as it is now okay uh mr johnson let's start by looking at the kidnappings we saw school children being kidnapped again and again and again same process and nothing was done they would take them to you know different places and we had to negotiate for these children to be released we saw the attack on the NDA we even saw Boko Haram hoist its flag close to the FCT I mean 2021 held a lot for insecurity and looking back at 2021 what are the things that you think that government could have done better uh other than just paying lip service to this fight well um the insurgency kidnapping banditry are not things you face by conventional means I think that um I'm not a security expert forgive me but from where one is sitting you look at it we've been looking at it for god knows how many years now and and you wonder why certain things haven't changed the borders are porous they're still porous no no improvement um the other day just after christmas or before christmas after christmas I went to Badagri beach and within such a short time we had about I don't want to exaggerate about 20 or so checkpoints or more in fact way more police police customs immigration NDA these that that and they went checks they were tax collectors is that simple as that so so nobody checked your car nobody checked your papers only one checkpoint did they open the boot only one they didn't check papers they didn't check anything and I saw as the commercial vehicles were going before us there was paying toll gates fees and everything now if you're going to face this you need to improve on your intelligence gathering I believe that um I might be wrong the government spread the defense forces thin because of the concentration in the eastern part of the country I poor not I poor but this is that that is a different thing from the um banditry and what happened in the northwest so they spread themselves thin I do not know to be honest we do not know we're discussing it what has been done to improve on intelligence gathering what I see is that minister for information and his ministry I don't even think we have a national orientation agency anymore yes we do okay I haven't seen anything well they they come alive just before the election okay that's right I haven't seen them getting us Nigerians behind the armed forces it's an important thing I've seen one or two videos from the army itself you know you understand saying that we're working for you we're doing this and it's fantastic if the people in the northwest northeast or so are not confident enough to go to the military barracks you say someone has come into our area we suspect him and things like that you will not as um my um colleague there my learned colleague said we're playing catch up it's so clear that we're playing catch up we haven't taken it to them I'm not talking about um the cardinal state governor spoke about carpet bombing how about the collateral damage have they considered that and the forest no go areas to people who do things in the forest legally how do you know they're not there when you want to carpet bomb the place you understand so one begins to wonder but unfortunately you and I are not in the position to really deal with this matter because we don't have intelligence reports before us and we don't know enough about what's going on still talking about what we know Governor El Rufi has said that these bandits need not be negotiated with they need not be forgiven because there are some people like Sheikh Ahmad Gumi who is still pushing that these people not necessarily be killed uh that they should be um given some form of amnesty and he's saying no the amnesty that these people should receive is in in death um so if he's saying let's kill all of them how do we know these people because that's another problem that the army and military officials have these people look like the people in the northwest so how can you tell one from the other exactly if you had proper intelligence and if you had a system in place whereby the moments you get them during conflicts you understand when you arrest someone who has an ak-47 and after a gun battle or so how do you process them what happens we haven't seen uh them being taken to court or having a tribunal for it or do you understand what i'm trying to say we we we don't know what is going on so for those millions of Nigerian youths who do not have political reasons but feel that oh this business is moving that's kidnapping because we're unemployed there is nothing that has acted as a deterrent to them you understand all these things take the carrots and stick approach the government must be firm when you are firm and you deal ruthlessly with some people some will come to the table quickly do you not think the government is being firm so far i mean we've had cases where the chief of army staff came out in same 2021 to say that that we should not be cowards we should rise up and fight for ourselves we cannot give us guns and licenses to carry but then that's they won't do that that's chaos that's against our constitution again change the constitution again the we remember that the nia boss had also declared some parts of the country at a time and no flies on this is the government being decisive is this not decisive enough or is it that these words or these statements by the government is not matched with the same power talk is cheap you make statements as um learner colleague said ah um boko haram has been decimated you make these statements and so your people with the people no longer believe in what you're saying with the people someone like lai mohammed for instance with the people don't really believe him anymore because he's made so many statements on different things why would they believe him trust him as the messenger and say yes our troops are doing this well it's all disjointed when you make such statements as you said yes it's good to be firm you must be firm within the context of a set of actions you don't just say something and then the next thing someone has a temerity to attack the nda well let me come back to you to nji let's talk about the um the let's call it an amnesty program you know that the army at some point decided that they were going to rehabilitate these um gunmen who decided to um give themselves up and say they were repentant and this is this was not just burka haram members this was some bandits also and for the army they were very impressed and they decided that they were going to go into this rehabilitation process but as we speak i do not know where that program is going because most of as the army itself again reported that most of these people who were rehabilitated went back as spies to burka haram unclean they were taking back information to burka haram so there are people again who are still kicking against this rehabilitation program one they're asking how these soldiers who have fallen in battle as a result of fighting these men how they are family members and their colleagues would feel what will happen to the immoral there are also those who are saying what about the family members and and the children of those who have been killed by at the hands of these same people who are now trying to say that they're repentant what about you know how this makes us look plus the fact that these people still go back with intel to the same terrorist to come back and hit on our people so we're looking at it on all sides how does this program help let's not also forget the taxpayer's money so used in this rehabilitation process they're giving clothes they're giving food the man who took one of our young girls as wife came back into the country with her and a child what happens to that man will he be taken to court um you know will he be tried for of course child abuse because the girl in question was a child at the time she was taken and of course terrorism these are questions that are begging for answers what are your thoughts and you see those things you've said you've answered all the questions you've said it and you've answered all the questions directly because it is even ridiculous for him because even think of that policy at all it is ridiculous because it's insensitive to the to the people who are the victims of those of those people because how can you how can you even consider giving anybody pardon or whatever form of amnesty when he has killed people when he has a main people he has rendered people homeless he has turned the country into another thing in fact they've rendered our economic value less and all those things and you are still considering for for amnesty when those who are victim are somewhere you call idp they cannot even eat they cannot even sleep well they're not even enjoy anything and you are you are you are you are celebrating people key them who rendered them homeless who rendered them who has rendered them made them become widow and widower and you are widower and you and you are you know it's ridiculous to even think of that program at all to to think that you just reject somebody and then give him you see we are having this problem in this country of in security because the government seem to have a make a crime a good venture or a good business in the to say because a a situation whereby i commit crime you beg me or pardon in the name of your part you are you are doing amnesty or whatever you offer me a good things of life money or some other facility or even job that people are looking for free of charge and then you say other people will not think of a going to the same crime you see with the government is not even very well because there's no way people are not being punished i'm not aware that most people who have been arrested or taken for committing this crime we're talking about any court facing any trial any criminal serious criminal action is the institution whereby government itself will give excuses for why people are committing crime we are i i i remember a governor in particular part of the north i think it's something also i'm not too sure of the of the state giving excuses for why people are committing the crime they are committing that's the those are called banditry and another another another quantity is that we try to always say in an attempt to to help those who are committing crime we've trivialize the crime by looking for a adjective to qualify what they're doing i don't know i don't know the difference between banditry or insurgency those who are committing the killing people and kidnappers i don't know the difference between them they are all criminals and they deserve to face the consequences of their heart by having tried at the court of law and we have mercy and pity for them i don't know why and if you have mercy or pity for people or sympathy for people who are committing crime there's no way that that crime will stop the crime so the government is not doing the right is not do the right thing in in covering the crime so these are issues that i should be looking to people are the our armies are there fighting living losing their lives and people are outside who have been making them to sleep outside their houses are being compensated how do you think they will feel they will feel bad and that would not help anybody so as far as i'm concerned the government attitude towards the worst fight of this towards this the fight is not encouraging at all and cannot even give them better results because they are not doing the right thing as far as i'm concerned we have we have enough we have what's called this we cannot get to whatever the votes we are told it cannot be used for those who have not been declared a terrorist what you know got what you know acquire the the what's called the facility well i'd like to the agf the agf was quoted yesterday on on tv for to say that the reason why certain things have not been put in play is because they're trying to make sure that they do it in you know is in line with international best practices he even talked about the issue of you know naming these bandits as terrorists because people were asking why it was taking too long for the government to you know start dealing with these bandits as terrorists and he's saying that that the reason why they're stalling is because they're trying to work in line with international best practices but uh you you wanted to say something i just want to i i'd like to disagree with the agf in that because he has only been talking and no action he told us he will release the name of a those who are controlling the this crime or this why i've not seen any he told us like how many how many how many year how many month does he take him to conspire by ipop why is he taking them too long to prescribe what are people are committing crime so as far as i'm concerned it's just it's just a little whatever he's saying as far as far as i'm concerned okay yeah i was just going to say that regarding the amnesty thing even if you're going to grant amnesty first you take them out of circulation you understand let them begin to serve their time get as much information from them as possible process them i'm not saying touch on them process them you've taken them out of the theater of war you've reduced that side and then you can then begin after you have dealt the blow you understand to say okay for this and that because you have cooperated because you've given us information we don't just give you amnesty for putting down weapons you must bring something to the table you've committed crimes you don't just give amnesty like that and then you now hit let millions of Nigerians who cannot afford to go to school you now let them hear that you want to send some of them overseas for studies it's interesting let me just bring something in recently the sotan of so kuto alagisa adab wabakar talked about the fact that lack of love is responsible for insecurity in Nigeria and the very famous human right to activist dillie farrell team he said something and i'd like to just you know put that he says that it would not be true that lack of love is the problem he says the absence of equity he says justice and the rule of law are responsible for everything that is wrong in the country and i want to ask you a question before we wrap things up at the at the heart of this insecurity there obviously is something there is a wrong that is that's allowed for this to brew because we've also seen in 2021 um the fact that they have been more and more non-state actors you know coming up i mean the biggest of them is sunday bow and khanu but there might be more of these people because of the loophole that these things have created so yeah i think that um there are two two ways two sides to it yes lack of equity fairness justice equal opportunity economic opportunities educational opportunities will cause that has led to part of it especially the mandatory aspect um unemployment things like that that's one the other one is that you have people from outside have been coming in there's no lack of opportunity there it's the opportunity they've seen the lack of security the insecurity and whatever that's the opportunity they're taking they're coming in to cause mayhem for whatever reason either religious i'm talking Boko Haram either religious either i don't know ideology or what have you so we're fighting not just one we're fighting several battles and unfortunately it seems that our government and i dare say the um hierarchy of the armed forces they seem to be at their witsend they seem to be in the deep end you know not knowing what to do they're just throwing the army at them you need a different form of um i'm not a security expert but it's obvious that this is a different form of um thing and the economy will not improve if there's insecurity it's a vicious cycle and if it doesn't improve you have more young people unemployed inflation going up more people want to rob and government can't do anything you have a police force that is not totally engaged so the governors continue to negotiate and every time you give them money they have more money to buy weapons and the borders are still porous you are not doing anything with the immigration with the customs with the borders so those who are coming in will keep coming in so we have a lot of problems well this is a sad one but on that very gloomy note i'm going to say thank you to latifah johnson to mjadullah me the both legal practitioners on our next segment we're going to be talking about of course the fact that we are in campaign season and the elections are around the corner what needs to be done but gentlemen thank you for being part of the conversation thank you all right well we'll take a quick break when we come back uh we discussed security challenges facing the campaign and election season our guest is standing by stay with us