 Kenny, thanks so much. The floor is all yours, your opening statement. I just want to start by saying thank you, James, and everyone with modern day debate for organizing this debate content. That's an honor to be here. Also, Matt, thank you for engaging in this debate. I actually want to gift you a copy of my newest book, Your Right to Self Identify My Right to Disagree. It's a token of our friendship here, new friendship. All right, so I'm ready. Let me just grab a quick drink of water, man. Okay, is Islam true? This is a wide range of, there's a wide range of topics that we could discuss on this question, but we obviously can't get to them all. So what I'm going to do during this debate is I'm going to focus on signs revealed in the Quran and prophecies of Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, that have been proven historically, as well as with modern technology. This is not a debate about whether or not Islam promotes terrorism. It's not a debate about the character of Muhammad, peace be upon him, or any of his wives. It's not a debate about the thousands of hadith that exist. We're here to discuss the truthfulness of Islam as to what has been proven verifiable. And unlike Christianity, by example, that encourages people to walk by faith and not by sight, Islam does the opposite. Islam encourages mankind to challenge its truthfulness through discovering the use of logic and reason when approaching faith. Quite simply, God consciousness can only be built on a firm foundation of knowledge. This is why the Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, said that seeking knowledge is an obligation upon every Muslim. So this brings up on my first point. Islam encouraging mankind to challenge it, to challenge its truthfulness in the Quran. In nearly 1,000 verses of the Quran, Allah repeatedly challenges mankind to ponder, think, and reflect on what has been revealed. Allah says in the Quran, by example, this is a blessed book, which we've revealed to you, Muhammad, that they might reflect upon its verses in that those of understanding might be reminded. In another verse, Allah says, this is the book of which there is no doubt. It's a guidance for those conscious of Allah, who believe in the unseen, who establish prayer, and who spend out of what we have provided for them, and who believe in what was revealed to you, Muhammad, and what was revealed before your time, and of the hereafter, are certain in faith. They are on true guidance from their Lord. It is they who will prosper. So while guiding mankind to truth, the Quran addresses believers, disbelievers, and hypocrites alike. And in contrast to the view of some religions, as I mentioned, that pressure their followers to rely on blind faith, the Quran expresses the importance of reasoning and seeking knowledge, very important, and frequently asks people to use their intellect. In nearly 70 verses, the words for the root takul, meaning to reason, have been utilized in the Quran, and the Quran addresses those who refuse to reason as well by making very, very striking statements against them. By example, Allah says, as to those who disbelieve, it's the same to them, whether you warn them or do not warn them, they will not believe. Allah said to seal over their hearts and over their hearing, over their eyes as the veil, woe to them for the penalty that they bring upon themselves. In another verse, Allah says, and we have certainly created for hell many of the jinn and mankind. They have hearts with which they do not understand. They have eyes with which they do not see. They have ears with which they do not hear. They are like livestock, rather they are more stray. It is they who are the heedless. So the Quran describes some people as being like livestock and being worse than animals, because unfortunately there's some people, some atheists in particular, and I don't think that's gonna be Matt here, but by example, they use arrogance and sarcasm and hatred and mockery when discussing the mere existence of a crater. Just the mere existence, just the mention of a crater, put some of these people in a state of annoyance and they react unreasonably. And while animals lack the ability to use logic and reason because they rely on instinct, there are some people who refuse to reason or when they claim to do so, they do so unfairly or with bias or without proper knowledge. And when it comes to Islam, they reject it for what it is and condemn it for what it is not. And the reason being is because they have no true knowledge about what Islam teaches. They think they do because of the media. And so Allah says in the Quran, it is he who sent down to you, O Muhammad, the book, inner verses that are clear and precise, they are the foundation of the book. And there's others that are unspecific. And as for those in whose hearts is a deviation from the truth, they will seek out those that are unspecific, seeking discord and seeking an interpretation that is suitable to them. But no one knows it's true interpretation except for Allah. But those firm in knowledge say we believe in it, all of it is from our Lord and none will grasp the message except for men of understanding. So simply Islam is the way of life that was exemplified by every prophet and messenger, peace people on the mall, all of whom submitted their wills to our crater, culminating in the final revelation being revealed to the prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, via the Quran. And the Quran has a universal message, it guides and make humanity to recognize and worship our creator alone. And in the midst of a very pagan and polytheistic seventh century Arabia, the prophet peace people on him went from being loved and respected and known for his truthfulness before revelation came down to being hated and despised and attacked and mocked after he began receiving revelation from Allah through the angel Gabriel. But despite the persecution against the prophet peace be upon him and just a small number of early Muslims, the prophet peace be upon him kept spreading the message of Islam confidently to the point that Islam spread very rapidly. This is gonna bring upon my second point. Islam spread very rapidly in a very short period of time gaining thousands of followers. It expanded from in an incredible rate from Mecca to Medina to Spain to China, Africa and here we are in 2022 and it's the fastest growing religion in every country in the world today. Which is my second point. The expansion of Islam is revealed in the Quran and in authentic adith. Allah says in the Quran, they want to extinguish Allah's light with their mouths but Allah will complete his light even though the disbelievers dislike it. And the next verse is it is he who sent his messenger with guidance in the true religion to make it prevail over all other religions even though the idolaters dislike it. So we see this to be true. According to the Pew Research Center in an article in TRT World published in December 2021, they state that Islam is not only the fastest growing religion in the world today in every country but it's also projected to be the largest religion of all by the year 2075. They say and I quote, indeed Muslims will grow more than twice as fast as the overall world population between 2015 and 2060. And in the second half of the century will likely surpass Christians as the world's largest religious group end of quote. So that's according to another article in 2017. They're by proving the prophecy of the Quran true as well as well in seventh century Arabia where it became the dominant religion as well as in current and future times we see it gonna be manifested. It's already being manifest now as we speak. This also coincides with my third point the prophecy of Muhammad peace be upon him in which he stated that Islam will enter every household as a sign before the death judgment. It's narrated in authentic adith narrated by Ahmad and his Musnad from Tamim al-Dawri who said that he heard the prophet say and I quote, this matter of Islam will certainly reach every place touched by the night and day. Allah will not leave a house or a residence but Allah will cause his religion to enter it by which the honorable will be honored and the disgraceful will be disgraced. Allah will honor the honorable with Islam and he would disgrace the disgraceful with disbelief. And so in a very short 1400 years we see this coming to pass. Islam has organized religion in short 1400 years has grown exponentially even in times when the Muslims have been at their weakest and despite all the negative propaganda and the Islamophobia and so forth that has been utilized to attack and demonize and villainize Islam today. Islam continues to be discussed and if you factor in 9-11 alone by example whether or not you believe Muslims flew planes into buildings or not. The fact is that every day since the world's been talking about Islam and we see the manifestation in a very variety of different ways. This is just one example. Thereby fulfilling the prophecy of Allah that mentioned in the Quran as well as the final messenger of Muhammad peace be upon him about Islam's growth and expansion. And speaking of expansion, I'm gonna address some key points regarding the creation of the universe regarding the Big Bang, the universe initiating from smoke as well as the continuous expansion of the universe and a few other items. Allah says in the Quran, we will show them our signs in the universe and within themselves until they know that this Quran is the truth. For those who don't know, the words for verses in the Arabic language is ayah which literally means signs. And so Allah says, we'll show them our signs in the Quran obviously. And so regarding the Big Bang, Allah says in the Quran, are the disbelievers not aware, challenging you think, are the disbelievers not aware that the heavens and the earth were joined together and that we ripped them apart and we made every living thing from water, which is another point I may address here shortly. And then ask the question, will they not then believe? In the next verse, it says, and he turned to the sky when it was smoke and said to it, he said to it and the earth, come willingly or unwillingly. And they said, we come willingly and obviously everything submission to our creator. And this brings upon the fifth point. It's a miraculous that was revealed in the Quran over 1400 years ago. The universe initiating from smoke as Allah just mentioned. And we see this to be manifest and true over 1400 years ago before modern technology could prove it, Allah described the universe as being initiating from smoke. And in 1991 and the New York Times, they publish an article titled, The Big Bang, Mostly Smoke, that describes the universe in this form in the form of smoke. And in that article, they mentioned a book titled, The Space Atlas by Heather and Hindbest and on page 50, they have a photograph. And along with that photograph is a quote that says the following. A new star forming out of a cloud of gas, which is a nebula, which is one of the remnants of the smoke that was the origin of the whole universe. This is not the Quran saying it, this is years later, but this has already been revealed in the Quran 1400 years prior. They go on to say in that article that in 1974, David Shram was a part of a young up and coming team of astrophysicists who carefully inventoried the contents of the universe and concluded that it will continue to expand into infinity for all eternity. And so this brings on another point, the expanding universe. Allah says in the Quran, in the heavens we constructed with strength and indeed we are its expander 1400 years prior. And in 1925, we see that the American astronomer Edwin Hubble, you can read about this on Hubble's law explained in studiesmarter.us, if you'd like to. But in 1925, the American astronomer Edwin Hubble was supposedly the first to prove that the universe is expanding. He proved that there's a direct relationship in this article. They say that Hubble proved that there's a direct relationship between the speeds of distant galaxies and their distances from the earth. This is known as Hubble's law. So obviously unaware once again that Allah already revealed this information via the Quran 1400 years prior about the universe expanding. The article goes on to say the following, and I quote, there was no such information that existed before Hubble's discovery. Hubble suggested that space is expanding from the Big Bang and the acceleration of dark energy and that galaxies outside of our own are moving away from the fastest. The ones that are furthest away are moving away the fastest. And so this is remarkable. It's obviously revealed 1400 years prior to this article coming out. This brings upon my next point. The sky being revealed in the Quran is a protective canopy or ceiling in some translations. Allah says in the Quran, and we made the sky a protected ceiling or canopy, yet they turn away from its wonders. And so what does this mean? And how is the sky a protected ceiling and what does science say about it? Does science confirm and confirm rather what the Quran has stated here? Well, yes it does. An article titled the magnetosphere on nasa.gov, they state the following, earth's internal magnetism creates a region around the planet known as the magnetosphere. And while several planets have magnetosphere, the earth has the strongest one of all the rocky planets. They state the following, our magnetosphere is a vast comet shaped bubble and it displayed a crucial role in our planet's habitability. They go on to say that life on earth initially developed and continues to be sustained under the protection of the magnetic environment. The magnetosphere shields our home planet from harmful solar and cosmic particle radiation as well as erosion of the atmosphere by the solar wind and the constant flow of charged particles streaming from the sun, end of quote. So in the very next verse after Allah mentions the sky being a protective canopy or ceiling, it says the following, it is He who, it is Allah who created the night and the day and the sun and the moon, each floating in their own orbit. And so in an article titled proving that this information didn't exist before Hubble's telescope, but Allah revealed this 1400 years prior. And in an article titled the five little known facts about the sun's journey through the galaxy, written by Bruce Normandy in June, 2020 in Forbes, he says the following, the sun makes one orbit around the Milky Way roughly once every 225 million years and it's thought to have made this journey some 20 times since its earliest days as a protostar. And he says that we now know the orbital speed of the sun and its galactic orbit to be better than 2% accuracy and the sun is nearly in a circular orbit with a slight ellipticity of about 5%, confirming what Allah says in the Quran 1400 years prior. And the moon also in its own orbit, Earth's moon and solar system.nasa.gov, they state the following, the moon makes a complete orbit around the earth in 27 days and rotates or spins at that same rate or in the same amount of time. So we see this to be confirmed. Which brings upon my ninth point, changing the creation of Allah, address the following points regarding cutting the ears of cattle in particular, that's very important and also addressing the transgender issue in my new book, the book that I just gifted Matt with. Your right to self identify my right to disagree. So I touch on these items in that book. Allah says in the Quran, direct your face towards the religion and climbing to truth and adhere to the natural order of Allah upon which he created all things and all people. No change should there be to the creation of Allah. That is the correct way of life but most among mankind do not understand. So I want to remind everyone that people in the seventh century, if you're not aware, they used to cut the ears of cattle as part of their superstitious dedications to the idols, kind of similar to someone that would carry a lucky rabbit's foot today. So they would cut portions of animals off and they thought that it was some type of trinket that would give them some type of luck or they would pray to it or sacrifice it to their idols. And so while in modern times, scientists condone cloning experiments by cutting away tissues from animals' ears and bulls in particular. Allah says in the Quran regarding this that after he cast Satan out of paradise that Satan responded to him and he said, I will mislead them, meaning the people obviously, I will mislead the people and incite vain desires in them and I will command them to cut the ears of cattle. This is what Allah says 1400 years ago, right? I will command them to cut the ears of cattle and I will command them to tamper with Allah's creation. Allah goes on to say, whoever chooses Satan as a patron instead of Allah is utterly ruined. Satan makes them only false promises and raises false hopes in them but Satan's promises are nothing but delusion. Such people have hell for their home and will find no escape from it. So I want to remind everyone that there were no branches of science or studies of genetics or embryology in seventh century Arabia. There were no high-powered microscopes or cloning of animals taking place then like there is today with the advancement of modern technology. So we have to ask the question, what does Allah mean by, He says that Satan will cause people to cut the ears of cattle. I already mentioned the superstitious dedication to false deities and idols, right? In the seventh century. But in current times, in the 1990s, Dr. Jerry Yang worked for the University of Connecticut to refine the cloning of cows and bulls through the use of adult cells harvested from these animals. Dr. Yang collaborated with Japanese scientists in 1998 to clone a prized bull with cells cut away from that animal's ears. So in this ongoing vein and these delusional efforts to better the creation of Allah or alter it in some way, we see that these people are trying to seek to improve our God, our creator's creation in hopes to increase cattle size and weight and high milk production and so forth. However, they're creating abominations when it boils down to it. According to the New York Times, they state the following. They say failure in cloning is far more common than success. And you can read about this in futureworking.com about the advantages and disadvantages of these attempts. But they say it's failing overall. Now consider this vanity in regards to, like people in modern times, people in the seventh century and the time of the Prophet peace people on them. I mean no offense by any of this, but people used to alter their appearance by filing down their teeth and tattooing themselves, getting piercings, trying to change the way they changed themselves in a variety of ways. Men would claim that they're women and women would claim that they're men, just like in today's world. And so in current times, we see the transgender movement has males claiming that they're females and vice versa. As we see people getting lost in empty hopes and delusions, just like the law says in the Quran that they would do because the fact is, despite any physical mutilation of the body or medical costuming or playing gender charades that take place, I mean no offense to anyone. But the fact is that it doesn't alter someone's DNA. The DNA is God given, it's God created and it's a person's DNA that decides their sex, not someone's hopes and delusions and the way they think and they feel and their emotions, it's not based on that. That's a false hope, just as the law said. Which brings upon my last point. When the Prophet peace people on them said is a sign before the day of judgment that a group of Arabs, nobads of the Arabs would be competing eventually as a sign before the day of judgment erecting tall buildings. The Prophet was asked about this and about the signs of the final hour and he said the following. You'll see the signs of the last day when you see the barefoot naked destitute shepherds competing in constructing tall buildings and when asked to elaborate further he said this group would be of the Arabs. So for anyone who's familiar with the history of the Middle East regarding this prophecy brings to mind a very specific group, the Bedouins or the Bedou, they were nomads of the Arabs and in a documentary from the 1970s on Abu Dhabi and the United Arab Emirates the narrator said that the Bedouins were a major portion of the Arabian population and that the United Arab Emirates was mostly inhabited by Bedouins just 40 years prior and now they state that it's littered with skyscrapers. As a matter of fact on skyscrapercenter.com it lists the 18 of the 100 largest tallest buildings in the world, tallest buildings in the world are actually in Muslim countries. With the tallest building in the world being the Burj Khalifa being in Dubai and Abu Dhabi, the United Arab Emirates rather and okay and the number three ranked being the tallest, number three tallest building in the world being the Royal Clock Tower and Mecca being ranked number three once again. And so they go on to say in this article that only just over 40 years ago a simple Bedouin villages existed where skyscrapers stand today. So not only is that group just as the prophet peace be upon them prophesied competing to erect tall buildings they're actually leading the race. So in conclusion I started by mentioning that Quran guides people to consider the signs in order to establish faith through reasoning and seeking knowledge and so forth. And so the second point I talked about the expansion of Islam and it being manifested above all religions and I proved that by the studies of Pew Research Center Islam entering every home as a sign before the death judgment and also the signs that I mentioned about the universe that have all been confirmed with modern science. Thank you. Thank you very much. We'll kick it over to Matt for his 20 minute opening statement as well. Thanks so much, Matt. The floor is all yours. So hey thanks everybody for hanging out. It's been a long day and I'm a little ill but I'm gonna be okay. Assuming I can read what I jotted down here. So is Islam true? I have a t-shirt that I've been selling that says I wanna believe as many true things and as few false things as possible. It's basically the cornerstone of what I've been saying for two decades. But what do we mean by truth? Because for me, generally speaking, truth is that which conforms with reality. That which is known to be so. So there's the fact of the situation. It may be true that there's a diamond shaped exactly like my head on Mars but we have no way of knowing it. So there would be no way for us to sit here and say oh it's true that there's a diamond shaped just like my head on Mars. We would have to actually demonstrate that that's true before we could assert that it's true. This demonstration is important and there's a side question that I had earlier which was if the debate is Islam true, does that just mean the Quran? Does that mean various tenets within Islam? I don't know, I'm open to any of it. I would assume that if the Quran were true that would probably suffice. But we still don't know what that means to say that the Quran or Islam is true. By the way, if I mispronounce anything or whatever else I'm just an ignorant fucking American and it's my fault. But if we're to say that there's a difference between saying something is true, we know something to be true and we suspect or we think something is probably true. And to tell the difference by and large we tend to use a standard of any reasonable person with an understanding of the subject viewing the available facts should affirm the fact is true. Now look at the debate topics today. Generally, we're talking about competing views. Destiny and I aren't in disagreement about abortion. We're in disagreement about the best strategy with which to argue for the same position. Most of the topics though were value judgments where you start with a set of facts and you go from there. What should we do? What ought we do? Is Islam better than atheism? Which by the way, I wouldn't have done that. I would have done humanism but I get why we go down that path. But for most of those topics, those value judgments came from facts and not a debate about the facts. Not X is true. So you could debate whether or not the earth is flat if you wanted to. But that's about convincing others of your opinion about a fact, not about demonstrating a fact. You demonstrated by getting flat earthers to test it and prove themselves wrong in a documentary which you can watch on Netflix. The seed of this chair is 18 inches off the ground. We could measure it. We don't need to book a theater and get an audience and have a debate about the relative height or the absolute height from the floor to the base of this chair. We can just measure it. You can't show up also with your own non-standard measure. You don't get to show up with your own ruler and say, oh, this one says it's 18 inches or this one says it's 43 inches. We have to have some standard that we're agreeing on when we're talking about determining whether or not something is true, whether or not we have a good reason to believe it's true, whether or not we're in agreement or should be in agreement about whether it's true. So watch for that. What is the criteria on which Kenny and I are assessing the veracity of the claims? Is that criteria accepted for the task? And by the way, I didn't ask, are you okay with Kenny? Yes, absolutely, yes. I apologize if I didn't. But you also can't point to the Quran to demonstrate that the Quran is true. That's ultimately circular. That is the book that is making the claims and you would need, it can record the evidence as well, but you would need external confirmation of evidence. You can't confirm claims with feelings unless the claims are about those feelings. And you can't speak and reference spectral evidence or divine revelation unless you can demonstrate that there actually is such a revelation or some sort of spectral evidence. There's an important notion within scientific concepts which branches outside of that as well, which has to do with falsifiability. And simply speaking, a proposition hypothesis is not testable unless it's also falsifiable, which means in principle there must be something that would show that it is not true. So if you say the hypothesis is there are only white swans, that would be disproved falsified by finding a single black swan. And that's all it takes. You could search the entire universe and if all you ever found was white swans, you wouldn't actually confirm it, but you could disconfirm it by finding a single black one. That's what falsification is. You cannot have a model that is essentially a panacea that is a one stop answer to everything because now there's nothing that is not consistent with that model and so that would be falsifiable or that would fail to be falsifiable. There's also a difference between saying a claim is true and a claim is false or a claim is not true and a claim is not false. I've used courtroom examples before, hopefully some of you have heard them where essentially there's a difference between you're voting not guilty or not guilty but you're not voting innocent and while there's a presumption of innocent, if you say I'm voting not guilty, that does not mean you are convinced that the individual's innocent. I hate to kind of have to go down that road but generally speaking if we're gonna say something is true then the alternate position people would expect to say oh, if Kenny's saying that Islam is true, Matt must be saying it's false. No, I'm saying it's not true in the sense that it has not been demonstrated to be true. I'm not convinced whether or not it's ultimately falsifiable so it would be a mistake to say that something is false if you can't show it's falsifiable. So what are the standards of evidence that we're gonna use? If you're going into a courtroom, in some of those courtrooms it might be beyond a reasonable doubt and others it might be to a preponderance of the evidence but as far as I can tell, Islam doesn't even meet the lowest standards, claims about the supernatural aren't testable. They don't even rise to the height of being able to have probable cause to bring a case to consider. You can't use spectral evidence, you can't point to divine revelation unless you can actually demonstrate that that's the case and you can't go into a court and say God or Jesus or Allah or whoever told me to do this and expect to get acquitted. You're probably unfortunately more likely to receive psychiatric care and evaluation. That doesn't mean that what you said was false and it doesn't mean that you're delusional but it does mean that your belief has not yet been demonstrated to be true at anything beyond a rudimentary level. Are there truths in Islam? Absolutely, it would be a miracle if there weren't that there's any book that contains factual information or even speculation about who we are as human beings that would manage to get absolutely everything wrong? That would be more miraculous than anything I've seen. But what portion of Islam is true? What percentage of it is true? If I have a list of 10 facts and eight of them are clearly true and two of them aren't, is the list true? Would it be fair for me to say that this is a true list? It would be more accurate for me to say this list is mostly true, it's majority true, whatever. But if that package, are we gonna require absolute perfection because if we require absolute perfection, Islam is dead as a door now from the beginning as are many other religions because there's always gonna be some error, some mistake and I'll probably get to some of them at some point. But what if the facts in question are the ones that are uniquely part of this package? Whether we're talking about Islam or Christianity or wokeism, if you have a list of things that are the tenets of this particular view or the package deal of this view, what if the eight that are correct are fundamentally trivial and are true in pretty much any worldview? Love is good, kindness is good. That's not anything that is necessarily tied to one specific ideology. Even if you were convinced they were true, they do not testify to the truth of the ideology that includes them beyond that one single point. For example, humans exist. There must be some explanation for that fact. Some people propose that a God exists as an explanation for humans existing. And some people go to a specific God. Isn't that the one that's pretty much the whole ball game? Isn't that the one that matters? Quite often we have rather vague attempts to demonstrate that a God exists, where we're not being very specific about which God we're even talking about or what those characteristics are. It's just, hey, we look at this big universe and it seems like there's some guidance or creator, therefore there's this and it leads to a cascade without any further evidence leading to a specific God. I would argue that you can't realistically claim that the package is true, unless the uniquely distinct facts from that package are demonstrated to be true. The other factors are either trivially true or tangentially true. Quite often when we're engaged in these discussions, what we have are appeals to poetry, metaphor, interpretation, whenever the literal reading doesn't seem to match reality and whenever the literal reading can be interpreted in such a way where it matches reality, that's what we get. Which ends up being a win-win scenario. So anything that appears wrong is either misunderstood or context. Anything that appears right is a win. I'm sure some of you have probably seen websites, this is not what I'm doing, but I'm gonna go down this road for just a second, of lists of things that are wonderful in the Quran or list of things that are wonderful in the Bible or list of things that are true in the Bible or true in the Quran. Or amazing claims that we don't understand how somebody could have actually known this. But you'll also find lists pointing out the problems with these books. If you look at a list about problems with the Quran, you may see a list of false claims, interpretations, metaphors, you might see stuff about seven earths, seven heavens, geocentricism, creation in six days or time periods, which is actually a meaningless distinction. The earth was created before the stars, the moon was split in two and put back together. Beautiful stars protect us from evil spirits, just like this pen keeps pixies from stealing my wishes. The sky is a guarded ceiling that can fall. Humans were made from clay. Sperm originates from between the backbone and the ribs. But what about specifics? Because each one of those could be read in a context where if you begin with the book must be true and a law must be correct, there's some way to read that so that it matches up with reality. Even if it shouldn't, even if it wasn't intended to, there's some way to do it. All organisms were created in pairs. My understanding is that's what the Quran says. That is false. It's absolutely false. There are Parthenogenic species. I'm in the process of possibly buying some agama, some laylapas in Gavantre, which I've mispronounced horribly. So I should have just gone with Wiptoe lizard, which is another lizard that is Parthenogenic. But if we only ever needed to show that one statement from the Quran was false in order to falsify the Quran in total, that's it. We're done. I'm not doing that. It's silly. It doesn't get us to where we need to be in this debate. But if anybody ever tells you there are no errors and no mistakes in the Quran, just ask them why it says everything comes in pairs if there are Parthenogenic species that don't, that are entirely female. But we don't have to prove which statements are false, even if we can. They have to show what's true and they have to show this truth beyond the trivial. I could post all kinds of factual issues that are waved off as a translation problem, but what about direct instructions that are supposedly coming from Allah? I didn't know about this. I'm not gonna pretend I know or understand it, but it is something that I read about, which is in Surah 4, 11 and 12, where it talks about dividing up your property to your children and family and things like that. And if you go through and you do the math, to the male, a portion equal to that of two females, if only daughters, two or more of their shares, two thirds of the inheritance, if only one or shares half, it continues on and in the first verse it ends with, and Allah is all-knowing and all-wise. And then in verse 12, it goes on, like with extended family and other things like that and concludes again with, this is ordained by Allah, Allah is all-knowing, most forebearing. But the shares don't add up to 100% in either of those. Now, okay, maybe it's a scribal error. Maybe it's not a big deal. But I think if you're the all-knowing, all-wise governor of the universe and you're passing on your wisdom on how to divide up your belongings, we could at least get the basic math right. But worse than that is, I find it strange to think that this is the one correct set of instructions for how to divide up your property. Taking not into account which of your sons worked for you and which one was more lazy or any other circumstances around, if you need to know how to divide up your property, boom, it's all done right here. And it must be correct because it says that it comes from the all-knowing, most forebearing, all-wise God. If we find a human body and it's dead and we wanna figure out what the explanation is for that dead body, there's a package of beliefs that we can put together, a model, a hypothesis that leads to a potential theory to explain, for example, that the butler did it with a candlestick at 9 p.m. Even if we confirm the weapon, that does not prove that our model's correct and that the butler did it. And if we find out, for example, that the murder took place at 10 instead of nine, that also does not completely destroy the model because we can edit our model and say, hey, we're gonna revise this because we have new information and as long as we're consistent with that, we now have a new model. And we can explain the incorrect time. This is how we go about explaining things. We have something, we explore it, we come up with a hypothesis, we test it and confirm it, we try to falsify it. It has to overcome other proposed explanations. So what facts of Islam need to be demonstrated to be true? Well, I would say the existence of a God would need to be demonstrated to be true, that the God has the characteristics they cite and claim, that the specific desires and commands of that God are as they claim, that Muhammad was a prophet, not just claimed to be or asserted to be, but was a prophet, that this was someone who spoke on behalf of a God, that he was the final prophet, that the various tenets about prayer and submission and its moral pronouncements are true and accurate. And they can try to provide an incomplete picture by pointing to passages that they can't explain the origin of. Here's something in the Quran that we found that we just don't know how they could have known this. Without even asking the question, did they know it? Did your interpretation in reading things into it? Does this mean somebody actually knew it? Just because there's something in there that appears to be consistent with something we found later, doesn't mean that the person who wrote it knew it. That's an assumption that would need to be demonstrated. Instead, what we often get, and I don't really know what we'll all see tonight, but propagandological fallacies that give an impression of a God but not confirmation of the fact of a God. So where's the evidence? And they might say, okay, on atheism, how do you explain the universe? But that's neither an argument nor is it evidence for their conclusion. Even if atheists have no explanation for the universe, that doesn't mean that theirs is correct. The majority of the population in over 49 countries is Muslim in some version. But the number of people who believe something has no bearing on what's true. So let's try this. My understanding is that from the standpoint of Islam, the purpose of existence is to worship God. How can you show that's true? If you make a list of all the distinct truths or truth claims from Islam, I would say that one should be on the list, right up there with there is no God but Allah to worship God is the purpose of life. That would be a core tentative of Islam. How can you show that it's true? If I have a purpose for my life and my parents have a purpose for my life and a God has a purpose for my life and a government has a purpose for my life, how do we know which of those purposes is true? Isn't it my life? Am I not the one that decides what the purpose of my life is? Now my Muslim friends will say, no, Matt, it's not your life. Your life belongs to God, your life belongs to Allah. But that isn't true merely because they say so or because their book says so. And even if a God came down here and told me that my life belongs to him, that's merely that God's opinion. Now I might not be able to do anything about it. He can squash me like a bug, wipe me from existence, whatever. But it's still, I still get to say, no, no, my purpose is this. So how do you demonstrate that it is in fact true that the purpose of life is to worship God? You demonstrate this with evidence that should convince a reasonable person using standardized accepted criteria to determine truth. You can pull out your purpose measuring device, I'm not aware of any. You can pull out your purpose detecting device, I'm not aware of any. And you can demonstrate that it is simply true that the purpose of life is to worship God and you'll almost have me. And then you can try to do the same for the other core tenets, proving angels and afterlives and soul and the God and what the opinions about the God are. But you need to start by proving, I would say, something like it is true that the purpose of life is to worship God. Until that, I don't see how anyone can say that Islam is true. Thank you Matt for that opening statement as well. We'll go into the rebuttal section for the rebuttals. These are about 10 minutes with that. We'll kick it over to Kenny for that first rebuttal. All right, thank you Matt for that opening statement and I'm gonna start with where Matt ended because, alhamdulillah, so this is something regarding the purpose of life that Allah has explained to the Quran. Mentioned to someone earlier that there's a verse of the Quran in which Allah, before he created us as human beings on earth, that he tested every soul, he questioned every soul asking, am I not your Lord? This is verses of the Quran that are within the Quran. But he questioned every soul asking, am I not your Lord? That each soul testified yes and said yes you are our Lord. And that Allah tells us in the Quran that he created, the only purpose for his creation of men and the jinn are to worship Allah. There's a specific verse that says, I have not created the men and the jinn except to worship Allah. So there's a clear, precise verse within the Quran that tells mankind the purpose of life. It is really the only book on this planet that literally says these words, why we are created. Only to be tested by our Creator and only to worship our Creator in all things that we experience. Whatever hardships we have, whatever blessings that we have, we're to worship our Creator in the midst of every bit of it. We're being tested by those things that we are given in this life and we're also tested by those things that we're denied. Now, Matt started by saying that we need to have standards that we agree upon. And I respect that and obviously that's the route that I was going with my opening statement. There has to be things that can be verifiable. And that's why in my opening statement, I mentioned the importance of the Quran actually directing us and I mentioned the Prophet peace be upon him by example, also saying that seeking knowledge is an obligation upon all Muslims because Allah's challenging mankind to test its truthfulness with things that can be verifiable, not things where we give our opinion and so forth. I mentioned the verse of the Quran in which Allah says that there are certain verses of the Quran that are the foundation of the book. They're the clear statements. They're the foundation that we can rely upon. People of the most simplest of intellects can comprehend. And there's other things that are not, they're more vague and they're not specific. But those in whose heart it says and those in whose heart seeks is disbelief. They seek those verses that are unspecific in order because they wanna create discord. They wanna argue about them and because they don't believe a crater exists inevitably in summary. But the fact of the matter is that we have things within the Quran that are verifiable, that we can set a standard by, that we can test by modern science. Now you consider the verse that I mentioned earlier where Allah says that is we who created the heavens and the earth and we split it asunder and we created the heavens with strength and we are its expander. Now there's no other way to look at this. The word expand means expand. It means yesterday and today and tomorrow. When the book says over 1400 years ago, referring to the universe, that we created the universe with strength and we are its expander. What does that mean? What is that gonna tell the human mind to ponder and reflect upon? Remember I mentioned the verse of the Quran that says, we will show them our signs in the universe and within themselves until they know that this Quran is the truth. That means that there's gonna be a period of time where this is gonna take place, where this understanding is comprehension. People who are traveling in the days of the Prophet peace be upon them, they could speak directly to them and they could get a more understanding about what's going on. Even though there's verses that they couldn't comprehend, what does that mean that the universe is expanding? In the seventh century, they would not know what that means. This is a sign for us. This is why the word until in that verse, we will show them our signs in the universe and within themselves until this Quran is proven to them to be true in summary. Proving that it's true. And so, what is this telling us? It's telling us that there's gonna be a period of time in which mankind is gonna ponder and reflect on why would Allah say that we created the universe with strength, by example, and we are its expander. And well, lo and behold, we know with modern technology that the universe is expanding. No human being could have known that. This is something that is confirmed with science that no human being could have, could even guess about in seventh century Arabia. Matter of fact, they couldn't do it before Hubble's telescope was constructed centuries later. And so, we have to look at these things and be reasonable and say, okay, well, this makes sense. This is verifiable. This is something that I can set a standard upon. And when we consider the verses of the Quran literally in the Arabic language, as I mentioned, the verses are called ayah in the Arabic language, which literally means signs. We will show them our signs in the universe and within themselves until they know that this Quran is the truth. And so, we see these things being manifested. I mentioned the sun and the moon being in their own orbit, by example. This is new information. This is not something that the Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him would have known or even had access to in any regard in seventh century Arabia. So, we have to look and say, well, this makes sense that modern science, the Quran revealed this 1400 years ago. And although it took time for the Hubble telescope to come along to verify it and confirm it, it's been confirmed. It's something that we can set a standard upon and we can rely upon. And so, we have to be willing to open our minds and engage in these types of things and look at the research and look at the studies and ponder and reflect on the things that have been revealed and just as Allah has instructed mankind to do to challenge the truthfulness. So, there's many people who, as I mentioned the verse, I'm gonna mention it again, that Allah says that there's the certain verses that are the foundation of the book. By example, Surah Al-Khlas, which is, it says inevitably, it says that Allah is the one and only God. He begets not, nor is it be gotten. There's nothing that compares to Him and so forth. And so these are things that Muslims believe and we stand upon that. There's other things that are mentioned that we have to be willing to engage in considering what does this mean? By example, if you place someone in a desert region and you ask them, or even today, you ask just the random individual, how much do you think clouds weigh? Well, they're just floating in the air, birds fly through them, airplanes fly through them, they look like they're weightless inevitably. But Allah refers to the clouds, by example, numerous times refers to them as the heavy clouds. Well, why is that? Why would Allah refer to the crown, I mean the clouds in the crown repeatedly as the heavy laden clouds, the heavy clouds? Well, because the cumulus cloud, by example, the average cumulus cloud weighs 1.1 million tons, I mean a million pounds rather, 1.1 million pounds. Most people don't know that. You don't know that because you haven't taken time to ponder and reflect on what's being revealed and how does this apply, when Allah mentions clouds, well, let me look into the clouds and say, what does this actually mean? Allah mentions by another example about the joining of two seas that come together but they don't mix. And a lot of people, they see the certain picture where it shows two bodies of water, these are called estuaries and so forth, but it's been confirmed through studies of Jacques Cousteau back in the day and so forth that the two bodies of water that they're mentioning are the Mediterranean Sea and the North Atlantic that meet at the Strait of Gibraltar. And they actually don't, they don't meet together like this, they meet horizontally. And the science proves, as a matter of fact, I can read the information here if need be and I'll try to get to that. But they actually meet horizontally and they have a boundary in which they do not cross because the heavier Mediterranean Sea that has more salt content does not allow the lighter waters of the North Atlantic to mix with it. And so it's a clear, in the mentioning of the Quran, it says we join these two bodies of water together in summary, they join these two bodies of water together that have a boundary which they do not transgress. They do not cross one another. Well, lo and behold, modern science has confirmed that there's bodies of water that meet and they do not transgress. How could the Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, know this when he didn't live anywhere close to where two bodies of water met? He nowhere close to it. And if you're just looking out in the ocean and you're looking at bodies of water, you can't see a boundary within these waters. You're floating in the water if you're on a ship and so forth, you can't see that. Human eye can't see that. No, the studies in modern science have proven that there's bodies of water because of their salt content that come together that do not mix. This was revealed over 1,400 years ago and it is verifiable. It's a standard that we can live on. Thank you. Are we doing two of these, like a 10 and then a five or something? 10 and a five. The next one is five. Sure, thanks. So I try to take good notes. One of the things that we clearly have here is here's a bunch of things that are in the carot that were told are signs and they seem extraordinary that nobody can understand them. Now, I don't have an explanation for anything and everything that Kenny could bring up. I've gone through lists before. I was glad to see that we didn't spend any time on an embryo today, because I would think that an agrarian civilization that raised, I breed snakes. And so it's really easy to find out about embryos and things like that. I would also think that where water may perhaps not mix well or have difficulty mixing is not all that difficult to find about or to hear about when you have salt water and fresh water, when you have water of different temperatures, when you are drinking from a stream that's moving versus what it flows into. But you don't necessarily have to see all those things for yourself. There are ways to discover these things and somebody did. But at the end of the day, anything that was listed in the Quran, that was a statement about a scientific fact in the world was not demonstrably true until it was demonstrated. The Quran didn't edify anyone to gain an understanding of these things. It was, hey, science eventually discovered this and then somebody said, oh yeah, here's where in the Quran it says something like that or something that can be read this way or something can be interpreted this way. And in those places where it didn't line up as well, well, that metaphor, that's interpretation, that's different context. And so earlier when he mentioned that the passage says no one knows the true interpretation but Allah, it reminds me, I'm sorry, I'm a former Southern Baptist. It reminds me of the passage in the Bible that basically says that nobody knows other than God. And let every man be, or let God be true and every man a liar is the one from the Bible is the big one. And so I would extend that here as well and that if there is an interpretation, we're gonna say whether or not it's correct, I would want to hear it from the horse's mouth so to speak and not from the people who've interpreted things in different ways at different times depending on what other facts we knew about from the world. Can you side with the fact that Islam spread rapidly? This is amazing because that's exactly the same argument that I get from Christians that Christianity spread rapidly despite to them being persecuted. So now we have two different extensions of an Abrahamic religion and it would be really convenient if they would continue down the Judeo-Christian trend which Judeo-Christian isn't a real thing, it's just something people make up so that Jews and Christians work together to against a common enemy until they go back at each other head to head again. It's unfortunate but this all stems from the same route so it's really easy for them to say well of course there are similarities, well of course there are things where things are revealed there. And I have Muslim friends and maybe we'll get to questions or whatever that would say yes, the Quran cites the Bible and references that apart from it being corrupted, it's true but the Bible also holds that it would be the last revelation. So the Mormons last revelation of Jesus Christ or the supposed last revelation of the Prophet Muhammad are inconsistent with the facts of the Bible so I'm not gonna go down the route that some of my Christian apologists, friends have done were. If you say the Quran is true that means the Bible is true and if the Bible is true that means the Quran can't be true. That actually works and is a logical reductio out of serdom but I'm not gonna, I can't hold to that because I don't see either one of them as true. I don't even see either one of them as particularly remarkable. The fact that there are things in there that can easily be interpreted to be consistent with the facts of reality is cool and maybe we have a mystery. So like if you found an ancient book that said, Matt and Kenny are gonna argue about Islam until the cows come home. Just had a prophecy. When the waiter brings the medium rare steak I ordered is he fulfilling prophecy? If somebody knows there's a prophecy out there and they're seeking to actually make it come true is that still fulfillment of prophecy? Did somebody foresee it? This is why I said at the beginning the question that often gets overlooked is this is written down. We presume that this person knew the future but that's only because we look back in hindsight and say, ah, this is consistent with the future. It's a miracle. What if it's not? What if it's coincidental? What if it is a matter of interpretation? What if it's not particularly remarkable at all? Like oil and water don't mix, different waters don't mix. You, oh, heavy clouds. That could be poetic. If it turned out that clouds weighed nothing we would be hearing that's poetic. That same passage would be viewed as poetic as opposed to literal. So we need something that clearly delineates. Is this passage literal or metaphoric? And just because it's there, does that mean that somebody knew or made an actual prophecy? The fact that something is said and later seems to be consistent with the fact of reality does not mean the prophecy has occurred any more than when the horoscope in the newspaper tells me I'm gonna have a bad day and I have a bad day. That doesn't mean the stars get together and conspired to control my life. The spread of Islam to every household, by the way, also a Christian idea. Jesus isn't coming back until God spread the word to everyone, until everyone's heard. Go ye therefore into all the world preaching to all the nations, et cetera. Despite the fact that there's a village of Paraha that don't even have a God concept at all. And so there's question of, oh it was revealed 1400 years ago. I can appreciate the fact that he's convinced of that. I'm not. I don't think it was revealed 1400 years ago. I think it was written down and that it was interpreted later. But how do you show that it was in fact actually revealed? This is where we need something clear. Now, the Quran didn't edify anybody with knowledge of the physical world. It was science that had to discover what it was and what it wasn't. And that clarified the things that were interpreted. But the Quran talks about we will show them our signs. And he also mentioned about the actual verses is it ayah? Ayah. Which means signs. And that's neat except it's meaningless because saying something is a sign doesn't mean that it's a sign. And so what I was looking for was some confirmation of the purpose of life issue. And what I got was the book confirms its statement about the expanse and therefore it must also be right about the purpose of life. That is simply a logical fallacy. Even if the book were completely correct and even if you had good reason to think that there was foreknowledge predicting an understanding that would come about from Big Bang Cosmology later that in no way confirms that the book is also correct about what the purpose of life is. It doesn't confirm any of those things. And what's really strange to me is if you are convinced that whatever God or Allah however you want to phrase it gave you these revelations in such a way that it confirmed the truth of the whole book why wouldn't that same God confirm the whole book explicitly rather than implicitly? If I have a list of 10 things that are from my mom for her to do and my brother gives it to me and I say I don't believe that list is from my mom you'll have to prove it to me. And he goes through and he calls mom on the phone and he reads the first six things on the list and mom says yep that's my list and he hangs up. Has he confirmed the other four things on the list? Did you notice he didn't ask her that on the phone? You cannot implicitly confirm things through the reliability or apparent or perceived reliability of the source. I'm not convinced that the source is necessarily reliable I can appreciate that my Muslim friends are. But when we're going to go and confirm what is truth what has been verified confirming statements one, four, five and seven tells you nothing about two, three and six. We need explicit confirmation for each one of the claims before we can say this is true it may be true but we can't say that it's true just based on well I think it's reliable. I mean my mom's told me all kinds of things and some of them were true. Not all of them were true. Now I get it, once you're convinced that you're getting the information from the most high that changes things but it changes things in here and it's a bias that religions of all types have been plaguing us with for ages. Let me hide the logical fallacies from you let me instill confidence in you there's a reason it's a con game it's a confidence game not that somebody is intentionally trying to con you but we have all gained confidence in these supernatural claims. Well all right there's a few people who have been lifelong atheists but I'm an atheist now I have no supernatural beliefs but I was a Bible believer in walk and talk and Jesus died for me full on believer and I would have said some of the same things of it's in the Bible this way the Bible says this the Bible says this if I had been raised in Islam instead of Christianity I would have done almost the same thing with slightly different verses and I would have been just as fallacious no matter which of those turned out to be true or neither. Okay thank you so no offense to Matt I like Matt he's a nice guy but he's given his opinion about some things and what we need to do is we need to look at that which is verifiable that's what I said in my opening statement and that's what I presented here things that we can pond and reflect upon that we can confirm through modern science by example think about what's being revealed over 1400 years ago a lot says in the chron that he released the two C's meeting side by side between them is a barrier that neither which neither transgresses I mentioned and then ask the question so which of the favors of your Lord were you deny and another verse that says and it is he who released the two C's simultaneously one fresh and one sweet and one salty and bitter and he placed between them a barrier and a prohibiting partition. Okay so twice in the chron here it mentions a barrier that cannot be crossed right and we so if we wanna analyze that and we say okay well if you're claiming that a creator has revealed this 1400 years ago before modern technology can confirm it obviously out in the ocean you can't confirm that just with your human senses you just can't do it modern technology can confirm it and it has been confirmed you have to ask yourself why would it be revealed if not to guide mankind to ponder and think and reflect on what's been revealed in order to prove exactly what he mentioned when he mentioned about the that's a good example about the mom leaving some instructions for the child well we need to prove that that came from the source and the way to prove that come from the source is to verify the signs that have been revealed that are verifiable and by example so I mentioned these two C's and I mentioned earlier about the Mediterranean and North Atlantic this is called the Halocline phenomenon and an article titled Mediterranean Outflow Mixing and Dynamics they state the following we examine the outflow that begins in the Mediterranean basins which let me read this other part so it says it's a physical phenomenon called the thermocline or the halocline consisting of two layers of water with different qualities of temperature and salinity this means that they have layers that do not mix due to their different physical properties and when you go through the separation layer the mix we mix the two types of water producing light refraction phenomena that give us such a perplexing sensation of blurred vision because they're not actually mixing right and so these modern science has proven that these bodies of water they come together and they do not mix the laws revealed this 1400 years ago so if we're going to be reasonable as I mentioned in the opening statement we have to be willing to say let me consider how and what does this mean in 7th century Arabia when this book he said he believes it was written down obviously it was eventually written down but why would it say this why would it say even bring this up about two bodies of water coming together that do not mix if it's not a sign from our creator that he does indeed exist what's the purpose of it what other logical conclusion would you conclude or would you come you know what can you conclude about such a statement that we created these two bodies of water and between them is a barrier that does not mix how can humankind how could that motivate someone to join a religion how could that motivate them in any way other than to say okay this I see this as revealed and we see that the modern science has proven it how could this what does this mean we have to be reasonable we have to be willing to open our mind and say how could this verse why would this verse say this and does it is it confirmed with in our time in modern science yes it is now in the days of the prophet peace be upon them they had the luxury of living and eating and speaking to the prophet directly and so their faith was established based on the prophet's character and you know the things that he said the recitation of the crown alone that was just striking and they thought that he was working magic when the verses came but inevitably so they had different outlook towards it because they didn't have the luxury of the modern science that we do as a luxury to us as a sign before the day of judgment this is an effort from our God our creator to take those people who are analytical who are more prone to question science who are less prone to rely on just faith and so forth who aren't moved by their emotions they need something more scientific to gauge and base their decisions on and that is that's why these types of verses have been revealed for these types of people but these type of people have to be willing to open their minds to ponder and reflect on well how could this information have existed 1400 years ago thank you. So I don't have a handful of notes left that I don't want to miss one of the most important things is to touch on the fact that we need to explicitly confirm things and not implicitly you can't just say oh we confirmed this thing and therefore everything that comes along with it gets in so you also mentioned that Allah said that he tested every soul am I not your Lord yes you are as if before time before everyone that was going to exist was given this opportunity to say yes you're my Lord you're not how do you know that how do you know that's true how can I know that's true why can't a God who asked me before time if I'm his God talk to me now and confirm that I said that or maybe now I can say no you're not that this is when you believe the book you just take it all in stride what is the evidence that there is a God or that that God spoke to me before time began or universe began or however that you're gonna look at it to say am I your Lord I said yes you were I think I should know that I think it's absurd to suggest that it happened without my knowledge and that I'm gonna be judged based on it if we verify one thing that doesn't mean we verify the other oh well Allah is challenging us how do you know that because the book says he tested every soul how do you know that because the book says Satan will cause people to cut the ears of cattle yeah you talked about how they were doing that in one context that doesn't mean that verse has anything to do with cloning the fact that somebody else cut cows ears again is a serendipitous you know hey look it's like looking at Nostradamus's quatrains and trying to figure out which one predicted JFK's death when none of them do okay he's right I'm giving you my opinion that's part of why I'm here but one of the differences is that I'm talking about what methodology can we use to verify claims to be true I didn't come here with a list of claims that need verification all I did was come here to address the claim that Islam is true and how do we go about that what's the methodology because right now the only methodology that I've seen is trust the book and if you find part of the book trustworthy you should trust the rest of the book and it starts very early in one of the first things that got written down after no one knows interpretation the correct interpretation but Allah it starts with disbelievers are not aware that's literally poisoning the well that is literally a fallacy to suggest if you don't get this and if you don't believe it it's because you are a disbeliever who's unaware for whatever reason it's the same thing that I grew up with in Southern Baptist churches God's gonna reveal it to you later maybe you don't know that there's hope that when I get to heaven everything's good I'm gonna be told everything that's not biblical I don't know if it's chronic or not but it's not biblical that you're gonna find out everything but to say are they are the disbelievers not aware that heavens were ripped apart and made all from water no I'm a disbeliever I'm not aware of that but even if the heavens were ripped apart from the earth for which I've seen no evidence and even if everything living were made of water which isn't actually I mean if they said carbon you know we get carbon based life or they've been a little more impressive but yeah water's everywhere and we all have water cool maybe we knew that because when you slice somebody open and they bleed the last thing that comes out is water or that we pass water on a regular basis oh yeah maybe we're made there's lots of reasons that ancient people could have reached conclusions like that but to say aren't the disbelievers aware that I did all this no we're not and the way we become aware of that is for you to show up and explain it and demonstrate it or for your followers to demonstrate it with something beyond this book says so because I can point to other books that say other things that are somewhat similar in their impressiveness and unimpressiveness it's not surprising to me that over the course of the history of human beings we have tried to solve problems and we have come up with proposed explanations and some of those proposed explanations are gonna be super versions of humans it's really easy I can run you can run faster you can run faster somebody must run fastest it's a natural progression to I have power you have power they have more power somebody must have all power or most power this natural progression back towards the beginnings is what we're all looking for and the truth that a lot of people don't want to face is we hit a barrier we have no way of investigating beyond space and time and so that's when God's become part of beyond space and time exists beyond space and time which may not be fair I don't know for sure if if Allah is considered outside of space and time or inside I shouldn't have brought that up because that's not necessarily a fair criticism but to say that we have good reason to believe that the rest of this book is true because we've recently become somewhat convinced of some of these passages that were called signs as if they were signs but how convinced we are that they're signs is not in any way confirmation that they are signs we need explicit, discrete confirmation of any and all claims not just an implicit these couple are correct so let's swing them all in even if it got the expanse of the universe right that doesn't mean it got the purpose right or anything else all right, all right so Matt, do you mind if I open it up and okay, so thank you man so I wanna ask you a question regarding what I'm gonna present to you you'd mentioned that the Quran says that the disbelievers are not aware it doesn't actually say that it actually is asked questions about the disbelievers so by example I thought I corrected that right after because are the disbelievers not aware that I have split the so it's rhetorical trying to get actually get people to engage in what's being presented by example it says in regards to water by example you mentioned everything being created from water it's something that a lot of mentions in the Quran and four different verses and by example it says do not the believers see so it's asking the question do the believers not see and do they not take this information that's being presented and ponder and reflect on it so the verse says do not the believers see that the heavens and the earth were joined together as one unit of creation in this translation before we sent them asunder before we ripped them apart or sent them asunder and then the next statement that is made is and we made every living thing from water four times another verse says it is he who created a man from water another verse says and Allah created every animal from water and another the fourth verse says he it is Allah who created the heavens and the earth in six days and his throne is over the waters and so it keeps mentioning the waters okay but we see that this is confirmed and this is what I wanna read to you and get your opinion on this because we see that in regards to water and every living thing being created as water as Allah revealed 1400 years ago before modern science could prove it we see on Fastfax American Museum of Natural History they have an article there that says the following that the protoplasm is the basis of all living matter and the vital power of protoplasm seems to depend on the constant presence of water this is the science saying this it's in a book titled Lawson's textbook of botany the Indian edition London 1922 page 23 but we see that they're confirming this they say about 72% of the surface of the globe is still covered with water and it has been estimated that it is that if the inequalities of the surface were all leveled the whole surface would be underwater as the mean elevation of land sphere but you know so it says I read the part that you didn't need to hear please forgive me but it says it says in this next quote it says that all life began in water is also a conclusion to which our latest knowledge in biological science points and so the science is showing that all living create all created living things were created from water no it's not yeah well this is what the no it's not I just read it you read it and I listened to it and wrote it down yeah because the protoplasm isn't made of water it depends on what it depends on water that's not made of water if we're going to massage this you don't get to say the Quran says it's made everything's made of water and then say science says it depends on water because depends on water is not the same as made of water originating from the water is not the same as made of water water is H2O everything is not made of H2O okay so you remember I said that the verses of the Quran are called ayah signs and so the book the Quran is a book of signs not signs and so as you mentioned earlier and I agree and a lot even mentions it in the Quran that there are certain verses that are the foundation of the book and there's others that are unspecific and so because it's a book of signs and not science it's not going to break down all that to where people who just comment every you know every day Joe who has no interest in any of any of that is not going to spend time to study how you know the dynamics of the protoplasm and the contents of it being well it doesn't mean it's built on water or whatever it was the no no I'm saying in the Quran it doesn't mean it's your protoplasm because it's not a science book but if it says made of water it is an incredibly generous interpretation to suggest that you found a science book that says protoplasm depends on water and that this is confirmation of a verse in the Quran that says everything's made of water it's not made of water that's wrong so it's not wrong because it says on page 15 of the source that I mentioned the direct quote here is living protoplasm always contains a large amount of water contains water that's not made of water it wouldn't exist for that do you understand the makeup of a cell the structure of a cell is not water it can contain water it needs the water it can contain water otherwise the cell doesn't exist see this is the parade that we're going to go down where you are so desperate to make the Quran right that you will massage it to fit the science no it says made of water that is simply not true and when I pointed out you're like well it contains water yes but that's not made of water well it was surrounded in water originally in water yes but that's not made of water if the creator of the universe cannot inspire a verse correctly so that you and I are not in disagreement about it then he screwed up the verse says we will show them our signs it doesn't say we're going to break down the science then don't break down the science but in this science it's not a sign if we look at that show it's a sign if we extract those four verses that where Allah mentions that every living thing is made from water and we look at the very first statement on fast facts on the American Museum of Natural History regarding water they said in a matter of fact the water H2O of life fast facts and it says the very first thing that it says is protoplasm which we've been discussing is the basis of all living matter yeah I wrote it on the first time and the vital power of protoplasm seems to depend on the constant presence of water yes therefore the protoplasm like the cell would not exist but the verse doesn't say the protoplasm requires water to function because it's not a book of science but you want to keep linking it to the science because that's where it seems impressive if it were just a statement taken at face value it's not true Dan Dennett has this notion called a deepity which is a statement that to the extent that it is true it is trivial, mundane but to the extent that it is profound because it often seems profound it is in fact false like all you need is love that's a statement that seems profound but to the extent that it's profound it's actually false because you need other things like oxygen and to the extent that it's true all you need is love that's a trivial statement that this is what we are okay so based on this based on this statement I'm going to read it again so everyone so we're clear on it protoplasm this is not me saying it it's not the Quran saying it this is the science saying it protoplasm is the basis of all living matter and the vital power of protoplasm seems to depend on the constant presence of water so my question to you if we take the water out of the protoplasm does the protoplasm exist? it doesn't function anymore it probably still exists because the water isn't part of it just like if you take the water out of me my body still exists and it probably won't definitely won't function anymore but my water my body isn't made of water it can change water it says it seems to be dependent that's what dependent means if I'm dependent on oxygen that doesn't mean I'm made of oxygen well I realize that but without the oxygen you don't exist well that's true without the water the protoplasm doesn't exist I would still exist if you took the oxygen away I would just be dead do you know how much of your body content is water? about 70% it's actually more than about 78 to 85% so without the water in your body that exists in the adult body at 78 to 85% you don't exist the water is necessary it's necessary I'm not made of water the vast majority of what I get it but there's also a whole lot of other organisms in my body too I'm made up of a lot of things that aren't even human does it not strike you as remarkable in that these are verses that were revealed 1400 years ago before we knew what a protoplasm was that a man in the desert the Prophet Muhammad said on peace be upon him that he was in the desert and he's telling people in the desert that all living things where it very seldom rains telling them that every living thing is made of water now it's not him saying it it's being revealed to him from along but the point being is he's reciting these verses to people in the desert and he's telling them that every living thing is made of water and how would they even benefit from that? it wasn't for them to benefit from they take it they accept it that's why the verse goes on to say that those of understanding those who trust the Prophet peace be upon him those who have engaged in the study and done the research and looked into these things that I've personally done and to say how's every living thing made from water? yes I realize I've heard Muslims say it would you think it'd be fair to say that what the verse is saying is that everything living thing depends on water instead of what it's made of and everything living thing depends on water well it's the same thing no it's not every living thing is correct if it's the same thing then you're saying yes those are fair no I don't think it's remarkable at all that a bunch of people who live in the desert who know what it feels like to be parts to know what it feels like to be without water would say that every living thing depends on water well that's a good point that's a good point but let's equate that to a brick house does the brick house exist without the concrete obviously it doesn't so if you say in order to build this brick house we have to have concrete or otherwise the brick house doesn't exist I can build a brick house without mortar well a wooden house if you don't have a wooden house without mortar okay well here we go and without nails you can build a wooden house happens all the time in Japan they can do entire construction with nothing but wood if you understand the point that I'm trying to make if you can't if you if you go back go back to the protoplasm when they're saying that the dependent that the protoplasm is dependent on the water that means like fuel for a vehicle it doesn't go anywhere it doesn't it can't function it's not going to work if it's not going to work water is fuel water is not the fuel for protoplasm water is the fuel for you no it's not water is not the fuel if we don't have fuel we don't function that's not the function of water in the human body it's not fuel food is the fuel we can live longer without food than we can water correct but you take away either one of them and you're going to die because water is not fuel you can't live on water alone so you prove the point but you could live on food alone because food already contains water but water is not the fuel so what's the point the point being is that this is something that Allah says we will show them our signs in the universe and within themselves until they know that this this Quran is the truth and so we have to be willing to say okay what does this mean when as I mentioned Allah's telling people in the desert that all living things were made from water what does that mean to them well we see that the studies of in modern times have proven that this protoplasm the cells that exist none of it works without the water and that's a proven fact I don't find it remotely remarkable I've already addressed that I don't find it remotely remarkable that people would understand the value of water yeah well there's a verse of the Quran that says as for those who disbelieve it matters not if you warn them or do not warn them they will not believe Allah says that's the poisoning of the well Allah says you're just too blind to see no what I'm saying is as I mentioned the verse a moment ago and I don't mean to offend you by saying that it's not an offense is that we're going over the same thing over and over and over no we're actually not we're not going over the same thing over and over again what my point my point that I was trying to establish and I believe I have established in this debate is that we have to go to the things that you mentioned earlier that are verifiable I totally totally agree and that's why the prophet peace people on them told and stated that it's an obligation upon all Muslims whether they do it or not it's their obligation to seek knowledge a lot a lot challenges mankind to seek knowledge and to consider that which has been revealed in order for us to to gauge and base our our belief not on a blind faith not just because I want Islam to be true if I come across something that is verifiably wrong then I have a problem with Islam but I have not seen that now I've heard people make random claims and so forth that once I have studied in depth the the issue that we're discussing and it's a wide I mean that's why I opened up and said it's a wide range of topics that we could discuss obviously we get a fight one battle at a time we're not going to be able to address all this during this debate but what we have to be willing to do is look at the things that are verifiable and start checking them off the list check them off the list check them off the list I'm happy to look at the things that are verifiable and check them off the list I don't see that we've done that at all well I think I think we have a few factor in that the things that are mentioned I think you conceded that the about Allah mentioning in every way I'm not aware that Allah has mentioned anything well okay well you you believe that the Quran someone wrote down 1400 years ago that the universe is expanding and you I believe that there's a passage in there that could easily understood and interpreted as the universe expansion I do not believe that there is an expansion in the Quran that explicitly a passage that explicitly says the universe is expanding no I wasn't there it's specifically it says it is we meaning it's a royal decree allows only one so it is Allah who created the universe with strength and we are indeed its expander but that's the claim no that's it's no no the fact that somebody makes a claim that God expand the universe is not true just because the universe expands but it's but it's but it's true that the universe expands it doesn't matter so if the book says I make the rain okay the existence of rain does not prove that the existence of rain does not prove that passage does it if the book says I Allah make the rain to fall and the fact that the rain falls does not confirm that that's Allah doing it don't you think that we need to factor into the question what what I'm I'm answering it but I'm I'm answering it with a okay so does the passage does the existence of rain mean the passage I Allah make the rain to fall does that mean that the passage is true yes it does no does the existence of rain does not confirm the cause of the rain that is a logical fallacy it is one of the most ridiculous things anyone has ever said no it's not yes it is it is logically constructed as a fallacy no sir that's why I was going to ask you should we not consider that so you're putting a a modern spin on it no hold on I'm using logic to address a simple syllogism okay so that is fallacious so remember remember x then y let's not let's not factor out that this is about the expansion of the universe this is mentioned hold on I asked about rain we're going to talk about that the same thing applies either one either one a lot of a lot of does say that content is irrelevant so content is always irrelevant let me make a point allow me to make my point and then so in regards to the rain all of this 20 minute period we've been going back and forth so in regards to the rain and the expansion of the universe both of those things are mentioned in the crown over 1400 years ago so should we exclude the fact that they are mentioned in the crown whether you believe there's a crater or not someone wrote down in the crown that the universe is expanding and that everything is made from water and that it was a law who sends down the rain those things have been mentioned right so in regards to the expansion of the universe and everything being made from water by example we see that that is indeed the case based on the science that I've proven here and in regards to we know that that the Hubble telescope the invention of the Hubble telescope in their studies it shows that the universe is indeed expanding so do we factor out 1400 years ago that it stated that and pretend that it's it means nothing it's absolutely not relevant and it's not relevant to logical fallacies if the argument is I God create the rain the existence of rain does not and cannot confirm the truth of that statement that is logic of places do you agree it's 1400 years ago this is not a the 1400 years is irrelevant that's not this is about a logical fallacy you want it to be relevant because that it's not relevant this is about a logical fallacy no it's not yes it would you stop telling me what I'm talking about go ahead I'm talking about a logical fallacy go ahead go ahead go ahead I came up with an example what if there was a let me pick another one okay that is definitely not in the Quran so that you can turn your head away from that book if the book says I jump in Jehovah that hosaphat create poop does the existence of poop confirm that jump in Jehovah fat created poop see what you're doing I'm asking a question no not in that sense no it doesn't but but what you're trying to do is you're trying to avoid the fact that 1400 years ago Jesus age Christ hold on no bear with me bear with me it's about logical fallacy I removed it entirely from the context this is a logic 101 this is any first year logic student would understand this fallacy everybody out there watching now understands this fallacy I was not trying to talk about the 14 years I was trying to get to a point where we could understand what a fallacy was but you don't no I do understand what you don't what you're not what you're claiming everybody else is you trying to what you're doing is creating a red herring trying to avoid the issue no sir I'm not and you probably shouldn't reference fallacies by name when you don't fucking know them listen now see you're getting a little upset yes because you keep going back to irrelevant season sign of defeat it's a sign of defeat sign of defeat I lost everybody I lost because I lost because I don't what the fact of the matter is over 1400 years ago it is revealed in the crown that the universe is expanding one minute left I haven't got that you don't want you don't want to talk about that you want to pretend that that's that I was asking about a logical fallacy right that's not a logical fallacy that's a fact that my my thing that I pointed out was a logical fallacy and you avoided it you could every sink in time no I didn't avoid anything yes sir you did your life right now no I'm not you are absolutely telling the lie right now no sir I am not no sir what about the fallacy on every rewind it watch it yeah rewind it rewind it 20 times and play it back 20 times what you're avoiding and what you're trying to avoid is the fact that the crown mentions this whether you believe it came from a crater or not you believe that someone wrote it down 1400 years ago do you not that it says that the universe is expanding that's what the verse is yes so you I answered it three times so you agree that the universe is expanding in the crown over 1400 years ago no sir that's not what I said okay okay but does this okay you agree I don't know how to deal with someone who will not address the question that I've asked at all listen you what you're doing man is you're trying to avoid the issue I wish you'd stop telling me what I'm trying to do because it's obvious what you are in fact trying to do no I'm telling you for a fact and you're avoiding it yeah we got to jump to the closing statement so that I don't get my question during the 20 minutes of discussion at all okay so I open the debate thank you James so I I want to thank Matt for engaging in this debate I still like Matt and so I open the debate thank you thank you so I open the debate discussing the fact that a lot causes us cause mankind challenges mankind to ponder thinking reflect in order to establish faith to rely upon what's verifiable and I believe that I've done that with the points that I brought up the science speaks for itself and so I've proven that in my during this debate so the other things that I mentioned were about the the Quran saying that the the Islam would expand and we see that it is the based on pure research center that it is the fastest growing religion in every world today the Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him said that Islam will enter every household in some capacity topics of discussion inevitably as a sign before the death judgment and I mentioned 9-11 alone and whether or not you believe Muslims flew planes into buildings or not people are talking about Islam there's a lot of Islamophobia in the world and we've heard throughout the course of this debate a lot of things mentioned about Islam just in this debate alone also mentioned the expanding universe in the big bang the sky being a protected ceiling or a canopy and I mentioned the magnetosphere which is proven by science Allah says in the Quran that he created the sky to be a protected protective canopy for the Earth and we have a protective canopy called the magnetosphere and so we can try to avoid the fact that it was mentioned 1400 years ago and pretend that that is not a something to factor in but it is something to factor in because the original statement and the original proof that we have that there is a protective canopy for the Earth which is the magnetosphere was revealed 1400 years ago these are things that we have to to be willing to to look look at and and be willing to be reasonable whenever we do so so I also mentioned the Sun and the Moon being being in their own orbit another sign that was revealed in the Quran that specifically says that those Earth and the Moon are in their own orbit and modern science is proving that indeed they are and so I also mentioned that the as a sign before the day of judgment the Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him said that the barefoot destitute Arabs nomads would be competing to erect tall buildings as a sign before the death judgment and in fact they're not only competing they're leading the race in constructing these these tall buildings 18 of the 100 tallest buildings in the world are in Muslim countries how would the Prophet peace be upon him know that if he wasn't indeed a prophet given prophecies obviously he was so I challenged people to ponder thinking reflect on the Quran with care and I asked people to be a reader not a repeater don't just repeat what you heard everything in this life is a test in my mind Islam is definitely the answer submission to our God or crater ask you to consider Islam for what it is instead of rejecting it for what it is not for what you've been told to believe that it is actually seek knowledge for yourself and I invite everyone to consider Islam thank you 1400 years 1400 years 1400 years 1400 years ponder think and reflect I'd like to encourage everybody to ponder think and reflect about logical fallacies about sound reasoning and sound epistemology about the difference between explicit confirmation and implicit confirmation and to stop being so obsessed with the age of an idea and start being concerned about the veracity of the idea thanks second of all regarding the ceiling and all that stuff done to the sky and all this stuff you talked about it seems to me like become the accepted principle of the interpretation of like ancient papers literature is that whatever meaning you draw out of a text has to have made sense to the original model so how do you know how do you know that you're managing sort of like utilizing something that we have never understood in 4,500 years ago by the original audience of the original of Islam and now I'm accommodating to what the scientists have said and clarified in terms of our ancient cosmology that's a great question thank you for that so I'd mentioned that the verse of the Quran in particular says that Allah says that we will show them our signs and the universe and within themselves that this Quran is the truth I mentioned that the people in the days of the Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him they would have no way to verify science they didn't even know what science was they were desert nomads and so forth they had no means to study these things so when it's revealed in the Quran that the sky is a protective canopy you know what you could factory in just common sense type things that the clouds shading is from the sun you know I can't tell you what they would be thinking at that period of time but the fact of the matter is that they were walking and talking with the Prophet they trusted the Prophet and peace be upon him and so they were more prone to not rely on the scientific evidence in order to establish faith they trusted the Prophet peace be upon him they believed what he was revealing the things that were being revealed in the Quran especially in the Arabic language the way it was being revealed was remarkable at the time still remarkable for that matter and so they just trusted what was being revealed even though they didn't fully understand everything there are thousands of Hadith that explain certain things as I mentioned one of the signs before the day of judgment being that the destitute Arabs would be eventually competing to erect tall buildings at the time when it was revealed they were you know very poor they were they certainly weren't competing to erect tall buildings but as a sign before the day of judgment eventually it was going to come to pass so there's things in the Quran that have been revealed for our benefit in the later times we believe the Prophet peace be upon him is the final messenger he's the last Prophet to come before the day of judgment and so surely these last things would be in our time would be able to be verified through the science and so for example to answer your question in regards to the magnetosphere the Quran says that we have created the sky as a protective canopy and well almost word for word they're saying that the magnetosphere protects this planet from harmful radiation and so forth things from from space and so forth so that's my answer I can tell you it turns out the heavens might be tense in the state in the heavens that the first thing is to solve a crystal dome that is a permanent that the latter will be used to hold to do to solve a crystal dome over there but that's not my question my question is does semen come from between the backbone and the wrists okay so this is not a topic that that's a very long question to answer that's not something that I want to I'm equipped to do today but yeah I'm going to pass on that question just simply because it's that's a long discussion within itself I won't pass on it the answer is no yeah okay well there's a lot more to it than just that sure there is there's no more to it at all sure there is my testicles are below my backbone unless I'm standing on my head and they're not between my backbone and my ribs the verse is and that's where the testicles cut produce the semen just quickly the verse says that that the the human being proceeds from in between the backbone and the ribs and we've been been talking about water the word in the Arabic language is ma right and it means literally it means water it's not talking about semen at all in that verse so that's why I'm telling you this that's what's bigger discussion than context interpretation well no the literal Arabic word means water it's not talking about everything means water evidently I'm telling you it's the fact that the word in the Arabic language is ma and it means water if you go to a Arabic restaurant and as for ma they're going to bring you some water they're not going to bring you a glass of semen the verse does not say that semen proceeds okay so it's just the fact that it doesn't matter it's talking about water and it's talking about the fluids that travel through the spinal cord it's a long discussion we can have that discussion some other day it's just too much okay okay no it's actually talking it's actually talking about water the ma okay well we'll talk about it sounds like something to discuss yeah that's why I didn't go down this road well that's listen in regards to Islam we're looking for anything that can be proven false and because this is something that allows challenging us over and over again to find something that's verifiably false now we're not talking about someone putting a twist on things and they're just giving their opinion and so forth but something that's verifiably false so when I look at each of these topics I go to the science I step away from Muslim sources I don't want to go to Muslim sources I stay away from the Muslim sources period I go to the science what does the science say so I look up what is it saying about a protective canopy for the sky I might just google that I'm looking at the weight of the clouds I'm looking at the two seas coming together I'm looking strictly at the science and then I look at and I say well why would a law say this why would a law mention the heavy laden clouds the heavy clouds the heavy clouds when they appear to just be floating but they mentioned it's 1.1 to actually 3.3 million pounds the average weight of the cumulus cloud when you look up at the clouds you would never imagine without especially without modern science proving it you would never imagine that these clouds weigh millions of pounds it just doesn't add up unless we're honest with ourselves if we if you do think on that level you think on that level because you have been schooled about it people in the desert back in the day if we had we've exclude any science that we've been exposed to we don't know anything about it but that's exactly why we need to go to the science and find out what does this mean the heavy laden clouds I've heard what the Muslim scholars are saying that it's referring to let me see what the weight of these clouds are let me see why does this add up does this make sense to me it makes sense so that's that's verification by the way and I reject the claim that nobody would have imagined that all you need is a realization that water comes from the clouds and you can then extrapolate which is exactly how we got from A to B and the fact that maybe nobody it wasn't perhaps common knowledge and nobody recognized that 1400 years ago somebody 1400 years ago could have at least hypothesized along those lines even if they didn't necessarily have a way to test it or it could have been poetry or it could have been something else and it's only post talk that we're interpreting it that way that's the problem with verificationism I'll just see this factor in how clouds are flying through the clouds planes are flying through the clouds they appear to be floating there and I don't think that someone would just naturally just look up I mean be honest with yourself you draw your own conclusion just because Matt says that he thinks that someone would do this does it mean so does it mean it doesn't mean that's what I was about to say does it mean but you draw your own conclusion and take it from there that's all it is you don't need to that's what I'm saying now that's reasonable by looking at the evidence and seeing if there's a way to disprove his assertion that nobody would have thought of that would you look at question yourself in summary for me question yourself if you when you look up at the clouds without this information that we've discussed today would you conclude that those clouds weigh millions of pounds you decide for yourself no yeah I appreciate your question but no I don't think I would conclude from a bucket of water that the two seas don't mix it's the analyzing the salinity within the waters themselves that no human eye and no human sense could do that's not true you can go to YouTube and watch a video of it right now you can see it with your eyes yeah in current times you can see it right you think that the flaws of physics changed and you couldn't see it 1400 years ago are you kidding me hold on so he just brought up that's modern technology correct I'm saying you could go look at YouTube she brought up someone dipping a bucket into some water for one somebody could see it when they were in a ship there right for one if you've got a bucket and you're out in the ocean and you're dipping it into water what body of water are you dipping it into how would you look you dip it into the water I'm sorry I didn't say her bucket example is correct I said you could see we're addressing her bucket we're addressing the fact that yeah right so regarding her bucket question if someone was out in the water and they dip the bucket into some water they're not going to be able to look in that bucket and see that there's a difference and these waters aren't mixing they're not going to be able to see that they see it before they put the bucket in there these two bodies of water in the Strait of Gibraltar the Mediterranean and the North Atlantic they're going their flows are different for one their flows are different and the buoyancy of the upper water is would not allow it with the denser lower water and that's the fact the science says yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah and the Quran it mentions the two seas and this is this is my conclusion there's been there's some debate amongst Muslims I've seen that and that's that's what I was talking about that's yes you can see it hold on that's the debate that's in the estuary could you have seen it 1400 years ago hold on one second could you have seen it 1400 years ago not out in the desert correct you can't see this out in the desert just like you can't see the moon when you're underground so you conclude the Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him did Muhammad ever mean anybody who may have seen it let me answer your question so the Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him as I mentioned earlier in the debate did not live in an area where two bodies of water came together anywhere he didn't he lived nowhere close to an area where two bodies of water came together even if someone that did live in areas where two bodies of water come together there were no boundaries how would they know which water they were in at that period of time in the 7th century they did not know that so there were no these dividing lines that we have now they would not know that so the specific there's a debate amongst Muslims themselves about the estuaries and so forth and these are showing that the bodies of water just like the picture he brought is showing the bodies of water coming together like this but lo and behold the two bodies of water that mix in a vertical vertically horizontally rather excuse me they mix horizontally they actually don't mix they meet horizontally but they don't mix because one's flowing one direction one's flowing another as they're filling the straight of Gibraltar in the science within it look it up whenever and you'll see that they stay matter of fact they have a dashed line in some of the graphics that demonstrate demonstrating that these two bodies of water are coming together and because the density of the Mediterranean water having more salinity that it does not mix with the upper waters of the North Atlantic for two reasons one because they're crashing against each other this way and also because the buoyancy indifference in salinity maybe instead of it maybe instead hang on nobody called on you to ask shit so stop but maybe instead of a debate between Muslims about salinity and water we should have it between scientists but go ahead so well the science speaks for itself and so by example let me give you an example a lot of mentions in the chron that the please forgive me for not memorizing the verses but it's referring to the ants that communicate by speaking to one another that they actually have a language in which they speak to one another this is something that's been proven with science the ants actually communicate they have a language that might seem but there are things that are mentioned in the chron that are unlike any other book have you read the chron first and foremost if you haven't read it you should read it and you'll see you'll understand so you have to read it and reflect on what's being said and do your own study and research I'm not asking you to believe anything that I say and believe what I believe what I'm challenging to do because a law challenges us to do the same thing and I challenge myself on a daily basis pondering and reflecting on what's being revealed and let me try to find something that's wrong in it and I have not done that with the Bible it's not the same it's not the same issue the Bible is filled with mistakes I was just trying to I was trying to use that as an analogy to say that without the basically without water we don't we can't we can't make it I mean obviously we need we know we need water but it's deeper than that our cells need the water every name a plant name any type of animal name anything it must have the water now this being revealed 1400 and modern times it's more common of course people were thirsty 1400 years ago I realized that but when it's not saying that you're going to die of thirst if you don't have water it's not saying that it says that every living thing was created from water and so first and foremost that's a remarkable thing to say because it's not true well the science I just talked about it very much the science does not say the science does not say that every living thing was created from water extract the water simply extract the water it's not what it means to say X everything was created from water extract the water from every living thing you can spin it however you want it's not true extract the water from every living thing and it doesn't exist correct I've never never disputed that and neither has anybody else but it doesn't mean that everything I gave you the statement earlier about people genetically modifying cows in order to try to improve on creation we have improved on creation absolutely whether it's creation or evolution we absolutely have look up Norman Borlaug and Dwarf wheat that saved billions of lives one man engineered a better week than evolution or any god and saved billions it is trivial for us to improve upon the world that we live in that's what we do all the time our lives are longer now except for if you want to go to the fictional 900 year lives in ancient holy books. So I have no I have no interest in your question or comment at all. I'm not gonna answer you. I'm gonna talk over you because you're drunk and obnoxious and you need to leave. If you come near me I will knock you the fuck out. Go away. Get out of my face you absolute clown. Go get a cab home you drunk motherfucker. I don't care you act drunk. Way to go. You know what's never happened in one of my debates? Keep yelling. Does he always harass you like that? Is he what? Does he harass you like that a lot? Yeah he's upset about things but you know what's never happened in one of my debates is there's no discussion that broke out amongst the audience about which reality TV shows I screwed up but yeah he's a there's some people who don't like me. I'm glad you like me. I do like you. We disagree. Sorry for that by the way. The what now? So I don't that's something I have no clue about but again is it something that's living so well we have to look at the science on it. I have no clue what you're even saying no offense to you. I have no clue what what is it again that's in there? Extremophile. By the way are tardigrades too small to contain water? No. They're called water bears so I was concerned that they were the size of a dropper less. Yeah it's good still another thing made of water. It's made of water? No I'm just in the sense that you were using the term yeah tardigrades yeah I just wanted to know it I knew they were called water bears and I knew they were incredibly small I just didn't know if they were smaller than a molecule of water or not and they're not. See all these things are positive and I do like Matt and I think he likes me as well but these things these types of discussions are necessary in that you know like I want to know what you're talking about because I want to know is this an actual living thing and how does it come into existence to begin with and is water part of that process if it's indeed a living thing and so you know that's something that as a on a personal level I like to hear about those types of things because I'm gonna go and I'm gonna look at look it up and I'm gonna research it and I encourage everyone else to do the same thing but in order to do that you have to be willing to accept a difficulty if you know the truth isn't always comfortable so if I come across something that is contrary to my belief I have to be willing to put my belief to the side and say you know although it makes me uncomfortable the facts are speaking right here and I can't argue with the facts I completely agree and so that's that's all I'm trying to encourage people to do in this whole debate is just to look at look at facts pondering reflect on what's been revealed and do your own research for it I go to universities to teach I like you man hey that was I enjoyed that man