 You know the real story is that you know there were a set of us that just wanted to be able to hack on some stuff and not Have to go through all the process of shipping stuff at Google But there was a lot of other thinking behind it also We at least released GCE But then internally Google had a bunch of systems based on board and there was a real question of how do we start bringing these Things together and so it was really either all of Googlers and try and get them to start working with raw VMs Which would have felt like a huge step backwards or we have to take the board model forward You know you play a different game when you're the underdog and really was more important for us to to sort of reset the Playing field between clouds and so Kubernetes became a way for us to to start doing that I think when it first came out just my previous experience as a system administrator This is the thing you were trying to build all those years. So when I saw it I immediately knew like this thing solves my problems So I think I kind of attacked it as a contributor first and someone who wanted to teach other people what I saw in it Not sure it was going to ever blow up or not But it definitely had the right footprint when it came out. I you know I don't think any of us expected that it would be what it is today It's it's hard as humans to understand the scale of these things once they take off It goes from being something that you can feel to just you know numbers in terms of number of Deployments who's actually using it It's still impressive to me when I'll be like a cube cotton or something and it'll be you know Some company in Brazil that I've never heard of will come up and say hey We've like re-platformed everything on Kubernetes and it's working great for us Do you think it's good for people to interact directly with Kubernetes? You have a lot of people now editing gamma files for Helm charts making different versions for different stages Is that how it's supposed to work or should it be like a DevOps tool on top? So I think from a personal experience as a personal engineer as an engineer that should know how these systems work You should definitely learn Kubernetes if you ever plan to manage a Kubernetes cluster So if you consider yourself someone that's an ops or doing dev ops or a cluster administrator It might be a good idea to learn how the thing works But the whole point of infrastructure is so that people can deploy Applications and if you keep that in mind then you have to ask yourself Do I just want to present all of this low-level tooling to everyone in the organization or do I want to build some? Experience on top always tell people the YAML files feels like the raw assembly of Kubernetes No matter what you use on top Helm Case on it all that stuff is going to compile down to the raw YAML files The main issue that I see currently is that we have built up a very large set of fundamental technologies So things like Kubernetes things like Envoy You know with these are these are technologies that allow us to solve really substantial problems that people are facing But I think if one were to go out and talk to the average end user Those technologies individually, they're still too difficult to use people are stuck in a pile of the YAML There's too many different config options. I think that we need We need more cohesive products that can tie some of these things together into more of a platform the only way in my opinion to make it easier for most end users to have a Quote cloud native experiences to provide a more end-to-end platform a way that people can come together and They can edit code and review code and then actually do CI on that code and get that code shipped out to containers And have it be run with appropriate load balancing and observability and a bunch of other stuff So yeah, I think that's great from what GitLab is is doing. I love the fact that it's open source I think there's a lot to do in this area. It's exciting I'm still blown away with just the the diversity of the projects that are building on top of Kubernetes I mean our idea was that hey once you have this basis you can do all sorts of interesting things with it I think it's interesting to see that evolve