 and welcome to the Creative Life, a collaborative production between the American Creativity Association, Austin Global and Big Tech, Hawaii. I'm your host, Darlene Boyd, and co-hosting with me is Kelly Oto, CEO and founder of Unitist International and an Educational Consultant. Kelly and our guest, Kamiko Maher, Executive Director of Japanese American Memorial Code Images, and Judge Len Yabunno, all are descendants of camp internees. We anticipate this being a two-part show with part one focusing on camp pilgrimages and their importance in keeping the history of Japanese internment alive. You're all descendants and could we just start out by you telling me what your relationship was to the descendant? My father and my grandfather and grandmother and their children were interned. My grandfather was considered a community leader so he was actually parted away to jail separated from the rest of the family. But my grandparents and my father and his siblings were interned. Thank you. And Kamiko? Well actually Kelly, I didn't know that about your grandfather. My great grandfather was also taken by the FBI but he was not a community leader, he was just a farmer. But my grandparents and my mom uncle aunt, they were all incarcerated in Topaz, Utah. And Glenn? Both sets of grandparents as well as both my mother and father and their siblings were incarcerated. My mom's family was in Kila, Arizona, and my dad's family was taken to Jerome, Arkansas. So today we've decided to talk about the pilgrimages and certainly it's not something that I suspect many of our viewers may or may not be familiar with that whole process. And in our dialogue and preparation for the show certainly growing up my parents had mentioned and talked about the camps as did people in the neighborhood. But never with the intimacy that I've learned from each of you. Of course I was on the east coast and it was quite California internment camps seemed so far away. Since then I've crossed paths with some folks around here that may not be descendants but they've talked about living across the street, for example, from Santa Anita and looking at people at the fence, children their age. So I think we have a lot to share today and I appreciate that you've chosen to talk today in part one about pilgrimages. So Kamiko, since that's your specialty, start us off. Why pilgrimages and why do you feel that's a priority for us today? Yeah, I've been lucky enough to be able to attend pilgrimages. There were 10 sites in the continental United States and that is where I've attended pilgrimages to most of them. I've been able to visit all of them. But I didn't know what pilgrimage was until probably seven, eight years ago when I was invited to go to my first one. I had no idea what it even was. But I said sure. So I ended up attending the Mididoka pilgrimage which is in Idaho and that was life-changing for me because I grew up in Missouri so I didn't grow up around any other Asian Americans, let alone Japanese Americans. And when I was just surrounded in a community full of people who looked like me, had similar stories of me, looked like my grandma, grandpa, there was just a different feeling like my body almost could just relax a little bit. It sounds a little hippie-dippy but I just felt safe in a safe space. And so I decided that I wanted to attend all of these and the camp that Glenn's family was in Jerome, I actually ended up doing a pilgrimage in 2018, the first one that I put on myself to the two camps that were in Arkansas. And I don't have a direct connection to those camps but I saw that there wasn't any regular event there and I wanted to, I wanted people from those two camps to be able to experience what I experienced at Mididoka. And so then Glenn, I think you came on the 2019 one on the second one and that's how Glenn and I met. What can a participant expect to experience if they should sign up for a tour, a pilgrimage? I slipped in there saying tour because it's not a tour, pilgrimage, there's history involved, there's faith involved. So what can one expect? I'll leave that to Glenn. Glenn, you were an actual pilgrim, you tell us what you experienced. Sure. I think the main benefit and what you'll experience is meeting so many other people. There were a number of former internees that were still with us and able to attend the pilgrimages. Most of them were younger children when they were in the camps. As far as Jerome and Moore, there's not a lot left of the camps themselves but it does give you an idea of the environment where my parents were, what it was like out there and there is a museum. And at the museum I was fortunate enough to find newsletters where my father was listed as the camp optometrist. There was a yearbook where my aunt was attending high school there so I think it's the connections that you make. You get information about the history of the area and the history of that particular camp but you make the connections with those that were there and their family members and I think that's invaluable. It seems to me that it would be certainly invaluable. How much in your life growing up, any one of you can answer this of course or perhaps all of you would want to share. How much did your parents or family share about this? Was it something that they they chose not to? And if so, what was what do you think their reasons are perhaps you would only be speculating at this point? Kelly, what do you think? My family was in Pila River, Arizona and I remember as a child my dad took us, me and my sister to see the camp and there was just barbed wire left and just some holes on the ground and cement and wire sticking up and maybe remnants of wood barracks but it was very rioted cement but because we were so young he was actually an older, he was in his 20s when he was interned so he was old enough to understand what was happening. He pointed to a hole on the ground he said that's where we used to play poker because you're talking to two young little girls not understanding what this is really all about but it was impactful because you start to realize parents, grandparents didn't speak about internment because in in our culture I think we talked very much about being stoic, being strong, you persevere, you work hard. I remember my grandmother always told me just work hard, study hard and you will succeed and so you didn't talk about the internment camp and that is really unfortunate because now at my stage in age I look back and I think what a terrible injustice I would do that right in this day and age but they did and you see those photos of folks being rounded up behind barbed wires and some of the photos of kids with smiles on there it's, Timiko you mentioned the fact that these were actually not doctored photos but right you're supposed to smile and take propaganda propaganda. Can you speak a little bit more about that as well? Well actually so I if you could bring up the photo number one this is a picture of this is not a propaganda photo which is why everybody's frowning but that is my grandmother she's holding my aunt and she's my mom is holding her hand and then my uncle is to her side so I think if you were to see the government photos they're typically a little bit more smiley and they're doing something they like children might be playing in a sandbox or the men might be you know golfing or doing something that seems like oh this was fine it was like a resort whereas some of the I'm very lucky to be able to have actual family photos because cameras were not originally allowed into the camp but to see kind of the real faces the faces that I know these are the faces that I see and so it really and also just looking at how young my grandmother was I think she was only in her mid 20s and had three children and was put you know in a horse stall in the beginning it it just strikes a different tone than some of the more smiley photographs you know Ansel Adams took photographs Dorothea Lange took photographs I mean there were very famous photographers that photographed the camps and even some of their photos were impounded because they didn't look happy enough or I think they were not supposed to shoot barbed wire in the in their images and Dorothea Lange did sometimes and they did not you know release those photos you can see them now but you you weren't able to see them then so they were trying to make it look like it was not that big of a deal for folks that everybody was having a good time where were the camps located approximately and how many of them were and how many people were in church there were correct me if I'm wrong chemical 10 camps they were located in Minidoka, Idaho, Jerome and Roar, Arkansas, Fila, Arizona, Topaz, Utah, Park Mountain, Wyoming. I know there was one in Tule Lake in California there was one in Manzanar in California and I know I missed something there Kimiko but there were approximately a Poston in Arizona and Amachi in Colorado thank you Poston so there were two in Arizona that Amachi in Colorado approximately 122,000 plus were interned primarily West Coast Japanese Americans in those variety of camps some closed earlier than others Jerome and Roar were two of them and those who remain who were not released early for various reasons front pretty much went to Hila where my grandparents on my mother's side were interned throughout the entire my dad ended up in Hila and never knew my mom's parents or my mom at that time they met afterwards Kimiko what can you tell us about the or perhaps you also learn about the process how people taken away how much notice were they given I'm sure it was shocking pleasant and not pleasant and probably very frightening and families I read have been were not connected together so someone might lose part not their children may not be with them so tell us a little bit about that Kimiko well I think for the most part people were given about a week's notice they knew that something was happening but what the government did is they separated the different areas along the West Coast into zones that they would announce like in the newspaper a week before or they would put up signs you know to all persons of Japanese ancestry they would nail signs up around town to say you know if you live and they would give the streets and you know between the this area you have to report to this place by and it's usually was a week and and that's kind of where Darlene when you mentioned the only what we could carry that that they were told they were given the list of things that they should bring and things that they should not bring and obviously any kind of radios photo you know cameras things like that were not allowed weapons obviously and animals so you know there's a lot of heartbreaking stories of people who had to leave their pets behind or some of them killed their pets you know rather than I I know I don't want to I don't want to be too much of a downer but you know there there is a lot of trauma with that not just with like material losses but also family pets and and one of the other things that that happened that that um with darts so with with Kelly's grandfather my great grandfather being taken by the FBI that usually happened um way before the families had to go they would be picked up no notice my mom's cousins remember that you know these FBI men came and they kind of went through the house they looked for weapons apparently they found a gun in the house and my mom's cousin was like we didn't have a gun so I don't know where that came from um and then he you know they were taken and the so the heads of the households for a lot of people were taken and I think that just made it a lot easier for the the families to be more compliant because you have you might have a mother with small children and the head of the household is gone and they don't know where they where he is so there's a lot of things that were kind of put into place beforehand to make it easier for for people to be compliant take us back to to the the concept of pilgrimage is what can what can one expect to experience if one decides to take a pilgrimage and once again how typically how many people will be at a particular pilgrimage with the ferry or how many can be accommodated it's totally dependent on the site so each one of the sites has their own group that puts on the pilgrimage and so they each have their own personality dependent on the group that is doing it and pilgrimages uh can be different so like the largest one would be in manzanar that pilgrimage is an afternoon um and there can be thousands of people there whereas uh the pilgrimage that I did that glenn came on I think I had a little over 100 people there and it was three and a half days so it's just it really just depends on the the people that are putting on the pilgrimage I I happen to like the ones that are over multiple days because I feel like people get to know each other they have breakfast together they see each other in the hallway or in the elevator or they even go sightseeing together and I just feel like that is a benefit about having the multi-day so those are the ones that I I like and those are the ones that I I put on but there are different varieties for sure when you mentioned the multi-days then the pilgrims would stay in a hotel yeah come together for meals at the campsite typically we don't do that much at the site itself and and as glenn had said before there's really nothing left of the two camps that are in arkansas some of the other camps are national park service sites so they have a little bit more infrastructure but I feel like the and glenn maybe you can speak to this but I I feel like the power of the site is just physically being there you don't have to even really be able to see things or tour things I I feel like there's you know a sense of the ancestors being there of the people who have passed there with you and and so it's just a very emotional moment I think or especially not just if your family was in that specific camp but especially if it is you know I know when I was able to visit the site where my family was at I it's out in the middle of nowhere in the desert in Utah and I just burst into tears didn't know where it came from it just bubbled up and I just kept thinking of my grandparents being there and just burst into tears but also I think the power of pilgrimage is not just a place which is super important it's also the community and being able to share stories since most of us didn't grow up with any really detailed stories about camp life that's almost how we learn is just by sharing other stories of funny things you know where they used to a hole they used to play poker in or the fence that the kids used to crawl through and put soda pop for the locals to swap out you know all of those types of things you know you don't hear they're not in books you only get them from from sharing the stories with each other are there sufficient numbers of survivors that are committed to share the story that participate in the program so that can the attendees encounter a conversation with anyone that is a survivor is that arranged yes I mean we definitely try to get elders to to come but as was mentioned before the ones who are like my mother was two in camp she's 83 now so and she's considered a young one we had a we had a gentleman come to our Arkansas pilgrimage last year who was almost 102 and that was a real treat and a treasure and and that's why I think it's really important that folks go on these pilgrimages now because there is not going to be five more years of having survivors there you know I don't want to be morbid but you have to consider that you know these stories will be lost if you are if you aren't able to go and ask questions of the survivors and the ones who come they are definitely willing to talk and share their stories and and they're treated like rock stars you know people just fawn over them and it's it's wonderful to be able to see the elders get that kind of attention from young people that just want to you know go up and take pictures with them and talk and ask questions that you know that feels good for me and you use the word treasure and I know you have a photo of two little darling treasures perhaps we could call that photo I think that's the number two so that's my mom and my aunt and their faces look exactly the same they make that same frowny face but this is one of my favorite photos because it's you know I don't know it's not posed it they're very serious they're they're frowning my aunt's diapers falling down you know like it's just kind of like feels like a real photo and I I like that one and I'm very lucky that both of them are still around so it is one of my favorite photos of you and I'm curious darling how Glenn why did you choose to go on a pilgrimage and what was the impact that it had on you well I chose I specifically chose the one Kimiko had in 2019 because it was going back to Jerome and Roar for my dad and his family work so I wanted to see what it was like to be in that particular area because imagine coming from Southern well Central California is where they were Central California to Arkansas to live and literally you know you were put in trains and trained out there with basically all all you had was a couple suitcases and so you know it was important to you know just see the area and then to speak to some people who were there to see what camp life was like so you know that's why I particularly chose the Jerome Roar but I think it's important for any pilgrimage because you have a chance to meet the internees you have a chance based on some of the educational opportunities to learn something about the history of the incarceration you know learning from the mistakes so to speak fortunately at that one we also had an exhibit from the Japanese American National Museum of artwork and candy work that some of their survivors have done chairs birds pictures cardings to see you know what was done in camp during by some people during the incarceration so it gave you a full sense of the history of that particular time I believe you have another photo before we need to close here for this session part one but you oh there it is so that's that's my extended family my great grandmother is the one that's grabbing my bratty mother who's trying to run out of the photo and she actually had 19 children no twins yeah only about nine of them live to adulthood but all of them were in that camp so they were all in topaz together and that's a lot of the brothers and their wives at the time and then some of the younger brothers were in high school in camp so they range from my grandpa was the oldest in his mid 20s and then they had high school aged brothers there too so yeah I know I that's a whole other half hour about my great grandma my great grandma 19 children um but yeah that that's just a it's another again family photo to see that they they you know a lot of families were allowed to stay together um there were certain reasons why families did get split and also just if you if you didn't live near your family if you went to Central California or you went to Southern California or Washington you would be in a completely different camp than your parents like if you were an adult child that you know moved up to Sacramento from LA you would not be in the same camp as your as your family so that probably was really rough I have a the next question I have for all of you is and um it's one that I have for all of you and I think I know the answer to this if if one is not of Asian descent is it beneficial for one to attend I think so absolutely I believe it's very important because it's an important part of history plus it gives you interpersonal perspectives and understanding of the climate back then during the Second World War and I think no matter what race it's it would be beneficial to attend one of these pilgrims I don't want to necessarily get hung up on the 19 children but one family alone with 19 children wow so our plans for part two for our viewers to understand there's quite a lot to be said and related to Hawaii and Nico has mentioned that that she'll be helping us with those vignettes and so that is that is our plan for part two so we look forward to bringing this team back together and in the meantime I'm very grateful there's a lot to be found and to read about internment camps for those of you who are watching this and have not even thought about them and it's it's very moving and it's very revealing and it's also wanting to think that perhaps we being those of us that are are not of Asian descent pass them off sometimes because life seemed like it was going on in a normal pace as you said they tend high school in some cases and other solutions some folks met in the camp and married but life wasn't so great either when they came back and we'll talk a little bit about that for next time so in the meantime you've been watching the creative life on think tech Hawaii today we have been discussing the importance of keeping history alive related to Japanese and and pilgrimages we invite you to join us again in a few weeks for part two in the meantime thank you for joining us and aloha