 Good morning everybody, thank you for coming and we apologise for the slight technical issues. This is the work from home life. My name is Muthiers Lippis and I would like to start by acknowledging the traditional owners of the land on which we are all on today. For me that is the Wajuk people of the Nungar Nation. Now today I'm very pleased to be introducing Dr Daria Vinichkina from the University of Sydney to deliver a presentation. This is the second in the series on delivering technical training online and Daria has recently made the jump herself from teaching largely face to face to teaching online on some very technical subjects. So Daria, please take it away. So hello everyone and good afternoon. My name is Daria and today I'd like to talk to you about jumping into digital. So some lessons that we learned while moving our in-person live coding workshops online. And I thought I'd start by giving you a little bit of an introduction to myself and to give you an idea of where I'm coming from. So I'm a data scientist and professional educator at the Sydney Informatics Hub which is a core research facility at the University of Sydney. I do a lot of data consulting projects as part of my work but I also run our data science training program and it's in this latter capacity that I'm giving this talk. So I'm also a carpentries instructor, mentor, maintainer and instructor trainer and really I feel like myself as a community organizer so I've been really, really working in the past few years to try to build a community of digital skills trainer here in Sydney and more generally in New South Wales and Australia and as part of that being involved with events like the Research Bazaar and other platforms for technical training. I'm also passionate about evidence-based teaching practices as they apply to upskilling researchers and other highly technical staff in expanding their skill sets and the types of work that they can do which is why I've pursued a fellow of the UK Higher Education Academy and I'm also a computer grad certain higher education. So all of this is to say that I'm really comfortable doing the two things on this let's I'm really comfortable standing in front of a room of people and guiding with the code or materials or some other kind of training and I'm also really comfortable being a helper so and most of my classes are actually team talk where I'm working individually in a classroom where someone else is teaching one-on-one helping a student get through some individual roadblocks so they can participate in the class so I've got a lot of experience during this. So like many of you at the end of last month we were rapidly told that we were counseling all of our events and all of our training and we're all going to work from home now and this was a very interesting time for us because internally in the program we had just scheduled several workshops where some of my staff were going to take on board some of the courses that I developed and start delivering them so I had a team of people who had worked hard for several weeks preparing to teach this this material and literally on a Friday night we found out that the training that we had scheduled for Monday it was cancelled so instead of that I decided you know what let's try let's go on an adventure so let's try to flip our workshops to digital and as with any other adventure the first thing that I thought of what we needed well let's see what the literature says let's see what's actually out there who's done this before and I highly recommend the following resources which I used to prepare which are Greg Wilson's excellent RStudio talk Jason Bell's webinar the previous one of the series where he talks about he teaches digitally and some other tips from the Carpentries so I sort of took all of that and then I decided so just like hiking you need a map you need a plan you need an idea for where you're going and in my case that plan looked something like this where I broke down every component of my workshops so everything from people come in and line in into a map and try to figure out how I was going to map it to digital and in the interest of time I don't want to talk about today but I've written all of it up as blog posts which you can find linked from that particular Twitter thread on this slide so okay great I've got a map I've got a plan I've got a team and what we did in the team is again I wasn't doing this alone um is we started to think about how exactly we were going to do so we started focusing on the technical stuff so using the best microphone headset we have which is from the RStudio talk we spent a lot of time practicing our setup so we played with a bunch of different tools we figured out how are you going to set all this stuff up what we needed to do and all these other things critically we also made sure that we didn't assume our students would have access to multiple monitors or screens and as it turns out rightly because many of them didn't so we wanted to make sure that when we were teaching all of the things we did would be accessible to students with just one screen and of course as a result of all this we sent some really clear instructions hopefully some clear instructions to our students and told them how to get help if something didn't work quite as planned we also they said set up our tools so for us our tool stack was zoom we reviewed pretty much every single video conference and platform that we had access to and we ended up with zoom because that had the features and functionality that we needed we also set up a shared document in our case we opted for google docs which students and us could have access to at any point in time if we needed to either communicate with them directly they needed to ask us the question or post a screenshot for help we also told them what software themselves so for our case this was we were teaching machine instructions to machine learning so that was either our in our studio and when running a custom installation script to install some qr libraries or anaconda python and some condo command line installs and finally we set up a an instructor back channel where the teaching team could communicate ourselves amongst each other and for this we chose a chat up on the chat function out of microsoft teams i'd like to emphasize here having a back channel is really really important yes tools like zoom and others will offer you a chat functionality but usually you want a separate instructor back channel both because that allows you to communicate within that small group all together so all of you can see all the same chats but also because you can be a lot less formal in your communications there and you're confident that that won't be seen by the students because as you may or may not know zoom chats are when they're saved the private chats are also saved so your private communication if the students ask the chat transcripts will be visible so all right we had all of this we also thought about you know how to set up our the visuals on a small screen we this is what one of the default setups of our studio plus some teaching um material so zoom is on the left our studio is on the right looks like on a small screen as you can see it's pretty legible so we really had to workshop exactly how we were going to teach an hour and this is sort of the final solution we ended up with which again uses some customer markdown which does have some cognitive overload but makes it possible to teach on the screen so again we really workshopped how we were going to do this um technically we also made sure we were prepared for doom which in our case would have been the internet crashes everything goes down and we need to communicate with our students rapidly to tell them what's going on in our case our platform of choice for that was google docs which um so in addition to putting our again sort of installation instructions on there we made sure we put links to the materials we made sure we put like a link to the zoom we put all of the stuff there um that elixir data all of that went into the google docs so that students knew that it was the platform to use and tabs that they had opened during the workshop so that when and if everything went down they knew where to run and i think the key feature for this platform has to be that it is accessible on your mobile and you can just quickly pop it open edit it with whatever resources you have and then you're good to go all right so as i said we did a lot of work uh prepared all these things and we kind of felt like this like hooray we're ready for an adventure this is going to be great it's gonna be different but you know let's let's try this we can do this and that's what happened so this is i'm going to call this reality but it's the series of all the interesting things that happened during our training so the first thing we discovered was that teaching online is really really slow so much more so than in-person training and there's several reasons for this the first is of course that you have to introduce all the tools you're going to use and help students set them up but also because you don't have a lot of the social cues that you rely on in an in-person workshop it takes a lot longer to both explain what's happening now and for students to sort of get that so even if we'd give the instructions the instructions for a challenge workshop a challenge task in the bigger group when we'd break out into breakout rooms students would still need some extra guidance on exactly what they were supposed to be doing so this really slowed us down and it was especially slow for live coding because even though i showed you the nice two windows like it technically worked but some of our students even said like i couldn't it kept clicking on the wrong window to where i was coding versus where it was the zoom like it was just that extra element of work and yeah the zoom polyps is a thing so remember i showed you how everything crashed and burned well yes it did so for both of our workshops zoom literally crashed and burned and we could not access it for about 20 minutes and for one of that one of one of the cases we basically the team which went out to lunch that's it we took out an early lunch break for the others we tried to jump into Microsoft Teams which was our backup platform for students as well and then we discovered some annoying quirks for example you can't see more than four people at once so we ended up sort of finishing that module in that time but going back to zoom after the lunch break to sort of use the richer functionality so yep be ready for your tool to go and this is where the google doc really helped because the students knew to pop in there and they knew that that's where we were talking to them this is an interesting one where in an in-person workshop you kind of have your learners locked in with you in a room so it's they're not going to go out for a meeting usually they're not going to go and you know go do this go do that they're not going to have kids and families and other responsibilities and they have to take the bread down I think in an online workshop we have to accept that learners will do other things so it's much it was much much more common for our learners to say I'm sorry but I've got a meeting with my dean or my supervisor or some other critically important event we also had learners who had children at home and I especially loved one where her child literally was climbing her head when she was trying to learn so that was definitely something that if we're doing a full two-day workshop like learners are going to pop out and it was much harder for them to catch up as well because while we provided access to the materials up front and still wasn't the best solution because they still have to try to use the materials to catch up and then try to still follow along with what we were teaching so it was a lot more disruptive in terms of workshop flow it's also a lot harder to build connection with our learners so one of the best features of an in-person workshop is that we actually talk to our learners and get to know them and their research and sort of their interests and skills and all of that and we have really some really good conversations we tried to mimic that by making sure that for both our morning and afternoon breaks at least one if not two instructors were always there during the breaks so learners could just chat to us but it still wasn't nearly as effective as it would have been had we actually all been in the same room together so while we actually fostered it and I do it again it was quite hard and this is what your feedback looks like so this is what your you can see of your you can see some faces and people might turn off most people try to turn off videos that it's really hard to judge where your learners are and this makes it incredibly difficult for you as a teacher to feel that your students are learning you don't have this wonderful smiling body language engaged interactive feedback so this is really really really confusing and confronting and of course our materials are not designed for this they're designed to be taught in a different manner so they're the challenges the tasks the way we engage with them what we're doing like it's not actually designed to be specific and effective for this teaching environment in summary my key takeaway is that it was really really really hard and as I said I've been I started this introduction with I've been teaching for very very many years and this was what I thought was it's really hard teaching like this it was incredibly hard and it was what was really good for our team is we had at least one experience instructor in those sessions at any given time which meant that for our more novice trainee instructors we could tell them that it's okay that this is hard and that I think is why you need experienced instructors teaching at the moment is to to get people who are new to teaching or learning around you know figuring out how to engage with people learning you don't want them to feel that this is too hard I'm just going to walk away I'm a bad teacher no this is a very difficult teaching environment right so what would I do sort of going forward the first thing is definitely ask and we did this make sure your learners turn on the videos it's not as good feedback as in person but it's definitely better than nothing and you can zoom gallery view I was just watching the gallery view students would see me pop my eyes up every time because I was actually looking at their faces and that was super helpful I think in terms of logistics running shorter sessions would be much more effective because that would minimize the disruptions and the people needing to pop out for meetings because if you're going to block off two days of people's time I guarantee you that they're going to have something else that they want to do during those two days so I think having shorter sessions would be it's a helpful way forward and possibly plan for more sessions up front than in face-to-face that would allow you to go at a certain more slower repeat something that worked well for us and I'll continue doing with using breakout rooms and having a helper in each one to help guide the students on what exactly is happening and what they're doing which does mean that you have me to have a decent teaching team and for my math at the moment it's n plus one to whatever you normally have for in person workshops you have an extra person who plays the role of host and sort of administers the class and also can pop out in the breakouts and guide a session provide access to the materials up front so this is something that in Carpentries philosophy we sort of don't give it up front because we don't want the blurnish copy facing we really want them like coding this is you need the materials up front so people can look catch up understand sort of have that extra access and looking for cues of learning which can be very subtle so again experience the director so things like asking really good questions our learners asked a lot of great questions um asking for bug fixes even after the breaks like after breaks someone come in and say I tried my name a quick from that such I got this weird error can you explain returning to multiple sessions as I said if you've got multiple shorter sessions people coming back is a really great indication that they're getting valuable learning out of it um if they send you emails um about with questions that's great and of course body language of video so that it's not perfect but somebody who looks like really concentrated yep they're learning they're trying they're engaging with your problem but I do think that there's a different way to design online and for me this is about having shared executable code so lots of formative assessments which you do in breakout room so you actually you don't live code you execute most of the code that's provided and then you give lots and lots of individual coding tasks that are solved by students and that way you actually get more of that peer learning and sort of flipped approaches um because again live coding it for us it didn't work very well we ended up about halfway switching to more like a code along where we would code and the learners would watch us and choose or not choose to live code if they felt like it um again having a shared code document for broader review and reporting back to the wider class so every breakout room has a separate code document and the people from the different rooms can go and look in each of the different other documents from the other groups how the particular other groups solved the problem so that again builds more peer learning probably an hour and a half to three hour long multiple sessions possibly smaller sessions so I know that for example jumping rivers do when they do their training online they actually will also do um shorter sessions spaced across multiple days and they also will have everyone able to screen share which again um I don't know if that's necessary the way I do it I like a shared code document but that's again another idea again shared online lesson materials and a follow-up with either a hacky hour or other forms of support where learners after they try to apply this to their own work they can then come back and sort of engage with you more but really because for us the breakout rooms and the peer learning is where the learning happened and I've been asked this is well why not just slip it so why not um have some records and videos and then have learners come in and do some tasks with you and I think my answer to that are is twofold the first is the question of accessibility because even for like in-person workshops and I've done a lot of student service and maybe because I want I've wanted to flip my workshops and my learners remember adult researchers this is not an exam this is not a course there's no stick of an exam that they have to do something or not get a mark they've told me repeatedly in interviews that they don't want to do any pre-work for our courses because they want to come in and learn and that's all the time they have so flipping it means they need to invest more time in it which some of them might do and some of them might not and then some of them will still come and try to wing it and then how do you try to teach effectively do you teach the ones that sort of have done the work the ones that don't if you're teaching a smaller group that means some people who haven't done the pre-working can't really participate sort of end up taking up the spot of someone who missed out who would have done so it's a really really difficult situation also in turn right now specifically I don't think that it's fair to ask you to do even more work than they already are especially for people who are watching kids at home and like parents I'm one of them so I don't have extra time to watch videos to try to then go to a training like it's just people are time poor and I want to make our training accessible for everyone so it's my turn and another question is why not make it a synchronous and I think this is this is one where my answer is much clearer and the what our learners gave us feedback on was that they really valued the fact that we had spent the time sitting there in the trenches with them battling zoom battling software installers use battling whatever they needed to face to get them learning and I think the power of having someone even if they're on the other side of the screen going I believe that you can learn this I'm an expert in this and I want to spend my time sharing this with you and I want to invest in you learning it because I think you can I don't think you can replace that with a synchronous training so that's why we're going to do it again we're going to do it again because in these difficult times being able to share with our learners our passion our belief that they can learn this it's just so worth it and of course the other interesting thing about our training was this was the first time learners explicitly in their feedback about what helped them learn highlighted our teamwork and I want to take a moment to acknowledge my team so this is the two teaching teams that I worked with for machine learning and are in python and we really were a team like this teaching is it was a great team building exercise for us I mean we're all work colleagues it was really really good for team building because we had to have each other's backs and we had to stay spot on because I'd miss a question Henry would flag it to me or it was just such a such a team effort much even more so than in person and finally I'd like to end with one of my favorite quotes from Karen and Tomlinson who's an expert on differential instruction which is that teaching is difficult and teaching really well is profoundly difficult and even the best among us fall short of our professional aspirations regularly and feel diminished in these moments but yet this work for us is also nourishing it grows us as it grows the people in our care and each success and each failure are both instructive and as being teachers we challenge to become the best version of ourselves as we challenge our students to become their best as well so and thank you for listening to me and now I'll pop over back to Matthias and I'd love some questions great thank you very much for that Daria very insightful now if you have not attended a go-to webinar webinar before there is a questions module in your control panel that you can type your questions into Daria I'll be reading them out for you so you don't have to wrangle them yourself so the first question we got this happened while you were talking about learners having to drop out the question is would you consider appointing a specific catch up tutor whose role it is to specifically help learners catch up if they've had to drop out so that ended up happening organically because so our teaching team was about three those three people at like our minimum in which case one person is delivering the content one person is playing the role of host and actually managing all of the admin consoles monitoring the chat monitoring through the participants data and that third person is actually the person doing that so they're helping which in case of people popping out and coming back in ends up being bringing them up to speed so the answer it's not necessarily a specific person for the entire class because we're all swapping roles but yeah it just it happens that way yeah okay great thank you another question in fact there are lots of questions coming in but we do have heaps of time so I'm pretty confident we'll be able to get through most of them oh what teacher-student ratio do you think works best online I don't know so I know that so again as I said jumping rubbers do online trading and they have a 112 so one instructor and a maximum of I think it's another 11 attendees and that was also Jason's magic member I don't know if I want to teach this alone because the cognitive overload of having to play host and teach means you want to have at least two people and my minimum is probably three because again as I just said one's helpering one's manager adminning one's teaching um I think a group of 15 20 so three people to a group of 15 20 is doable um purely in the sense of you because most of the learning in our class like the one I really loved happened in the breakout rooms when students were talking you want your breakout rooms to be small enough that people can still talk which is anywhere from three to five maybe six um and you want to have especially for these an instructor in each of those rooms to sort of help facilitate that a little bit so just support that so maybe three to 18 so three instructors 18 people but yeah I haven't played enough with it to sort of have a magic number okay well look it's a big time of experimentation for a lot of people um okay next question I think you might have actually answered this in your slides but we'll go over it again uh did you run all day courses or did you split them into half days or shorter that we did it the way we had mapped it originally which is two full days each so two days for Python two days for R um I would have again in retrospect I probably will do three hours a day max which means the splitting a two day course into four days um that would be my um sorry that one too yeah so splitting a two day course into four days so how I'm going to map it attendance so if people miss out on a day how they catch up um again lecture notes online and being explicit about that and see how that goes yeah okay great thank you uh okay another question that was an amazing presentation bit of feedback first uh in your book most we talked about reactions and live feedbacks live feedback sorry were they appropriately complementary to body language or is body language really the primary feedback line so body language is the primary here so I think yes I spoke about reactions so for those that that know zoom you can pop up for up to 30 seconds like a thumbs up or a clapping in zoom um and those were used by students when we paused and said let's say um are there any uh does anyone have any questions um this most of that makes sense things like that and students would naturally use those reactions to pop up and go yep even students especially who weren't using a video because we had the advantage and it didn't mention is we had people attending from like Beijing so Sydney Uni PhD students in contact with China they could attend and follow with our training which again it would never be possible in person so that was more of what reactions were used for the body language is helpful for when you're actually teaching when you're delivering a content and like you're now it's introducing what they are random forest you can just see people sort of concentrating you could see them like especially somebody who had a camera on the their non primary monitor and just see them hunching over and like looking and you don't want them to be reacting that stage because they're trying to understand the content you don't want them going in and popping in reactions but you want to see that they're really focusing and concentrating and then it makes you either slow down or speed up but that gives you the sense that they're learning so two different aspects of it okay great thank you uh oh the questions are flooding in okay might have started doing some triaging although we still do have 12 minutes left um thanks Daria so helpful any tips if you just have to teach solo and can't get a team or don't have a team member to join in so um of all the usual so take all the blocks of test your tool stack make sure you have all the things multiple monitors will be helpful for you definitely and the bigger the better so that you have your sort of gallery view and sort of your admin your zoom hosting admin or whatever toll you're using hosting admin on one screen and your actual what you're teaching from on the other that can sort of help you separate that way um smaller it's a small class again I wouldn't go beyond that even like up to 11 I wouldn't go more um and there it also might be helpful to use a tool that allows screen sharing by all the students so what more like what Jason does where students that have asked me to help pop up their screen and share it and then the other students help solve the student the other the students problems is set up here learning that way um I think that would be my if you can and if that fits within your course design um I think here try to get pure learning happening that way in pure support because yeah alone it's going to be challenging okay great thank you uh okay the next question Daria how do you prefer to introduce your more mathematical content do you go through the maths during the session or do you refer to an offline reference so um this is more about the machine learning itself and the answer is we a little bit of both so we introduce the bare minimum that's needed to understand the coding um and we provide links to both um freely available online textbooks um if you want to know more about which ones like Alice in a Horace recently have our studio has a great blog post about a bunch of cool machine learning books online we also showcase for both courses actually the scikit-learn documentation which has some nice like an easy to find place for lots of algorithm lots of math and we show how to access one of the challenges for both courses if we show how to understand which algorithm is actually implemented in this package we're using as an as a challenge task so yeah um bare minimum and presentation and then um hands on discovery okay great uh so um back to screen sharing um uh and you you might have covered this now already sorry um so have you been playing around much with getting trainees to share screens to the whole class for collaborative debugging so i haven't because we had a higher number so larger number of trainees plus zoom which allows only one person to screen share at a time um so yeah that's okay i need to have a look at um my notes because i know that so there is another online platform which is not zoom which is called um one second uh whereby.com so whereby.com allows you to actually have learners share multiple of all their screens at the same time and then i think the collaborative debugging works a lot better that way so different platform okay great thank you uh okay limited screen space so the the limited screen space for two windows is a big challenge did you discover any tricks to helping the attendees with this yes so well two one is an instructor trick one is a attendee trick so the instructor trick is to have so for those of you that my blog post i have a photo of my setup i actually had a windows laptop next to all the rest of my computers purely with a small screen so i could see what the students on a small screen were seeing and then i could adjust all my fonts and every like a zoom of my windows specifically to make it visible on that screen which helped me um that way from a student perspective so python is actually pretty straightforward because if you're in a jupiter notebook everything is kind of um accessible and yeah teach from half your screen of course sorry i should have started with this teach from half your screen so and tell your students to put the window on the other half but a jupiter notebook is actually relatively constrainable into that space i mean you need to add line breaks and stuff but it works our studio is a lot harder to work with and that's where we started using our markdown with inline code output and we told taught our students to do that as well again this made it slower this added cognitive overhead which is not great but on the flip side it did mean that everyone could follow and do it so um i would do that again like that's the best solution i found so far so yeah okay great thank you um okay so another question about helping students catch up would you consider sharing recordings with them to catch up if they miss a whole day for example um what do you think of the pros and cons to sharing recordings so i we actually didn't record and we didn't record for two reasons so the first is um we like as an instructor when video is recorded and shared you lose a little bit of control about how that video later on gets used and shared and sort of um if you uh you have to be very careful about sharing that with your students but also sharing that more widely um so we i'm again i'm not entirely convinced that recording is necessarily a good thing to do for our training it gives performance pressure on the instructor and especially when you're teaching with a lot of like training and newer instructor to teaching you you don't want that extra level of pressure this is hard enough like you don't want to know that you can then go watch yourself do this on youtube and you know reflect on all that i didn't say that well messed up this explanation from a student perspective it can also be a challenge because some people will not be comfortable being recorded which means they'll either turn their video off you don't need feedback from them or they'll ask less questions they'll be afraid of asking that like so many times students like this is a stupid question like there's no stupid questions and the questions are really good but because of the the extra pressure video i don't necessarily so i don't record um that might change in the future but yeah i just to get my classroom dynamic a little bit easier i've opted not to record so yeah but online good online good online course notes should replace that okay great thank you um and uh so um and with recordings for example we are recording this session which is why i'm not reading out the names of the people asking the questions uh in the interests of privacy i have some feedback from somebody who has been experimenting with their own online training they started last week and one thing that really helped in encouraging the interaction was that they divided the sessions into 25 minutes each and every break had a poll where there were multiple questions which were designed to start discussion and this person thinks that really helped and feedback was really good about that um i think that's a great idea the problem is we're trying to teach people to code and i don't know how you like coding is such a technical hands-on i need to sit at my computer and type something skill that apart from a collaborative document i'm not sure how you know going in and like how you would like again you can design differently there's lots of ways you can design i don't know if i i know how to design a course that would finish an effective amount of time again my researcher the researchers i train are really time for to actually get them to a point that they could do something useful and they would have just quit halfway going i just want to go right my next grant so there's lots of really cool innovations coming out from how people are teaching but i don't know doing frequent polling it would help with um sort of coding okay great uh only a couple of questions left we've uh plowed them through them um so we have a question about using our markdown to teach our uh could you elaborate a little more on that place yes so important caveat um my learners are intermediate users so this is not something i do not have people at for these courses specifically that are new to our our entire diverse our prerequisite because we're teaching machine learning so there is a certain level of expectations that they know at least you know some are uh in practice uh about only about a third have surprisingly are exposed to our markdown even in our in-person classes so that switch is not so definitely not something that i've done easily um you need to walk them through our mark you need to walk learners through our markdown at the beginning you need to explain the back ticks and you need to remind them that if something is doing something silly a good thing to try is to figure out if you've forgotten to close back ticks it's like the back tick issues your problem um other than that like and i don't go into any of the markdown details as well i don't actually say oh you know you can put in notes in here and you can do it we just use it as basically an r script with inline code output we don't actually like we say that you can do it but we don't add that extra cognitive overhead again we're running this in our two days format if i had more sessions i would consider it but yeah so um and also the other thing i did mention of our studio you minimized the other half of your pain so all students can see is the r markdown and the console so you don't see the rest of the all the other fun uh features so that allows you to teach um and i'll share my slide and you can look at my setup on that slide um to get an idea of what i'm talking about okay great thank you uh all right another question popped up but we'll see how we go we have two minutes left um do you think that learners are more fragile at this time in particular um i it was an interesting experience so i there was definitely a lot more tolerance for all those for the zoom polyps that happened and the feedback we got learners wrote that like learners were happier we were in the trenches with them than you then i'd say usually the fact that we braved it and tried and like we really you know that like it didn't always work but they could see that we were really the team and i were really killing ourselves trying to get them to learn trying to help them as much as we could and i think that in these like right now it's actually not more fragile it's they value the fact that you're willing to go above and beyond for them more and yeah which is again why we'll do it again so uh yeah i certainly find that everybody is um taking strange disruptions in stride at the moment whether it's technical issues or interruptions by pets or loved ones or or what have you uh so last question before we go uh and this is about how much content you actually managed to cover um so in fact how much or what what proportion roughly uh of your intended content did you manage to cover uh in your online mode so we actually managed to get through probably like say 95 percent of it but we made one important sacrifice to do that and that was that um after about i'd say three quarters of day one instead of doing getting live coding and basically forcing the learners to type with us we said at their request and this was again independently from both workshops but this was learners were like i really want you they said we don't want you like we're not going to live code we want to watch you code and narrate what you're doing and we will ask you questions and that was where you know in carpentries we have a thing where we meet learners where they are which is about usually give the like teach the learners the things they actually want to do and in our case content wise we need to get through a lot of the material before we get to fun things like extreme gradient boosting and sort of more modern methods because we spend a lot of time explaining the basics and like a linear regression if we finish with that our learners won't be entirely happy because that's not what they want to put in their paper so we meeting them when they are in this case meant giving up something that is instrumental to my in-person teaching which is the live coding aspect and instead doing a code along and i think that that's that was the sacrifice we made so we got through most of the content because that's what the learners wanted but we had to take shortcuts and make difficult decisions to get there okay great that is now all of the questions and there were certainly lots of compliments on your presentation as well that is now all the time we have so i'd like to thank you Daria for giving us all of your insights and i would like to remind everybody that this session was recorded and we'll hopefully make the recording available next week and you'll be able to share it with your networks so thank you very much again thank you bye