 Today's episode of the Occupy Wall Street show is brought to you by MtGoxMTGox.com, Bitcoin Exchange. Hey, everybody, and welcome to the Occupy Wall Street show. Today is Sunday, October 30th, and we have had a crazy busy day and weekend, as always, down at Occupy Wall Street on the weekend, things pick up even more than on weekdays. So this is our second show, actually, we're taping today. Today we have an amazing guest with us. His name is Kevin Gastola, if I said that right. He is a blogger, writer-journalist for Fire Dog Lake and now an Occupy Wall Street participant in the movement. We have him with us via Skype all the way from St. Louis. So hey, Kevin, how you doing? Hey, how you doing? Good, good. So you're in St. Louis right now, right? Yep, yeah. All the people were walking out in the street celebrating the World Series about, you know, through the last few hours. Wow. Okay. I know. I've been so out of touch with everything going on outside of Occupy Wall Street stuff. So how long have you been writing for Fire Dog Lake? I began towards the end of June, maybe the last week, and first full month was July. Oh, okay. So then you got, did you get onto the beat, I guess, of Occupy Wall Street then as soon as the, as soon as this movement began? Right, yeah. So I was able to pick this up from day one and, you know, I guess it's a source of pride for me that, that I picked it up on day one and as, I'm one of the few blogs that have actually been following it since day one. Wow. Are you from New York? Is that right? No, I'm not from New York. I am based in Chicago. Oh, okay. But you just, you get around, right? You've been touring all the movements, all the Occupy? I actually came out to New York for a week. I spent about seven to 10 days out there and I hope to get back out there to see it again and what it's like in the colder month of November. Yeah. Boy, it was cold last night. We had this like flash blizzard and I was really worried about how people were going to react because it was suddenly snow. They were talking about 12 or 16 inches of snow, like boom, out of the blue and it was really freezing. And then the snow was melting and it was just a mess. I could see, I mean, I wasn't down there last night, but just in going home from the studio, I mean, they were out shoveling the sidewalks with that wet melting snow and I was like, oh gosh, I feel it for those guys who stuck it out last night. But apparently they've got the, you know, as much gear and equipment as they possibly can. They're trying to keep their tents up, you know, they're on tarps or they're looking for wooden crates, things like that to keep it off the ground and all the proper insulating materials to keep them warm. Luckily, the rest of the week, it's supposed to be 40. So it's just a weird fluke that just that last night. But it's a preview of things to come, obviously. So how many different occupies have you been visiting? I counted them up and I think I've gone to 10 by now. Wow. Which ones? Which 10 are you? Have you been to? Well, so the first one that I saw was, well, actually, the first one that I saw was Occupy Chicago, but they don't have a site and they've been struggling to get one. And then I saw Occupy DC in its early, early stages. What it is now, it's come a long way. And I saw Occupy Philly. I saw Occupy Boston right after they had been raided and had 100 or so people arrested by the police. And I also, then in the Midwest, I've been doing this tour and I've gotten to see Occupy Fort Wayne in Indiana and Occupy Columbus in Ohio. Occupy Bloomington, which is another city inside Indiana. And I've been to Louisville and Memphis now. And St. Louis, I'll see St. Louis tomorrow. Wow. I'm from Columbus, Ohio originally. Where is there? Occupy site. So they've set up in front of the state house. And one of the occupiers told me an interesting story, which is possibly worth sharing with your audience here, that they're actually on city property, even though they're in front of the state house where Governor Kasich would be inside. And so it's interesting because if they move 18 inches, then they become the state's problem. But the city has worked out something where they can stay on the sidewalk. Maybe they could do, like we have in New York City, alternate side parking, right? They could just one night, they could be on the state property and the next night they could move to the city. Well, here's the interesting thing. There's a granite statue of William McKinley that's right behind them. And all of a sudden, the state government decided that they needed to remodel the wooden statue. That it need to be refurbished or something. So they put barricades all around it. And they also told the occupiers suddenly that the flagpoles needed to be repainted. So those are blocked off. So people can't move anywhere. They've got them all penned in on the sidewalk. Wow, yeah, they suddenly needed to refurbish and remodel them. They probably haven't, since they were put up, they probably haven't been maintained until now. But suddenly urgent, it's amazing to see how these places are, the authorities are reacting in their funny little ways. Like you probably heard in the news about how just the night before the blizzard, you know how long has it been going on now? I mean, it's over a month and pushing two months now. And suddenly, the night before this flash blizzard happened, the NYPD, along with the fire department of New York, decided they had to come in and confiscate the generators. It's suddenly a safety hazard. The night before the blizzard, you know, it's just like, oh, please, it's just so transparent. It's just unbelievable. And they confiscate this equipment and there's absolutely no reason. There's no law. There's no authority or anything. And now they're working with, I think the National Lawyers Guild to try and petition to have their property returned. But they just confiscate their personal property for no reason, no authority. They just do it. They cited safety concerns, but that's nonsense, obviously. There's no safety issue whatsoever with that. So what have you noticed? So how long is this tour that you're doing? How long is it gonna, are you just gonna continue touring indefinitely or what? Right, well, so this is a leg that was planned out over the last 10 days. It came together really quickly and there's a lot of logistics to it, such as the fact that in each city, I'm meeting a member of the Machinists Union, the National Machinists Union here in the United States. And they're going down and we are approaching what people are doing in the city as if they're on strike. So when we go there, we actually have a flyer that we're handing out that gives tips on how to protest in the winter and what to do to stay warm. And part of the supplies, so we've got this thing with everybody who's a member of Fire Dog Lake and everyone who's a reader and a supporter was given the opportunity to donate to Fire Dog Lake and we've actually gotten more than $40,000 by now, I expect to actually go site to site and deliver supplies and specifically go up to people and ask what do you need to continue your occupation in through the winter so that we can keep these going long-term and then actually make those deliveries after they tell us what they would like to have then I go off to a store and I pick up those supplies and I bring them back before I leave the occupation. Wow, that is real grassroots, we're talking about in the field because it's true. I mean, people make donations and sometimes there's a little bit of a disconnect between what people actually need and what's actually getting donated and not understanding what really is needed. There's the immediate needs of the occupiers of course and there's the long-term needs too. So is Fire Dog Lake, tell me more about that, is it just a blog or is it an organization? Right, so it's a progressive news website but we also fund activism campaigns. So if you're employed by NPR this probably doesn't look to you like a legitimate news organization and we know that we've had a couple of members of NPR actually get fired for and they actually haven't even been supporting the Occupy Wall Street movement, they just were out there doing creative journalism is what I'll call it and then they got fired for being out there and actually seen with the occupiers but so Fire Dog Lake has this nice hybrid where we engage in activism, we promote activism campaigns. Just for example, another campaign that has gained notoriety before has to do with the legalization of marijuana and it's the Just Say Now campaign. So we have these campaigns and we tackle issues that are going on and insert the website into it and try to make a difference and call attention to things that are happening and I blog at the dissenter which is a civil liberties and a digital freedom issues blog and some people may be familiar with Fire Dog Lake and remember going there to read my predecessor Marcy Wheeler who blogged as Empty Wheel and did a lot of writing on civil liberties. Cool, all right. So how long has Fire Dog Lake been around? I think it started in the early 2000s right when the blogs really started becoming a part of the news economy and people were beginning to get their news. When Daily Coast started rising up when you had open, I believe it's called open left and other blogs that started to become popular blogs that people were reading and when you saw that we could take a story. So like we had the Scooter Libby trial, we were watching that minute by minute and logging it and really making a dent in the mainstream news media's narrative that they wanted to promote and that was where Fire Dog Lake really began to make its mark. Okay, fantastic. And so were you surprised? You know, when you first heard about Occupy Wall Street movement first of all, were you surprised and then did you think that it was going to continue to grow and pick up steam and like it has? Well, so I like everybody else saw the pitch. Well, I don't know if everybody else did. Okay, I was one of the few people in the news that was paying attention when ad busters put out their call for Occupy Wall Street. And I also am a full disclosure. I have a friend who was part of this website, US Day of Rage, that was on the steering committee and had done some organizing with the Occupy Wall Street people. And I had been following and keeping tabs and I knew this was coming up but I knew that there were a couple campaigns that were going to be launched. That we also had one group that went nowhere called Seize DC that wanted to do something in Washington. And we also had October 2011 which was a group of very seasoned activists who are well organized that wanted to do something. So I knew to look because the fall was going to be something and I started paying attention and they started on September 17 and I didn't actually think that you could go Occupy a park without getting kicked out by police. So I was very surprised on day one when I was writing and telling people what was going on and in the live blog, I had these messages about how 50 or so people had somehow gained permission to stay overnight, that the owner had said, okay, we're not going to force you to leave. You're talking about Liberty has a... Brookfield Properties. Yeah, yeah, Zuccotti Park, yeah. Brookfield Properties. And I should say that at this point, I'm of the opinion that that's what they said because as we're talking about it now, they haven't been evicted, they haven't been kicked out because I don't think that there's any recourse for actually evicting them. I don't think that the property owner, just for people who are following this story, the NYPD has played a role in sort of mediating and making sure that the Brookfield Properties doesn't kick them out because there's really nothing you can do. The way I understand it is that there's sort of like a quid pro quo here that they got a deal on the zoning codes and in return the park would be open 24-7 to the public. Right. Yeah, it's amazing to me. I think there's some kind of a weird irony to it that it's kind of like the privatization of a public space that's come back to kind of bite them in the butt because of this weird, quirky situation. It's private property owned by a private corporation, but yet they don't have permission, they don't have the authority to remove people because that's part of the zoning thing is that this has to be available to the public 24 hours a day, seven days a week, which even the city parks don't have 24-hour hours as far as I understand, they're most of them at least are closed at midnight or whatever. And so the police have no authority because it's technically private property, but by code it has to be available to the public 24 hours a day. It's a really interesting, perfect spot. And the fact that, you know, I don't know if you knew the, I believe I read that the GA voted to change the name of Zuccotti Park to back, I think to its original name of Liberty Square. So now everybody wants to, they want everyone to refer to it as Liberty Square because they've officially changed the name of it. I think it's, I just love that. I think it's really cool and very appropriate. So the, what have you noticed in all your travels from Occupy to Occupy, have you noticed like a common thread of issues or concerns as far as the needs of the occupiers? Or, you know. As far as the needs go, the things that people need in terms of supplies, and I think this would go for any occupation in your community is they need warm. You know, they need warm supplies, things like sleeping bags, they need hand warmers, toe warmers, gloves, hats. A lot of them are serious and they want to be there and they're aware that in order for them to continue to occupy the space, they have to have permanent occupiers, which means that you can't have people who show up in the middle of the day and then they go home at night. In order for the movement to last, you need people who are willing to stay overnight. And there are ways that you can make it so that people are able to camp out overnight in sub-zero temperatures. It's just a little bit tricky. It's not, you know, it's not ideal camping weather, but you can do it. And you can, and especially in the moment when people are paying attention and you're changing the dynamics of conversation, it's worthwhile to make the sacrifice and be out there overnight. I just thought of an idea for those who, you know, probably, there's probably 100 people for every one that actually camps out and stays down there and really is an on-site camper, there are probably 100, if not 1,000 people who are supporters, but they, you know, they can't for whatever reason, they're working and whatever. Maybe they have families and kids and jobs and things like that. They can't camp out, but they really are supporters. That's why you see in the evenings, it's the crowd swells and the weekends. It's just enormous. There's so many people down there. And, you know, we're included, that, you know, we work all day and everything, but we go down every time, basically whenever we're not working or sleeping, we're kind of down there and lending our support. And also we want to be involved in what's happening down there. But I just had this idea to be kind of cool if somebody set up some tents and made it like almost like a little tent hotel. So for people who just want to camp out one night, just to have the experience to say that you did it, you know, even if they can't do it permanently. Well, I would just say there's a similarity between all the occupations that I've been at because they are aware of the fact that people are, there's a number of people who don't go down to these occupies because they are working and they'll actually tell you that I'm here to represent those people. Those individuals who can't be down here to protest, I'm here saying the things that they would like to say, but can't because they work two to three jobs or whatever. Right, and there are, yeah, like I say, there's so many people that support what the occupiers are doing, but can't necessarily be down there. Well, they're working two or three jobs, you know, just to make ends meet and things like that. So people are busier than ever, but it doesn't mean that they're not supportive. So that's why it's great that there are all these ways that they can, that's why the donations are coming in, like crazy, you know, donations are flooding into these movements because people are like, oh, I want to be down there. I really want to support what you guys are doing and thank you, thank you, especially to the 20-somethings, I have to say. You know, I mean, I see people in their 60s and their 80s and everything, every age, but for sure it's the 20 to 25-year-olds who led the way, who really started this thing in the, you know, for the majority of it. And we really have to thank and praise those real patriots who started this thing. Everyone else is kind of following on, but it's all good, but you guys who are in that generation really, well, you know, your future is on the hook. You've got, let's face it, your whole life ahead of you and you get out of school and you graduate, there are no jobs and you get this massive student debt and the rest of it, you know. So it's, I really, we all really appreciate and honor all the people who have started this thing and now everybody's joining in. And people who can't, like I say, they're armchair supporters, they want to, whether they write a check or donate stuff, they've got a business that they can donate goods and products and things like that. It's all good. And also their online activities. People are tweeting and spreading news and videos and viral and Facebook and Twitter and stuff. There are a lot of ways that people can support just by spreading the word to all their friends and people they know. So in your, now when you travel to these different occupies, are you staying with occupiers or friends or? So logistically there are FDL members or people that FDL members know and they've all been hosting me. And we have an amazing logistical team. So people who are following me on Twitter or are reading the website can see that I'm out there fighting, but there are people who are working and you won't see them out there, so. What's your Twitter, if people want to follow you on Twitter? At KGestola, my last name, K-G-O-S-Z-T-O-L-I. Initial K, K-Gestola, G-O-S-Z-T-O-L-A. And of course, they can always find that probably that information is also on dissenter.firedoglake.com, right? Yes. Okay, cool. So let's see, have you noticed any major differences from one occupied to another? Like obviously there's the weather I suppose, but it pretty much the places you've been are all starting to get cold. Definitely places that get cold in the winter. I'm sure in California, San Diego, Florida, they're not gonna have the winter issues as bad. I was wondering if occupiers are gonna migrate to the south, like the birds when it gets cold. But have you noticed any differences, any major differences between the different occupy sites? Well, the one would be that some have had the ability to grow and become more permanent occupations than others. And I think depending on the way that the city responds to you, this is how it basically varies. So there's a huge difference between, unfortunately, occupied Columbus and let's say, occupied Bloomington, Indiana. Because they're able in Bloomington, Indiana, where Indiana University is at, they've taken over People's Park, which is not too far from the campus and they've been allowed to expand. And they've got, that's actually a park where homeless people usually go. They sort of integrated them in and they're using them to grow their numbers and they're really building a community and it's very amazing and very powerful and it's right in the middle of the heartland of the United States. But Columbus, the city has played games with them. The state of Ohio has played games with them and they can't take over a park place. They wanted to go into one area and it's privately owned, it's called Columbus Commons. They're not allowed to be there camping. They tried to take it over and 60 people were there and then the police showed up five minutes later and kicked them out. And so because of the struggle, they're only about five or six strong, really. And they have a couple tents, but they're not allowed to camp. They're not really supposed to be in those tents because wink, wink, they're, they don't have a camping permit. Yeah, yeah, I mean, these marches and things that happen every weekend here in New York, they don't have a permit to protest, but there are the rules, there are the park rules, there are the laws and all that, city ordinances. But then there's the US Constitution and the fact is that according to the constitution, we have that right to a free assembly and the public owns the public spaces. So, but yeah, when there are rules, just like in Oakland, Mayor Kwan, even after the brutal police attack of the Marine Vet, Scott Olson and all that jazz, two or three days later when she apologized, she still said, the park is there for free speech during free speech hours, which are something like 8 a.m. to 10 p.m. So, but that's actually just her words and whatever their rules, these bogus rules that they make up and the US Constitution doesn't actually put 6 a.m. to 10 p.m. on free speech and right to assembly and all that. So, but you're right, I mean, when there are rules in place like that, you can't take on the police when there's only 60 people. But on the other hand, if you have, you know, three, four, five, six, 8,000 people, then things change. So, that's like what we saw at Liberty Square with Bloomberg threatening to basically to evict everybody in the park. That was a real, real heated time when, you know, there's this amazing parade of police force they were showing off all this police power. But when it came down to it, there was so much media and so many citizens flocked in to be there and to be present that they really literally would have had to arrest thousands and thousands of people suddenly Bloomberg back down. And that's what it takes, I think, to occupy a place against the rules that it's gonna take a mass show of people if there are enough people. And also, public approval. You know, if they see 70% or 50, 60% of public approval for what they're doing, all of a sudden these politicians suddenly back down and go, okay, well, maybe we can bend the rules a little bit. So, it's interesting. Have you heard any talk about occupying indoor spaces? Well, so I've heard a little chatter about the whole thing of possibly buying storefront property in New York City. I don't know if you've heard any chatter in Liberty Park, because you are in New York. But I know that there are some people who are aware that in order to keep things going, they might have to do sort of like shifts. And so, some people would still stay in the park and then they would have space indoors and they could rotate people and after you were warm for a while, you'd come back out and you'd camp in the park. Mm-hmm. I have not, I mean, I had heard about just rumors of renting kitchen space, especially for the kitchen because last I heard it maybe more now, but the last number I heard was they were serving more than 2,000 meals a day. So, I had heard that they were checking into possibly leasing some kitchen space for the kitchen, but I had not heard about what you're talking about. But I'm sure that doesn't mean it's not going on. There's so much more going on. That's the thing that the mainstream media, of course, but really all the media that goes down to the park, Liberty Square, they don't really realize that what they see there in the campers and everything that's happening on site is just really a sampling. It's like the tip of the iceberg of actually what's going on in the Occupy movement because what's really happening is the working groups and sometimes they meet at the park, but most of the time they don't. They're meeting in all other various venues and there are so many meetings every day. People are actually missing meetings because there's too many meetings. They're like overlapping. It's crazy what's happening. There's so much more going on than what meets the eye down there at the park. So what was the point of that? Oh, the things maybe going on that we don't know of, but I'm sure things are going on that we don't know about. Although we try and here, we try and stay informed about what's happening just to know who to bring on the show and interesting things to discuss. And that's what we want to bring to you. It's kind of the inside scoop on what's happening in all the various working groups and let people speak for themselves without the censorship of the corporate media in the middle. But no, I hadn't heard of that. Storefront space, I'm not sure how that would work, but I think it's a good idea, whether it's, I don't know if they could do, really it sounds like they would need, if they want people to rotate in and come in and get warm or maybe even sleep, they might actually need to have some kind of residential space or a deal of a block of rooms at a hotel or something like that. Interesting idea though. I mean, I guess the idea is that they've gotten so many donations that they might actually be able to afford buying some space down there and that they could maybe have an Occupy Wall Street storefront right on the back of Wall Street. Yeah, yeah, that would be cool. It would be cool if they have some kind of space. I mean, there are a lot of vacant spaces with the economy the way it is. But yeah, that would be cool because they could have a, if they had a storefront situation, they could really have an internet infrastructure, electricity, charging station, all kinds of great distribution. Like right now, is it, what is it, the teachers union amalgamated? They actually have donated the use of space for storage of donations and we toured it today. You'll see in the next episode, we shot video down there. They have, it's almost like a mass warehouse of donated sleeping bags and tents and coats and food stuffs and all kinds of stuff. It's just amazing, amazing facility and all these volunteers organizing and sorting the stuff. So I mean, it's much, much bigger scale than I had imagined until I saw it with my first hand. But yeah, you're right. If they had sort of a storefront, they could actually like receive people, have the information, have a permanent information desk and be a lot more organized. And if they had some sort of facility where people could come in and even, I don't know, maybe have those bunks like they have at the Tokyo airport where people could come in and sleep for a couple of hours at a time or something like that, rotate people in, let them get warm and then go back out. Might be a good idea. But I've also heard rumors of talking about occupying indoor publicly owned spaces. So let's talk about that in a second, but I wanna take a break really quick. It's a good point to thank our sponsor because of course, without our sponsors, we wouldn't be able to be here to bring you this. So I wanna thank Mt. Gox. Mt. Gox is mtgox.com. If you haven't heard of it, Bitcoin is the future of money. It's a completely decentralized open source software project. So it's a new currency, but what's really cool and it really ties in actually with the Occupy Wall Street movement and all of these ideas is that it is not issued by any bank or government, corporation, website, group of guys, nothing like that. It's completely decentralized. So it's as decentralized and independent as the internet itself. It's called Bitcoin. So Bitcoin is B-I-T-C-O-I-N. And if you wanna learn more about Bitcoin, we actually, I created a website called bitcoinme.com. Bitcoinme.com, check that out. And Mt. Gox is the number one Bitcoin exchange. So you can actually go to mtgox.com from the comfort of your home, whatever, and you can actually buy Bitcoins for dollars or 16 other currencies. You can buy Bitcoins for cash or sell Bitcoins for currency. This online automated exchange for very, very reasonable price fees, I don't know, less than 1% for sure. And like I say, 16 currencies they deal with, it's 24 seven automated and they have more than 90% market share. So that's Mt. Gox.com, mtgox.com. We thank them for sponsoring the Bitcoin show and the Occupy Wall Street show. So all right, we're back, Kevin. And are you there? Okay, cool. So that's all right. So yeah, we had heard some rumors today about the possibility of occupying some indoor public spaces because obviously there are some, especially in New York, there's some massive indoor public spaces and why not? The thing about indoor spaces is they almost always have closing hours where they're only open from hour A to B. But if there are, somebody said that in Wisconsin, they occupied, was it the state house? Isn't that what happened in Wisconsin? Are you aware about that? This would have been during the uprising earlier on. Exactly. And I think that's what they did there. They occupied the state house and why not? I mean, if there are enough people and there's enough support, what difference is that between that and the public park? If you have enough people, enough support and just really, literally thousands and thousands of people there, all for the wanting the same thing and the public support. It seems like they would back down, but that would be real interesting. I have a feeling there might be some real serious confrontation there, especially in an indoor place because they can, but then again, they can do that anywhere. I was gonna say they could trap you in like they did on the Brooklyn Bridge, lock you in and then arrest people one by one. And that's the thing. If they don't have enough public opinion, the support of the public, then they can and probably will do that. But it depends. If we reach the hearts and minds of the public and there's enough support, that's when suddenly they just back down and go, oh, okay, well, what do you think? What do you think the chances of that happening are in these winter locations? I mean, it's a good idea and I think, but I actually think that, as much as people doubt the fact that people are gonna be out there in the winter, I think there's a huge potential that people actually find a way to stay outdoors. So I don't know if the contingency of being indoors yet is an actually necessary plan to be considering, but if we're talking about taking over a state capital building, I don't know if they would do it in Wisconsin and I don't know if they would do it because one, Scott Walker has put a lot of restrictions on being in the capital building I think. After the uprisings that happened state to state in March and April, I believe that there might be new rules in a lot of these locations. So I don't know how many people would actually ever be able to get into the buildings. So it's very complex. Yeah, for sure no sleeping bags or tents or generators, but yeah, it does seem like that. Yeah, I wondered how would they do that? I mean, without actually like storming the place, they would have to just go in one by one by one until they were, I guess the only way to do that would be is if they weren't either. There's two ways, I suppose probably, either they're not expecting it at all and people just sort of like flood in, kind of like one of those, what do they call that, like an impromptu, yeah, like a flash, what is it? Flash mob, where everybody just kind of like comes in all at once and it's unexpected or they just storm the building, which is obviously a very dangerous situation, but you think that these, you think that the occupiers can storm the weather through the worst winter has to come? Yeah, I mean, I think that they are going to be able to get donations and I think that they're going to be able to find some way to stay out in some of these places. And I don't know if it's gonna actually be like this or not, but I wonder if the warmer weather, there's gonna be these occupations and that's where you're going to see a greater force from cities and police that are trying to get them to go away. And then maybe in the Midwest and the East Coast or the Northeastern United States and the Northwest, maybe you'll see the cities aren't actually really doing anything to get rid of these occupies because they know that or they expect that people are gonna be frozen out and just go home. I think that's what they expect. I have a feeling, I've been thinking and I haven't said it much, but I've been thinking that that's probably what Bloomberg is waiting for is that Mother Nature is gonna take care of this, that they're just gonna be frozen out, but I think they have some surprises in store because people are really, really upset. Enough is enough. They've had enough and this thing seems to just be growing, gaining more and more in momentum. And as much as they do to, against it, they don't realize that every single act that they commit against it is just kerosene. They're putting on the fire, making it worse. The smartest thing I've ever said, if I were the other side, I would just ignore it and absolutely say, let them do whatever they want because that's the best thing they can do. The more they try to stop it, like bringing in all these police forces and their SWAT gear and just absurd overreaction, it's just fueling it. It seems like they come out 100 times, well at least 10 times more people show up every time they do something crazy like that. Yes, yeah. I mean, that's the way I was in Times Square the day that they had their convergence on October 15th. Yeah, I was there. And one of the things that I realized is I was standing there and I saw police building up at, I believe it was 46th and Times Square, where that was one of the intersections that had major confrontations. And one of the things that I realized was the more they build up, the more people head over to the build up to see what's going on. What's going on, right. And the more people become part of the confrontation and are in the way. And I shot video, I was there and I was actually standing at a barricade that started shaking and it almost fell on me. And I was pretty certain that the police were going to be making a move into the crowd. And I was watching the legal observers with the green hats with the National Lawyers Guild. And I asked them, they can't do anything to us because they haven't ordered us to disperse or anything. And he said, well, technically, they can do whatever they want. I mean, right now they can declare you an unlawful presence or whatever and then you could just start be arrested one by one. So that's the thing, like what you say, the more people, the more police they put out there, the more attention they draw to the movement. Right. I know I saw that you saw in Oakland, I saw the videos in Oakland on YouTube and stuff about, you know, the police had a bullhorn and they're announcing, you are having an unlawful assembly. And it's just like, what is that? What is an unlawful assembly? It's like in a public place, it's just unbelievable. According to who's laws, where are they pulling this stuff? Do they have any training whatsoever in actual law? And the biggest dilemma for these city governments and or in some cases state governments that no longer want to tolerate these people is that they let them be in the space for days in some cases, weeks. And then all of a sudden they seem to say, oh, wait, you're not supposed to be out here anymore. And it's just, well, what were they doing before? Right, right, exactly. What were they doing? And then also the other thing of, like you say being in a, some people are afraid that, you know, if they're down, if they go down to a protest or a direct action march, whatever, they're gonna get sucked into the crowd, which you do. I mean, if it ends up being a real kind of a mob scene where it's like standing room only, you know, if they start hurting you in, which is another tactic we've seen them do, to suddenly put up barricades and trap you in and then make them smaller and try and compress you into a space, then you, you know, it starts to feel like a mob, you know, because it's just pushing, shoving, whatever. Of course, whenever you have too many people and you compress them, and then there's the fear that they're gonna claim, you know, whatever, that now it's gotten unruly. Like it's almost like they create the pressure cooker, they turn up the heat and condense it until it does become unruly, of course. Like the Brooklyn Bridge thing, you know, come on in. On one end, they block it off. They're there hours before anyone else with all these buses that the whole thing was planned. They block one end off. On the other end, they're like, come on in. I'll, you know, escort you right on in until everybody's in, seal it off, and then arrest everybody. And they think they're so clever, no one will figure out that that was all planned. Yeah. Yeah, and then the other thing at Times Square, from what I understand, they were actually like barricading them out, you know, and saying, no, you couldn't enter or leave. You had to be in this little space. And, you know, they play these little tactical games. Like it's a war. Well, and then in Oakland, they actually are firing, just literally firing on innocent people. Like it really is a war with their riot gear on. And they're like, what? There's no riot here except for the police. Yeah, well, so I actually saw the march that had been going, you know, it left Washington Square on that day and it marched all the way to Times Square. I saw the commander, a police commander, actually take the march from Broadway, which is further away from the Times Square area. And then they came around and they came down 46 and they brought people up to the barricades where they were eventually going to have to ask people to disperse. And, you know, you just kind of like wonder, Well, the police are there, people aren't gonna go home. That's the thing is like the issue becomes crowd control. And I understand it. You want to reopen it up to traffic and you want people to be able to move in the space after a number of hours. You know, it wasn't convergent. We weren't going to occupy Times Square and stay there overnight. We were just coming down to make the presence known. But, you know, when they stay there, it almost becomes an occupation. Yeah, yeah, it's crazy. It's just so bizarre how they do that. They corraling people in and it's, you know, it's just their whole tactic is usually just to fear and intimidation. Let's just intimidate them so that they're afraid and all that. But it seems to backfire. Whatever they do, it seems to backfire. You're right. If the police didn't even show up, it probably wouldn't have lasted as long. I got there late actually that night. I was, I got there toward the end of it because I was here. And I saw the tail end of what happened in Times Square. And then I was there when everybody left and went back to Washington Square. I was there pretty much till the end until they, to right before they arrested the people that wouldn't leave at the curfew. So, do you think that all the occupies have the same determination to, that they're in this for the long haul, the ones that you visited? If they have a camp, I think that it's really easy. I think as it gets to be November, the cities that haven't been able to establish a space are probably gonna peter out. You do have some really dedicated Americans that are coming out and trying to protest pretty much 12 hours, 12 to 16 hours a day. And then they get forced out and they have to go back home and their choice is come back tomorrow or be arrested. And I think that those are probably going to become less, you're not really gonna be reading about or hearing about demonstrations on Twitter from those cities. But the places that have been able to get up in campments, which are the ones that I am going around donating supplies to, I think that they are going to, they have a huge potential to last, I'll say at least into December. I believe that many of the ones that I visited have great potential to be there come December. Now, the curious thing that I wonder is if the city's going to use any sort of winter weather advisories or use some kind of city codes that can be used and enforced during winter if they're going to use those against people who are in the public space. Snow emergency. Yeah. Yeah, who knows. If the bottom line is, it's like everything else. If they think they can get away with it, they'll use any rule under the sun. They'll use a law from the Civil War era. If they can pull one out of their, you know what? I mean, they will use it if they think they can get away with it. If they don't think they can get away with it because public opinion is too supportive, then they won't. It's just that's what the bottom line is. It seems like, you know, they'll just use any old ordinance. Like, well, we need to clean the park. You know, they'll use absolutely any, they'll make one up if there isn't a rule. Yeah, and they'll use an 1848 mask law if you're wearing a, you know, a Guy Fox mask. Exactly. To pull you out. Yeah. If you're using a bandana to be an anonymous protester, which, you know, I think as a person who's demonstrating or assembling publicly, you should have the right to go out and be anonymous. Absolutely. I mean, they're not like, it's not like they're that anonymous anyway. And they're out in public. Sure. It's like unbelievable. But like, yeah. And the police are not anonymous with their riot gear masks. Yeah. That's, it seems like they break two laws for everyone they try and protect us from. It's crazy. So, now don't you think though that even those smaller occupations where they're, you know, 10, 12 hours a day and then they go home, they could feel empowered by the success of the entire movement overall. And if more and more people show up and the numbers swell, even at those daytime, we'll call them daylight hour occupations, that if the numbers get large enough, then they'll have the stamina and the power, the people power to actually take over a place, to find a place and occupy it. Certainly. I hope I'm wrong, that I don't wanna see these people quit. I'd like to see people, I mean, like Chicago being one of the cities that people keep trying to find some place that they could go and not be arrested. And some place where they don't have to engage in civil disobedience, to send a message to the city that they think they have a right to occupy a public park, just like others people in other cities across the United States are able to do. I think one of the key things here that people have to understand is what the occupiers should be doing and the way they should be framing it. And my opinion is that when they go out and get arrested, they are trying to create a political liability for the city government or the state government and make people who are in that community ask, why won't you allow people to be out peacefully assembling? You know, they're not doing anything. Nobody is trying to promote violence. Nobody is, you know, these aren't love ends. People aren't trading drugs or anything. It's very benign and people should be allowed to be out there. Right, why is the city of New York arresting and trapping on the Brooklyn Bridge, 780 people and then arresting them for a peaceful protest with non-violent? Yeah, that's when the corporate owned media finally actually started taking notice, by the way. You notice that? And the mass arrest is what really pulled the trigger and then all of a sudden, the media is noticing it and then the public is like, wait a minute, what's up? Why is the city arresting hundreds and hundreds of people for a peaceful protest? That raises questions that they don't want asked. So it's true, I mean, people are actually doing, they're supporting the cause by getting arrested. A lot of people, they're proud to be arrested for civil disobedience for that, right? Yeah, yeah, definitely. I mean, and now you've seen, I think this is kind of fascinating of a poll number that actually jumped like 20% for the New York Times. I think it was down around like 64 or 65% and then the New York Times took the poll again like a few days ago and it was up at like 84% of people supporting the Occupy, Wall Street protesters being out. I think that's really telling of sort of what this whole movement has ignited because usually at a protest like this, you'd think people would get sick and tired of them being out there, but it seems that the New Yorkers are becoming more, they're warming up to the fact that these people aren't going to go away and they're starting to really consider how they could influence change. I didn't see that poll, that was asked of New Yorkers? I mean, I think the New York Times did the poll and it was a second poll. They had already pulled people before and the poll actually went up. Was it like nationwide poll though or just New Yorkers? Oh, I don't know. Sorry, I don't know the methodology. But it was 80% supported. Yeah, but all I can say is generically speaking. So regardless of whether they're in New York or not, I usually think that, I think stereotypically people expect that Americans get tired of people being out there because they're like, oh, what do you expect to do? Are you going to really accomplish anything? But I think that that's the media that promotes that and promotes people who are sharing that sort of idea. I think that the people who are in Liberty Park are starting to win people over to their new way of organizing and the way that they're trying to do things. And the whole leaderless thing has gotten a bad rap from the media. But I think as they explain themselves and they try to beat back some of the myths, people really, they appreciate it because it feels genuine and it's very different from the rotten top 1% top down organizing that the whole population here in America is subjected to. Exactly, that's what we're going to try and do. We're trying to do here with this show is to educate America and the world what this movement's really about and how it functions. That's why our next episode, you're going to love it because it's about, it's exactly that, facilitation. I had, I said the other day, I was in the elevator in the building where we live and I had my Occupy Wall Street signs with me. Or no, it wasn't, it was just a t-shirt I had on, right? 99%. Anyway, some people in the elevator neighbors apparently said, so how's that going? And I said, great, have you heard the news? It's like expanding like crazy. And they're like, typically they were saying, but what I don't understand is what exactly do they want? What are the demands? If you had a nickel for every time, the media has asked, but what did they want? It was an elevator. So I said, well, in one word, they want democracy. What I think that if I'm, this is my opinion anyway, is that what the movement really wants is what we thought we had all along in this country, which was freedom, liberty, and democracy, but real democracy, which we haven't had in, what, a hundred years maybe. Since the, at least since 1913, when the Federal Reserve was created. But real representative democracy so that people really have a voice. So that's the part, the facilitation working group is it's called, where they have all these practices to facilitate actual democracy, where people's voices are actually heard. That is really, really interesting and fascinating to me. And that's one of the things we're gonna feature and highlight. In fact, you'll see in the next episodes, be sure in episode four, make sure you catch that. That's gonna be really good. We wanna highlight that and teach people that no, it's not just people camping out. It's not just people trying to make a point. It's actually work happening. What are the demands? Well, we're making the list. The problems are not so simple. They're complex by design. Because of course, if you're in the 1% or the 1% of the 1% that owns the 1%, it's a pyramid all the way down. You make things one level of complexity and then you make it another two levels of complexity and all of a sudden, people are confused. People are busy, they've got two or three jobs and they've got a life to live and if you mask things with levels of complexity, then there's a mystery and nobody, everybody knows they're getting screwed, but they don't exactly know who's screwing them. It's like coming home and you know your things are missing. Somebody's stealing your stuff, but you just don't know who or how it's happening, right? Everybody kind of has, for many, many, many years, my whole life, people have kind of known that somehow they're getting screwed, but they just don't really understand exactly how. Everybody has their theories, but that's I think why as more and more of the real story of the Occupy Movement is getting out, the American public is going, that resonates with me, hey, I agree with them, they're right, you know? I mean, these people who are out there, there's a level of maturity to what people are doing and there's patience to it that I think on one level might be a little bit frightening to Americans because they're not really sure what to do and it's new. I mean, our leaders, our representatives, historically speaking at the top of the country here in Congress and in the executive branch of government, we typically haven't had such an opportunity where we could be part of the decision-making process and that's essentially what this whole movement is pushing up against. They're saying, well, that hasn't worked. The people need to be part of that conversation. There needs to be more direct democracy in the country and I think as people see what they are doing and realize that this is something that really wants to have real and lasting change and that's why it isn't as obvious what they want because they don't just walk out there and make demands. They're not the Tea Party. They didn't offer some contract from America with a list of things that they're going to push in Congress and with an agenda that they're going to get congressional leaders to run with and get elected on as a platform. They want to stay in this public space where people can see them on a daily basis, invite people in and have a conversation, really open, anybody can be a part of it. If you don't like what you're, I think one last thing here, people who don't like what the movement is doing, I always find it weird that they won't go down to the square and make that known to people in the General Assembly because right now if you feel that these people are dangerous or aren't going to do what you think this movement should do, you can go down there and you can share your opinion with people. This is a very open movement and I think they would listen to you if you had some sort of constructive criticism to offer but to just sit there on Twitter and snark and say all these weird things about what you don't like and write blog posts like that, that's just, you know, I have to tune that out. That's very elitist. Absolutely, I couldn't agree with you more. Even on the listserv, I mean in the movement, people keep in touch with listserv mailing lists and there even as recently as yesterday someone was complaining about how something was done and the way I phrase it is it's like writing a complaint letter and then not mailing it. If you really care, then get your butt down there and join the working group. One of the fundamental things about this is that every voice is equal. Everybody's voice will be heard. If you speak up and you follow the procedure and all that, your voice is just as important as anybody else's and your message will be heard and your voice could be the one that makes the difference in the direction that they go. So, you know, if you care enough to troll online and Twitter and even mailing lists and all that stuff and you're, you know, whatever, blah, blah, blah, complain, complain, complain but really it's just all hot air unless you get your butt down there and join the working group and make a difference. I mean, it's like bitching about who was elected without voting. Like, you have no say, sorry. You know, if you don't show up, you know, then just keep it to yourself because it's, you know, I mean, you can express your opinion but don't expect it to count for much unless you really get off your butt and go down there and join the working group and make yourself heard. That's the beauty of direct democracy and it's something that we've kind of all thought that we had all along through kind of Hollywood, you know, America, Land of the Free and all that which we, you know, it's just good. It's good that we have these values. It's sad that we didn't really have the country we thought we did but we're bringing it back. We're reclaiming our country and we're out of time already. I can't believe it. Can you believe it's been an hour? So, I definitely want to thank you, Kevin and I want to keep in touch with you and have you, you know, back on again and give us an update as you continue your travels from Occupy, a King Campment to Occupy Encampment all over. Are you, where are you headed next? After St. Louis, I'm going to be in Des Moines, Iowa. Ah, great. Okay, so we'll find you online at dissenter.firedoglake.com and Kevin Gastola, is that right? Yeah. Yes, yes. Great, Kevin. Thanks so much for joining us and like I said, we're out of time but we appreciate it so much and we'll see you guys tomorrow. All right. Thank you. And don't remember, I mean, don't forget what we hold in our hearts and minds grows. So, be careful what you hold there. Everyone has their own unique area of brilliance so let your light shine. We'll see you tomorrow. My check, my check, my check, my check, my check, my check. The future of the human race requires the cooperation of its members. System must protect our...