 Hello and welcome everyone. I'm Ivy Love. I'm a senior policy analyst at the Center on Education and Labor here in New America, and I'll be guiding you through our event today. We're so grateful to have all of you here with us for this event on Community College Baccalaureate or CCB programs. So today you're going to hear a presentation on our brand new national look at Community College bachelor's degrees, followed by a panel discussion with program leaders and faculty to share their experiences on the ground in CCB programs with students. We're excited to offer this event to you and we hope that you find it helpful. And I want to invite each of you, as you just heard in the recorded entry to share any questions that you may have that arise throughout the event. Please feel very free. You're all invited to share. We want this to be a discussion. We'll do our best to address as many of those questions as we can during the question and answer time at the end of the event. You can also get a hold of us and connect with other attendees via Twitter. You saw the hashtag Community Colleges so please feel free to engage there as well. We've been more than happy to chat after the event on Twitter or via email. So finally, I want to offer a huge thanks to our funders for this work, the Joyce Foundation, ECMC and the Ascendium Education Group. They're totally unwavering support and engagement just means so much to us and in many ways we couldn't do this work without them. Beyond their financial support for this work, our amazing program officers have sharpened our thinking and encouraged us along the way. So today we're really proud to be able to share what we've been able to do thanks to their generosity and their confidence in our team. So with that, let's just move right along. I want to pass the mic over to Dr. Deborah Brad for some opening remarks. Thank you Ivy. It's always a pleasure to work with our colleagues at New America. I am really, really pleased to be with you today and to have an opportunity to introduce some of the folks who are responsible for this work but let me just before I do that recognize that we formed a partnership in early 2018 between Bragg & Associates, New America, University of Washington, and the Community College of Baccalaureate Associations. So this is a continuing labor of love for all of us. This work could not have been done without the hard work of many individuals and I want to recognize those who contributed to the creation of this brand new data set on Community College Baccalaureate programs. That group includes of course, Mary Alice McCarthy who leads Selna, the Center on Labor in New America, Educational Labor at New America, Iris Palmer and Ivy Love who you just met, as well as a couple of super talented interns who were at New America this year and that's Rebecca Hague who was, who is at Princeton and Yoon Chow who's at Berkeley. I also want to recognize my colleague Elizabeth Mesa at the University of Washington, and two interns who are working on their doctorates in Community College leadership Tammy Napientek and Ellen Wasserman who at the New Jersey City University. And finally, one of my former students who graduated at the University of Illinois Stephanie O'Leary. She's an incredible team, and it could have never been done without all hands on deck and so I thank them and I also want to thank my colleague Angela Kirsten Brack, who leads the Community College Baccalaureate Association and I think she has a few words for you as well. Thank you Deb and thank you Ivy and thank you Mary Alice for all the work that you're doing. This, you know the saying, it takes a village to raise a child well it certainly takes a village to do the kind of work that you all have done and what we all continue to do for Community College Baccalaureates. And as CCBA is very fond of saying we're, we're all in all focused on having Community College students have the opportunity to obtain a baccalaureate degree that's workforce focused, and that provides a family sustaining wage. Over the past year or so we've had so many new states come on board, and also existing states expand the ability of their community colleges to offer baccalaureate degrees. And as a practitioner someone who is at the Community College is writing baccalaureate degrees. It was really important that you could find some folks who had already done this already paved the way. And this is what your research is, is really all about paving the way, showing folks how to do this, maybe without some of the obstacles. So your work really is going to impact, you know, the next 1020 years in Community Colleges and we're so excited to be a part of that. Also, I'd be remiss if I didn't put a plug in for CCBA's annual conferences February, go to our website, we hope that you'll join us with this conversation will continue. So Ivy, thank you for inviting CCBA to be part of this. We're excited and honored to share in the work that you do. Thank you. Thank you so so much. We really appreciate you and we appreciate CCBA. CCBA is such a great community so it's always really great to be able to partner with you. Thank you so much. Now it is time for our presentation, looking at our new inventory of CCBA institutions and programs so I want to welcome back Dr. Bragg and Mr. Tim Harmon to share their presentation. Thank you Ivy. Before I dive in I want to take a minute to introduce my colleague Timothy Harmon, Tim. Tim and I have worked together for many, many years and have really loved this opportunity to dive into the world of community college baccalaureate degrees. Tim has deep experience in workforce development and development of career pathways at the state and federal level and many of you probably know his work so it's just a real thrill to present with him today and I want to recognize his great work. So I'm going to say let's kick it off with the slides. So as any good researcher would, I want to tell you just a little bit about our methods and I won't spend too much time on this always happy to talk about how did you figure out what you're sharing today. I think it's particularly important in a field that's so new, like the community college baccalaureates. So we did a lot of things to get to today. One of the most important first steps we took it was to look at iPads and the Carnegie basic classification. And we're interested in finding institutions that confer baccalaureate degrees, but retain their classification as a predominant associate granting institution, essentially a community college. So that is a, it's a bedrock of the numbers that we're sharing today. We started this work about 10 months ago with that iPad search and again, shout out to Elizabeth Mazeth University of Washington for helping us get started in that work. And we repeated that analysis again in October, knowing that the data could have been refreshed. We didn't actually find many changes in the institutional classification between March and October but we want you to know we were thorough and updated our work. I'll say a little bit more about that classification in a minute. So from there, we then took what we found the states that identified institutions in these with this classification and we went to state agencies to higher education systems within states and to institutions themselves. And to see if they themselves still see themselves as a community college baccalaureate granting institution. So that painstaking work took a while. We caught we did contact all, all states, including states that we didn't find institutions to ensure that there might not be something happening that we didn't know, didn't know about. We're pretty thorough there we also have a extensive probably the most extensive collection of legislative policies rules and regulations in the country so we gathered all of that information and use that as a double check. As we talked to states and systems about what they're doing. Probably the most painstaking work that we did is once we found institutions we went to websites and we analyze the websites of every potential community college baccalaureate program we could find every baccalaureate degree conferred by the community colleges in our list so that was the most extensive and many of the people I thanked few minutes ago we're part of that work. And then throughout all of this. We had a process for really engaging one another in figuring out if we think what we're doing makes sense so across team validation process and I will tell you that we tended toward being conservative. So, if we didn't know, or we disagreed, we tended not to count either the institution or the program. So it's possible that our numbers are a bit low. It's also possible that we made some decisions that you wouldn't have made or others wouldn't have made. But I do thank everyone who is involved and also send you to our paper. That's first authored by Ivy that gives you a little bit of more information about our methods. So I'm going to go to the next slide I'm just going to say something about this classification. And kind of Carnegie's basic classification did recognize in 2018 that there are traditionally what we call to your colleges or community colleges that confer baccalaureate degrees and they created two categories this baccalaureate associates dominant, which means an institution gives some baccalaureates but it is an associate dominant institution, and then another classification the baccalaureate mixed mission. So as you can see here, most of the institutions that we count are the baccalaureate associates dominant. Some of the institutions, the ones that are in the red pie are institutions that consider themselves mixed mission, which essentially means that they're moving toward more of a balance between associates and baccalaureates and maybe they're not there, but may tend to move there and I thought you might find it interesting that 11 of those mixed mission institutions are in Florida, which is the state that has now fully scaled up to all 28 community colleges and the time in this in this exercise does seem to matter. Five of the institutions that are in that 24 are also in Georgia and have been conferring baccalaureate degrees for a while. There does seem to be some movement toward that mixed mission over time, but I'd also point out that we identified 23 additional community colleges that are still associate colleges. They've not been re accredited they aren't officially identified by Carnegie yet as a baccalaureate associates dominant, but we anticipate that that number is going to be added to the 94 so that's that's going to be a pretty big number. Let's go to the next slide then so you can see the current map of the United States we now count 24 states in our count and you can see that huge swath of the United States through the West which is where we've really seen the expansion of these degrees over the last few years. We have very few states as you can see up in the northwest the one that is counted is Vermont and Vermont College is a baccalaureate awarding institution. But there there's lots that I could say here. One is already been alluded to in the last five years we've seen seven states that have authorized baccalaureate degrees to be conferred by community colleges sometimes only one, like in Idaho. In other states Wyoming, Oregon, Arizona, Ohio, those states did not put limits on the number of institutions that can confer. And so while some of those states are not yet conferring. Most are on some level, although certainly not scaled up. I also want to mention I think an important point. And that is that we are not including, although we want to recognize that there are also baccalaureate associates dominant tribal colleges, about half of the tribal colleges are fit in this category and also US territory. So this extends beyond the 50 states to to other parts of our country. So I would again point you as I as I move to the next slide to our paper, which actually shows you a moving map. You can see when states have joined into these 24 states. This slide is is a little busy, but let me just share with you that we want to point out a few things, things, using, using, using that that, you know, most of the states are not scaled up in the sense that all institutions are doing this. And I believe that's intentional. The point of these degrees is that they meet student needs and workforce needs, and they develop out of that rich and important conversation between colleges, the students who might not otherwise have an opportunity to pursue a baccalaureate degree, and a need for workers employees and the creation of career paths that not only create new jobs but create advancement. And one of the reasons you see such differences in the approved programs is because partly time. Some of these are newer states, but part of it are choices that are being made within states to allow particular institutions or groups of institutions to convert confer baccalaureate degrees based on the need that is presented to them. And so, with that we see a few states, some are not very many community colleges but some are quite large, Florida's entire 28 colleges, 29 of the 34 in Washington now confer baccalaureate degrees and, and some of the others are moving in that direction. It's a, it's a rich and complex environment for the baccalaureate degrees and something that many factors contribute to the decisions that states are making and that's probably the most important point I, I need to make. Let me move to the next slide and just kind of review the numbers for you then. The 24 states, seven of those states that have been conferring in the last five years are approved to confer. There are 41 institutions that have come on board in the last five years. So that's the pie chart you saw, and then 132 baccalaureate degree programs have been added in the last five years so the programs lag the identification of institutions by just a bit. But these are the numbers that are in our data set and we're happy to share. I'm going to turn it over to my colleague Tim Harmon to tell you more. Thanks Deborah and let me say to what what a thrill it has been to work with you and all the members of the of the team that's been working on this project. I'm a relative newcomer to the issue of community college baccalaureate and so I have learned a lot from from you and from the others that have been working on this so it's been a great learning experience for me and my, my part of this is to maybe talk a little bit more about the specific degree programs and types of degrees and give a little insight maybe into the directions that we see for the future. So, if we could look at the, the next slide. So, this chart is really interesting one to me I mean it shows the CCB programs by the type of degree, which graduates may earn. And then looking at the 559 degree programs which we found we, we found 13 unique degree types, which was more than I expected to find. The most common of those are shown on this slide with a kind of other unknown category thrown in there to capture the very rare ones that we found. So some, some legislation limits CCB to a certain type of credential a certain type of degree. For example, Washington, Oregon, and Ohio limit authorization is CCB is to some form of an applied bachelor's degree. Where some programs are considered applied, based on the field of study, and other cases the bachelor's degree itself must be a bachelor of applied science, or a bachelor of applied technology. So the BS or the BAT. So since some of the most common CCB areas of study, build on the applied associate degrees. It makes sense that you know the BS and BAT would be the most common among the CCB programs. Now bachelor of arts degrees are there, but they're fairly rare among CCB programs and they tend to be offered by a handful of CCB conferring institutions that offer a larger array of bachelor's degrees. So I'm assuming and possibly across those more mixed mission institutions that have kind of have a foot in both worlds. I want to focus a little bit on the bachelor of science and nursing, which you see there on the slide. It is a common CCB program and interest in increasing these programs nationwide appears to be quite high. There are multiple fields in which these programs are offered the one most frequently mentioned is the BSN or bachelor of science and nursing degree. So historically degree programs have served as the most common pathway into careers of registered nurse, yet many registered nurses who enter the profession with an associate degree. They earn their bachelor's degree after licensure to increase salary, access management opportunities, etc. Colorado and Texas stand out as states authorizing the BSN degree programs and seeing the sizable scale up in community colleges in recent years. Also Ohio is the most recent state to pass legislation specifically authorizing community colleges to confer the bachelor of science and nursing. Next slide please. So, first we looked at degree types now we want to look at program categories. And so what, in addition to categorizing our 559 programs by the type of degree we use the information we obtained about each program to assign a classification instructional program code at the six digit level. In this chart, and we did that, you know, mostly by looking at the materials that the colleges provided on their on their student facing websites and we had other information available to us. So this chart here indicates the most common broad fields of study using the first two digits of the program CIP code. Most CCB authorizing legislation limits these programs to those that demonstrate local labor market need as Deborah mentioned, often this legislation places parameters also around duplication of program offerings with public universities in the same service area. So it would, for instance, prohibit that CCB is most often exist in technical fields, frequently those in which College Act already operates an associate degree program as I mentioned. And then nursing again it's very popular and we, and there's so many CCBs and nursing that combining them with the other, you know, health care programs under, you know, category two digit 51 would would obscure their prevalence so we, we've shown them separately here in their own 51.3801 category. And so several states, as I mentioned the past legislation authorizing this and so we expect to see more of these in the future. Now let's, well let's go to the next slide I think that's probably the best thing. Okay, so the this chart focuses on the most common two digit CIP fields it's the same frame of reference. It looks at just those new CCB programs that came online in the last five years. So we wanted to do this because we're interested in seeing whether or not there was a lot there was a big difference between what was happening most recently and what has been happening historically with the community college baccalaureate programs in terms of the program categories CIP program categories and actually that pattern looks fairly similar. We didn't really see a big difference there. Health professions you know category 51 is the most common in particular nursing as I mentioned shown separately also in this slide with 20 new nursing programs in the last five years and 24 other health professional occupations. Other than nursing, the most common new health program is respiratory therapy, which makes sense I guess because credential requirements and employer expectations are changing with respect to that occupation. Associate degree programs continue to prepare people for occupational licensure and respiratory therapy but only, but the accrediting body for respiratory therapy as you may know is no longer allowing new associate degree programs to be implemented so only that's a shift in credential requirement that's happening so given that, you know, we expect to see more respiratory therapy programs authorized by through the CCB mechanism in the future, as well as other kinds of allied health programs. Business programs category 52 is a close second to healthcare, followed by education, computer information sciences and engineering technologies those are sort of the top ones. The most common new business program and looking through the more detailed version of this is business administration management and operations. Early childhood education and training is the most common new program in the education category, and computer and information systems security is the most common new program in the computer and information sciences category. I'm really happy about that as someone who depends on access to the internet to do things like this. Next slide. So, this, this is an interesting chart this chart illustrates the mix. Among those common fields of study that we mentioned in the five states with the highest number of active CCB programs so not the, you know, not the five most recent states but the five states with the largest number of active programs. So, these are five states that have all authorized Community College back alert programs for relatively long period of time. In fact, the latest state among these five to first authorize CCB programs is Washington in 2005 so these states have all been in the business of CCB for a while. And they have lots of programs. Now, the areas of study shown in this chart are common across the states that but the proportions as you can see very indicating perhaps how the need for CCB programs in particular field may vary from state to state and location to location. We see in this slide though a substantial state to state variation in particularly in nursing, other health care professions and education, which possibly is reflective of no demand in those areas but may also be reflective of varying policy environments across the states and the, the ability to offer things like that, you know, BSN etc. So the chart of that blue category at the bottom the stem category so we combine several CIP code areas to create a science technology engineering mathematics category, giving you know long standing interest in in stem, and you know our research that looks at stem CCB programs. And these programs account for about 20 to 30% of the CCB programs in the five states. Likewise, there's a range of programs and concentrations exist in the CCB business programs because knowledge and skills from a bachelor's program in business can support initial employment, career advancement and entrepreneurship. These programs are common among CCB's Florida, for instance, the state with the most programs in the longest history of CCB's organizational management programs comprise the highest share of graduates of any CCB programs in the 2018-19 period, which is the most recent year for which data is available. CCB programs in education which support local residents preparation for the teaching profession fit well with the community college mission to support the education and training of those in nearby communities. Early childhood education programs that build on associate degrees are common among CCB teacher preparation pathways states like Florida have many teacher preparation programs across a range of student ages and subject matter. So just to sort of close out this part of our presentation. I just like to say that, based on our examination of these data and in sort of what's happening what our knowledge is about what's happening in the states we expect more institutions and programs that come online soon. And as Deborah alluded to so for example, you know, Arizona and Oregon are two of the states among the seven new states, authorizing in the last five years, and they're currently working on their program approval and application processes. So they're, you know, brand new so there there's a lot of potential there Ohio another example of one of the seven new states authorizing in the last five years as recently enacted a new law and nursing as I mentioned. And so we expect to see, you know, uptake for that, of course. And then in addition, four states that are that already allow widespread conferral of the CCB, which some of what you see on this slide. Have enacted new laws recently opening the door to more institutions and more programs. And that's California, Colorado, Texas and Washington. And during these all of these developments and we feel it's highly likely that there will be another significant jump in CCB availability during the next five years, just even just focusing on those institutions or programs within these existing states, and not even counting any additional states that might, that might, you know, begin to authorize the CCB. So anyway, the bottom line is that there's substantial potential we feel for scaling up CCB programs in the states which already can authorize it and this could be a key feature of the next phase of CCB implementation. So, in closing, questions about the landscape of Community College Baccalaureate programs require accurate data to begin to find answers so this inventory of CCB institutions and programs we we feel presents a first good step toward assessing the types of programs that program areas and geographic concentration so these data hopefully make it possible for new analyses on CCBs and how states and colleges are using these programs to address student demand and community and labor market needs. And I will hand it back. Thank you so much to both of you for your presentation and really appreciate it. I want to invite Dr Jonathan Turk from St. Louis University to offer some comments and questions to our presenters about the inventory and our findings so the mic is all yours. Sounds good. Thank you Ivy. So thanks to both Deborah and Tim for that really great presentation and good afternoon everyone. As Ivy mentioned my name is Jonathan Turk I'm an assistant professor of higher education here at St. Louis University in Missouri. The areas of research are really focused on community colleges, community college student success, and the intersections of state and federal policy and community colleges. In addition, I've also spent the past handful of years really focused on data and data systems and higher education. So, you know, think about iPads think about analytics think about the NC sample surveys and other things like that. I'm happy to be here this afternoon, and to have the opportunity to discuss just how cool these data really are. For those of you who are wondering cool is the proper academic term for it, but they are they're just really really cool. So I want to begin by just talking a little bit about you know what gap this new data set is really filling our presenters did a good job highlighting some key examples of that. But I'd like to emphasize a couple of additional points and offer a little bit more reflection. So, you know, when we think about higher education data at the institution level it's hard not to think about iPads right. iPads as a data source is really rich and can tell us a lot, but it also has its limitations. So one of the first gaps that I think these new data really help us fill or begin filling, you know, unlike iPads this data set can tell us the type of degree institutions are awarding. So think about bachelor of arts bachelor of science bachelor of applied science, rather than just the level associate bachelor masters and so forth. And it can also this new data set can also help us better understand the relationship between different degree levels at a specific institution. So let me unpack that a little bit so why why is that even important what am I even really talking about right. So, degree types, whether it be at the associate degree level or the bachelor's level may have different signaling value in the market, or may have ramifications for continued educational pathways. So, you know, for example at the associate level. We're often comfortable with this idea that the AA the associate and arts degree is the premier transfer preparation degree. Well pathways to the baccalaureate for a s degree holders may have more barriers. Before this data set we couldn't examine what share of CCB programs were awarding BAs versus bachelors of applied sciences for example. I know just for me I was a little surprised to see just how many bachelor of science degree programs were present at the CCBs in this in this data set. I think this information will be important for researchers to examine whether different CCB degree types have different values in a labor market you know once we kind of hold constant specific programmatic areas. But also how different CCB programs might ultimately feed into education beyond the bachelor's degree I mean I firmly believe that no degree pathway should be a dead end. And so how do we need to be thinking about CCBs or how might different CCB degree types impact graduate opportunities graduate enrollment opportunities into the future. But stepping back just for a moment you know this data set is also helping us understand how some CCB programs are embedding sub baccalaureate credentials into their baccalaureate programs that kind of stackable model. It's also helping us understand which types of programs and at what kinds of institutions faculty are making these design choices. So I think this information will be particularly useful for faculty who are just beginning to develop baccalaureate programs at community colleges but also poses an interesting research question about the retention and bachelor's degree completion rates in similar programs that do and do not offer for instance an associate degree in route. You know another observation so I think this this new data set really helps us develop a clear understanding not only of the spread of CCB programs across the country and within states. But also their representation within the mix of programs offered at a single institution. You know so much of our understanding of higher education comes from data sets that begin the descriptions of colleges and universities as either being less than two year, two year or four year institutions. You know this level of classification is based on the length of the longest degree offered at an institution, not necessarily the predominant award. So, you know, I think the client one of the classic examples is taking like Miami Dade College for for example in Florida. So in 2019 2020 only 7% of all of the credentials awarded at Miami Dade College were bachelor's degrees, the remaining credentials were associate degrees and certificates of baccalaureate certificates. Miami Dade is a four year institution under this classification. And I mean this in no negative sense Miami Dade College is a fabulous institution, but is Miami Dade College the same type of institution as the University of Florida, which awarded virtually no associate degrees in 2019 2020. You know, stepping away from iPads for a second many on this call and certainly around DC I spent the last seven years of my career working professionally in DC, are very familiar with with another higher education data source the national post secondary student aid study or nipsass. You know nipsass provides us a nationally representative sample of students enrolled in higher education, so that we can explore their background characteristics, some of their educational experiences, and how they finance their education. So that's the base of for two other studies look specifically at beginning students and students who complete bachelor's degrees. So nipsass and its family of sweets are often used to inform federal policy decisions. However that that represented remember I said that nationally representative sample that sample that undergirds nipsass is based on a two stage design, where ultimately the first stage is to select institutions based on that sampling frame of less than two year, and four year institutions. So where do community college baccalaureate institutions fit in they fit in that four year, and that may not be the best sampling frame we're trying to develop really representative data for students at these type of institutions as well. So you know what is I guess what is my point with all of this right. So I think first this new data set helps us paint a clearer picture to the mix of programs being offered at community colleges CCBs. It will help us and others better understand how baccalaureate programs are being strategically deployed at community colleges. It also shows us that authorizing CCBs does not mean that these institutions suddenly forget their mission to also provide education at the sub baccalaureate level and prepare students for transfer. It shows us that in a time of rapid change and diffusion of the CCB programs, the time lag that's associated with iPads anywhere from a year to two years reporting isn't going to give us the data that we need to know when we need it. This is a rapidly changing environment. And finally, the data set and I think really CCBs more broadly prove in my mind anyway, that the way we classify and the way we talk about colleges and universities is outdated and really needs refinement. Two year four year these classifications are gross oversimplifications in the era of the CCB. We need to think about new ways to describe and classify institutions that takes into better account their actual missions. I mean, I think if you talk to any community college president in the country, they will help happily walk you through. They will happily walk you through their mission. The mission means to them, their institution and their local community, adding a small number of bachelor's degree programs does not negate that mission doesn't, it doesn't negate that it just provides another mechanism by which they can fulfill those those really truly unique missions in our higher education system. From a data perspective, I really think we need to do a better job to capture that and I think these kinds of exercises these kinds of new data sets are can really help provide the framework with which to improve those larger, those larger data systems. So those are just some of my some of my thoughts. Wonderful, thank you so much for sharing your comments. Thank you so much, much appreciated. Great, so now it's time to move from our presentation time into our panel so I would love to welcome here with me. Professor Sinena Varendra from Skagit Valley College in Washington, and Dr Emma Miller from South Texas College. We're so glad to have both of you here with us for this panel discussion really grateful for your participation. I just kick off with some short introductions of yourself and a little bit about your role at your college. So Dr Miller, could we start with you. Sure. Good afternoon Ivy. Thank you so much for granting us this opportunity to speak about our programs at South Texas College. Like you said I'm Dr Miller, I oversee currently the organizational leadership program which is a bass degree. And so, but the same time I've had the opportunity to kind of oversee the rest of the bachelor programs as well. Thank you so much for Professor Varendra you want to introduce yourself and share a bit about what's going on at Skagit Valley. I'd be delighted to so my name is Sunaina Varendra. I normally would spell it out because I pronounce it phonetically because it's 15 letters and that gets complicated sometimes. I have the great honor to teach in our bachelor and applied management program at Skagit Valley College. It's a program that's near and dear to my heart because it represents the background that I come from in that I spent 25 years before transitioning into a higher education world. So it's really been an opportunity to bring those learnings into a classroom setting. And I'm also working with our instructional leadership on infusing the same type of philosophy that we're using in our bachelor's applied management program to our other BAS degrees are the bachelor degrees. Well, thank you both. So I want to ask now a little bit about institutional rationale for a CCB and we've just heard about the expanse the different types of programs you're both involved in business programs which are the most common program area. Can you say a little bit about how these programs started and and what the reason was that the college saw for implementing a bachelor's program. Professor Brenda, could we maybe start with you this time. So, you know, it's picking up on what Jonathan was talking about with a community college having a mission and the link that our college saw to bachelor's degrees being a very natural extension so we have a mission like so many other schools that are centered on student success and student achievement and promoting equitable and thriving communities around us. And as we looked at what we were doing as an institution in serving students with associate degrees we realized that that was kind of that terminal pathway for many of our students. It was a terminal pathway. So bachelor's degrees and introducing a portfolio bachelor's degrees for schedule just became a natural extension of or natural fit of how we fulfill the mission. How about South Texas. Could you tell us a little bit about how these programs came to be. Yes, actually they began probably back in 2003 when the legislature looked into giving more opportunities to students in their communities and so Texas had an initiative called 60 by 30, where they're trying to reach by 2030 to have 60% of all Texans that are within the age groups of 25 to 34 to have some type of certificate or associate or baccalaureate degree some kind of educational degree. And so, as a result of that, that is why we were identified as one of three community colleges to be able to offer baccalaureate degrees and so since then an actual until present day we're the only ones that have been allowed to grant up to five baccalaureate programs at our college. Yeah, thank you for that. You know we've talked some about, you know, at the at the program level but I want to dig into what the program actually looks like. One of the things that we know from some previous research that our team has done is that we know CCD programs serve a high share of historically underserved students that the average age in the two states where we where we have these data in Washington and Florida students are in their early 30s on average. So how do you create a bachelor's program that works well with their lives and considers their goals and needs and experiences holistically. What does that look like. We go to Dr Miller first. I mean, so basically when they develop these programs, as you know, community colleges were known for workforce programs right. So, with that in mind, this is how they created the baccalaureate degrees with a workforce in mind so we basically have just like an associates degree program we have advisory committees and those advisory committees dictate to us how you know what the program should be. What does the market look like what kind of skills our students should have in each of the programs and so based on that is how we designed our courses. And so that students once they graduate they're able to, you know, be gainfully employed quickly. So that allows us to just not only provide with the types of traditional courses but we also offer competency based education which will, you know, we can get into a little more into one of the later questions that you'll have. Yeah, Professor Brenda would love to hear from you what what does this the baccalaureate program look like. So I'm going to talk specifically about my program which is the applied management degree at Skagit. And this, this was a program that when we when we designed it. One of the things that we realized was that the number one thing we were competing against in terms of getting students to be able to attend our program was their lives right. So what I mean by this is that all of almost all my students work, almost all of them have other things going on in their lives and their time as a college student is just a teeny tiny fraction. So what I've got to be able to do to deliver an experience that that will help students get through the experience but also make it something that they feel is worth the time, sacrificing time with their family time away from, you know, all the other many things is to is to ensure that I have a program that is relevant and that it's accessible. And the way we did this for this particular for this my particular program is by going with a cohort model. So it sounds a little counterintuitive how does a cohort model work with, you know, with, with making a program accessible so this is because what we have done is really limit the amount of time students have to spend in seat. It's independent learning. It is really structured around how the workplace operates in that we give you the support and then we say now work in project teams to come up with solutions and with answers. You know, so there's a hybrid structure that's involved. One of the things that I'm focusing now is how do we take all the learnings that we had of teaching through covert and bring that into an into an educational environment where I'm preparing my, my students to be able to function in a workforce that's going to be more and more technologically demanding and require those types of skills. In addition to in addition to just the program design we have also we operate on a spiral learning design model educational model so we've been able to streamline the entry requirements and we provide all of the gen eds as well as the management content within the program itself so there aren't a huge bunch of entry barriers as a way of getting in. Once you're in the program you work through it like one course building on another one quarter building on another. And we make sure that we are continually finding that learner education by having things like double teaching in team teaching in our gen eds. We all have a gen ed subject matter expert and then someone like me in the classroom always making sure on the course not necessarily in the classroom. Always make sure there's learner learner engagement and learner, you know everything is contextualized to the workplace environment and the workplace. And then the other the other part of it is just a bunch of instructional supports that we have done for this I have to just give a giant shout out to my fellow faculty because we are doing things in a way that certainly we've done them and schedule it before we've put in a cap of $50 per textbook per course in the program. So no course will have a set of books that will ever cost you more than $50. That is, you know, something that is a huge hidden barrier for students when you think about that we are doing things like having common rubric so it's the same set of rubrics for all courses. So we can do this because we've tilted or we've made all of our assignments have a very similar structure, and the changes come in the actual content of the assignment, kind of building on from that and I am very passionate about my program so I can talk forever, on this but the other, the other, the other thing that I am, I just again I take my hat off to my faculty is our learning modules, all look the same. So students on spending time having to navigate where do I find this and of course where do I have to find that and of course, it's all structured along the same along the same parts. So what what that's meaning is that you know we're still an early days I'm only recruiting for my fifth cohort now and it's a sample size of about 100 odd people who have gone through the program before so far but I'm seeing about 75% completion in two years. So 75% of those who enter the program are finishing in two years, 80% of finishing within three years and you know what that means to kind of build on what Dr Miller was saying is they're now able to make that contribution to the workforce and to their own families, you know, livelihood and prosperity and their own economic empowerment. Thank you so much for sharing that and we invited you because you're passionate about your program. We brought you here to talk all day about this amazing program that you lead. So thank you so much for sharing, and Dr Miller the way that Professor veranda is describing the sort of the changes in the structure to make it more accessible for students is making me even more curious about what CBE and other any other strategies in use at South Texas look like to make these programs really available and accessible for students who might want to enroll. Could you tell us more about that. Yes, so very similar to Dr veranda, in terms of everything being very similar course to course or students don't get lost that's part of CB, but competency based education. We are, you know, and I'm a passionate about my program to like basal organizational leadership program right that's the program that I oversee. It is the largest of all five programs, and it is both traditional online seven week and seven weeks CBE. So competency based education basically brings in and leverages the prior learning that the student has, as you know our students are non traditional students, and like not very in the set. So they'd have other responsibilities. And so yes, it is this much for education right, but they know that they need that degree to finish and learn, you know get promoted in their program. So our programs are all based on the three a's. They're affordable, because they are only $850 per seven week term for as many courses that you can successfully pass. So there are no cost to books. We are using open education resources so that the students do not have to worry about paying for books. So that's huge. Right for our students because if you remember going to school, you probably paid $200 for a book at one time. And so that that is gone in our programs. So all of our programs, but the exception I believe of nursing at this time, or we are 100% also accessible. What that means it's 100% online, all of our programs. And in terms of except for the BSN. Nursing is not the one. And so of course they're accelerated because competency based education allows that student to bring in their work for you know their work experience and move quickly through the programs. So the students can take the core the lower level all the way up through their upper levels in their leadership program, all competency based, which means they will quickly finish their programs. So our students that have earned an associate's degree on average will graduate with within about a year and a half with their baccalaureate degree. And so that is amazing because that means that that's going to be that much faster that the students going to be able to get promoted or move up to a different area that they maybe want to pursue in terms of the workforce. Move on to a graduate program, which by the way 20% of our students move on to graduate programs are being successful. So we're very excited about that. And, and the demographics are there. It's the same 25 to 34 age group that you're talking about that are expanding our programs. And most of those programs, like I said, are all CBE with the exception of the BSN. And they are just, and now we have stackables from certificate to associates, all the way up to their baccalaureate and their competency base. So imagine the money, the time that they're going to, you know, reduce, and then turn it around so that they can help, you know, their families and change their lives forever. Thank you for sharing I'm thinking of both of your remarks and just it's amazing what you can do when you build a program with students real lives in mind. So congratulations to both of you on the many successes of your students and your programs. So you've each shared a little bit about the students who enroll in your programs of students that you have taught. You know that 25 to 34 age group is really critical. I'm curious, just as you've gotten to know students, what they've told you about why they're doing this, why did they enroll. Many of students who you know are in the early 30s have been out of college for quite some time and decided to come back. So I'm curious if you could share a little bit about who your students are and what they're hoping to experience or gain from the community college baccalaureate program. Dr Miller, do you want to take this one first. Sure. When we think about when you went to the university. What do those classes look like 100 students 200 students. And so you really didn't get that one on one that you do at a community college. It just seems that every time that I talked to our students they all, even if they registered at the university local university they'll say you know what no I want to go back to my community college because they're offering the baccalaureate degree, but I'm also going to get that support that I need that I had when I was there. They're very approachable they're very friendly they're helping me right away I know exactly where to go I'm not going to get lost. And so they're looking at that plus the fact that it's not going to. The cost is also a big factor in why they return to community colleges right, and if the degree is accredited the same way then why not. It's important to them because they're going to they have all that support, plus in our programs we actually have an academic coach. And the academic coach is crucial in all of our programs not just for the CBE but they work with also the traditional online students. So that's academic coach works with that student from the moment they enter the program all the way to the graduation to ensure their success. They're the liaison if you will between the faculty and the student and the student and the faculty member to ensure that they're not going to fall through the cracks. And so that is absolutely important and it's sometimes you know they don't fail because of academics, they might fail because of the personal things are going on in their lives. And so if they have somebody to share that information with like their coach. They're going to they're building that relationship. And so what they might not tell me as a faculty member they will share for their academic coach. And so then the coach will let me know and then I know what you know how to better help that student. And so I think that that's huge for our community colleges, something that we offer that perhaps they might not have at a university. I'm curious about how that works at Skagit Valley and I know Professor veranda we've spoken before like a couple years ago about your program and you have like a really, because it's a cohort model your students are really tight knit. I think with you and everyone else so I wonder if you could share a little bit about the students and and their, their goals and and who they are. Yeah, I'd be happy to so I'm, you know, the, the, the community that we build that each that each cohort is building or has built is something that I think is is mind blowing, because it is tight knit. I think the 2425 students, each year, invite each to invite them to each other to weddings to be godparents to be you know to be engaged with each other and that has come as a function of being together for two years right that same group of students to get to know each other really well. In addition to that because I advise each of my students and each of the faculty are actually also the advisors, and with with some support from from someone like dr miller just described. We get to know each other really really well. So I am aware of when there is something going on in someone's life that is impacting them directly and unable to make the difference or to make the accommodation or to point the student in the right resources. And why this has become so I think so why this is so important is is function is essentially because as as we've talked about, we're dealing with students who have been, you know, dealt a very unfortunate hand right now so you know when many of the students are coming from under underserved in terms of the economic situation and they're in their life situations, whatever that is, and often this type of engagement is the first sign of kindness that someone has shown them or the first sign of interest that someone has shown them. We go, and it's not just me as I said it's also the students and the relationships they're building with each other that that's that's forcing that, or that's that's driving that. You know the range is is fantastic within the class itself you go from about 18 because we can have students who have completed their associate degree, while they're in high school in Washington State to 60 plus. And what happens with that is that that creates a learning environment that is phenomenal because the 18 year old is teaching the 60 plus year old, the tech stuff, and the 60 plus year old is teaching the 18 year old the life skills. And so I mean, it's so much magic I mean that's the true magic of what we see going on and it's what gives me the the energy to keep going every single day. Did I did I answer that question Ivy was there something. Yes, I think you did and what I'm hearing from both of you all together as both in the program structure, and then the students who come that these are very people centered opportunities. programs are built with students lives as whole people, and that that's meaning the world to those students and to their communities so I really appreciate you both sharing. I have one more question that I'm going to ask the both of you. And then I want to remind folks who are watching that the Q amp a box is open. I do have some time after this. I have questions both about the data presentation and any questions that you may have for our panelists so I want to give you a couple minutes while we do this next question to enter those and I will ask as many as I can. So my last question for you is this. We have our inventory done for the time being it's it's always going to be a moving target with new states new institutions new programs. We know that there are other states considering this policy know that there are other institutions wanting to build programs. So if you were talking to state higher education leaders somewhere where they do not allow community colleges to offer any bachelor's programs, but they're interested. What advice would you give them when they're really early in that conversation what do they need to know that you've kind of learned through experience about why these degrees exist and what their purpose is. I think Professor Brenda you're on unmute so I think you volunteered yourself to go first. So I mean I think if I if I were to if I were in a conversation with the state legislature on this topic I think the thing I would try and impress on them is, how could you not right. If we are serious about, you know, improving the, the opportunities for everyone out there how could we not create pathways for people to receive the educational attainment. So they're not shut out of life opportunities. So they can benefit from the lower mortgage interest rates so they can benefit because you know there's that connection between the level of the interest rate you're going to get and the, and the level of education that you have. How could we not and I think about the, I would bring in a personal example of a student one particular student to mine, who has just completed his completed his associate degree of bachelor's degree about two years ago, and was just elected to the city council of the town in which he was elected. And you talk about how that could not have been an option for him. Well he not had he not had this type of, you know, the confidence that he got from the program that the camaraderie the, the, the, you know, the platform essentially. And it's really how could you not as much would be, would be the thing not database and emotional plea from the heart. Thank you for sharing. Dr Miller what would you tell state policymakers about what the CCB is for. I think that if they look at the number of students that have some college credit or no credit in their state that that is a big drive because there's a lot of students out there with so many credits and no degree. And so these programs have been, at least in our area have been developed to for that purpose, to be able to accept all the credits that are out there that they've had for to accept up to 90 of those credits into our programs. So for example, if you earn an associates degree in a community college and you transfer over to a university, you're not going to get much out of that transfer, right the students going to learn lose many credits, and that process. And so in a community college, we don't, we will, we will take those credits, and then whatever is pending is what the student will take to continue on and finish that baccalaureate degree. It's important because imagine if you spent all that time and resources to earn that associates degree, or maybe you just life happens to the student as many of us have, you know, I have to do is look at code and see what happened there and take all those students that say okay I have some credits but what do I do. Where do I go. I don't have to start from day one. And so these programs these baccalaureate degrees are huge they're so important to those students in terms of finishing that degree. Getting that self confidence that they gain after they earn it that they can do anything, if they can do this they can do anything. And so that's important, and not only in terms of self validity, if you will, but also the economic impact that our students are, you know, generating because they've earned their baccalaureate degrees. So it's, that's what I would tell the politicians, and we are wanting. We are already asking for more than just the five but we have said no right now but I'm hoping that at some point, they will allow us because they can see the success. It's in the data. All they have to do is look at the data that in within at least within Texas what we've generated that will help them make a decision in their states. Thank you so much for that. So before I look at the questions it's occurred to me that there may be things that you wanted to share that we didn't get to so I just want to give each of you an opportunity you know what what did I miss in my questions. Is there anything else that you would like to share and I'll just allow you to come off mute if you have anything else that you would like to share I'm not going to, I'm not going to call on people for this one. I did forget to mention Ivy is in our CBE programs. I did mention that right there $850 they carry a special tuition for our students there. No books, no cost in the books, but what I didn't mention was the fact that the student for that same $850 can actually take as many courses as they can successfully pass within those seven weeks. Imagine if you have a student that, for example, I had one that took time off of work, he took at least three or four weeks off of work to finish his upper levels. So he actually finished eight courses in seven weeks. So that obviously that's an anomaly right, but it does happen with competency base. Now right now he's finishing his last two so in two terms $1,700 later, he's got his he's going to be earning his baccalaureate degree. That's what competency by education does for somebody with prior learning work experience that can bring it into your courses, leverage that and why do you have to sit in a class for 16 weeks. Thank you for sharing that. Thank you for sharing that congratulations to your student ahead of time that's really wonderful. And I have to say I'm a little bit envious of Dr Miller's competency based education, the model that's there because I think that is just one of the most fantastic things that could happen in terms of recognizing and honoring the life that we're going to bring to bring to the educational environment. I think the one other thing that I would just kind of point out is the, the type of institutional support that that certainly I've enjoyed to be able to do some of the things I've been able to do. And you know I've been blessed that I have some phenomenal executive deans that I work with who have provided me with the air cover as I've broken eggs when I've been making a college president who believes in the power of the community college baccalaureate, and has been willing to put resourcing behind it and I think that is such an important thing when you can have faculty and administration coming together to you can harness the power of something that is truly magnificent, and then make a difference to to to people's lives. Just, it's been a magical partnership. Thank you so much. All right, let me just know quick I'm going to open the spreadsheet of questions and see what we've got here. Let me ask first, we've got a question about course scheduling. We got a question that said any advice regarding course scheduling any consideration of the block model of course scheduling to make them more accessible to adult and working learners have either of you done block program or anything like that do you have advice for folks I mean with the competency based education that's a little different maybe Professor Render do you have any thoughts about how you scheduled the in person part of your hybrid programs. Yeah, I mean we when we were doing in person learning we were just one day a week and we had three classes and students were asked to come to campus. It was limited contact time it was only 90 minutes per class, but it was done one day a week recognizing that that would help students to plan their lives right, and that is the number one thing as you think about, you know how you set up the schedules think about how it is possible that you're not requiring multiple trips to campus. You're also helping students to manage childcare you're helping students to manage you know elder care find child, whatever the things that you're juggling and finding that our advisory committee was phenomenal with helping giving some some input from an employer perspective is this is when they could, you know afford to have people not be present at work and, and that was a really big, big resource in that. Another thing that's linked to block scheduling and this is sometimes overlooked when we think about instruction is how you can synchronize due dates for assignments. So we've actually moved to now we have a single assignment due date of Sundays. And what that means is that the students have to plan ahead to get the work done and to schedule it in but it would works with them. And that kind of goes with the block scheduling as well. So predictability is key. Yeah. And with the seven week terms you're always going to turn over at that time build it in your life where you want. I can see the value in both of those models for students to be able to fit this into the many roles that they have. I'm going to flag for our data presenters that we got a bunch of questions about the data so I may call on you in just a moment to respond to some of these let me just see what else we've got here. So, let's talk about this question here do you think the field has leveled off and most remaining states will not move in this direction. I might pass the answer to the, I might call on Dr Brad to take that one if you would like. I'm happy to offer some comments as well but want to give you an opportunity. My answer is no. I don't, I don't think we've hit some sort of roadblock I do think there's, you know, you might be familiar with the idea of sort of policy borrowing. And I think what we saw in the West is a lot of states were learning from one another and they were sharing in that region of the country. As we often do in our country we share regionally but we, we're not going to name states today that are in deliberation, but we know of at least two states that have had legislative activity. They pushed off this decision, but have appointed task force forces to look at it so I do think it's still a very, very active higher ed policy issue. Yeah, I will just to respond to this question, I, I'm multitasking too much right now but I will. I'll tweet out a link to blog posts that we wrote a few weeks ago about 2021 legislative roundup on Community College Baccalaureates and how many bills. And as I think as we heard in the data presentation, you know, Arizona has just passed their legislation. Just this week, they published in a few news stories, a list of programs that they're thinking about going for, which was there were seven programs on that list which is quite a lot for a new institution so that's really exciting. So on an institutional level, that's one thing, but we saw California this year also pass a bill that expanded authorization beyond what they had before which was 15 institutions with one pilot program per institution. And now they've removed those caps removed the pilot status, there's still a limit on the number of programs that they will be able to approve per year 30 total per year is the limit but any college could propose a program and theoretically do that. So, even in some states where it's already authorized it could grow. So, yeah, I think there's there's more state policy to come. And I will, I will tweet that blog post out. So if you are on the Twitterverse you can see it there. Let me pull up one more question that had to do a bit with the data. Do you have examples of what falls in the other and unknown category from that last slide, because there were a lot and some of the older states. I'm going to drag do you want to take that one to and then I'll chime in as needed. Well, I'll let, I'm going to queue up Tim Harmon though who who has really been managing this part there. It is really a vast array. You know there's everything from culinary arts to tourism to I can't even think, you know, it sort of runs the gamut, what you would expect, you know, the rest of the higher ed curriculum to look like. So, there is a, most of it is pretty workforce connected, but it is quite a wide range and I see Tim's online so I'm going to step back and let him comment. So Ivy is the question about degree types. On the last slide where there's that unknown and other category where it's the, it's the 100% bar charts for the four or the five most common conferring states and the national data. So it was like stem business education and then there's that in nursing and health and then there's that piece at the top that's unknown or other and folks are wanting to know what the unknown and other is. Okay, so I think that's the focus there is on program categories right. Yeah, there. Yeah, yeah, it is quite a collection of of of CIP codes I mean it really covers the gamut I mean I can maybe pull up to give you some examples of what we're talking about here but Human Services is another area that I think has really emerged probably related to the pandemic as well. So we do see a number of public administration public policy human services, behavioral sciences. And my research goes back many, many years and that is an area I didn't anticipate emerging. We certainly see those programs in Washington and Florida and now we're seeing them elsewhere as well. And, yeah, and I think there's, there are programs that, you know, if we were taking a closer look we might categorize I mean it differently but I think that that's what we know we have a lot of different. I mentioned the degree categories earlier there I know there's a lot of sort of obscure, frankly, to me, degrees that are that were being offered in the bachelor of science degrees and computer science but that's that's a category that's already that's already shown there. Sustainability studies, the, you know, geospatial design architecture saw water. And some of them are kind of intersect the engineering category but maybe not directly because they're more like sort of environmental or biological science categories so there's just a wide range of possibilities there and it is a lot of programs you're right. Yeah, I think there was a lot of there were a lot of ag programs that only a couple of them were on like the stem list of six digit zip codes that we were using so there are a bunch of ag programs in there too which I think one could argue our stem programs but we're going to stick stick to the list and stick to the standards that we've got. Yeah. One of the things I think that's emerging and interesting too is, I think a number of the programs really cut across their interdisciplinary. So you'll see, because jobs are changing, and the workforce is changing, and there's an expectation that people will be able to do you say ag water and sustainability and public policy. So they bring together. You know, I think in their efforts to meet local workforce needs are working with employers and say what is that, what is that optimal mix of skills and competencies that our students need in order to serve our community and to me that is one of the most exciting aspects, and they're really some of them are really quite creative and and producing graduates that are really doing some amazing things so that's important. And also, I mean, we don't have complete coverage, I think, on CIP coding as I recall so we still we have a few that are that we don't, we don't know. We have three, three to five at the bottom that didn't see that we have many, but yeah those are mostly other things, not unknown. Yeah, alright I have one more question before we call it a day. And that is, if we change our understanding of the categorization of institutions where it's not as strictly two year four year and we acknowledge some of the blurring that's happening. Is that going to be detrimental to community colleges state funding. What what is one of the funding implications for any shift in categorization that happens. Dr. Bragg, I'm going to throw that question to you and Dr. Turk, I welcome your thoughts as well. I know it's above my pay grade. So, I mean inherent in that question right is the discussion of performance based funding models and the various different equations and models that are out there at states and so nothing I'm going to be able to say right now is going to wave a magic wand and just for all of those different models but you know the contrary, the other side of that argument is, when I was working in DC, the number of times I would feel calls from people that asked me why are there fewer community colleges each year. With this great concern that suddenly we were having a rash of closings of community colleges and the explanation that I had to give them is oh no, they're just being counted in the four year institution group. And so I use that as the example to say that when we completely remove any discussion of the mission and purpose of the organizations and focus solely on what degrees that they award, you're missing the main points of the institution. And so that's what can happen when you have those kinds of situations. So, I mean, I think, you know, for the most part states that states with performance based funding that have community colleges off the baccalaureate degrees as well as associate degrees, there are elements of the of the models themselves of the equations that an award for the different missions essentially of the community college and so they're not necessarily being held to the exact same standards across their their associate degree completions and certificate completions and things like that as they would be their bachelor's degree completions like there's some bifurcation that can occur in those programs as well. But I think the larger point is that really we really should be thinking a little bit more critically, I think about higher education in general, and how we talk about institutions and how we design these kinds of systems because like I said that the default of whatever your highest degree level is and this kind of old really antiquated system of everything that it means to be a four year institution that's gone out the window now. And I mean not to geek out too much on the data stuff but it's what we're here for. Okay, it would be cool to have rather sort of a band in these nominal categorizations entirely and have a more ratio view of the mix of the institutional referrals by degree type, for instance, that might give us a more nuanced well definitely would give us a more nuanced picture of what's actually happening out there and how it's changing over time which is Jonathan's point about what are we losing colleges know we're not we're just changing what they do a little bit. And sometimes it's just a little bit. Definitely. Well, I want to thank everyone here so much for this amazing event. We're really grateful for all of your time for sharing your experiences your expertise really really appreciate all of you. And we're very grateful everyone who attended today. Our paper is available I will tweet that as well. I'm not very active on Twitter but I will tweet several things out for the folks who are here to be able to access the materials easily. I really appreciate you all and wish you a great afternoon and a great rest of the week to take good care. Thank you Ivy. Thank you Ivy.