 This is the first seminar out of three seminars that we are going to be hosting during the next two three weeks on different aspects regarding mobility. All of this started with the moment when we translated the Atlas on mobility in Europe and we thought that it was very important to to travel in Europe but also the conditions of mobility within Europe are very different and we wanted to focus on Spain. That is why we have decided to create different info sheets and information with regards to mobility here in Spain. And our colleague Raúl from Transición Verde, Fundación Transición Verde, is going to talk to us about different aspects and then we will talk about aviation. And we have Sergio Alegre from the European Organization of Cities which have an airport, which have airports in their geography. And then we will also have Joan Herrera from El Prat, the airport El Prat, who will explain the situation at El Prat with the idea of increasing the space of the airport with everything that it entails. But before we give the floor to Raúl, there is an anecdote I wanted to share with you because now that we have the mobility days, I wanted to leave this mobility in Europe actually as a protagonist because I've actually taken three different means of transportation, a plane, a train and a bus, a coach, so that I could get to the place I find myself in right now. And I have to say that the only means of transportation that was a one-off that is not usually something I do is plane because the rest was actually a miracle for me to actually reach any place with train and bus. In countries such as Spain and Germany in both places is something that we need to dig deeper and we need a long debate, an intense debate on this. How can we really develop a better sustainable mobility that will give us the option of moving around but also respecting the environment. So today we start with aviation and I will be giving the floor to my colleague from the Foundation Transition Verde Raúl Gómez so that he can explain to us how the Atlas came about this Atlas that Heinreich Boll did that I've already talked about. Thank you so much Susanne. Good afternoon everyone. Thank you so much to the Green European Foundation and to the Foundation Sons because as Susanne has said we are going to talk about aviation we want to also present to you the European Atlas of Mobility. This Atlas was created by the German the German Foundation Heinreich Boll Stiftung and this is something that they started doing in 2013. These are Atlases and actually Atlas is already a word that is self-explanatory. We try to tackle in a complete way from many different perspectives, matters that are fundamental for the environment and for the future of our societies. Up till now they did the Atlas of Meat, the Atlas of Coke or a Carbon of Soil, lots of different things. They're all available in their website in German and in English and we have actually translated many of them into Spanish and what we are presenting here today is the Spanish version of the Mobility Atlas and the previous one that we also translated was the Insects Atlas. These are topics as I said that are fundamental for the future of our planet and they are considered in a very large way, a very holistic way and this European Atlas on Mobility, the Spanish version, has been translated by the Green European Foundation and we talk about the transport in Europe since its origins until today. It actually knows horizons also was in charge of the translation and we have to say that we used to be an innovative center with regards to technologies and means of transportations and the means of transportations have been basic for the development of our cities. Obviously the easy way in which we could move either fright or people was fundamental in order to configure the society we live in. More specifically for the European Union it has really helped for the cohesion of the European Union, a European Union without frontiers such as that one that we currently have. But this ease of movement that we have been enjoying obviously comes at a price and that price is for transport in Europe to be almost represent almost 30% of our CO2 and greenhouse gas emissions and these are data that are reflected on the Atlas and I don't think it's necessary for us to talk about climate change because it is obvious that we have to reduce our emissions. So since that is what currently mobility is facing and what Europe is facing but it tries to analyze is how to reduce those emissions without it being translated into a loss of employment. We have to try and match the need for your job creation and a future low on emissions. So the challenge that transportation faces is huge because we're not just talking about electrification we're talking about new fuels, digitization, automatization so obviously it is a change in paradigm almost I'd say it's a key moment it's a tipping point it's a milestone in in the transportation sector in Europe and obviously we cannot forget about employment and that's due to obvious reasons but just to give you some figures transport in Europe represents 13.8 million jobs those are the jobs that are linked to the transportation sector and it is it represents 7% of the GDP what in what is produced in the EU that comes from transportation so we have to reduce our emissions while we maintain our jobs and while we strive to improve our future so in the Atlas we see clearly that this is a multi-layered effort it has to be a national international municipal regional effort but all of it within a global framework which in our case is the EU we are obviously linked by geography and laws where the whole series of geographies that will have an impact on our decisions that is why the Atlas needed to be European and this EU that currently is betting for a green pact a new green deal European green deal that wants to reach climate neutrality also needs to include transportation and review the regulations for transportation in Europe and obviously that has also been said in the Atlas what the possibilities are following that thread that line and these changes will also obviously require modifications in infrastructures and that means financing sometimes they say that the real political will can be seen in financing if we want to change something if it doesn't have its own budget then it is only empty words and beside the pluriannual budget that goes from 2021 till 2027 we currently have set up well actually in Spain we are the first country I believe to have already presented some concrete projects we have the next generation funds much of that of those funds I'm sure you'll know about this but I'm going to say it quickly these are funds that supposedly are to be used for an energy transition and a digital transition in Europe and they are a very important inflow of money it's 70 billion euros in Spain and then 70 billion in loans so part of this transformation as I said previously you understand the importance of emissions has to go through this through transportation and we have to bet for a transportation model that is much more sustainable in Europe it's true that something is changing until the 80s transportation was completely excluded from policies from european policies but in 1983 we started considering this topic as something serious that needed to be taken seriously and we started making progress but since we started so late there is a lack of coordination basic things such as the width of rails in trains that is not compatible in all countries even within countries high-speed trains and conventional trains don't have the same the same width in their rails and obviously we also need to have a cross-border european network we have to develop a series of initiatives that in this european atlas on mobility are highlighted also the atlas contains obviously analysis of the best practices that can be exported or that need to be studied in depth i don't want to feed you too much information because in your registration um in your registration form you had a link to the atlas so when the days are over we will send you an email once again with the link so that you can visit the atlas but i wanted to say that beside this spanish version of this european atlas as susanne has already said we wanted to do something more we wanted to land it to spain and mobility in spain so transithium berde has decided to work with a green european foundation and henrik boil and knows her horizons and the sustainability observatory so that we could create an annex for the atlas on the situation in spain which will be available online and will be completely free and we have updated the data regarding mobility in spain we have obviously considered all the different sectors all the different transportation modes aviation um railways maritime transportation and we wanted to land it or or really put it within context what really worries us on the day to day what citizens need when they're going to travel when they're going to move around and something i didn't want to forget was the fact that the atlas contains a few thoughts about what the covid pandemic has meant to it how the patterns have been modified how how mobility has changed how it has paralyzed many infrastructures for instance the aviation sector has completely has been radically changed and also this moment this change in paradigm required for will actually allow this to see things differently so as i said we will be sending the links again so that you can take a look at these documents and now i don't want to take more time from our colleagues or my co-speakers who are going to talk about aviation specifically which is the topic that we're going to be dealing with during this session so thank you so much and you have if you have any doubts you can always write them down on the chat and when the presentations are done we will try and answer your questions thank you very much thank you so much raul so we will start with um planes and aviation and for that to happen we have two specialists here one in the field and another one in this specific topic so i will give the floor to sergi so that he may continue with his presentation okay thank you very much susanne and thank you so much raul and thank you so much uh to the green european foundations uh thank you so much to knows horizons and transefion verde for allowing me to be here today with you and to share a few ideas a few informations with regards to that simple thing which is aviation obviously i'm i'm joking it's not simple in europe so due to my personal condition and my family condition my my surname i'm always optimistic so because his name is alere which means joyful in spanish so in general i think that we can see um because you see that in the pandemic we have had some peak moments and then some moments when the figures went down well i think that aviation in europe and i repeat in europe i think that the peak moment has already gone by and i think that in general there is a trend and i will try and share with you my arguments the wise of my reasoning what takes me to drawing this conclusion and this these ideas so in europe we are seeing a sort of confluence of factors that i believe need to make us think that we are making progress so that aviation finds its natural place and occupies its natural place with regards to transportation means i think that aviation is making progress in europe and it is taking the place it should take which is that of of long long travels so that's the specter in mobility i think that the uh intercontinental transfers on long holes that is what we need to use planes for because i think that we have maybe in 200 years they will laugh at us but if we look at what happened 10 000 years ago or 20 000 years ago we have really advanced thanks to planes and that is a natural spot for planes long holes sometimes when we talk in brussels because i work in brussels as raul said i am the general director or susanne said i am the general director of a european association of cities and regions that have airports in their territory it's been 18 years when we talk to stakeholders of this sector obviously it's usually airlines and airports when you tell them well this is where we're headed sometimes they laugh at us and say no sometimes they say no because they don't like it and others because they don't see it but i always give them the same example when my father purchased his first car in 1975 last century last millennia someone would have told him there will be a time where when you cannot drive your car at the speed you want in any city in any street in your city he would have laughed as well but that's what's happening now isn't it and with much effort and with uh progress and steps backwards obviously and with and there are places where the speed is higher and others it's it's lower well in all of europe we see that this is being applied the cars are going to be in their place and i mean i know that during the expansion the car was in a place that wasn't its natural place well with aviation we see that there is a parallel evolution at the beginning it was only for rich people then there was an explosion in its use and then there's a moment when luckily enough because people have proposed have been proposing this for many years well in general we reach a moment when we understand that we have to to kind of of stop we need to use our brains when using this tool because it's actually a tool a tool such as a plane or a car those are tools and we have to use it in the best way for the whole of society so what are the elements in europe obviously there are differences but in europe i think that first of all there's politics politics pushed by awareness social awareness but politics i mean the step taken by france obviously there are exceptions and we could make as many comments as we want and now there aren't any flights of less than 500 kilometers if there is a train alternative for those of you who are within politics or close to politics you know that that is a very important step especially because they were the first to take it and because it wasn't a small country either it wasn't a country that didn't have an important weight within the EU i mean france is important in that sense so that's step logically and i think that people who are within the world of politics or close to green parties the european greens we have to push so that this debate takes place that needs to be this next step for all three big countries in europe so that would be the other three big countries would be obviously germany the new government the green party which is in the government has it in its in its program in its political program then italy and spain due to their size those are the three big geographical countries that i think will have to take that step and they have all the elements for that step to be taken then there's sweden and norway although that you know that norway is not completely present in EU but they have their own orography and it's difficult actually for them to make progress in that in that sense but i will tell you what direction they're advancing and then the next is the uh decided a bet for trains in europe when you are giving your supports um maybe it's insufficient i know from our point of view many of the people who are in the green movement currently either socially or politically but it's clear that we are betting for trains politically and it's something that that is consistent that can be seen and nobody is actually challenging that and then there is an important element that green parties need to take into account which is what appears on the atlas and it's something that that is really the framework for this talk today we the hernubal stung talked about the border bottlenecks um as opposed to the aviation world which was born thinking internationally that's why i always explain the same thing i mean it's the it's the the most tailor made uh transportation method for instance um your boarding pass in order to go to china from china to hawai has the same information than um boarding pass that goes from um nirobi to to laos so the railway systems state railway systems are thought nationally it's nationwide not international so they think about their own geography because there weren't really many cross border trains and andaya for instance is the end of of our railway system in spain for the people who are listening to us here today and in europe we see and you should all read the atlas in that chapter we show that that is the case in europe there are states that are not connected because 14 kilometers are missing 15 kilometers of railway are missing and this is something that is being considered right now and it's not being discussed as hotly as we would like i'm sure but it is there and then we also should say that there's the mindset as well because most of the railway companies are not very competitive there is no competitive there is no competition so the client the the client the consumer is actually captive and we the greens need to have an impact so that that changes because we have demands with regards to quality level um characteristics and services and we sp and we spanish people when we purchase a niberia or a volling um a ticket it's it's cheaper than rent than than trains so that needs to change and that that needs to change because we see differences and the differences are worse so it's not just having infrastructures and having trains but also having affordable prices and also we need to have a quality a very a certain quality standard and then there's the impact of the pandemic obviously many of the meetings business meetings that we used to do face to face and that involved an important movement of planes and plane transfers those are going to be lost we don't know the percentage but it's clear that that is going to end because you used to have 10 sales people from company x in Madrid or in Barcelona um well two of them really wanted to go but then there were four who were fed up with going everywhere and then there were two people who didn't want to and then the company knew that that had a cost now that cost can be suppressed can be eliminated by having a zoom meeting a video conference and that is it and then it's the impact in the world of tourism well everybody knows that something is going to change or at least it seems that it's going to change but no one is really sure how that is going to change and what impact is going to have but what i can tell you due to all the information that is usually shared in the sector is that plane transfers due to family and and social reasons and tourism are picking up it's actually something that is picking up everyone who has the possibility the economic possibility really wants to go and spend their money and i think that that's good not because they want to spend i mean not just for spending but because that's that that money is usually going towards socialization going to the movies going to restaurants uh meeting with friends and so on so i hope that people now understand the difference between living and surviving and the money that that is in the banks is going to be kept by the banks we're not going to take it to the other world if there is another world and then there is sensitivity obviously no one is unaware of the fact that the that most people most of society understand the impact that flying has especially environmentally speaking and people are going to keep on getting aware it's not going to go down i don't know how how many people know this but now people don't it's not it's not that they frown upon it but they don't see this positively as they did 30 years ago and that's important and that is already being reflected in the reality and not just in thoughts and ideas but also in specific things for instance luckily british will have to have will have to cannot really keep on enlarging Heathrow and there are no political decisions radical political decisions in the sense in munich a few years ago there was a referendum with regards to increasing their airport with a third landing strip and they thought it was easy the airport the government said that the citizens in munich also should vote although the airport is 45 45 kilometers away and they said no and the social answer political answer or response in most political forces to that proposal to have a fourth a fourth uh landing strip in the prep are actually proof and evidence that show that people don't want that i mean airports cannot keep on getting bigger and if airports cannot keep on getting bigger then aviation will have to to follow that pace and i think that in general we are going towards putting aviation in its place and i will then talk about the reduction of the sector if i have a couple minutes but we're going towards what should be our treatment towards any means of transportation so from the public side we have to give the best condition so that people don't have to move and we are going to raise awareness so that people fly as little as possible so that they move only the bare minimum we need to promote meetings and activities such as this one online things that could be done with other means and that flight should be as efficient as possible as well if you have to fly it has to be as efficient as possible and flying as efficiently as possible from the environmental side is something that follows two lines in europe on the one hand and this has to do with sweden and norway and so on flights between islands and flights between the continent and the islands would be electrical flights it seems that in 2030 in 2030 we could already have some commercial electrical flights with fully electric planes those would be planes for 200 300 kilometers but in many places that's really the key i mean if you look at uh uh norway or italy or if you look at uh situations between islands such as sicily and malta where the continent that is a solution from the environmental standpoint with regards to the flight itself obviously the impact of the airport will be the same but what we're working on is the the um flights in norway mainly and then you have everything that has to do with stuff so the european community is really um betting on that they're currently debating a new proposal which is ref refuel europe aviation where they're already considering they have already decided not to produce fuel uh from the agricultural point of view so it should not be an agricultural production and they're mainly betting on or investing in i mean why have they decided to leave it well because besides figures and calculations and so on beyond all of that from the political and social standpoint this is this is this is too risky because whether they're right or not the production of fuel where the agricultural material is very easily criticized and it's very easily criticized from a social and political point of view so the commission is really now making efforts with regards to waste so benefiting from waste food waste for instance after it's uh incorrect use and waste in general from cities for instance and synthetic waste as well so the person who's who's managing this for those of you who know about this is florida pulido she's a spaniard from the canary islands she is the chief of the unit for policy aviation so all the policies for aviation in the european union a very sensible and powerful person who is giving some meaning to this and so that this can actually be done and if you not only fly less but you fly more efficiently well in the end there will always be a co2 emission so we need to have compensation measures and compensation measures obviously clashes with a taboo in the sector a very powerful taboo and in in politics although there have been dozens of applications and lots of work put on it it's the taboo of taxes on kerosene you know that it's the only fossil fuel that does not pay taxes and a vat to plane tickets i think that from a political standpoint that is a key element because it's not a distortion i mean it has to do with ecological and social justice and market justice we could even think about market justice when when compared to other transportation methods but on top of that it's uh it's something that wouldn't have any impact it wouldn't be an unlawful competition because all companies flying in europe or towards europe would have to pay that tax so it really would allow for an increase in the prices of tickets which could dissuade many people from flying and and it would be um some sort of of forced justice so that's the general framework and facing that there is obviously from a political standpoint the the presence of the greens they're becoming more important for instance there's government government in austria with greens present and in germany the government also has greens and europe you know that it's a club of states it's not a club of regions or citizens it should be or it could be a club of citizens and regions and that is the objective of most of the green representatives but the reality is that this is a club of states but the more awareness there is a state state level then there should be should be an echo and you know that being unanimous is something that blocks many decisions and many of the progress opportunities we have and the sector the the aeronautic and airport sector in the best case scenario is understanding that there is no exit for them that's in the best case scenario and in all families obviously there are people who understand things earlier than others for many different reasons and it's a very strong sector very powerful sector very well very well in very well embedded in brussels and in all european states and they're currently green washing everything there are lots of initiatives in the sector because they've realized that they have to go towards it although they don't like it but they want to control the pace they want to control the steps to be taken they want to be the ones to set their own targets they want to be the ones to set their own achievements and the way in which they can provide economic support if needed in that sense and they always use the lever of well aviation is an international world and and and it was created even before the second world war to manage air transportation we have to follow what iata says and we have to follow this and that and and the carriers in the mid in the in in the middle east they have free kerosene and so on and it's true that there are informations and there are things that do make sense and they're consistent but they use it in a very biased way for instance the polemic that was published three weeks ago about lufthansa saying please please please we have we have empty flights could you please allow us to reduce the number of flights that we have to do in actually in every slot you know the slot is the time that the carrier has to land and to get their passengers out of the plane and then get the new passengers and fly again so it's not the same thing at half past seven to go to Brussels than at eleven in the morning so lufthansa does have no environmental interest whatsoever what they wanted was to obviously instead of flying 80 percent of the times i can fly 50 percent of the time then i'm saving money but i will maintain those lots because i got them because i'm one of the biggest carriers one of the oldest and one of the most powerful ones so so that's the thing so i think that like everything in brussels brussels is simply the loudspeaker where we hear what is already happening in european society so what happens in european societies and european parliaments can then be heard in brussels so the more we push as a society in our states in our countries through the different means that we all have all citizens have the more we will make progress and and i'll finish with this and this image of aviation so that it is for what it needs to be and in an efficient way and when we fly we have to compensate and then something that passengers do voluntarily because you never know where those four or six or 50 50 years you give to british or lufthansa or iberia so that they can compensate the more we push their buttons the more we will be closer to that final landscape that where we will have this uh future that i have introduced to you thank you very much thank you so much sergi for these insights on the aviation world in europe i we already have a few questions regarding all of this but before i give them i give the floor to questions i would like to continue with our next speaker and he is a person and as a person who has taken a plane and who has compensated her ticket i would like to know where my compensation is going and on the other hand i also have taken the plane in el prat in the airport of el prat and there weren't many people in the airport and this i'm sure also has an impact in the situation in the city i'm sure it has an impact in the city where el prat is and we have here today the pleasure of having joanne reda here with us he is the director for the area of environment in the airport of el prat and he is going to tell us about the conversation on the extension of the airport um where there aren't many people i have seen as sergi has explained in europe in europe we have reached a maximum and this maybe is a conversation um and what is the impact in a city such as el prat which leaves around the airport around and with the airport so joanne the floor is yours thank you thank you so much susanne and congratulations i would like to congratulate congratulate the g e f transitio verde and no for this day and for opening up the the conversation about this energy transition that will not be possible if there isn't a change in mobility you have asked me to talk about an experience a bad experience although it was successful in the end and talk about the fight that we at the city council of el prat have been having with regards to the airport extension there are some previous elements that i wanted to give you for context uh we we are not our agenda is not visible in the south of europe because i think that when there is something that is considered in the center of europe with regards to improving mobility um and going from air transportation to railway we mustn't forget that in the south of europe which is an economy of services with great dependence on tourism there will be a great pressure to maintain these flights this cheap flights that will allow for many tourists to keep on coming to the south of europe and these restrictions will be different because obviously distances between the south of europe and central europe are are different they're higher so it's not an agenda that will be easy to push and i think that the result of this agenda was this debate this debate of the airport extension a proposal from the 20th century not even the end of the 20th century it was a proposal that was done in the 80s at the beginning of the 90s in a context of green new deal where they were talking about the next generation and where they were telling us that resilience after the covid crisis needed to be green well the catalan society and much of the spanish society has been spinning around a proposal of the airport extension an airport el brad which reached 54 million passengers pre-covid an airport that had grown a lot i mean that during the last decade an airport that was not interconnected with other closed airports such as the airport of reos or the airport of jirona which are airports that are only half an hour away from rail and with small investments and it was the only alternative so i'm not going to to talk about what sergi has been mentioning because he's very knowledgeable with regards to everything he said but we all know where we need to be headed but but during these last a few minutes we could have a big infrastructures that will be obsolete but that will have a great impact on the territory and in this context we find ourselves in the midst of a pandemic with an airport that that doesn't even reach 20 million passengers nowadays with a proposal for the extension of the airport with the argument and the need for this airport to be um an airport that is a world reference it needs to be a continental an intercontinental hub and that could grow over 70 million passengers per year the argument was that an interconnected airport gave more opportunities to the to the mediterranean area connected companies better attracted big investments and would make lots of multinationals decide to settle here it's an argument that is not very solid because we have experiences diverse experiences all over europe or cities that are very successful don't come in hand in hand with big airports and an argument actually that didn't really take into account the impact the extraordinary impact that tourism has especially low-cost tourism in the growth model of the city of barcelona and all of its geographical area as susanne was saying we are not a city council that lives looking away from the airport much of the the city is within the airport and it is part of one of the the main economic activities that we have in our municipality but it's also true that as a municipality we understood that we reached the consensus a consensus of with regards to the extension of the airport and growth of the infrastructures the beginning of the year 2000s an extension of the port as well the harbor with with the river and also with a combination between two main emitting centers and then protected spaces such as the delta of the yobrera which has a high environmental impact which is the main reservoir for biodiversity in this in the metropolitan area so what was our argument our argument was that the proposal did not fulfill the requirements you know that in order to work in a protected area such as the protected spaces the proposal needed to really show that that which was being affected could be replaced they needed to also show that there were no alternatives that we could only have this option of extending the airport and they also needed to prove that this protected general interest so that we could have that extension so we have in as proposal that wanted for an extension of the landing strip mar 500 more meters on extension that would allow to reach over 70 million passengers that would allow landing flights coming from other continents and mainly the takeoff of these flights because there are more technical difficulties in difficulties and there would be varied environmental compensation such as the creation of lagoons no and what did we do from the city council of el brad well first of all we needed to put it in context we explained that this extension would take place after a warning by the european commission to the kingdom of spain the government of spain and also the government of generalidad because the compensations derived from the enlargement of the harbour and the airport 20 years ago did not fulfill the environmental function actually the yellow dot delta and that has been seen by the european commission has seen a reduction in species a reduction in biodiversity of 60 percent up to 60 percent so what we found ourselves with was that that unexpected situation where they asked for an extension of the airport although the environmental compensations had not fulfilled their objectives and in some cases they simply had not been developed and this is where what we did was a draft a report that we sent to the minister for the for the ecological transition to the commissioner and to the the regional ministry minister where we highlighted the clear unfulfillments or the breaches in in this by the different authorities a loss of quality in the bodies of water the inexistence of a biological corridor that would that would connect the bodies of water iana had talked about a compensation that they should have paid 20 years ago and the degradation of bodies of water for instance the superficial aquifers but a series of elements that made it impossible to accept this extension of the airport and then there is a reasoning which explained the the fact that that of the recarga the recarga cannot be substituted it's a lagoon that connects the sea and it's actually when you land when you land it at del prat it has a high environmental value it has biodiversity values that cannot be substituted cannot be replaced and cannot be compensated with a creation of a different lagoon at the other side of the protected spaces in an agricultural area that is not connected to the sea so that is why we explain that this replacement the substitution could not take place the second chapter that we tackled was the fact that it's not replaceable and there are alternatives aina could not have continued with this proposal because we understood first of all that there were alternatives in the improvement of the landing stripes improvement they said that they needed 500 meters to allow for the takeoff of planes intercontinental flights takeoff but the truth is that the current landing stripes in El Prat in their takeoff processes they have spaces between planes that are that are larger than what we would currently need in Heathrow in El Prat there isn't a policy of getting valley point or peaks into valleys so you know that we have peak moments and valley moments but in Heathrow they do manage that because they have their own policy for the management of this so what we did was put on the table the existence of all the alternatives which is something that the GEF is working on which is the need for a Catalan strategy to guarantee as we have in many countries a better connection between Reus and Irona and Barcelona that would allow for for planes not to have to take off and land in El Prat and some of them could maybe take off and land in Reus and Irona but beyond that element which would maintain aviation what we did put on the table was a proposal that we that we drafted to guarantee the improvement of railway connections the Mediterranean corridor with the south of the France first of all guaranteeing an area where we wouldn't have to fly I mean those those flights that are less than 500 meters I said I think he meant 500 kilometers with the whole Ebro corridor Bilbao pass country and Cantabria we also talked about the improvement of railway connections with those cities which currently are in in the south of Europe and the north of Italy that would allow for railway connections that would improve substantially improve the the the movements in train and that we would also include night trains as we are considering considering right now in order to go from Copenhagen to London that is an element that we also included with much force and this report that we the platform for for public transportation just came to prove that there are alternatives so we could put on the table an improvement of the landing and take off for flights and we also had the possibility of putting on the table the improvements that needed to be made it was paradoxical because if you look at it what we're putting on the table was a million dollar investment by Ayana but the improvements that we thought needed to be done for railway connections intermodal connections such as the one in El Prat that would allow for the connection between airports through railway in our influence area by decreasing times of transfer between airport and railway the new railway stations in Ginona and Reus that would allow not so much a transfer for a passenger from Reusa and Girona in El Prat but rather having certain flights that land in Barcelona could land in Girona and the passenger could then take a train to Barcelona or stay in Costa Dorada well those investments were much much smaller than the 2.5 billion that Ayana was considering it was around 200 million with around 200 million euros we were improving the railway infrastructure and we would be allowing for a decarbonization and the third block that we considered was the defense of the general interest and I think that here we need to really highlight general interest which is not the same we had 20 years ago we currently have to understand that we have a climate emergency El Prat city council has declared the climate emergency as well as Barcelona and the Generalitat and the Spanish state has declared it as well but what's paradoxical about this is that although we have declared this climate emergency and although there is the law for climate emergency we still act as though as though nothing has changed they wanted to operate in infrastructures that they did in the past so we need to understand that the general interest has changed it's not an abstract legal concept it's something very concrete and that has to be defined depending on the circumstances in a scenario of climate emergency you cannot think that the the objective is to enlarge infrastructures that make us more dependent from fossil fuel and that keep on emitting so we understood that with these three arguments and the fact that the affected areas cannot be replaced the existence of alternatives and the improvement of railway connections and a general interest that has changed what we could not is allow for an airport extension what's surprising and look at it I'm actually the debate in Catalonia the debate in in Spain spin around a proposal which was the extension of the airport an old-fashioned proposal that was greenhouse gases emitting and that would increase our energy dependency of well the dependence of our economy and our productive model so they didn't want Barcelona to be a city of reference with R&D and I but rather they wanted to to have all of the Barcelona economy turn into a services economy something that gives less value less added value and I think that that's where we need to fight and this is a cultural fight really this is where we have to change and I will end as I started in this post-pandemic scenario we thought that the green and environmental transition was different even now when we talk about the next generation we are thinking that this green and ecological transition is obvious it's evident but it could happen that during this transition with this energy and environmental transition that has its costs obviously and some some sectors that are impacted we always find the the middle road well Sergio was saying it the aerospace sector knows what its final will be but they're offering proposals that are even crazy such as the proposal of the the El Prat Airport extension that came hand in hand with with a proposal for the extension of the Barajas Airport which was approved I think that it is fundamental here that we are capable of making decarbonization proposals by giving efficient effective real alternatives for the transportation of passengers and for the transportation of freight as well I think that with freight transportation air transportation is is not going to be an alternative it's very difficult for it to be an alternative due to the high cost and and actually the containers coming from Asia could be a factor for the relocalization of some industrial cities that were in Asia and that now could come back to Europe but with regards to passengers transportation what we need to consider is a scenario of alternative improving railways connections and I will finish as I started it will not be an obvious agenda because our economy is an economy that even today even in a post pandemic situation is highly dependent from tourism and services a tourist sector with low costs that has to maintain cheap planes for tourists to reach here at a low price so we cannot talk about aviation and about the air sector without thinking about trains without thinking about trains to transport many people and without thinking about the reconversion of the tourist sector and the operation of new vectors that had to do with green and energy transition things go actually hand in hand because if not what we'll find in two three four years will be a new offensive we have been working very well I think on our alternatives and the irreplaceable characteristic of the reward and the environmental conditions that need to be considered so what are we doing now well currently we are defining a green infrastructure space the El Prat airport is in the delta of Villobrigat just beside the harbor of Barcelona and and it is the main green infrastructure of the metropolitan area it's a green infrastructure because there's any wet area it is the main reservoir of biodiversity although it's not being recognized as such these are protected species that have a ridiculous budget for their management that generally that only gives two hundred and eighty thousand euros for their management it's ridiculous and then we have the main area for agricultural production of the metropolitan area as well so we're talking about zero kilometer production so we need to change our mindset and we need to understand what is fundamental in highly dense metropolitan areas we need to have green infrastructures that at value or to that at value it's not just about how a plane lands and takes off or how a boat or a ship gets here and unloads its fright but rather how we protect our biodiversity how we feed our city with proximity products so we need to have an ecologist mindset it is important to include in our agenda in our infrastructure development agenda the the idea of caring for people feeling our people managing our green infrastructure that provides us values that are irreplaceable such as biodiversity or food sovereignty so lastly i wanted to say that in the city council website you will find all the reports that we have drafted and sent to the different authorities and we also have a report on the alternatives with regards to the functioning of the port and alternatives with regards to railway infrastructures the irreplaceable characteristic of the regard and water bodies what happened with aquifers and also a report with regards to how compensations have failed um environmental compensations have failed and which environmental compensations have not been fulfilled this has allowed us to better explain that the alternative is not about extending the airport but what's obvious is that we have to fight the airport extension with arguments such as yes let's increase the railway infrastructure yes let's better manage our green infrastructures that are as important as those gray infrastructures that are that are currently present in all of our realities susan i tried to respect the time it wasn't 10 minutes but i have tried to to respect the time that was given to me thank you so much don't worry joanne i think that it was very interesting this part of listening listening to what the city council has done to reach this point but i also have to say that we need to know what we will have in the future i think that it's important to know this i will now give the floor well thank you thank you so much john and thank you sergi once again thank you for giving us that that overview of the situation we have a few minutes for your questions because you have a few questions and raul has already been noting some questions on the chat so i will give him the floor and maybe uh both speakers could could turn their cameras on to see who can answer the questions and who can make comments regarding um the different comments thank you susanne well yes there have been a few questions and there have been some interesting comments as well before i ask the questions to the to the speaker sergi and joanne you said you is who needed to leave asked how we could access the recording of the session so i would like to tell all of you who are connected that when these these days are finished when all of these different sessions are finished we will send you a link with um with the different recorded sessions and if you have not um asked for more information from the foundation that will be the time to do so so that we can send the link so the first question was asked by ruhen who's a pilot and he was saying sergi uh that there is the refuel EU directive and he was asking i'm actually telling you because you talked about this during your presentation he was asking whether you have or we have an idea of one more or less this directive could be approved well thank you thank you raul and and i am very happy to know that there is a pilot on this forum it's actually very positive that means that as always i mean it's good to see it live we we mustn't think that we're always talking to the same people we might mustn't be prejudiced so ruin the idea is with regards to this topic a few days before christmas i had the pleasure of meeting with flor and her idea is to approve it before the summer that's her idea but obviously you know that these decisions um are the following the commission makes a proposal that goes through the parliament and there needs to be an agreement between the commission the parliament and the different states and that's where we find ourselves i don't know if you've read last week that there was um some information published at el economista where they said that um european and our were against they were against this proposal and this is in line with what i was saying previously that the sector um obviously wants and it's it's obvious they want to set their own pace and their own initiatives and so on so let's see we have here in all these cases and in the next six months the presidency of europe will be held by france france is the one presiding over the eu and this week there will be something called the toulouse declaration and toulouse and france is working uh together with the states with some of the stakeholders on this declaration and it's actually good but it's insufficient it is not sufficiently ambitious um it needs to advance faster towards sustainability there was another question on the chart saying what else can we do to make progress in this topic well i would like to tell you who are here in spain that during the second semester spain will be the will hold the presidency and the presidency is not just anything we will once again be in a difficult situation it will be a special situation just like with france so at the end of 2023 we will have state elections we will have general elections in spain so i think that those of us who are aware and who are are completely dedicated dedicated to this we could push so that spain really speaks its mind and does something and we have a few months ahead to work so the idea for the commission wants to approve it before summer so flor said i want to go on holidays having closed this that's the idea let's see if it's possible thank you sergi there was also a comment by pedro javier diafalejo he talks about two ideas two concepts that need to be included with regards to the reduction of the use of planes there's the flicks scan for those of you who don't know it this is something that was coined in sweden it is it was like the rejecting or rejecting flying whenever there is an alternative and it's something that the citizen does as a personal initiative and then taxes to fuel something that sergi already said during his presentation such as taxes to kerosene which is something that is absolutely logical it's it's anomalous not to have this and i wanted to highlight the flicks scan because there is a cultural matter here which i think has not been talked about enough during your presentations which is fundamental as well to change our mindset this this is something that john said john i remember sorry if i if i get lost in my explanations for a bit but he talked about the model of society that certain influencers are currently projecting remember christiano ronaldo when he was playing in adrid one day it was said that he had gone to torrento for dinner and then he came back after dinner this is something that a young a young person who's dreaming of being a footballer would want to do as well i want to catch a plane go to torrento for dinner and then come back to madrid and that's it and that would be lovely wouldn't it well this is something that society is projecting and has an impact in our culture and and in our conscience as well and this is something that we have talked to you this tourism of self is you know you fly you take a few selfies and you go back you don't really visit places you just take pictures and that's it and you go back to your your country of origin this this culture of immediacy and this is thanks or thanks to amazon maybe so this should be in this debate but we don't have the time to tackle all of these things but i would really want to to to ask two questions to joan two questions in one uh juan was saying one of the keys wouldn't be social mobilization to force a political decision and sandra was adding the specific case of the airport do you think that the stakeholders and pressure groups will talk about the airport extension again what will be the measures that we need to take and do you think that europe could have a role here so i'm asking you this john because you were talking about the fact that the airport felt very lonely in its fight against the extension okay so before before i answered this question i i have to say that this saying this in a different world this is about individual commitment or a mass option and this is my opinion i think that if there is if there is no control with regards to fuel we will it will only be a decision of minorities so we don't have the tools the cultural tools i mean to be able to fight uh weakened in malta for 50 years if you're a neighbor of the metropolitan area and you can fly to valeta for 50 years you probably will go to la valeta some people might not do it but um people will keep on going to la valeta just as they will keep on going to barcelona and what's the problem we have well our economy does not depend on people going to valeta they depend on many englishmen and german citizens or french citizens will come to barcelona for 50 years so we cannot limit the debate of mobility without linking it to the economic debate because we will not be able to win that debate if we if we don't link them and we need to do it by providing alternatives because the working class only has alternatives in the metropolitan area with these services so how can you do it so we need a proposal that will control the fuel that is linked to ecologic transition just transition with alternatives and without a strong proposal in that sense it is difficult to win this battle secondly the scenario are they going to go back at it well i think it depends on different elements i i think that it's more the airportuary city it had a low cost because what they were thinking of was really um having well the satellite the satellite might be needed in the future that's what the experts say but actually the the cost of extending the landing strip was was ridiculous i mean in economic in economic cost it was around 200 million euros it wasn't a lot but right now extending an extension of the airport would be limitless it would grow up to a hundred million passengers and it was actually very important for us in trying to make the city grow as an airport and a harbour will it come back i don't know it depends it depends on the one hand of the evolution of the air traffic and i had its forecasts the recovery of air traffic that was like the pre-pandemic situation and in elbrad we would be around 70 million passengers and in 2027 this is what i remember i don't have the figures before me this is what i remember but i it depends because this traffic this air traffic is linked in barcelon that this is very important is linked to elements such as fairs and the big companies are they going to keep on traveling as they did previously or are only going to the top directives come to the fairs will there be a change in habits because there are reports that you have that show that there is a change two percent i think of of users of plane users concentrate a very high number of of transfers plane transfers and those are top executives many of them are going to stop going for meetings we all have seen that many meetings that we used to do pre-pandemic where we needed to take the the plane or the train we would go to to madrid or to barcelona that were done with a high speed train now they have become become video conferences so what's going to be the impact of all of this and secondly where there'll be a change in touristic behaviors discovering that which is closer by are we going to travel less or when we travel are we going to travel for a longer time having other alternatives or are we going to travel less that's the first element to know if this topic has been closed or not we need first to know what happens what happens with regards to a transportation link to fairs for instance and big conferences and that's a very important percentage because that is what guarantees that air traffic high air traffic outside of the summer summer time and then also changing our touristic behaviors and the second element which i believe determines the situation is the need to to give value environmental value to protected spaces because there is this perception that in the product what we have is a port and a harbor an airport and a harbor sorry but now that has changed a bit thanks to the debate with regards to the airport extension but people are still not aware of the importance the ecological importance of this area so will the catalan authorities be able to highlight the value of what they have because up till now they have not been able to do it i mean the city councils and the city council of el prat have been very proactive it then the merit is not mine is the merit of those who were there before me said j for instance who was one of the city um one of the counselors of the city council in el prat they really highlighted the environmental value of el prat that is why we had a miracle here because any other city council would maybe have wiped everything out will we be capable of highlighting the value of what we have if we do i don't think they will open this file again so all of this is very important with regards to the airport extension we need to have a clear warning because these warnings that the commission the european commission has sent to the kingdom of spain for the degradation of protected spaces what are the authorities going to do i know is also to compensate where they haven't done it because they have had an irregular behavior in protected spaces and environmental compensations that they have not fulfilled because they were built over premises that have not been respected that is the other determining element so i would say is this a closed file well it depends it depends on the evolution of the behaviors touristic behaviors we have to build an alternative as i said secondly depending on whether we highlight the value of protected spaces in the area and depending on how we deal with that warning sent by the commission which i believe is is what requires mobilization but there needs to be conviction by the kingdom of spain that the proposal was going to be closed by the commission that is why in the end they they consider that the battle was lost because we could have found a situation where the kingdom of spain said i'll approve this plan and i will invest in the extension of the airport and in a year time or two years time the commission might have said no no no you can't because you have a warning because you did not fulfill the compensations from 20 years ago so that was really important it was a very powerful lever when they decided to stop fighting for the airport extension but it depends really raul from from these factors and also it depends on the the skills of the catalan authorities and knowing how to highlight the value of all of these green infrastructures that we have thank you thank you so much we have another question written by christoph that has to do with railway services for instance the difficulty to purchase a ticket from spain to germany so i'll remind you that next tuesday we will have a session on bicycles and then on the 15th we will have one on railways and we will have a telemedicine our mp a european mp who's in the tourism commission who might be able to give us more information and shed some light on this susanne i think that the questions have been answered would you like to ask one last question to our speakers or i'm going to ask one last question so that we can close this session in a different way so this topic has been the this topic has been very interesting it was a plane and the next days we will be talking about bicycles and about trains youtube what is the mean of transportation that you use most on your day to day or in your the time that you spend working i mean what is the mean of transportation that that you use the most okay i'll answer maybe because alegrie comes before her i think well i could answer your question i think that some people know what i'm going to answer i use the plane because i move around europe and if every time i have i don't have a car and every time i have to move around if i were to take a plane i wouldn't be home ever i don't spend much time at home but i would never be home but i don't think that's a question i think that and ron was saying it and i really like the way he said it it's about are we talking about each and every one of us or are we talking about trends and i had the honor and the pleasure for a few years to work for el prata as a council as a counselor and they would say they're taking their kids to this or that school well obviously there needs to be consistency between what you do and what you say but you're there because of the decisions the political decisions that you that you make because citizens have decided to vote for you and trust in you not so much in you but rather that you will have a certain specific political program and a proposal of actions of work or of whatever it is and i think it's what john was saying it's not about what each and every one of us does or rather planting seeds proposing directing managing legislating in the case of parliament in the case not in the case of city councils and territorial governments because they don't have that capacity they cannot legislate but i think that in general we have to try and and show what the reflection is and what and and to set the condition so that people can can reflect on certain things what they need to do for instance if i'm here today if i'm at el prata of iobregat if i have to go to a corner of my city uh where i was born 58 years ago i'm going to either walk or take the bike or take the car what i'm going what am i going to do that's what i have to do if i'm going to purchase groceries will it be artichokes from el prato from argentina obviously i love argentina but what i'm going to do so and then it needs to be made easy for instance if i want to to purchase glass what glass water bottles so that i don't use plastic but there are no glass bottles then i can't do it why have they why have they taken that out of the market well because there were no laws such as we have in other countries in spain we don't have those laws that would set the conditions for supermarkets to be forced to offer that product so that is the option so i think that's where we need to work we at the foundations and that the movement the ecological movement the egosocialist movement we have to work on raising awareness so that then the political forces can put that into practice slower or faster depending on the political relationships and the votes and the data but we need to set the trends because there will always be a minority that doesn't want to get vaccinated for instance okay okay let's not talk about vaccines now okay thank you i didn't know sergi that you're the one who takes more planes i know that joanne is going to answer differently i know and it's it's what you said i mean it depends on how where you are but you said that you're playing well i i've always used the bike in my life and i am actually asking for a bike lane in my city so that i can go to on bike but it doesn't exist that bike lane does not exist we don't have that connection when i worked in madrid my transportation mean was a train in order to go to madrid from barcelona but before there was a train years before when i was an mp during the first legislator i would take the plane because i couldn't go to madrid in the other way and right now it's public transportation or my electric bike with a battery that i can extract and charge with renewable energy that we use here at home so it's a combination really but i'm going to finish with a susanne what sergi was saying we have to have alternatives when the alternative for sergi is a night train that could connect brussels and barcelona for instance with not without a big investment and that would allow for a consumer of planes start consuming night trains if in my case now it's actually very simple it's a simple thing as that it's as simple as that if we had a bike lane in monroth that enters the harbour it's only 200 meters 300 meters not not more than that just a connection bike lane i could move from from poleno which is on the coast of barcelona and i i've i've done it through my whole life i've always used my bike and actually i would i would i would shed some kilos that i have that i now have because i'm not taking my bike as often as i did previously so i think that obviously there is an individual component it's our commitment obviously but at the same time as sergi was saying there is an increase um there is an increasing need for new policies infrastructures new fuels i mean a little bike lane is an infrastructure that connects metropolitan areas but also the improvement of railways that would allow for night trains because the night train is going to be a reality in the center of europe but the thing is that those of us who are in the periphery of europe how can we guarantee night trains that would allow us to take the train in brussels and wake up in barcelona the next day i mean we don't need a great investment but we do need a public policy by european um european politics so that that becomes a reality well thank you so much for your answers i knew that we were going to talk about plane and bike but that's exactly what i wanted to say because the answer is not easy is it it's not saying well this is the way to move around and this is what we all need to do because also with the night train which i also hope we will have in 2024 that will take us all the way to barcelona it doesn't reduce all the planes that we currently have in barcelona and the green european foundation has the european focus now the european focus our perspective means that we need to have a change and connection and we need to talk amongst us amongst us europeans so that we become stronger greeners more sustainable and also more intercultural and more open to debate such as the one that we hosted here today and i hope that with these with these days that we are going to start um hosting these seminars we're going to start hosting we will now inform you about other things that move us all because mobility is something basic something basic nowadays due to work but also due to um our new needs in our private life so thank you all so much for being here thank you for your collaboration thank you for the collaboration between the green european foundation transefion verde and nos horizons thank you so much the two of you our speakers um sergi alegria and joana herrera and i hope to see you next week so that we make talk about bicycles thank you bye bye thank you bye thank you all very much thank you