 And I don't know if you guys know about this, but there is now a free live transcript feature in Zoom. So I'm going to turn that sucker on too, which gives us a rudimentary transcript. It's pretty good. I think they're moving, they're connecting it to otter.ai. But I was surprised to find this as a free offer. It used to be available only in the business account. Yeah. Yeah, no, that's great. Cool, where to start? Where should we start? There's a feast on the table in front of us. Do you have a leaning, Mary? Well, let me share with you a little bit of where my thinking has evolved to. And then I would really like to hear about what work you're doing and how we might apply things pragmatically. So the thing that is of very high importance to me is that I believe that patterns have a top-down structure with a bottom-up execution. Okay. I haven't really talked to anybody about this. So excuse me while I make up words and metaphors. There has to be some amount of structure. The problem with structures are that they tend to look more like hierarchies than networks and they imply a worth pyramid, right? The higher you are, the pyramid, the more worth you have and the more responsibility you have and the more money you should get and it automatically creates extrinsic motivators and then those extrinsic motivators take over everybody's behavior. When you go full self-organizing like a five-person startup, you have the opposite of that. And practices emerge like don't be evil. And we meet at eight in the coffee room and whatever the things are. And so the trick is to move power and authority from the hierarchy into the nodes. And the nodes have a very interesting... They can be physical, they can be human beings but nodes to me show up in all kinds of processes. And what we tend to do as humans is we go hierarchical and we set a goal. Once we've set a goal, we may argue about the best way to get there and then we cut off all other possibilities, period. It's done. Whereas I like to think about emergence as if you have certain practices like with kids in school in particular that you support their motivation and there are specific practices for that that you support their metacognition and there are specific practices for that. And they learn to do those practices, you do those practices with them, the workplace does those practices. As a side effect, all the things that you tried to achieve through goals happen in an environment that is created for serendipity. I think it is possible to identify a lot of the practices that support serendipity and oddly enough, most of them come out of religious or philosophical traditions even though they're never used that way. So one that I particularly like is grace, right? Right? If you learn to have grace for the people you're talking with, then you remove so much friction and misunderstanding. Trickiest part is to have grace for yourself but if you have grace for yourself then you remove the need to climb ladders and win arguments and so on, right? So for me, giving grace is a fundamental practice and I can't, of all the things that you can put it on top of it, that one's just like always necessary. And if I think, I believe that the country is gonna fall apart in the next five or 10 years and I'm sowing seeds, I'm learning Portuguese, I've got a European passport, I'm looking at what places are going to be most livable within the United States as climate changes. I'm talking to friends who have skills in various things. Now, none of those are a plan. None of those have a goal but I'm sowing all these seeds that will hopefully be there to harvest at a time when it's right. So that notion of emergent serendipity along with a organizing structure is to me the key. And then those organizing structures may very well have goals but they need to be very well defined and described and if they do not serve humanity, these approaches aren't going to work. So that's my thing. Wonderful, so many different exciting rich pieces there. One of the things that really strikes me and your description of sort of the steps that you're taking is that piece of, yeah, it's fostering emergence. It's building capacity. It makes me think of a slime mold where it's getting the stuff ready to go but it doesn't necessarily know where it needs to go yet but then the pieces are there so that when you say you need to, it will say like, great, here's the network and the community and the skills and the resources that I have been just engaging with and here's the shapes they need to take right now. And it feels like one of the things I really am becoming increasingly sort of an unmanagement evangelist in feeling that the more we build regular practice of just experiencing collaboration with each other in this approach, the more we build up our capacity for resilience, the more we build up this kind of a network and the more we move that critical piece that you were mentioning of, rather than focusing on here is the work and at all costs do the work, focusing on this is the way to be in a way that naturally the work just gets done because it's so much more flexible and can evolve to whatever the circumstance happens to be whether or not the predefined work might work to be doing or not. Exactly, and the purpose of structure is to remove friction and ensure communication and those kinds of things. Yeah, and yeah, I love what you're mentioning there Jerry about the kind of that slime mold piece as well that absolutely there'll be that environmental trigger and all of a sudden it's in, now they're gathering together and forming their fruiting body and such. The, or sporing body, the, so one of the things that we're doing at FOMASO in terms of this also is we're trying to take an approach that is taking the human centeredness of it as the seed piece, the core of it all kind of the keystone and then the rest of it is just kind of hits the practices within that. So rather than saying, again, our goal is to be working on fostering projects that relate to the SDGs, but that rather than pushing hard on that as a mandate what we're doing is having lots of conversations with people like you on Saturdays we have a community gathering where we almost never get into talking about like nitty gritty about projects or what people are working on it's just a chance for people to talk to get to know each other to express whatever's alive for them and to get a feel for who each other are. And the more we've been doing that the more potential projects just naturally unfold. So we'll have an hour's worth of conversation about whatever we happen to wanna talk about that day. And at the end it'll be like, oh, and here's two like well-defined crystals for projects that and here's the people we should talk to about whether or not those are projects that are viable and should maybe happen or not. We'll start really serendipitous. And that's what it's all about. It's all serendipity and grace and just sort of seeing where the connections are seeing where sparks happen and then fostering them. And really just aiming for that flexibility piece with it. And similarly, then the work that we end up doing with different organizations ends up being just wildly different for different organizations because it isn't that we're saying here's the widget that we're offering or here's the specific course that we offer. It's just talking and figuring out and if there's a place where it seems like there's something that our community has something that they can offer then we say like, oh, hey, why don't I put you in touch with so-and-so and let's just see if something happens or we'll say it sounds like you could maybe use, you know, we have a notion template for organizations that are at the early stages of getting going. If you'd like, we can set that up for you and do a couple of sessions. We've got to use through it with that be of interest. And just, yeah, just kind of playing together to figure out what those kind of pieces are. So yeah, that's interesting. And I love, I really am excited about the idea of trying to one of my goals is again to have some folks like both of you who can function as, I mean, an informal, I mean, it's more of a play group, but that, you know, informal words, it's an advisory council who's able to do that bridging between the sort of nascent theory that we're building around what unmanagement is and then finding the right opportunities to test that out and to put that into practice in different places and sort of put it in places and learn from that and just document what goes well and what doesn't go well. And the last piece I'll ramble because it sort of is alive for me in the moment that we're doing, because I think that not that everyone, not that every unmanaged organization has to take this approach, but that piece of extrinsic motivation that you mentioned, one of the breaks to put on that is just making it so that everything that we're doing is MIT open source so that anybody can take it, do whatever they want with it. If they profit from that, that's great. If they release whatever they're doing, that's great, but simply to make an ever-growing resource that's there and so many of the different struggles that come from the extrinsic motivations of how are we best going to make the profit out of this, then just dissolve and you can just focus on doing the stuff. They do for the organization, but the individuals will still be measuring the size of their offices. For us, that's easy, because everyone's office is in the house. You know, that's what I mean. But I totally know what you mean, yeah. Yeah, it makes me think of when I remember hearing the Dalai Lama, when my friend and I were in India back in 99 and him talking about, you know, even the most learned Rinpoche's, I love it. That was great, but like even most learned Rinpoche's still argue about who gets to the highest chair. Yeah. Yeah, April and I stayed at an Airbnb in Oakland many years ago, which was also a Zen monastery and run by a really cool woman who I still follow on Twitter and stuff, but her obsession with coffee and the off limits part of the kitchen, which related to coffee was the least Zen thing I had seen in a really long time. She was like completely on it with a timer and a thermometer and the whole, the whole like really, the whole really into my coffee and don't touch my coffee kind of thing. It was a meditation. That's why it has. Yeah, exactly. It was her practice. So just kind of throwing this on the table. One of my amateur beliefs about change is that we need to be able to tell a lot of stories. That other people can hear and then every now and then they'll be like, Oh, I'd like to try that. Or that sounds interesting. Either tell me more or how do I do that? At which point we could call in from the loose network of people who knows stuff and knows people and either connect to the person who did it or marshal up some resources. Those the resources at hand ideally would be in pattern languages and then in open source bodies of code because some of it can be instrumented or can be stood up or somebody who's already done it before why replicate their effort, why not build on their effort and then contribute back to their pile of open source whatever it was that you modified or improved, right? And if we keep doing that, we build these sort of platforms and then basically lather rinse repeat. So tell stories, figure out where attention is going follow that interest, not by telling people what to do but by helping them get done the thing they think they want to do and then all while creating or improving the comments. I love that. A couple of seeds that I'll throw out just from the network side. We have a couple of people who we've been talking a bunch with who have been sparking a lot of joy. One is Brenda Kiesel whose project is The Village and they're working on, it's storytelling. It's connecting to personal story and so they'll have a loose theme and then it's just building fostering compassion, empathy and connection between people by listening to each other's stories. And so she's got a real gift for, she actually ended up working with Arthur's Initiative Ukraine now just so that the people who were actively engaged in there started out as kind of, I think it's support circle relief for people to just talk about what was coming up for them in that work because it's intense and has turned into a whole other kind of piece with that. Yeah, no, story aggregation is a really interesting thing but also there's a really a neat group where we're in conversation with called Story Box who are working on developing the tools to allow right relation in story sharing when it's important story. So they're especially focused on Indigenous culture where it's important to capture story but it's also important to know, I've been given permission to tell this story to you personally. And so that that can percolate out and so that both the rights and the permissions and the collection of those stories is something that can be managed through smart contracts and distributive ledger and all that kind of thing. But well, yeah, and absolutely that piece of how important location is and place and story, yeah. The other thing that again just kind of pops to mind and then I'll step back is that it's interesting because I'm used to with pattern language, it typically being bringing together some people who are sort of steeped subject matter experts in a given area to talk about and discern. And what's so interesting with unmanagement is that it's the recognition right off the bat that pattern language is an important modality for trying to capture what this is about. But that there aren't, I mean, there are experts in the different aspects of it but it feels like it's something we're just on the cusp of something that we're figuring out. Like what is it and what does it look like? And that's a really interesting different story. Go ahead and read. I think the problem we have here is the Toyota problem. Okay. So the Americans wanted to understand why Toyota was doing so well and they went over there and saw their quality approach. They saw everything and they came back with no knowledge. Because it was alien to them? Because it was... Because they couldn't understand it, they couldn't see it. They built the only framework that was available to them with the hierarchical one. So the notion that independent agents all doing what they believe is best will somehow create something other than chaos is not something they had the capacity to think about. And so I think most of the work that I've done here, so on the industry side, I had about 10 years to practice. On the education side, I had about 10 years to hit my head against a wall. And on the parenting side, well, that experiment is still ongoing after two decades. And most of the things that I think matter here, all the lower layer stuff before you get into processes and stuff, all the lower layer stuff are more about thriving. How do you thrive as an individual? And part of the answer, you thrive as an individual in community with other people, in relationships with other people. Oh, and psychopaths can't do relationships. That's why they can't thrive, right? So I'm thinking about as elemental practices like motivation and metacognition. So actually motivation is at a higher level, because out of motivation, you've got those three things underneath that the autonomy, mastery, and purpose, right? So autonomy, mastery, and purpose are like atoms. To me, we kind of know what those are. They're not things that really need to be explained. However, learning how to interact with others in supporting their autonomy and your own is Toyota. There's not a mindset for that. And until you have the mindset, everything looks like just another chart. And so I've been working on writing a couple of articles about, well, actually about kids, about educating kids and raising kids and using examples. And they have titles like stop telling kids they can change the world, right? Because that's cruel. Most kids are not going to change the world and setting that expectation is completely inappropriate, letting them know that there are obstacles and for whatever they want, no matter what they want, there are obstacles and in most cases, those obstacles can be overcome with hard work. That's what you wanna say, but it's not what people say. It's not what people teach kids. And so that's what kids come away with. And kids are taught from birth that their wishes don't matter, that they don't have bodily autonomy, that the universe just strikes out at them and tells them they're bad kind of randomly, right? That happens to, and then it happens, they're prepared for it when it happens to school. And then it happens again when you go to work because by now you know how the hierarchy works and you're either a rebel or a, or a obsequious, like those are your only options. It's very hard to walk through that environment with dignity. And so that dignity is another piece that I have really been focusing on. Okay, now I'm remembering. What I'm gonna get back to is that I think there are some things that are atomic enough. So we can put atoms underneath agents motivation. We can put atoms under metacognition and call it learning. That's a pattern for learning. Whereas there should also be one for approaching happiness. Right, so, and things under there include just like be kind, help if you can. And not because you're extrinsically motivated to, right? And not because it makes you a better person, but because you don't like to be in pain either. I read a book about 20 years ago that had a story about a, about Buddhist monks who were tortured into that. And after they were rescued, one of them said, I was in very grave danger. And they said, yeah, we know. And he said, no, no, no, I was in very grave danger of feeling hate. Because I believe that pain is pain. Our bodies and minds are created to be resilient to pain. We're not resilient to suffering. And in order to not suffer, you can't let, you have to clean up all the original sin of how our bodies evolved and get rid of jealousy and hatred and all those things that cause you pain. Yeah, it makes me think a lot about one of the core practices for me is the first set of Patanjali sutras and the version of it that I'm familiar with has a whole little explanation when it's talking about some kinds of thoughts are painful and others not painful. I'm not aware of them, that's wonderful. Talking about pain in exactly that meaning. So that when it's saying pain, it doesn't mean as in it makes you say, ouch, but it leads you further astray into the stuff that are- Right, yes, that. And the things that might be physically painful but that lead you to the place of, I mean, in that terminology non-attachment isn't painful, yeah. Right. Yeah. So I think that there should be a core that's just about thriving. And then once you've got thriving, then you say, okay, so that's true for an individual, right? And now what's the next unit up? It's the team or the family or the classroom. And what are the patterns that are now created because of the additional complexity of more people? Yeah. So that's kind of how I'm thinking about the structure. I love that. One of the things in terms of the kind of tears of, oh, sorry, Jerry, you had a thing, I'd like to hear it. Are you gonna lose what you're about to say? I will, thanks. Okay. So two things I wanted to put in conversation. One is something I put in the chat a little bit earlier, which is it feels like the core of the pattern language you're thinking about for unmanagement is the core of the pattern language for parenting. Yes. The core of the pattern language for being a human and community. There's like this core. And I think we should call it out as such and maybe name that subset as such. Like there's just a high functioning core here that is modular, shareable, should be pointed to by other pattern languages, et cetera, et cetera. We offer it up like almost parsable from the larger context of unmanagement, which is like business and management and whatever, because we don't wanna turn people off from this core, which is about how to be a good human. I think that the core should be a beautiful set of subroutines that then other things can call. Diamond sutra of sorts. And then the second thought I had was, oh my gosh, this whole gonna be, how do I, how am I zen in the world? How do I drop all these needs and wants sounds unattainable? So I wrote, you know, there's this core, the shareable and then there's this notion that, oh my God, if I need to be a perfect zen being in order to do any of this, I'm done. I'm dead. I'm never gonna try it. It's though there were a goal. Well, exactly, but there's a piece of how do we invite people in to do this in a way that's completely friendly, familiar, comfortable and easy for them? Like do one simple step can change your life is a nice book, one small step, sorry. So one simple thing that you can always choose is assume positive intent. Bingo, and I go there all the time and that is a core preceptive design from trust and nobody necessarily has thought through what that even means. And I think it means all the things we're talking about. Yes. So totally agree. Yeah. No, that's wonderful. And part of it too is to go aside that would be lovely to have the explanation of how brains work, how they're trained and why we're all so fucked up and that we all have coping mechanisms and stop judging coping mechanisms if you don't have anything better to offer. Yeah, and I really like that piece that is like an underpinning assumption that needs to be a part of the invitation that everyone's on a path and a trajectory around all of this stuff and that we're all fumbling towards whatever it is and learn from each other's fumbles when we kind of transparently and humbly share them rather than getting into, again, it's avoiding wherever those are unnecessary hierarchies of here as the guru of this thing, let me show you how to do it. And it's saying, here's my experience is what are yours and what can we each learn from those and where are there things within that? Yeah. Yes. One of the things that strikes me is also this piece of sort of the tears of complexity that when you start just from thriving and that then as you're building community outwards that it then becomes about, well, okay, then how do we help that community thrive? And as that community is expanding, you keep doing that. And so you start from a fairly simple set of processes and such around that and that then it's as you get forward that you're identifying, well, here's the specific issues you know, from the corona wide perspective, for example, well, COVID is having a sufficient impact on a lot of people's ability to thrive. So how do we as a community want to respond to that specific piece and that you can then get into, you know, whatever arbitrary levels of complexity needs to happen in order to say, well, how do we most effectively engage with that in a way that's meaningful? But the other piece that fits with that that I like how Archer has been describing more recently kind of from the experience there sort of the push and pull and horizontal and vertical teams piece where it really is have a big, you know, if it's something that has a mission, has a mission, has a mission well-defined but have it be- English, please. Sorry. In English. Exactly, yes. Have it be something that anybody can look at and say like, yes, that's the thing that that's why I'm here. And then to have the flexibility then within that for everybody to be brainstorming and talking about and sharing experience to say, well, we could do this and we could do that in a very yes and approach and that you then have, you know, inevitably you have a core team of people who are like, I'm gonna put time and passion and energy into this more, but that you don't have to draw a line around that group. That's just something that happens. But to then have it so that as a group helps the whole community engage around well, which of these things are maybe priorities where we want to focus a little bit, have it so that you build structure out of that, but not in a way that pairs away everything else. So you, the seething, roiling, ideation space that everybody is in, where they're coming up with different ideas and forming their own subteams and it being much less about how well does this fit with our current blueprint than how much, like is there, where's their neat stuff going on? Where's their interesting energy and how do we support that interesting energy doing more of whatever it is that it's doing? So figuring out how to fit the pieces together, but not how to shoehorn them together in such a way that they lose that spark that makes them what they are. Exactly, yes. A couple thoughts here. One of the things I find happens a lot in open global mind is lots of people show up with on their own mission and they're just trying to recruit people to their mission and there isn't a lot of blending of missions or finding of overlaps, which is a piece of what I'm really interested in doing more of. So what you get is like, I want to do Viking cosplay. No, no, no. We have to do emergency response for Ukraine. No, no, no. This is just an improv play. Let's have a great time. And it's like, it's really hard to sort of, it's very hard to spend time with all the communities because you run out of time. That doesn't work. It's exhausting. And many of the participants are so mission driven that they're not really flexible to bend towards some other mission or even to sort of adopt some of the practices or whatever else. So you have to make choices. And it's one thing to be really inclusive and to treat everyone with dignity and grace. It's another to figure out, how do we make our path through this so that everybody can pick up from the interactions, the thing they need to help their project move forward, including volunteers who are now interested, et cetera, et cetera, without destroying the center in some way because the center is fragile in some sense and too much exposure to too many new ideas every single time with no progress on any of them is just destructive to the group, I think over time in some sense. Unless there's a place where all you're doing is stirring the pot, which is good, which is sort of how I think of the Thursday morning OGM calls. It's like, I think of it as I dip the ladle in the stream and then when I see something interesting, I stir the pot. That's how I facilitate the Thursday calls. I'm dipping the ladle and stirring the pot. And then separately back to the idea of missions and all that, one thing I'm trying to do for myself, for the project I'm on and for others in OGM and related entities is let's paint a mosaic picture of our mission or future. Some image of our future. And I like mosaic for a couple of reasons. One, it's a low resolution image. Mosaics are like pixel art or mind blocks, what's it called? Minecraft, it's like large blocky, low resolution kind of image and mosaics decompose into tiles. And so I'm actually trying to figure out and I had a call yesterday morning about this very topic. How do we take an ambitious project and deconstruct it into tiles which are fundable software projects? And how do we open a conversation across projects so that we can recognize and then promote to the head of the queue those tiles that serve multiple project at the same time that are both a priority because they fix something important but they also fix something in your project and something in your project. That's an important tile, let's get funding on that. And then how do we author the tiles so that they're composable? Open source is awesome, but open source with bad architecture doesn't really help. Open source in some way that's composable so that it's usable in a variety of different contexts and tools is really wonderful. So I'm trying to figure out how to stand that up and it's really slow going. But I feel like if we can stand that process up have people writing pattern languages so that we can distill the wisdom and share that into the commons and then create us and I'm losing some of the different threads. But if we get some of these different things stood up then different people with projects can show up, participate, pick up what they need, leave what they need, improve the whole process and lather rinse, repeat from there. And then in the middle of this is sort of what I'm thinking about as an attitude or an intentional approach which you might think of as unmanagement, right? And unmanagement is a way of fulfilling all of these things which are more operational the things I just described are like, hey, how would I get this done? How would I, I'm sort of trying to riff on how would I use unmanagement to actually write some code to stand up and finish a project that is then useful to the whole community? Like that. And to me, like the painting of these mosaics is really important and I'm not really sure exactly what that is yet. I can show you some diagrams I've drawn by hand that I haven't turned into online diagrams because I haven't sat down and said, okay, I've got to do that task. But I'm experimenting with a thing called Excalidraw which is a plugin for Obsidian which has the nice feature that when you change a name in Excalidraw it changes the page name in Obsidian on a markdown file and I think vice versa which means you can have drawings that interact nicely with texts which are in a pattern language or a body of documents. That gets tactically really interesting because you can then start playing with the different tools we're talking about with each other. No, that's exciting. I'm gonna have to dive into Obsidian and Excalidraw I haven't played with, but they found very neat. I've bookmarked that now. Another piece that strikes me is that again from that sort of either funding or resources side that when you have this mixture of sort of, if we're thinking in this case it's like the project so it's being the, I mean, I guess you can do it either way but you've got your different projects and then you've got your different kind of software pieces or composable bits that can help with it. And when you have those all interlinked in the community it makes it much easier to be able to say, okay, well this given piece of software here's the four different initiatives that benefit from that. So how do we get those four initiatives to help support that thing happening and how do we roll together as easily as possible grant proposals that are then able to say, here's the thing that needs to happen, here's the organizations that can write their memorandum of understanding and their endorsements of saying like, yes, this is something that'll move our work forward so that it becomes as easy as possible to support moving all the different pieces getting all of themselves that need Oxygen the Oxygen they need. And in the middle of this, I'm gonna complicate things the way I did a moment ago, there's a bunch of projects in here that aren't well grounded, aren't well structured, are being run by somebody who has awesome ideals and intentions and no particularly good concept for what to do or how to do it. And they're in the mix as well and you don't wanna call them out. You want to help them get somewhere but you also don't want resources to go into what they're doing because you're kind of sure and I hate to say this, that's gonna be money not spent well. And how do you bake that into the community so that that happens gently and well? And so that the participants who aren't very good at some skill learn the skill and then ladder up to the point where they're creating the things that actually you go, oh, good. Now I see clearly that that's something we should support. And what really excites me but what you said there is I mean, because of course visualization is what comes to mind for me and doing it in a way that it takes some time because it has to be longitudinal but where you then have trajectories and it isn't about saying, here's someone who is just bad at doing things and then said you're able to say, here's where you seem to be on your specific trajectory and these are the pitfalls that when we look at things are clearly the pitfalls for this. Here's some people who might be able to help mentor with some of that. Here's some projects that you should check out that have been particularly successful in the areas that you're kind of in. And it also provides that feedback so that for me as a project leader I can look at it and say, okay, here's some places I need to improve and that me as a community member I can look at that and say, this is a project that's being, the core group of this is really a bunch of movers and shakers who have done some really cool things in the past. So definitely I would like to contribute some resources to making this thing happen. And I think this process is hard. I think this is the right process but I think it's just really hard and the efforts I've made over the last couple of years through OGM to do this for different sub-projects I haven't made a lot of progress. It hasn't really worked. And I apologize. I'm gonna have to, I'm physically needed elsewhere at the top of the hour which I'd rather not because I love this conversation. And I think we should talk more than once every very long time. I agree, absolutely agree. Yeah, so Jerry it was lovely to see you. Well, it's not top of the hour yet and you were about to say something. Oh, I thought you needed to, oh, okay. No, no, no, top of the hour, top of the hour. I'm just giving us notice that nine minutes from now I need to boogie or actually eight minutes because I have to walk to a different room. And what was the last topic that I was about to comment on? That's a good question. So how do you, partly I was putting in some of the bad news about. Oh, I know. The thing is, I think the solution for all of that is you just help people understand what are the needs of a project. Not no single person has to have all the skills. And what I found worked really great with self-organizing teams is that people would do what they were good at. But if you, and also that early in a project, wild-eyed, crazy people are your best resource and the ones I wanna hang with that I want them to stimulate my brain and then close to delivery, it's like, I don't wanna see those people. I'm like, you, no, no, no more ideas. Out of the room, out of the room, go. Go find something else. And I want the person who will pick through everything so nitpicky that it makes my eyes glaze over who I then love during that part of the project. And so I think it's more about having teams where collectively you have what you need rather than having this notion of leaders who are supposed to do X, Y, and Z. Yeah, I really like that. I have a small riff on temporary sort of, what do I call it, local and temporary hierarchy in the sense of I don't believe in the non-hierarchical organization, but I think that at some point it's like, Mary, that's a great idea. Why don't you take this through that idea and she's the leader for the next period until we're done with that process and then fades back into the crowd and then we'd lather and repeat. Yeah. So what do we do? If YouTube are okay with it, I would love to share this recording with my other two directors at Tomazzo. So my MO is to post a lot of videos on YouTube every week all the time. I'm happy to post this openly to YouTube on my account or if you'd rather do it on yours either way. But I'm... I don't think she's mean about anybody. I don't think so. Okay, we're good. Yeah, good. So I'll just do that and I'll send you guys the link to the YouTube. I'll send you guys an open YouTube link to this call. Perfect. And then, again, I sent her, there's a link on the document that you made, Mary, to the unmanagement kit that we're trying to put together, which is just meant to be a basic document that says, here's some of the hallmarks for a situation where unmanagement might be appropriate. Here's some of the guiding principles that are important. Right now, you both have comment or access, but I'd be delighted to just give you editor access on that to dump your thoughts on there as well. Yeah, that would be great. And then similarly, I'm keen to talk about the pattern language side. I'm keen to talk at any point, I'm happy to talk about what are some of the things that we're kind of doing, either at Tomaso or that either of you are involved with, where they might serve as good bridge points between theory and practice where we can kind of document and learn together. It would be amazing to see somebody actually intentionally adopt some of these practices. Yeah, well, and we really are trying to, there's a couple of organizations that we're in conversation with now that we're talking to you, that that's part of why we need the kit, is to be able to say, here's the thing that we think might be useful so that you can just find your mission, open the floodgates and kind of let the constructive chaos happen. I've met two architects and we got to talking about pattern languages and they both said, my MO is when I hit a new client, I hand them a copy of the book, A Pattern Language. And I say, if you like this, we can probably work together. I love it. It's good, it's really good. It's like this book has the spirit of how I like to work. And in fact, if you absorb some of the patterns, it will raise our conversation. Yeah. Is it, Jerry, you're in Oregon, is that right? That is correct. Did you say Portland? Portland. Okay. If you're ever interested, I'd be more than happy to also introduce, and you're, I forget, are you in Seattle? I'm two hours south of Portland. Okay, I'll double check and see where she is. But if you're ever interested, I'd be happy to introduce you all to Tree Bresson, who was the, she was the originator and spearhead for the GroupWorks pattern language happening. Great person, tremendous facilitator, has lots of lots of need experience and is just generally a great person. So yeah, if you'd like, I'll send an email to the three of you to see what happens. Lovely. I would love that. I think she and I have crossed paths a very long time ago through Nancy White. Oh, okay, yeah. But I don't know that we've, we certainly haven't communicated in a long time and I'd love to be back in touch. And when somebody says, hey, I'd like to write a pattern language, where's the unwrap to that freeway? Is there a, is there a good one? One of the other things that I put in, and I don't know if it's a great one, but it's what the one that we have is one of the documents. And I think there's a few other larger ones that we made at GroupWorks, but that is bookmarked or is commented on, on the notes that Marie made, that is simply something that's like, what is a pattern? And it talks a little bit about like, what are some of the hallmarks we used for trying to figure out like, what is a pattern and how to define those? And a little bit around our process of trying to come up with a pattern language. But it's a great question. I mean, I know the, you know, the pattern language of process people and Helena and all those people are engaged. I don't know of a good, a good how to guide. Okay. I'd love there to be one of some sorts. Me too. Because I'm extremely interested in generating more pattern languages. And then as a small side note, early in Open Goal of Mind, we created a little experiment and one of us took semantic media wiki and basically stood up a semantic media wiki in the hopes of doing a pattern language generation for us as a group. And we started to trial it. And the first thing we hit was, it's very hard to change a pattern name because it doesn't propagate through the wiki. And you need to change pattern names really often and we stopped using it immediately. Like the first bump we hit was a deal breaker and all the nice work that he had put in to sort of tune up a semantic media wiki for us, we set aside and we never went back to a different platform. So at this point, Obsidian markdown files on the GitHub repo is kind of the way we're going. And that's sort of the state of the art we've got. And it's not that easy or that friendly, but it's doable. Okay, no, interesting. Yeah, we've not necessarily something suitable for that. It's funny semantic media. Oh, actually it's a lot of them 58. I won't go into story mode. I could also leave you guys in the room. I can just pass the con and you can keep talking. I don't need to stop. I should also get ready for the next meeting coming up. But I would love to set up much more, regular opportunities to talk and to bring some people in to see what sparks around the different pieces that we're talking about. That would be lovely. I love that. And you both have a standing invitation, which I'll email to you. But anytime you want to drop in every two weeks, Saturday is nine o'clock Pacific time is when we have the Tomaso community meetings, which sometimes is just like. Pacific time is when I face time with my dad with Parkinson's. Oh, wow. I could maybe stop in at 10 o'clock is when I might be able to do 10. Yeah, 10 o'clock is when I go to Aikido, so. Oh, okay. Well, I can always double check to see, because we have a community meeting and we've just switched to doing community and directors meeting to see if there's ever a time where we switch those, then that would enable. So, well, perfect. But thank you for sending us a note. I'll add it so that I can know that it's there. Wonderful. And I'll also send an intro to our other directors because they're fun people as well. Thank you both so much. This has been an inspiration and an energizer. Me too. Same. Really appreciate it. Thank you for getting us kicked off again. My pleasure. Bye. Bye for now.