 For a long time, church art tended to depict the translation of the Book of Mormon as Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery sitting around a table, sometimes with the gold plates out on the table. But that's not really the best match for what we know about the translation process. What do the historical sources from those involved around the time tell us about the translation process? Well, first of all, Joseph Smith explained that he translated the Book of Mormon through the medium of the Urim and Thummim by the gift and power of God. But he didn't explain further than that. So what about the seer stone, for instance? What was its involvement in the translation process? So Emma Smith, Joseph Smith's wife and Martin Harris, his friend and David Whitmer, his friend who were around during the time of the translation of the Book of Mormon, said that he used a seer stone to translate parts of the Book of Mormon as well as the Urim and Thummim. And Martin Harris explained that Joseph Smith started using the seer stone instead of the Urim and Thummim for convenience. Wait, so what might that mean for convenience? Well, that's a really good question. We're not really sure what that means. But if you think of the Urim and Thummim, the descriptions that are given of the Urim and Thummim, it's described as two clear stones in a rim like glasses. And the Book of Mormon says that these stones are what constitute seers. Having and using these stones are what constitute seers. So the Urim and Thummim actually is this special pair of seer stones. And we have these descriptions of the Urim and Thummim connected to the breastplate and that they're large and that they don't fit on Joseph Smith's face. And we even have accounts that he takes the lenses out of the rim and puts them in a hat, which is the way he uses seer stone. So if he uses his own seer stone, rather than the Urim and Thummim, he can put the Urim and Thummim and the breastplate away somewhere safe and just use his seer stone. And that's more convenient. Okay, that makes sense. But it also sounds a little bit strange to then think of it as Joseph Smith looking at a stone in a hat. Yeah, that's an image that we're unfamiliar with, but actually it's not that strange. He's just trying to block out light. That's the point. So it's like on a really sunny day, if you get a text message and you pull out your cell phone and you can't see it because of the sun and you make shade, you block out the light so you can see what it says. It's the same kind of idea. So in the stone, he sees the translation in light and he puts his face in the hat so he can block out light and see what's on the seer stone. Can you make the Book of Mormon translation process visual for me for a moment? If I were an artist and to come to you and say, hey, I want to do a depiction of the translation that's more accurate, how should I make that look? Well, we would actually need two different images. We would need one depiction where Joseph Smith is wearing the breastplate that was connected to the Urim and Thummim and he's looking through the Urim and Thummim and he can be looking at the plates. And then we also need the other image where Joseph Smith is with a hat looking into the hat at a seer stone. The Book of Mormon wasn't just translated in one way. It was translated in different ways at different times. So the seer stone was integral to the translation of the Book of Mormon, but for some people it's still a little bit uncomfortable to think about that seer stone. Why do you think that is? That's a good question. I'm not sure exactly why that is. I think a big part of it is just that when Joseph Smith wrote about this in 1838, he talked about the Urim and Thummim spectacles that he found with the golden plates and he didn't write about the seer stone. And that history became canonized as part of the Pearl Grape Price and that is what Latter-day Saints are familiar with. And we have much less familiarity with other sources that talk about a seer stone. I think that's part of it. It may be that we want things that are miraculous to be ancient, like the Urim and Thummim in the Bible. It may be that a seer stone is too much like an ordinary rock. It's something mundane. But the idea of Joseph Smith using a seer stone to translate, this is an idea that we can get used to. We believe in modern miracles. We believe in a God that can work through small and simple things and God can speak to Joseph Smith however he wants to.