 Awesome. Excited to start the day with a conversation about the startup ecosystem. Yesterday we talked quite a bit about the benefits of thinking as an ecosystem, and I'm quite lucky to have two amazing people here, Link and Dave, very accomplished, very involved in the New Zealand and Wellington startup ecosystems, and excited to get your thoughts and your wisdom from it. And why don't I start by asking some of you guys might know them, and some of you might not, just to tell us about your involvement so far with the startup ecosystem here in New Zealand. Tina Koto, everyone. It's good to see you here. I guess if you don't mind me taking a walk down memory lane, I've kind of got a foot in both camps because I was born in Los Angeles, and I moved out to New Zealand as soon as I was done with university at Berkeley in 1981. And yeah, so I've been living out here for many years, and my first encounter with the startup ecosystem really is when my wife and I, Kate Frickberg, she's just sitting over there, started a business doing a web development company in the early 1990s, and we sort of grew that and eventually sold that company in 2002, and used the proceeds for both philanthropic and investment purposes in various startups. So I've been active mainly as an advisor and investor in startups since 2005, 2006. And yeah, I've really been enjoying watching the whole startup arena grow. The word ecosystem, I think, is slightly deprecated in startup circles, and so I know there's been some context around use of the word ecosystem in the last few days, but an ecosystem is generally something that's fairly mature. It's got balance. It's got organisms that contribute in certain ways, and organisms that contribute in other ways, and everything sort of functions well. I think the startup world is a lot more chaotic than that, though. And so to describe it as an ecosystem is actually giving it more credit for development than it really has. And I think that chaos is something that really drives the energy in the startup world. So I use the word ecosystem all the time, so don't get me wrong, I always sort of question whether or not it really is an ecosystem, or whether it's a chaos system, or not a system at all, just a collection of weird behavior. So anyway, for all of that, I'm a director in a number of startups. Just one of the key things in New Zealand is developing relationships outside of New Zealand, because to try to do a startup in New Zealand that's focused at four million New Zealanders is generally tears before bedtime. We really have to be globally focused in everything we do here, and be globally relevant, otherwise we become irrelevant to the rest of the world, and trying to do something for four million people is just not economic. So I spend a lot of time trying to encourage startups to think globally, to connect with global markets, to connect with global investors, and to generally do stuff that's going to be of amazing value to people everywhere in the world. So I guess that's kind of the long and the short of what I try to do. Hi everyone, so my name's Link, and I'm actually Australian, and it's, I know, one of the only people to come the other way it feels. It actually began in Los Angeles, so before I arrived in New Zealand, one of my first startups, when I was 23, was acquired by Pop.com, which was a DreamWorks company, and that's how I ended up in Hollywood. It was actually one of the biggest failures of Hollywood history, but it actually was a really great experience and got me into America, and it was basically a precursor to YouTube was what they were trying to do, and we were basically providing them the community to do that. And so about four or five years ago, I moved to New Zealand to start a family. I now have a three and a half year old daughter called Phoenix, and the reason, and basically when I arrived here, I really got the startup bug again, and that process led me to Inspiral, and then it also led me to realize that there were some real challenges in building startups in New Zealand, and around the lines of what Dave was saying is that the ecosystem in New Zealand is just really underdeveloped, and it's still in that pioneer phase that was talked about by Gary, and there is a lot of chaos, but in order for it to function well, it seems that there are a number of things missing, and the process over the last year or two has been finding out what those things are and trying to work in the next couple of years of how to fix them. So one of the missing things really that my business partner, Stefan Korn, who is now the Chief Executive of CreativeHQ, the incubator, and I looked at several years ago was a lack of an accelerator, and so a couple of years ago some planning went into starting a startup accelerator here in Wellington, and that came to fruition last year with what we call the Lightning Lab, which was a 12-week program based on the Techstars model, which takes companies from idea through to investment in this 12-week period. The first month of the three-month program is focused on achieving product market fit. The second month is focused on scaling, and the third month is focused on preparing investor presentations and that sort of thing, and so we ran through our first iteration of that in 2013. We're looking at doing the second iteration in 2014. The 2013 cohort, there were nine companies, four of them achieved investment on demo day, over 2.1 million I think was invested into those four companies, and so all four of those companies are still going, and yeah, it's a very exciting sort of model to be working on, and we're looking forward to even better results now that we think we know what we're doing more or less in the second year. We're kind of making it up as we went along to a large degree in the first year, which everyone does, so the second year should be much better. I've got a question. Dave, you talked about how you're encouraging startups to think globally, and I'm curious to hear both your thoughts on how New Zealand can make a global impact. What are some of the opportunities that you see coming up in the next few years for us to incubate different types of solutions that are scalable and make a positive impact in the world? Well, that's an interesting question because I don't think there's, in terms of the startups that we see coming out of New Zealand, sure there are some that are based around primary industries, which are really important, so for example, one of the startups I'm involved with, Expander, is doing anti-counterfeit by attaching custom QR codes to product packaging, which then gets exported to China and Asia. So, I mean, using the New Zealand context, you know, milk products are our biggest export, and so that's one example of how you can apply a technology solution to something that New Zealand is really good at and then export that and then take that same technology solution and apply it in other verticals and other geographies all over the world. So, we can do that with some things that we're good at, but I think, you know, many of the other startups that we see coming out of New Zealand could be coming out of anywhere, and I think New Zealand produces really great computer science graduates. So, you know, we have a strength there. People in New Zealand tend to be very self-reliant. Now, there's this whole number eight wire, sort of ethos. People know what number eight wire is for the Americans here. It's a fencing wire. It's used to make the fences that you see between sheet paddocks, and there's this New Zealand myth that, you know, a very skilled farmer can make anything out of number eight wire. So, for example, you know, there are these stories about, you know, entire cars made out of number eight wire and so on. So, you know, there's this, you know, people are very self-reliant. I actually think that number eight wire mentality is holding New Zealand back because New Zealanders aren't particularly good at scaling things. We're really good at, you know, doing everything ourselves and trying to do everything ourselves, and when we don't know how to do something, we get one of our mates to do it, who we think has some experience in that area, and they may not. Whereas people from larger countries and larger economies tend to say, okay, well, what needs to happen? How do we farm this out to people who actually know that we're doing? How do we scale this? How do we take, you know, this great idea that I started and actually grow beyond that in a much more large-scale way? So I think these are some of the things that we need to work on in New Zealand and perhaps some of the areas in which people, like the people who gathered here today, can help us. So I've just come back from a trip where I was invited to Israel to look at the other ecosystems around the world and to look at how they relate and what we could learn for New Zealand. And one of the things that came out of that was a quote from Brad Fowle, which was, sort of, be the best boulder that you can be. So in this case it's, you know, be the best New Zealand that you can be. And what does that look like for New Zealand? And to answer your question, Yosef, basically it seems to be that really things such as primary industries are an example of that. But there are some others that, for example, Matt talked about yesterday. Around video and the film industry here, it's basically looking at things that have already developed over a number of generations such as the Wellington film industry with Lord of the Rings and the Hobbit and that sort of thing in Avatar. And what that has done has brought a whole lot of expertise into this country that doesn't exist in other locations. So an example of that is John Lemon who arrived here to work for Weta and then left and started Lumio. And it's those sorts of skills that come in through Weta create an opportunity for all sorts of startups to come around that industry even if they don't seem to be related. And another area that's really unique to New Zealand is because of its size means that government is really accessible and that means that you can actually solve a lot of problems on a small scale here in New Zealand that could then scale out to other countries. And so that's already been seen in various startups with Inspiral and in other startups, but it seems to be a really great opportunity to do here in New Zealand. Well, I think that the counter argument to that is that the government in New Zealand is about 40, 45% of GDP and so it tends to be dominant and so it is easy to become over reliant on government as a revenue source in New Zealand and I think that's something that we need to diversify as well. You know, one other really interesting thing about New Zealand is we have, I believe, the second highest rate of immigration in the world. So I think 25% of New Zealanders were actually born in some other country and the only other country with a higher rate of immigration is Australia. And so particularly in Wellington, you know, we have an incredibly diverse population. We complain about the brain drain, but in fact I think it's actually a brain gain because we're getting smart people from all over the rest of the world who want to come here because of the amazing environment we have because of the appropriate scale that we have who want to live here and contribute and use their international connections to help improve the world generally. I mean, one of the things that I found really attractive about Wellington when I moved here in 1982 was the scale and that is an incredibly attractive thing about New Zealand and a real strength that we have because you can walk from one end of Wellington to the other in 15 minutes and in that time you'll probably bump into about 20 people that you know just walking along the street because everybody walks. People don't drive, either they walk or they take the bus and if you don't meet them in the street, you'll meet them on the bus and everybody takes the bus. So, you know, it's a very close-knit community where we have two degrees of separation and if you don't know someone, you'll know someone who knows that person that you want to talk to. And that scale, that appropriate scale where people know each other and you don't want to hurt the people near you because it'll come back to you really quickly. That's actually a strength and I think there's an opportunity there to develop more of a Wellington ink and a New Zealand ink sort of approach to the world where people that we're nominally competing with turn out to be our best allies on the global stage. Question to Link, you're working on a project called Free Range and as I understand it you're trying to create a much more developed technology ecosystem here in New Zealand. Can you talk to us a bit about what that project is and what are some of the key gaps that you're trying to fill through that? So, Free Range came out of Inspiral and it came out of a challenge which was the lack of capital here in New Zealand and it seems to be a similar theme across other isolated ecosystems and so the goal was to create a start-up to cultivate other start-ups and so Free Range started with looking for a capital by inviting international VCs such as Horizons Ventures which is owned by Lee Ka Shing as part of his foundation to New Zealand and basically try and fill that sort of capital gap here locally and over that time it became clear that it wasn't just capital that was missing but it was actually a number of those elements in that ecosystem that were also a lot more pressing than just capital and those come down to a number of issues. Number one is that there is a lack of experience in New Zealand and it's a similar situation to Australia and other ecosystems is that over time it takes a while, it takes a number of generations to build up particular experience in an industry that is really, really specific such as technology and so what ends up happening is that the particular type of brain drain that we're suffering is the ones where companies get acquired or they go to work for another company overseas and that experience is then not shared back into the system and so that the younger generation doesn't really understand what it takes to scale, how much effort it takes and specifically they lack the type of networks that older more experienced entrepreneurs have in a more advanced ecosystem and so I guess the opportunity is around bringing, inviting more serial entrepreneurs, more experienced entrepreneurs into New Zealand but also to develop the younger generation and to really work out ways of encouraging younger entrepreneurs and giving them really great experiences to learn their skills and to develop as well as the other missing area is engineers and so working out how to fill those gaps and is basically one of the main priorities for the next year and that comes from, for example, basically filling it through overseas options as well as local ones so it's working with local universities but also working with international organisations. The really great thing that's happened over the last couple of months has been that Immigration New Zealand has come forward and really decided to sort of get involved and become really quite proactive. They're putting a whole team together for next year and they've really identified this as an area that they'd like to focus on as well which gives me really a real hope for New Zealand and filling some of those gaps. Sir Paul Callahan, his great vision for New Zealand was a place where talent wants to live and I think that's going to be a key part to building up our capacity to actually deliver on some of these great things that we want to do. Dave, you talked about how the start-up ecosystem is more of a chaos than a calm, thriving ecosystem. In that chaos, what are some of the biggest gaps that you identify that are keeping it as chaos that are not helping it develop as we like it to develop? Well, I think access to capital is a key one. There are a lot of start-ups around who would try to do something on $100,000 in New Zealand that they would get $10 million to be doing in California. So you end up with people who very scrappily try to execute on an underfunded plan. So I guess access to capital is one of the key things. Link pointed out access to engineers and very specialized knowledge, I think, that's also a really key element. We're great generalists, but generally don't have the opportunity to specialize in a market of 4 million people, but we're getting there in things like the film industry and things like primary industries. We are able to develop expertise in those areas. But I think that, again, the scale, even though it's a nice scale and a very comfortable scale to live in and work in without... People don't understand what... Local start-ups have a hard time understanding global competition and often they'll build something up and build something up and build something up and then discover that when they finally make that jump overseas that they're at least a dozen competitors out on the international stage. So I think that sort of contributes to some of the chaos as well. And our distance, the fact that it is expensive and time-consuming to hop onto NZ8 whenever you want to do anything in California, actually, it is an impediment. And as wonderful as Skype and Google Hangout are, there's nothing like being there face-to-face with people. And so it's easy to become isolated and then when you get a key piece of information, it causes that chaotic behavior. Something that we're really pushing for next year is to really reduce that tyranny of distance and that can be done, as shown in Australia, through export development grants, specifically aimed at small and early-stage start-ups through basically giving some type of tax credit for travel, which reduces that distance down. You guys talk about talent and the talent Dave mentioned about how we're developing really good engineers, but yet we don't have enough of them and we're not meeting the demand. What are some of the attractiveness of New Zealand and the ecosystem here for not just engineers, but for talented people to come and move out here? Oh, well, there are lots. I mean, it's the same thing for anybody in many cases. The fact that you can live in such a livable city, that you can send your kids to school, that they can walk around and actually walk and bike to school and that you can feel safe wherever you are, that you can live in a community where you know all of your neighbors' names and what they do and all their kids' names. It's living a dream, really, that you just couldn't have in most places in North America where you tell your kids, don't talk to strangers, you buy guns and all the rest of it. We don't have any of that here. Something that's just really so obvious, no one mentions it, is how safe it is here. When growing up in Australia, there were about 14 options to be killed in my front yard. My grandmother almost died just bringing in the washing because she had a white-tailed spider underneath in the sheet and it bit her on the arm. She was in the hospital for months. It just gives you an example that doesn't really even come up here. You don't realize just how safe you are compared to some other places like Australia. Other things which are really interesting. When I arrived in 1982, most of the people my age had not grown up watching television because television didn't arrive in New Zealand until early 1960s. Most people didn't have them until the late 1960s. Most of the people my age did not grow up watching television. Consequently they read books and they talked to each other. I felt in some ways more intelligent on average. There are no statistics to back this up. I felt that they were more intelligent on average than the average people that you deal with in countries where people grew up watching television. I don't know whether or not that's all evened out now or what. I do get the sense that even if you go talk to a petrol station attendant or somebody behind the desk at a dairy or anybody you talk to, generally in New Zealand they have a pretty good understanding of world politics, of current events, of important issues and more than anything Kiwis care. They actually care about what's going on. Not only in New Zealand but in the rest of the world. That really struck me and I think that's a really important aspect that people do care here in a way that they don't in other places. Something about the local market here as well is that yes, start-ups here have to be global from day one but the local market here is used around the world by companies like Facebook to do their first trials. One of the reasons for that is because we are a country of early adopters and we're willing to try things and that's really great when you're starting an early-stage start-up to actually have people willing to give it a go. So the counter argument to that and something that gets me really worked up like is that New Zealand start-ups that use New Zealand as their first market are learning all of the wrong things because they're designing their start-ups for a market of four million people. They take them offshore and all of a sudden they discover that in the rest of the world they need distribution. What's that distribution? In New Zealand, you want to sell something to somebody, pick up the phone, you rang them up and you say, hey, would you like to buy this? And they say yes or no and you generally do a deal with them. It doesn't work like that in the rest of the world where you have distribution to worry about and so New Zealand start-ups that are using New Zealand as a test market are, as I say, often learning really the wrong things and not focusing on the key thing that's going to kill most of them, which is distribution. Which is really highlighting the fact of how important it is to bring in that higher-experience talent to give those sorts of pieces of advice. Bring it in but also to bring it out. So I think there needs to be this bidirectional flow of talent and the more integrated we want to be with the world economy the more we have to be prepared to travel in both directions. So something that they've looked at Israel and one of the things that took them up to the next level was a scheme with America where Israeli start-ups actually spent time in America and it really helped them understand the American market and they say that that was one of the key things that took them up. I want to open it up to questions. If anybody's got questions we'll take about three out of five questions. It's kind of natural for young people to want to have a look at the other side of the world, especially when you are in a foreign market. So my question comes back to the fact that it would be great to be able to have people experience what it's like overseas but then to attract them back because everything you've mentioned suggests to me that it's a great place to raise your children to come back once they've learnt and had that experience and have fun in the bigger overseas metropolitan markets and that's really why we lose our young bright people and we're at a case in point with our son and even though he'd like to come back, he probably won't. Zeroes now started up and might attract them back so perhaps there's a comment there that you'd like to make about that as an example but that's the point that everyone wants to see what the grass is like on the other side of that number eight fence. So that's one of the strengths that New Zealand has is that our young people do go overseas and travel the world widely and every New Zealander when they graduate from university goes off on their OE, their overseas experience and it's just an expected rite of passage that it's something you're going to do in your early 20s. Unfortunately there is going to be some attrition and we're going to lose some of these people permanently to places overseas. I think we'll make that up in people we get back and I'm sorry that they're probably not going to make up for your son. My own son is currently over in Los Angeles. I don't know whether or not he'll ever be back but people do recycle and they do come back and he may not be able to come back now when he's 30 or even when he's 40 maybe when he's 50 he'll decide to come back and recycle that knowledge. So I don't think we can't really hold on to them but I think if we let them go there are over a million New Zealanders overseas so that's a fifth of the population 20% of New Zealand is in the New Zealand diaspora and these people are actually really critical to our integration with the world economy and these are our 1 million ambassadors that we have all over the world so I think that's really important as well and we shouldn't lose sight of that. There was some recent research done and it was found that the average successful start-up founder was 35 and so the fact that young kids are going overseas is actually great and it's just about creating an environment here that this is where they choose to come back to and that the so-called ecosystem is here that it actually supports them coming back and building their start-up here later on. In the business that I'm involved with we actually send a whole lot of New Zealanders and Australians overseas to get work experience thousands of them a year but we actually interview them all and ask them what they'd like to do when they come back to New Zealand and the majority of them didn't actually want to come back to New Zealand and work in large corporate businesses but actually wanted to come back to New Zealand and get involved in small businesses and helping some of their skills and indeed even injecting their capital into those businesses if they wanted to and that was 45% of the Kiwis that lived overseas were of that attitude. I think the main issue for them is actually educating them about what they can do when they get back because the ecosystem is chaotic they don't really have any visibility of what they can do when they come back so they just get sucked into that trap going and working for a big corporate despite the fact that that might not be what they want to do. So... Sure, my question was just surrounding this 1 million Kiwis living abroad and I've definitely seen a lot of stats from the Kia network that speaks of the relative success of that diaspora often leadership in international organizations you see a lot of prominent Kiwis in the US in leadership positions in big companies I'm curious to hear your thoughts on what are some of the things that New Zealand companies or friends of New Zealand can do to take advantage of that community this dispersed but well connected and sort of values align group of people how can New Zealand really tap into that more or do you feel like that's already happening and just maybe share your thoughts on that? I think that one of the things that we've looked into recently is that those overseas New Zealanders represent potentially some of the country's best ambassadors and I think there's an opportunity to really unlock that by allowing them to actually identify people that they'd like to invite to come and live in New Zealand for example so basically formalizing that process and I think there's a real opportunity there Yep, so the Kia network is fairly well defined I think they've always struggled to actualize what they're trying to achieve mainly because people have busy lives and they get off doing whatever it is that they're doing overseas and they come back to New Zealand for the Christmas holidays and hang out with their family and then go back overseas so one initiative that we started came out of an idea last year was a thing that we're calling Worldwide Wellington Week and this is the week leading up to Wellington Anniversary Day where we've got a Facebook page we're going to try to get all the Wellingtonians that we know all over the world to have barbecues in their garages and do other things that are very Wellingtonian to wear black and yellow and celebrate whatever it is their connection to Wellington is so if we can keep these people connected in some way I think that will be really helpful as well Kia ora, I'm Viv Materbourne a couple of things, of course living in New Zealand for women and children isn't safe and I just want to make that point that we kill more of our women and children than any other developed country in the world so let's not romanticize the work that there is to be done in our country and our culture in that way the second thing I want to say is when we're talking about startups I want to really make the distinction between just any old business starting up a business starting up to be another profit taking extractionist company that's about profit making for shareholders and startups that are about changing and disrupting the current power dynamics in the world and finding new ways of redistributing wealth in the broadest possible sense so I guess I'm interested when you're talking about startup to really address this challenge of how do we do more than just grow more rip-off businesses that accumulate wealth in individuals and ignore the common good so I think that's the challenge and that's what I'm really interested to hear how do we grow an ecosystem of that kind of startup so to be fair Viv I think there are very few startup entrepreneurs in New Zealand or anywhere else who go into their startup thinking that the reason that they're going to do this startup is to make a shitload of money and oppress people so I just wanted to get that out of the way I think most people who are doing startups are really passionate about one particular idea that they want to see disrupt the entire way that things are done in that particular area and extract value from that by making it easier for people to do whatever it is that they're already doing in that area so I think it's really good that there are lots of people doing this in all sorts of unexpected ways and they pick really odd things to be passionate about and develop and make a lot more efficient and more interesting and more fun and easier to do and I think that the value that's unleashed by that actually contributes to increasing increasing levels of well-being everywhere so I think it's really important that that kind of stuff keeps on continuing as it is I do think that the question that you ask is a valid one though and that how do we focus people more on addressing issues like inequality in society or poverty or violence or other social issues how do we encourage people to focus on that as well as all of the other things I think the only answer to that is to make sure that we get people passionate about that to the degree that they want to risk everything because that's what you do when you do a startup you basically risk everything in order to achieve that goal so how do we do that I think the interesting thing about New Zealand is that we've all chosen a lot of us have chosen to be here and that the reasons that the types of reasons that we've chosen to be here are exactly that are quite similar in the very reasons that we want to start those sorts of businesses and I think the emergence of Inspiral as an example of that it has really is a really good example for the hope that I have in New Zealand's role in those sorts of startups and I think that you're sort of bringing up let's not sort of paint a rosy picture I think that the other thing that we haven't discussed is that the feedback from international VCs on the New Zealand ecosystem is that there is another issue here and that issue is around not the fact basically the feedback was that startups here have great design the design thinking is amazing for this country and the startups within but what's missing is basically a way of creating something that has as type of protectability and the fact that IP is not protected well means that these startups can't get the sort of capital that they might attract if they did that well and there's this local that seems to be a local trend in the past of let's just get it let's just get something going quickly rather than thinking about how to protect that intellectual property hang on Link who are we designing these startups for are we designing them specifically for investors or are we designing them to change the world and to create value so if you're trying to design something for an investor then definitely you look at IP protectability as being a key a key aspect of something that you want to work at on the other hand there are plenty of other business models I'm a really passionate open source sort of person don't get me wrong I think it's completely possible to have really good business models around stuff that's essentially free and that comes down to how well you can execute so there are lots of different business models but I think in terms of the IP protectability you really have to ask the question who is it that's benefiting from that protectability I guess it's just a balance so if you're too far on the open side that it becomes harder and harder to actually get the scale and to attract the capital to actually grow it so there's a balance and ultimately it's just the feedback is that it's just too far on that side to attract if you're going to try and attract VC funding to do something otherwise you're going to have to look for other sources which we end up doing and start up to like Lumio finding really interesting ways of doing that but it's just harder it is harder one last question Josh over there I'm just curious about next three years if you could wave a magic wand around here what would you like to see change what do you want to see that's not here right now personally I'd like to imagine that we're further down the track of that more complete ecosystem and that there are more I mean Yosef and I talked about this earlier in the year and it was sort of imagining that more people were moving here then more people were moving back we were attracting more experienced serial entrepreneurs that decided to move to New Zealand or even part time to start things here and that there was more of an awareness of entrepreneurship as in the local environment so make no mistake we're as a country and as a start up world we're still bootstrapping and we have to do that one success at a time and there are no shortcuts it's not like I can wave a magic wand I mean as nice as it would be and immediately everything is there the way we want it to be so we have to keep on building our resilience we need to celebrate failure better than we do and give people the the permission and the encouragement to try something really hard to the degree where they might fail because I think Kiwi's probably have less sort of resilience to failure than say people in Silicon Valley for example so keep on encouraging that so I want to see more people trying harder and failing and having those failures be celebrated but at the same time I think recycling the talent that we have well is really really important and that is the key to success in bootstrapping is build more success stories have those people come back and do it again and come back and do it again and encourage others to do it again by recycling their own capital their own expertise so it's a bit hackneyed but if you look at Rod Drury and the way he's built up his career he's the chairman of Zero and the founder of Zero the accounting software firm but if you look at the way he did it he started with a web development firm he built that into another technology company developed that into another technology sold that came back and started Zero so it's that recycling recycling thing which is really good and keep on striving at solving problems that are really really hard that people are passionate about I remember when Rod Drury first started Zero I thought he was trying to solve a problem that was just too hard to solve and yet he's made a huge success of it and took huge amounts of risk and applied huge amounts of his own money and other people's money to make it happen and did it and so good on him so we need more of that recycling effort happening in terms of talent and capital within New Zealand Thank you guys so much for sharing it's really inspiring Dave Link I'm curious, especially for anyone watching this on video, how can we learn more about the projects you guys are involved in and websites and URLs Right, well for me the key ones, I've got my own blog dave.moskovits.co.nz Lightning Lab is lightninglab.co.nz I guess those are the key ones for me freerangefarm.co.nz That's good, so thanks everyone really appreciate the opportunity to be here Thank you both for sharing the many exciting opportunities but also challenge that we face here Just one last comment I want to make is relating to the scale of New Zealand here and the opportunities to make a big impact is something that we have noticed when we moved here and when I moved here about 11 months ago and what's exciting for us is just an opportunity to contribute and help some of the chaos thrive better I don't think we can stop it from being a chaos but we can help it thrive and utilize some of the skills resources and relationships that were built in the Silicon Valley ecosystem to meet some of the needs and investments some of the needs and talent because a lot of the people we've been talking to in meeting are looking for something a bit more meaningful to do and ways to utilize their skills and knowledge and I want to give them an opportunity for them to come here and contribute in the ways they can so we're setting up an entity called KiwiConnect where it's in very early stages and we'll be launching our website quite soon but we'll send you guys a quick note about it when that is out but thank you very much for sharing your knowledge and skills wisdom and hope to continue this conversation and contribute to the thriving of this chaos, thank you