 Again, welcome to another episode of Critical Conversations, where we talk about hot topic issues related to American Muslims and other targeted communities. Several weeks ago on our show, we talked about the Women's March of 2019 and talked about the way, the objectives and the goals of the march and very briefly touched upon some of the allegations that were roiling the National Women's March leadership, allegations of anti-Semitism. Today, we're going to have a follow-up conversation with members of our Jewish community to hear from them directly about how they feel about those allegations and what it's like to be part of intersectional movements. And so joining us today, we have, first of all, Rabbi Rikki Kazawski, who is the Rabbi for Beit Ahava, which is the reform synagogue for Greater Northampton. Next to joining us, we have Jackie Nyman, and she is the head of the local Indivisible Chapter here in Western Massachusetts. And we've also invited back to our show Rachel Meiery, who is the director and co-founder of the Pioneer Valley Women's March. Ladies, welcome to the program. Thank you. Great to be here. So, and thank you so much for coming. And you know, I will ask my first question, and it's really for all three of you, but perhaps we'll begin with you, Rabbi Kazawski. So, you know, you heard about all of the allegations about anti-Semitism that roiled the National Women's March leadership. There was a lot of coverage in the national media about that. And so how did you feel when you first learned of what those allegations were, and what were some of your thoughts, some of your concerns around that? So, so, well, first thanks for having me on the show, and you can call me Rikki. At first I was upset about allegations, and at the same time, I wasn't surprised at the conversation because I've been part of the women's movement since I was a teenager through college. So when I go back to my early 20s, the experience of being part of the women's movement as a Jewish woman has always been complicated. And there's always been, we didn't call it intersectionality back then, but there's always been a hard situation of figuring out where do Jewish women fit, and are we seen as white, are we seen as Jews, how do we perceive ourselves, are we a minority, are we part of the people of privilege in America, but then there are also Jews of color. So it's complicated, and so it was, I mean, I think for me it was very emotionally distressing time, and it still continues to be something that I'm very actively engaged in because the women's movement and the women's march in particular, for me, it was one of the most empowering experiences as a Jewish woman, and just as a woman, and as an activist. And realizing that the conversation about where I fit in and where Jewish women fit in is distressing and complicated. So were you expecting this, you know, when we had the first women's march three years ago? I mean, were you expecting that these fishes would emerge within this particular women's movement? I anticipated that it would be a part of our conversation because it always has been when I pause and think about it. I also, you know, when I first hear of allegations and when I continue to hear so, I want to be inquisitive first and pause and really listen and try not to be biased and to be very aware that often the people who are being criticized, such as the leaders of the women's movement, are also women of color, a Muslim woman, people who I respect and admire deeply and have felt were role models and just incredible activists that really resonated with me as a feminist and as a woman, but also as a Jewish woman. So when I first hear of these, I also, I really want to look into where is the criticism coming towards them also as women. So I look into it deeply in that way. Okay, great. Thank you. And Jackie, as a Jewish woman, I mean, how, what was your initial response? So my initial response was actually more personal than as a leader of a group because I was so excited about the women's march this year because I was planning to go to D.C. for the first time. And my first thought really was, oh, now there's a kink in it. And am I going to be able to do this? And I wanted so badly to be able to repeat that same great feeling I had had in the other two marches where I had one in Northampton and one in Boston. So my first thought was this disappointment and angst into something that I felt should be such a positive and affirming and powerful experience. So that was my first thought. And then my second thought was, boy, that sounds really bad. These allegations sound really bad. And now I'm going to have to wrestle with something that unlike Ricky, I didn't see coming up in this women's march, which I wasn't considering the intersectionality of it really. I was marching as we all were together. So that took me by surprise. And so when you did your, I'm sure you did some more research about what those allegations were. So what were your thoughts? I mean, what conclusion did you reach about that? That there was anti-Semitism in the way things were manifesting themselves? Or what conclusion did you reach around that? So I did a lot of research. I struggled as a great rabbi I know once said to me, it's the most Jewish thing in the world you can do is to struggle with something and figure something out. And so I guess I took that lifelong Judaism and worked it this way. I did a lot of research. And I found there were two sort of anti-Semitic issues that seemed to come up. One was around Tamika Mallory and attending a Farrakhan event and her statements of support of Farrakhan. And the other was older, which was around one of the initial planners who had felt somehow pushed out of the original planning because of some anti-Semitic things that had been said. That was even more surprising to me because I said, oh, this has been since the very beginning, since the inception this has happened. And I was completely unaware. And I was able to find more information about that aspect than the Tamika Mallory Farrakhan issue, which is what I was originally concerned about and looked into. And Rachel, you were in a very unique position because here you were organizing a system march here in Northampton. You heard about all of the concerns that our Jewish sisters were grappling with. And so what did you do and how did you sort of, were you able to reach out to them to sort of get a sense of what their apprehensions were and how were you able to sort of incorporate that into the planning of the march? Right. I did end up reaching out. I think I had the first, I will say, that kind of denial. I'm too busy to resistance to the complexity of it, frankly. But really my initial feeling was really similar. It was, I was disappointed. I was disappointed that frankly the leadership was putting the movement in peril. I felt kind of really myopic about that. And then kind of frustration that these locally led independent iterations of the women's march everywhere were being kind of potentially compromised. So it was kind of a first selfish thought. And then also real concern for the Jewish community because the history of activism in the Jewish community is so large and so represented and so offers so much support to the women's movement. Those are my first thoughts. But then, yeah, the pause that Rabbi Ricky referred to came in of, oh, yeah, there's been some amount of misrepresentation from the beginning, or at least mistrust of women of color and leadership. That's a thing. So I did the research. And I realized it really wasn't for me to say I really need to reach out. So I did it on one to one. We didn't do something like this, but I reached out to people one by one and I got a few really well thought out concerns, you know, e-mails and was able to talk to the community that way. And we decided to go ahead with the march. Sure. And were there Jewish women as part of the planning committee for this local system march? Yes. Yep. And I talked to them about that and there was a wide variety of views. Yes. I think in the end, you know, most of these smaller marches are locally led and are grassroots. So establishing that was important. Sure. But not also ignoring that these things were happening nationally. Absolutely. And I mean, I also want to talk a little bit about the way the National Women's March leadership sort of responded to these allegations. And we'd love to hear your thoughts about, you know, did you feel, I mean, they came out and of course, I mean, it all started when Tamika Mallory attended the Nation of Islam's annual conference. She has longstanding ties with the Nation of Islam because of the support that they provided and also because of some of the anti-poverty work that they've done together. And Linda Sarsor was also sort of, you know, part of this whole issue in controversy. And, you know, and of course Farah Khan has, is known, widely known for making very reprehensible remarks about the Jewish community, very anti-Semitic and just is unapologetically so. And homophobic too. Absolutely homophobic. There was a whole other issue of absolute homophobia and just, you know, hurting the LGBTQ community to the extent that he did. And so, and so Tamika Mallory and Linda Sarsor both condemned Farah Khan's words, but did not condemn Farah Khan the man. How important was it for you, Rabbi Riki, to hear condemnation of the man? And did you understand when they said that we will not condemn him, but we can condemn his words? Great question. This was hard. I also lost sleep for a number of weeks around this and, you know, read everything I could. It was really the dominant topic on a number of my women's clergy groups that I'm part of, Jewish women's clergy groups, I should say, that I'm part of really struggling with this. I did not feel like the condemnation or the distancing was enough. I wanted to understand more because I realized I don't really understand what perhaps the nation of Islam really meant, means perhaps to part of the black community or to Tamika Mallory herself. There were a number of articles in defense of her that kept referring to how he had helped her family. And, you know, that part I couldn't relate to as Jewish women with other Jewish leaders. We sort of have that in our world, too. But when something was so disgraceful and so despicable as condemnation of gay people and some of the really virulent anti-Semitic tropes and messages, it just didn't feel like enough, so I really struggled with that. Okay, great. And what about you, Jackie? Yeah, I feel actually very similarly to Riki about that. I did not think that particular response was strong enough. However, I did struggle, as you did, with learning about what the nation of Islam, good things that had been done, and I was really trying to put myself in someone else's shoes in that regard. And I do believe that our allies, someone who's on your side, can make missteps. We all do. And I try to think of times when I've done things and said things even as a community leader in this way, where I'm sure I've aligned myself with people unknowingly that had negative impacts on other groups. That said, I do believe that we, you know, these are not like a la carte menu. We don't get to pick and choose little bits of things that happen. And without the, we don't have the luxury of ignoring the other parts. And I feel that way about the current administration and a lot of other things. So I think if you embrace it, you're a little bit embracing it, although I can understand from a personal standpoint how somebody could feel differently if their interactions with that group is overwhelming or a person are overwhelmingly positive. Of course. And also, I mean, both Tamika Mallory and Linda Sassour had sort of come up with, as a response to all of, you know, the backlash that they had faced that, you know, we believe in King Yen non-violence and the approach of that is to never condemn the man. And so we've never actually condemned Trump, but his policies. And so we're condemning, you know, what Farhan said, but not his words and stuff. So that was, but you still feel like there should have been much more of a forceful response. Or maybe a clearer explanation. I feel like it took a lot of research, of independent research on my part, speaking to a lot of people and culling a lot of sources to get the information where I felt comfortable making a decision about what I was going to do. And I don't think it should have been that hard to find that if the original misstep had already been that publicized and was in the media that much. Absolutely. And what about you, Rachel? I mean, how would you respond to their response? Right. Well, I thought I wish they'd been quicker to respond and clearer, as you say. Some of that is how the media, I didn't see the media quoting their very eloquent apologies. Yeah. But you're right. I think they could have been clearer and more forceful about that. And I sense some defensiveness there. I think what they did say, you know, what was important to me is to see an evolution and to see, you know, when mistakes are going to happen, what happens after that. And I see that they made changes and started really percolating with what had happened. And that's good. I, yeah, I had to think about the fair con. It brings up a lot of issues about condemning a person versus their beliefs. It really brought up a lot of, a lot, just in a general sense. So I can see that what she means by that, I can see, I can at least acknowledge the complexity of having people outside the black community, especially white people, demand that a black community leader denounce another black community leader. And she actually described it quite viscerally as, you know, feeling like black on black violence. That was a pretty intense thing to say. And I had to think about why that would feel that way to her. I don't really have, you know, it's not really for me to say more than that. And I think really it's really, we need to center the Jewish community's response to this. Because that's what we'll know. Of course. And I mean, as I remember when the first calls came out for them to condemn as a Muslim woman, I felt this, you know, this knee-jerk reaction, this sort of resentment about, you know, we are always required to make these on-demand apologies. Every time there's a terrorist attack anywhere, the entire Muslim community is called to apologize. And there was this, you know, and condemn as if somehow they represent us, like, you know, the terrorists. So there was that reaction. But also, it's interesting how Tamika Madri sort of talked about it. Because if you recall, when Obama, when he was running for office, when he was running for president, this whole issue, the controversy of Jeremiah Wright, his pastor came up, who had made some very, you know, not very nice remarks either. And Obama sort of dismissed it as saying, well, you know, we all have that uncle who we have disagreements with. So we don't necessarily. But I think it becomes very different, both in Obama's case and also for women's, the national women's leadership, because once you're in a position of influence and authority and, like, you're leading a movement, then I think the responsibility becomes a little bit more to condemn something that's wrong. It doesn't matter who is making those wild statements and stuff. And I think the danger of that, of the lack of response being timely enough and maybe as worded clearly enough, is that we, I don't think represent the typical person who's going to go to the march. I don't think anyone, all Jewish women who attended the march will spend hours researching whether or not they feel that this is morally the right thing to do. So they're going to see something anti-Semitic. They're going to spread it because they've been read on Jewish sites or whatever, and that would be the end. So I feel like it in itself divides the movement. Absolutely, absolutely. And so, you know, do you believe that, well, even before I get to anti-Semitism in general, but do you, both of you had serious reservations about attending this march? You really grappled with it. You did the Jewish thing by really grappling with this issue. But, but you ultimately did attend. And Rabbi Ricky, you came to the local North Hampton march and Jackie, you went to DC to march. So what led you to then finally participate in the march? So I guess I'll say I, it would have pained me to not participate. I always knew in my heart, of course, like I will be part of this. And I definitely was advocating amongst my peers who many of whom are rabbis, many women rabbis, also male rabbis, to show up at the march fully, you know, fully embodied in your protest because that's a very Jewish perspective, I think, even to come to a protest where you're protesting something about the protest. So for me, before the allegations about the anti-Semitism in the women's march, it's really hard for me to come to a march that takes place on Shabbat, which is our day of rest at a time that's during our religious services. So if it was at one or two o'clock in the afternoon, that would be a different picture. Good to know. Marching with the feet, I'm praying with my feet rather, which is a famous statement. Also praying with your feet, you know, that would enable religious Jews, not just secular Jews to stay someplace if they don't drive, they can walk there. So to me, that was already what I struggled with with every political march, but especially the women's march because it falls so much of my core identity, it has the potential to be present there. So I really did struggle and I didn't find any comfort in disassociating with the national women's march leadership to me. And I know a number of my peers around the country felt like, well, they can go to the West Angeles march because it's not run by the national women's march. Like, I actually like the leaders and I'm in awe of the leaders of the national women's march and I didn't as much as being so conflicted by these allegations and by many things in the way the leadership model was working. But I don't see value in separating because the picture for the rest of the world and for all of us is actually one of unity and is, you know, it's the women's march. Whoever is organizing the march, it's women going out there and expressing something against misogyny. Connection to our sisters, whoever they are. And so that was a piece. For me personally though, you know, so great to be on here. I reached out to you. I reached out to Melaka and also to representative to Joe Comerford who I sent, you know, those who I saw were on the list of speakers and who I also know personally and said, are you aware of the level of angst and trauma that the Jewish community is going through and what are you going to say and help me? And it was a real cry in the dark. And both responses immediately, you know, with your busy day and with Joe's busy day, you know, we're just, and immediately I hear you, I'm here, you know, we're in this and I'm going to mention anti-Semitism in, you know, the two or three, however many minutes, remarks you had, it was already, had already been thought about and thank you for just sharing the depth and we'll work on this together. And that felt, I felt like there was really a place for me not to come as a protester but to come as myself, so that was the first thing. And the second thing for me was as a Jewish woman and as a Jewish woman leader it also happened to be the Shabbat where we read about the Israelites, the sea parting and the Israelites leaving Egypt and going to the promise, we're just going to the desert and escaping, and escaping their persecution. And to me the symbol of it is Miriam. It was the sister of Moses who carries her tambourine and leaves the women marching and singing and dancing and protesting. We need tambourine. We need tambourine. We need tambourine. We need tambourine. We need tambourine. And when I thought of that symbol, I always saw the tambourine as a symbol of joy, that music, and I realized it was a symbol of protest. It's that she brought that tambourine and she was shaking it and crying and screaming and also joy, all together. So I brought my tambourine to the march and I was out there shaking it. And it was really exciting with so many people. You could hear a tambourine. It was kind of like a whistle. They were hundreds of people. I saved my voice. I saved my voice. I didn't have to share it. And there was a moment in the crowd where there was another woman with a tambourine. I kept hearing a tambourine and I kept looking for her. And I met this woman and I said, is this Miriam's tambourine? I have one too. And she said, no. What's Miriam's tambourine? And she said she had gone to some protest in Spain and brought back this tambourine and carried it with her now to all of her marches and protests. And we just sat there together and I felt like this is, so I'm on a big thing that we should, actually my synagogue really be decorating Miriam's tambourines in the spring from Passover, but with the intention that people can write quotes on them to carry to marches and protests and in this political work that we have to do together and bring our folks out. That is beautiful. But thank you because it was our conversation that brought me there. Of course. Thank you so much for sharing. Fully. Thank you. And Jackie, what about for you? I think if I'm being really honest, and I usually am, I think ultimately I wanted to be convinced that it was okay to go because I really wanted to go. And I was going with the other leader of our group and she and I felt differently about the controversy in the first place. She was concerned that it was being amplified as a way to divide, you know. And so she felt very strongly that we make a big statement and presence in D.C. So I think ultimately I was hoping I could find a way to make it okay for myself to go. Just like you, I reached out to smart people that I know who might have something to say about the march. And one of them said something that really resonated with me. Yeah. And she said that if we do not allow our allies to evolve, nothing can change. And that just, I was like, that's it. That's it. We are in so many ways united in this. And if I don't allow you to make missteps and then fix them, I can't expect you to allow me. And this makes us stronger together. So that was my sign. I had that on my sign and I carried that in D.C. And that's how it made it okay for me to go. Oh, that's amazing. And Rachel, thank you so much. Well, I'm just good. Well, the string that happened, I didn't kind of even see that you were talking, we were talking. It's very interesting how none of us knew that that happened. And this is the strength of women and, you know, diverse women and intersection women. This is our strength. Right. And I think we try and look for that, those unifiers. Like, you know, even despite the differences, we're keep giving each other the benefit of the doubt to try and sort of work through it rather than just shut each other out and say, well, this is not working for me. So I also want to sort of talk about, you know, the fact that in these intersectional movements, do you feel that sometimes anti-semitism is sort of excluded or is not given enough attention when we talk about various kinds of oppressions, but that is sometimes overlooked somewhat. Do you feel that happening? Do you feel that happening now in the Women's March or just other movements that you've been a part of? Oh, sure. I think we're going to come at that answer very differently anyway as not a Jewish leader. I have to say, in general, I don't because I don't think that I think about it. In general, I don't feel that I've personally been targeted or that have had a lot of anti-semitic things happen in my own personal world. So I don't think that that was the first thing that would have struck me about it. As I said, I was surprised to see it crop up here. But every time it does crop up, I always feel that straddle of, well, am I white majority or Jewish minority? And it brings that, and that's something I kind of almost want to just keep over there because it's such a huge, I don't know what to do with that. I don't know what to do with that. So the answer is yes, it probably is overlooked and I'm just not aware enough of that to happen. And maybe it's because other people like me find themselves with two identities and focusing more on one than on the other when they're in events like this. And do you feel like, just like you said about your own self, that other people who are non-Jewish might see you more as a white woman than as a Jewish woman who is targeted because of her Jewish identity? Yes, I think most people are surprised when I say that I'm Jewish. I never knew someone Jewish. I'm like, yes you do. You also know someone who's gay and you also know all these things. I just find that people don't think of me as a man. And I don't even know that I view myself as a minority either. So I probably contribute to that. Right, right. And even if they don't explicitly see you as a Jewish woman, do they feel that Jewish women are white or do they feel like Jewish women are part of a minority? Just generally, how do other people perceive you? Either whoever wants to respond to that. My impression of what's going on here and what the problem is, that we're trying to force people in boxes that... I mean the whole white supremacist culture, when I say that I mean just plansmen, I mean racial profiling and stereotyping, it all goes to serve this goal of keeping the status quo and this dominance over people and dividing. And so you want to have people in boxes. You're the other, you're white, and you're a man, you get these sorts of privileges. And so it doesn't do well with intersectionality. And I think that's where I find, I humble opinion outside the community where I think anti-Semitism gets lost because it's not fully understood because we're trying to do the boxes. And then it's not addressed. I don't think it's addressed forcefully enough because we're too busy talking about the boxes. When I know what it looks like, I know what hate looks like, ding, ding, ding. I don't need to like know, I mean there might be an answer, whether you're a minority or white or not. But what I know is when someone is being under attack. Sure, sure. Well, thank you for that. And Robert, Ricky, I'll give you the last word just because we're out of time, but I'd love to hear your thoughts about this as well. On the same question, I'm really glad you brought up white supremacy because I felt like I meant to bring that into this conversation much earlier. But you know, I think Jewish, at least Jewish-American identity has always been complex about where is it a minority or a majority? I know that I grew up in South Carolina where I was never allowed to be seen as white. So I was always a Jewish persecuted, you know, seen as Jewish or outsider. And it was, which are you? Or are you from the North or the South? I wasn't accepted as a Southerner, for sure. I mean, and if you look at us, we could be sisters. Right. You know, and we probably are sisters. I think we are sisters, for sure. And you know, and I think that's one of the questions still within the women's movement is where do Jewish women fit and that anti-semitism part of, not fitting is part of anti-semitism. Because it's putting us in these different boxes and saying your oppression is more, you know, and one of the things that I was really happy about in the women's movement just to bring back is that the leadership, there's now, I believe, three Jewish women who were brought into the national leadership. And I believe they're all women of color. So the interesting thing, it's like on the one hand, it's so exciting, there's a whole new emergence of Jewish women of color, and that was very, you know, visibly up front in the national march, and one of them used to work for the reform movement and I think it's just so phenomenal that she's part of, you know, that she's on that leadership now. And yet there also was still, you know, criticism and discussion and a lot of concern that there's not a white or Ashkenazi Jewish woman seen. So there's still this, like, what do you do about Ashkenazi Jewish women who often do not, who don't really fit either. So where is the anti-Semitism or healing or how are we gonna, but ultimately I just think we have to just completely stay engaged, which is why I will continue marching and being part of it because, you know, we have much more work still to do. Absolutely, and I mean, there's so many different dimensions of anti-Semitism that we have not gotten into in this program at all because that's a whole different episode altogether because it warrants a lot of great in-depth discussion just on what anti-Semitism is, its various dimensions and how they manifest in our communities, especially right now when it's growing so rapidly. This is a resurgence of anti-Semitic hate crimes that have happened. And so just so that our audience knows there is going to be a workshop on anti-Semitism, two workshops that are going to be offered March 17th and March 24th and is being offered by the Truth School here locally. And so please visit the Truth School website, TruthSchool.org to get more information about exactly where and what time it is. Meanwhile, I'd just like to thank all three of you. Thank you so much for being so open and kind and sharing your insights. You gave us so much to think about, so thank you. And until next week, this is your host, Mahalika Sundani.