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He's got this dagger and he's got forensic gloves on very carefully handled it's got the forensic tube put it in it they sent it off for DNA analysis urgently and it came back as we came with DNA. That was the murder weapon that convicted Tobin of the murder and linked Tobin to the murder of Ike Hampton that was a great find for us because that that officially linked him. My team recovered him over the other side but he was five years old the youngest I've dealt with I think is about 10 so yeah not not good it's not good. Buried her in Scotland and then he dug her up again without a doubt that's where she was in that hole and then he moved to Dresquiz he didn't want anyone to find her and then he reburied her in in Marguerite and it's like Nicola Payne I searched for them and it's it's it's and and that's one of the things I do want to talk about because yeah the Nicola Bully search we'll know about Nicola Bully and I'm not going to go into the details of the search because there is it'd be unprofessional me because there's an upcoming inquest which is due on the 26th of June. How hard is it though when it's a high-profile search in a school and it's all over the new key use some world-wide like the pressure's on you to find a body like do you feel that adding pressure is it just another job? No I do feel the pressure. When you think about that you just think this poor kid what she went through and and Bridger you know that's where I'm very pro depth penalty you know if they if you kill a child you know or if you you you kill a child you need to be disposed of. And boom we're on the day's guess we're Peter Falden, Peter. Hello James, good to see you. Thanks for inviting me. Thank you. Very interesting story like most I have on you've got an amazing book out What Lies Beneath. Yeah I downloaded the audiobook. Forensic Search and Rescue Expert you've rescued hundreds of bodies from water many places missing bodies murdered some dark dark stuff fair play for still having a twinkle in your eye mate before the madness you've seen also I want to promote that straight away because it's important especially a man who sees a lot of drownings a lot of deaths you'll see people on paddle boards drowning and not just jet skis and boats and whatever but what is this here that you've got of us that's a life jacket but what's the meaning behind that? What it is James this the lad on there's a guy called Lucas Dobson he was six-year-old he drowned in the River Star and Kent we got called into a major search operation to look for him it was a render search it was a fast tidal river basically was out fishing with his dad they they stepped across onto the boat and Lucas fell between the boats and he got washed away everyone dived in after him and that one really hit home hard to me and I've always thought about water safety we average about 10 drownings a year 2016 we had 16 drownings in in eight weeks and that was like just a it was horrendous it was convey about death and we were just going search find them recover them home for their family and it was really sad and I thought you know what I can do something about this I can try so what I did I I went to Baltic life jackets I got together with the dad Nathan Dobson I said do you mind if I use Lucas' little picture on there because it was really upsetting and anyway we got it on and I went to Baltic and they agreed to give them to us at cost so what I do now I fly you probably know I fly my own helicopter my own helicopter at home and I fly around the country and I drop them off at schools so it's a big big event you get all the kids come out onto the playing field they come out they walk around the helicopter then I give them a half hour safety talk water safety talk and it's aimed at primary school kids which is really cool and I do the water safety talk for them and then I give them eight life jackets of different sizes and the idea is it's like a library book scheme so if they're going to go and play near water at the weekend they can book them out like library books it's fantastic and everybody loves it I mean I'm one man doing this and I pay for it I pay for the fuel from a helicopter I had a good friend of mine Debbie Davis who's one of the real housewives of Cheshire she lives up near Manchester and she helped me get quite a few schools up there so Debbie and her husband Pete come out with me sometimes she won't go on a helicopter she won't fly but she drives there in a car and we attract a bit of the sort of local press as well to try and drum it up this water safety it's so so important for children. Why is it so important for a life vest that obviously I've got a lot of loam and stuff I do a lot of cool water fairly people just kind of walk in is that dangerous also just walking and even if it's chest height? What it is mostly the average age of the drowning victims my team and I recover and mainly summertime are between 15 and 17 and what it is they're always showing off in front of girls like we all did and they'll run and jump in the water they'll swim out as fast as they can as far as they maybe 100 meters 50 meters and all of a sudden the water the cold water shock saps your muscles and they get exhausted I mean a lot of these people aren't necessarily fit to swim out they're not used to the cold some get tangled in weed but not many everybody accuses them being drunk none of them have alcohol so it's not alcohol kills them although that's not good to swim but it's the cold water shock that saps their energy away So that's what it is it's not like underwater currents it's at the moment it's just that Yeah there is currents James there's marge you can get your feet stuck in there's weed where one lad who was and this was really sad we got called out by Surrey police to look for this man and his little dog was crying on the river bank and I've got dogs I get upset when I see animals injured you know and he was literally howling beside the river and that was where he was marking his owners where he went in and one of my divers went in we didn't need to use sonar we put the diver in and sonar's not effective in weed and he swam amongst the weed and and recovered him it really sad he just went to have a wash in the river because he was a bit of a new age traveler chap and he lived in a little camper van and he just having a bath in the fresh water at night and it was very clear in that area very clean water and unfortunately got tangled in weed yeah sad that before we get into everything because I know you've got some high profile searches like April Jones yeah some massive names but I always like to go back to the start I guess get a wee bit of understanding about where you've got them all began well I grew up in a place called Woodhatch in Ryegate dad was a printer mum did a bit of housekeeping and I started my life in a two bedroom council house council flat up on the estate in Red Hill Bats Hill and I was always a climber from the age of four and a half I was running across the top of the garage roofs and leaping into the trees and the you know the local ladies weren't impressed as screaming out the windows of the flats I mean we were good kids we weren't you know weren't up to any mischief we were just playing like kids do and I do remember one one guy he was slightly what can we say so mentally backward and he was dressed as Batman and he went running across the roofs of these cars one day and he went straight through the sunroof of one of the I think it was a what a I can't remember the name of the car now but they'd canvas sunroofs and then straight through the roof so we we lived there for a while and then I we moved to a place called Woodhatch mum and dad bought an X2 bedroom council house it was a real do a rupper so we moved there and I went to the local school Springvale school and then I went to the secondary school but I wasn't particularly academic at school I wasn't I was interested in sport you know I wanted to run I wanted to play football I like physics I like metalwork I like history but I didn't like maths or anything else so that was that wasn't my my fun I school was fine but I like the sport stuff and then I went on to when I was five it's going back a couple of years was my dad was a king caver so in the army used to go caving around the country to Yorkshire and everything and he always had these lamps on the stairs with an old cave in helmet and he a local man called Dennis Musto discovered a load of old mine workings at Merstem in Surrey and my dad was worked for the newspaper as a stereotype so he'd done his apprenticeship as a stereotype and he said Johnny you love caves come up and let me let's do this story so he went up there and dad took his cave in lamp up there his old calcium carbide now these are really interesting those who look them up on the YouTube they're really good calcium carbide so they're no electric you put calcium carbide stones in the bottom of the chamber you screw it on you put water in the top and the water drips onto the carbide produces a settling gas and the pressure comes up through a jet and you strike it with like a flint wheel at the front and it makes a long white flame like welders use but it goes on your head so you have to be a bit careful when you're climbing down the ladder anyway and dad went along met Dennis and then they said you know dad said can I come and join you on your exploration and he basically discovered a series of disused mimes will go back to the 11th century Dennis did and a guy called Robin Walls and my dad then started going every Sunday with him and they would come against a roof what I call a bolder choke or a roof fall and tunnel through what was your first ever job my first job my first job was I got an apprenticeship as an engineer is that the planet to start engineer yeah it was an engineering yeah I got a job as an engineer when I left school so I started with a company called multi go but it was that my heart was in the tunneling you see so I went back a bit to the tunnels I was every and that was the funny story so a few weeks later my dad said when he was going down the mines because that is that's what's forged my career can I bring my nipper along he said I was going to call me his nipper and he said five and of course Dennis got five or he'll clamber up the narrow tunnels for us and see what's up there so from literally and the photos are in the book five years old I was go dad got me a little helmet car by the lamp electric lamp by the first little battery lamp and I used to go down the tunnels and I learned to tunnel from literally five years old what's that feeling of being in a closed people get close to that we understand that you clearly don't like was that feeling of freedom for you was that a sense of excitement what was that especially for a young kid it was it was like living in Indiana Jones and the temple of doom and all those fabulous I live this life of excitement you know every Sunday and as I got older we went from Wednesday night as well and we'd explore these old mines and then we come across what they call Boulder Chokes and then we would dig through we dig through these holes and then on the other side we would find more passages and then we'd find clay pipes what people used to smoke on the ground and all oxen shoes and stuff it was incredible I wasn't scared of the dark you know I dad would send me through a little narrow tunnel they could just break through and we'd put a candle through see if there's enough oxygen and if the candle went out there was no oxygen in there but generally there was it was pretty good it was well vented through things like rabbit holes on the surface and I would crawl through and see what was on the other side and I'd say it's a 200 meter passage and I'd go down and have a look on my own it was weird yeah that's a fair play your dad I think that's what some kids need there's a bit of an adventure there's a bit of get up and go and put them in to maybe not mad mad situations but I feel as if kids are very they're very fragile now I don't know if social media plays a part laptops iPads like they're kind of not living I've been watching many videos about just people taking their laptops and iPads off on kids and how creative they become after a couple of weeks and they want to get outside back in the 80s when I was about my I was always football was always something outside and just nature coming in bogging and just having fun that no worries then I can remember there's no having any worries I just think it's a changed days you see a lot of changes in kids as well I do James and I think it's really really important that kids I live on a farm I live on 140 acre farm we bought a few years ago and I love the outdoors my little we've got chickens ducks geese pigs they're all pets alpacas lamas and I've got four emus as well so they're just great and she comes home from school she does her homework and then she's especially in the summer she's out out with her chicken she she puts her chickens in the basket on the front of the front of a push bike and drives around with them it's brilliant she camps out and and that's the life we keep away from an iPad she can look at it when she's travelling she might have a Saturday morning if she has a bit of a lane but that's it we try to avoid it yeah I think it's important it's really really important and I do see it was interesting last year I've done a couple of medicals every year like my pilot's medical my diving medical I can see my diving doctor and I said I don't have summer she's good and she said you won't believe it Peter this is the doctor she said I get mums coming in they they bleach their son's and they've all got always got they wipe them in you know bleach wipes and stuff to keep germs off said she'd be the healthiest kid living on a farm let her eat mud you know let her roll in the mud pick germs up and because she'll build an immune system up these kids have got new immune systems their mums demand antibiotics unbelievable so how do you go from being a welder to then being an expert searching yeah how does that unite and date different jobs but it is kind of like did you always have that ingrained in you that you wanted to be something different I trained as a radar engineer but my heart was in underground stuff you know that's what I always wanted I used to watch Thunderbirds and I wanted to be a rescuer and I thought how do elders in the book you know how do I be a rescuer it's going to be quite odd anyway I started to I used to take groups down the mines because I knew these mines like the back of my hand I do it for a bit of a cash on a Friday night I can't remember it was probably 20 pounds or something and I get all these office groups turn up lend them a hat and take all these girls and guys down the through the tunnels and they used to love it and it was a little backhand the cash thing I did and then one day I was up there with dad and we bumped into the fire service and the fire service were up there doing some training and they didn't know any their way around the mines I mean there was 18 miles of surveyed dis-shoes mines like a network of passages that got opened up and and then obviously scout groups are going down now and I offered to take them down and they said yeah that'd be great so I got to know them and then one day this look if we ever get an instant up here can we give you a pager so you can be our guide I said yeah fine no problems at all and and then one night I was laying in bed when I lived in Hawley and suddenly a page has gone off and all of a sudden we're now the adrenaline's going I'm think I'm on my way to the first rescue you know and turns up and in them days there was there was like five fire engines five or six ambulances for a missing scout group and I was the one everyone was relying on to go down this mine to find these lost kids anyway I did I went through and we found them and they'd been down there about 12 hours and no one had reported them missing for a while they thought they were gone off somewhere else and gone for a picnic or whatever and literally the scout leader was in tears crying the batteries have all run out on their lamps and he told me when we got him out he actually saw monsters coming out the walls that's what the dark can do to you it was quite horrendous and I'd done four or five of them then I got introduced to the London Fire Brigade and because I had this lack of tunneling and I could tunnel which is not many people would do that now confined space tunneling and shoring up where you put pit props in and support the roof so dad taught me that from an early age and then I got introduced to the air ambulance teams in London at Hems then I started training them to work under collapsed buildings and confined spaces under trains and then I started to teach the London Fire Brigade Southern Training School and then there was the Ux Art they called it the United Kingdom search and rescue team for the fire service go to earthquakes so then I started training them and it my name sort of got got known out there but I was only doing this as a volunteer I wasn't getting paid so I was still doing my job and stuff in the background and taking leave to do that a lot of my guests would love you Peter remember that tunneling thing and prison man they would be trying to escape you but it's something that sure shank redemption great escape awesome movie James yeah absolutely that's like tunneling and digging through it and folding it so it doesn't collapse and shoring it up yeah that's mad yeah and that was no kind of experience no that just with your dad just kind of well dad taught me I mean because soft ground tunneling is a real sort of not many people can do it the fire service now the Ux Art teams do it incredible I mean that since it's come along many over the years because they go into more of the earthquakes when I was teaching them pre 9 11 it was me was teaching them to do shoring and then 9 11 came along that mass disaster and then they had to do you know go and learn elsewhere and what the others were doing see the tunneling thing is can you do it with that rocks snow can you do it with different certain things is it all now certain sort well I I tend to do it through I do it through rock and through clay in all weeks soil so it varies the type of soil we're digging digging through so then I I sort of built I had that skill which I could then hand on to other people and then obviously it then led on to the protest stuff you did the same with snow so that you could do yeah I mean if you if you've got snow snow snow is apparently quite self-supporting so if you dig through it and that's why they did get round because square corners don't hold this hold up so well so if you dig it round it'll it'll it'll it'll it'll like an igloo yeah so when did you get seriously involved in the search and rescue like how does it come about from teaching people shown on their minds to then being serious with it when did what age were you I think I was in my yeah I would have been in my 20s when I started to sort of you know start people would come to me and I think it all turned because I 26 I bought my first flat my first wife she got pregnant Mandy at my first daughter when I was about 26 years old and then we you know struggling financially like anybody in them days because the interest rates were going up and down and then I think I got to when I was about 30 1991 when we got to 1991 we moved to Hawley we had a house in Hawley we probably moved there in 98 and then the suddenly interest rates you won't remember but the interest rates went for 4% up to 16% over a year they just went and my mortgage was £400 a month it went up to over £1000 a month and then we had the Thatcher government then Maggie's downfall was the poll tax you heard of the poll tax rights when it was really bad and I was paying £100 for me and £100 for my wife just on to the council £200 a month in them days a lot of money and I had to give my house back so we we we sort of lost our house and I end up going to get a job at the airport cleaning just to try and I knew I could achieve this business I knew I could do it and I was building my contacts up you know a bit like your business and what you've come through and I think it was and your story is amazing I think I then started to be taken seriously I was on call I was doing stuff I was being called out on the air ambulance I mean one of the craziest things one day I got called by the Air Ambulance team to a suicide jumper in Kingston now the London Fire Brigade at the time had spent a fortune on line rescue equipment in other words all the up-sale ropes and everything and then they suddenly got rid of it so they had no rope rescue team and I got called to this crane in in Kingston I say it's all in the book and I looked up and the fireman standing they couldn't do anything and the Air Ambulance team called me in and I looked up and I said yeah go and try and get her down so I got my gear on I climbed the ladder and she the guy's locked in his cab because in a crane you've got like a trap door in the bottom and he's still in there she locked him in he's left his pad lock loose he's now locked in the crane and he left his tools up there and she's throwing spanners at me and I climb it up this 150 foot crane ding ding and they're rattling beside me I climbed up and I said I'm not pleased I've come to help you and we spoke about life and eventually got her down and yeah that was a weird one and then I got called to another one with a dumper truck at Heathrow where it fell down 100 foot sharp and I started to get really recognised at this stage in my rescue capability. Why you though if people are going so to be a search and rescue what's the steps for the average guy to go to college or university to go training just can't do it I mean it's not that you can go to the fire service join the USAR team that's where they would go now but I led this extraordinary life James you know I was grew up we wanted to be this rescue and I was driven by vents I was bumped into people and people said can you come and train our team can you do this and I think one of the biggest turning points for me was we lost our house I moved to a flat times were hard and then I got a call one day and I wanted to call my company specialist rescue international and I got you can imagine I got people laughing at me those thunderbirds so I started this company I had no money and I went to the bank manager and said I want to borrow 1500 pounds overdraft he said you'll never get anywhere being a rescuer I said well I'm going to try and that because I started then to write articles from magazine for international fire magazines and I'd get about 300 pounds for an article you know and I did and and my name got around and then I started to train the oil refineries so Elfoil, Goldfoil, BP and in rescue rescue from heights and all this and my name was out there but the most interesting one was when I got a call one day my wife with baby in the hand and he answered the phone specialist rescue international he said oh my name is Mervyn Edwards can I speak to Peter and she's held the hand over the microphone over the phone because Natasha was crying in the background so yeah just hold I'll get him for you put you through so we lived at a flat hello Peter my name is Mervyn Edwards we got I don't know if you've been watching the news I didn't really have time to watch the news in them days and we got a bit of a problem with others in some tunnels at Newbury Bypass I said right I don't know if you've seen it I said I haven't and he said I'd like to have a chat with you tomorrow and that was the start that was the turning point for me financially and to actually start the business which we can talk about that's bad doing that see when they call you Peter yeah they're basically dead or there's a good chance they're alive you called the first day or you called when they can't find them after 3-4 days drowning victims so we cover for police diving so we cover Essex we don't really do much up there because generally choir Kent police Surrey police Sussex police Thames Valley police and Hampshire police now people think that every police force has got an underwater search team of divers or frogmen whatever you want to call them they haven't there's very few left now the nearest one to us is we cover the whole of southeast the next one is the Met the Met are really refined to London and sort of bit of Essex occasion they come out but they're extremely busy the next one is Nottingham and the next one's even sunset there's very few Essex Sussex got rid of theirs disbanded it through budget cuts Thames Valley disbanded theirs so we are the core team on call to recover the drowning victims and we deal with number of suicides every year as well so when you get called is it drowning suicides when you talk about getting up the crane how does what sort of when did it start becoming so serious when you started getting the big calls because I know you've searched for the Peter Tobens missing victims that when does it when do you become from climbing a crane helping a suicide just trying to help our life to then getting called for fucking some serious dark stuff I think the protest stuff happened first because we ended up digging you remember Swampy so Swampy I was called in to deal with the protestors at Newbury I remember the underchef saying to me he said Peter he said we got these oaks down these tunnels and he said I need a copy of your contract and I said you haven't got a contract have you I said no he said cobble something together and I get it signed I need these people out of the tunnels and then from there I went to the Honiton bypass to dig Swampy out and then we done that and while we were down there they were digging in at Manchester airport for a month we took a month to get them out and then all the money that we earned on that it was high-risk work and it was really dangerous work I mean I'm down there crawling down these tunnels in my team and I'm being hung upside down by my feet as you see the pictures in the book of me down a shaft by my ankles trying to release a chain now these these protestors and I'll probably talk about this first before we go on to the murder stuff you know because the protestors we built this mutual respect up with them they knew me and I would turn up and they'd say where's Pete and I'll go and get him you know I'd come over and then I'd be down the tunnel with him and Swampy's on one side of the door and I'm the other and we're taking the little and you could imagine these tunnels are this high they're tiny what do you think are those protestors the ones who chain themselves through road and glue themselves there's a guy in the snooker table who's throwing dry paint and I'm thinking they do more damage than good there's kids at these events you could have had anything in that bag thrown over the table people are genuinely scared that they could have been gas it could have been fucking poison and these people think it's fine and now I'm hearing a lot of these people are actually paid by big corporations to do this kind of madness that somebody died in an ambulance because they couldn't get a hospital because these fucking idiots are tying themselves to the road like they're I get protest and try to make a change that I totally understand it but I feel as if who's right then if you're trying to protest something but causing destruction as well then how good are you and the different yeah so the guys down the tunnels I got no problem with you know at the end of the day I made a good living out of that over the years and they were fine they were polite everything the ones who chain themselves to the roads glue themselves to the roads to the public stop emergency vehicles stop people getting observed obviously they've got to bring some tough sentences in I'm I don't I don't wear it I've got no zero respect for them whatsoever if you disrupt major disruption everyone's got a right to free protest and speech I've got no problem with that if you want to go and hang out in Parliament Square with a placard and make your point and I think what it is they just they they're not gaining all when they dug in at the all refinery down in Kent they dug a tunnel down there and the police couldn't get them out I was over in Europe and they said we might have to bring you back to dig these people out and I didn't in the end because they came out they run out of food but I've got no time swampy and he he's been disrupting HS2 and stuff on private land on private woods he's actually yes he's causing disruption and been a bit of a pain in the backside but I've got no real big issue with him he he's actually a nice enough lad but it's the ones who like you said lay in a public road and block the police and emergency services from getting it's when your mum's been burgled there's someone having a heart attack and the ambulance can't get there we've got a tough and up on them ones yeah that's that's it's it's you know I I said I'm open to freedom of speech and you know peaceful protest but once it gets violent and the other one is once they start throwing paint over buildings and lovely paintings in a gallery what are you achieving you know what you're doing you're effectively and they say they want dialogue with the with the government and people but no one's going to talk to them when they're doing this type of stuff schoolboy stuff some of them are kind of deluded kind of mental health people just want to feel part of something where they'll do that shit to find a lot of people do it for views now a lot of people do it for views they're trying to change the world that that's in the world it's going to keep going whether you for paint or not I agree do you know what I mean like what was the first dead body you'd seen clear first one I saw I saw I saw a few on the air ambulance when I was the first I saw a lot on the air ambulance I would say because we would when I used to train them in confined spaces and I used to take the merstoms the doctors and the paramedics they then would take me out on the air ambulance once every six weeks and I was an observer and actually put me on the advanced trauma life support course as an observer so I learned a lot of medical skills where I could just understand what the doctors were doing and I would go out to stab in so would go out to road accidents and I would see you know death then and I think one of the most shocking ones I saw I was out on the air medical car one Christmas Eve with a doctor helping the doctor carries kit and everything else because I found the medical stuff fascinating you know I wasn't a paramedic I was I could do so much but I wasn't like a paramedic or anything and I'd help the dots and we got called to a hanging and we walked in this front door and the police were there and there's a Chinese guy hanging from his tie from the banister just staring at us and that was quite quite shocking and I just thought Christmas Eve this poor man his family and I always think about the family you see it's not just he's left he's decided to take his own life but what about the family he's leaving behind and that always hurts me you know when I see when I pull drowning victims out with my team and I say it's not just me I often find them with a sonar boy I'm a diver as well but the boys are going to recover the body or I recover the body and we take them out of the water and they're just laying there staring at you and you just think two hours or where you know because we always get called pretty quickly and we find them really quickly and they're just laying there and they were walking around a couple of hours ago now they've got the loved ones at home and the loved ones may not even know they're dead yet and I think one of the hardest sitting ones we do a lot of suicides every year and we had a one in Surrey near Newdegate and there was a lady just she done all her makeup and she had some pills and she had a bit of some whiskey and she just wandered into the lake she's done all her hair and we recovered her body and the police were down by the lake and we were up by a command centre and this gentleman turned up and he said oh excuse me he said have they found her? I said do you mind if I ask you you are very politely and he said I'm her husband and I sort of put my arm around him and let him off I said really sorry sir but yes we have found her because of no police officers to give that message ten minutes later another gentleman turned up he said oh do you know if they've found her yet by a name I said do you mind if I ask you you are he said I'm her ex-husband and I've got the kids in the car and it was like whoa and that brings a tear to your eye things like that is not I don't enjoy dealing with drownings and that's why I started the life jacket campaign I hate it I don't want to be called out we don't want to be called out to drownings but we know once we get to the end of May we carry our bleepers I'll be on the farm and I'll be on the tractor playing with the kid in the summer and the beep beep beep and it says person in water I know that person in water is not alive we get called by the fire service or the police they're dead and we've got to go and find them how about that then if you're playing the farm with your daughters and you get that beep beep beep know you're going to find a kid a dead body not just a kid an adult but how's that feeling that you become just so numb to it job on kind of leave it at home I'm leaving my kids or is it still in playing your mind that could be my kid how do you switch off from going and picking up dead bodies every other day I think I've got a good family and I and I'm where I live I live on a farm and I enjoy my animals and everything else so I'm fortunate enough to have a great wife as well and I'll get home and sit down depends what time sometimes we get back at three in the morning I'll be out in the dark but I'll get home and I'll just sit and have a glass of whiskey or a glass of red wine and we'll just relax and we'll just talk about it and then I'll go to bed and just try and forget about it if I can it would crack you up who's the youngest person you've ever played Lucas Dobson my team yeah I actually knew Lucas he was he was the my team recovered him over the other side but he was five years old the youngest I've dealt with I think is about ten so yeah not not good it's not good did you ever get do you get fairer period anything that you get speak to anybody you've just done wings with the masses and the kids and all the animals we can we we've got access to counsellors if we need it through the emergency services but I deal with it myself and I've dealt with so many now it's a bit like a you know if you think about paramedics every day and doctors and dealing with death all day long they're dealing with all day long which is really tough I'm not I'm dealing with it occasionally more more so in the summer and the summertime is like a convey about a death for us it's not nice and that's why on my social media feeds on my Twitter on my Facebook and a company Facebook I put what you'll see them there's water safety messages out there all the time just trying to tell people just be careful not not being a killjoy not don't go near the water but if you're on the beach swim between the flags with the lifeguards who are brilliant keep an eye on you if you go on a paddle board put a life jacket on you're not pansy if you go out wearing a life jacket because I can tell you now you fall off or the you know people don't realize the weather you could be on moment and it's calm give you an idea I was out last year in Lake Garda and I was I was watching a boat go out and I knew the weather was going to change the wind was due to pick up and all these little pleasure boats out on Lake Garda were in one minute in the sunshine and then I could feel the breeze picking up and all of a sudden the whole of Lake Garda turned into washing machine it was like really rough and people were screaming to get back in in their pleasure boats none of them had life jackets on so a lake can turn very nasty very very quickly with a bit of wind for a storm seeming again to the water do you know seeming you find the body do you know how long have I actually been dead for yeah generally yeah I mean if we're dealing with suicide some we've I mean we've had them in there water for three months where we've been called and we've been looking but generally if the body goes in and it's a witness drowning we got intelligence that there's a body in that stretch of water we always find it always find it if it's after two or three months and there's been the differences finding bodies if it's a stormwater there's been massive rainfall and somewhere like the river seven where it's gushing through then it's then they're likely to get washed a long way down but in canals rivers lakes if they go in we find them always fought bodies came in the south first interesting they do after there's no exact science on this after about six to five or five to eight days a body the where your body decomposes from inside out it makes a gas don't know what gas it is and the body bloats like a dead seal and the body will just come up to the surface and lay on the surface and that's why most dog walkers find bodies they will find a body what's gone missing because again with the lack of underwater search units in the UK now forces who don't have underwater surface search units their loved one could be laying in the river and won't never be found until unfortunately you have a grim find of a decomposed body it is mad it's mad how many of these search search and rescue teams are in the UK? I think there's about seven underwater search units now across the whole of the UK Scotland do you got one please I think that's the main asking bridge a few people used to jump off of if you get main targets like certain areas being okay that's a suicide a certain bridge or a certain river yeah and here yeah how many suicides do you would you see roughly a year deal with about five five to six and covid and again we expected it to go up in covid but we actually didn't I think we had about three on average during covid a lot of the time they they do different ways of committing to it and I'm not going to go into that but we had one gentleman who'd literally put a rack sack full of bricks on his back and he tied up a message in a bottle and he put it like string around it it was empty bottle he jumped in the river and that floating on the water on the top and that indicated where he was that showed us where he was and he just wanted to be recovered sad that it's really really sad and it's it's tough to deal with to be honest I don't I don't enjoy any of I enjoy crime search when I'm looking for a weapon when I'm looking for something which is going to potentially get a conviction but I don't enjoy looking for drowning victims I never have done none of my team do we don't you know we don't think all would be as a call out we'd rather be sitting I'd rather be home with a family to be honest we're busy enough as it is without dealing with that stuff you know see if you come down to the water can you tell if the sewer side or they've been pushed because what's the difference if something's just jumped but what if it's pushed in a certain way it's normally a death grip what they call a death grip so people when they drown normally they are like one guy and they grab their glasses or they grab onto weed so normally they've got they grip the weed and they have it in their hands like that is normally if they're in the water and their arms are open they're probably dead before they hit the water it's a bit of a strange one but if people drown they generally what they call the death grip see when you're getting called out to is it not just bodies you're also looking for murder weapons you're looking for many things yeah we're looking for years ago we used to do a lot of drugs as well a lot of under ships and all that sort of things for customs and excise so we did drugs, terrorist devices all sorts of different work really we've been involved with over the years but yeah weapons shotguns just simple evidence it doesn't need to be you know anything it can be any part of evidence for a police force that they require. Tell me that's Peter I read this years ago but I don't know if it's true dolphins they can sense that bombs and bodies and like how intelligent is a dolphin well I don't know but I've read something about the US Navy are doing and they train dolphins to deliver explosives to ships and all sorts they're very clever dolphins are I mean it's like animals I mean we've got chickens you know and you don't realise how intelligent these little creatures are they've got feelings like anything I mean I saw a duck one day really horrible when I love animals and I saw a duck get run over in the road on this quiet country lane the car just drove off and his little friend the female was just running around crying around him in the road and that was really sad and I just things like that affect me you know you look at that and just think the poor little thing it's got feelings and you don't realise that your pig has got my pig I've got one called Louis the pig and he's a rescue pig and I've got two others and they come out with him and I think Churchill said a pig will look you and lie like a human or something but they are so clever and he gives you his paw and he'll do a 12 he's a really clever pig and yeah you know pigs are highly intelligent but same as that listen I've went vegan I've went veg I do love chicken I love steak but if you actually do look at the animal if you feel it's breath if you can feel it's heart beat and look at it's eyes you can see that they're here for a purpose whether it's to eat them or not I genuinely wish I wouldn't but I've been so conditioned to brought out and eating fucking meats and chickens same as you Jack I know I eat meat we don't kill any of our animals because they are literally but it's a mass contradiction in it but love animals look at it got feelings that little duck but then we won't have fucking duck soup or whatever it is and I like a steak like you do I like lobster and fish and everything really as long as we don't see them getting killed then it's not as bad exactly I haven't gone vegan now I just that's what my daughter went vegan for years but my eldest daughter but she then went away with her buddies one day and started eating burgers again so see me are going for a search and rescue for somebody that's in the water what sort of equipment would you need? Well we got in 1999 I went out to because one of the big thing I sat on a home office working group over here for the government and one area was looking at was underwater search we only had divers and we could not search large areas of water but the Americans seem to have it nailed so I went out to the states and I looked at a team we were using this side scan sonar and we brought it back to the UK and it's it basically is like a missile you towed behind the boat and this was what I used on the Nikola bully case what was a lot of controversy around it sends a sound wave across the river bed and I can scan 20 meters or up to 30 meters either side of the boats like we call it a swath so if you imagine the missile getting towed behind the boat the tube and it sends a signal out and it hits a target and a body looks like a body there's a picture in the book can I show you there's like a picture in the book that actually is a body laying on the bottom there you go that is a body on the left that's the body there is yeah that's it and I can zoom in oh that was in 30 feet of water so yeah it's that's you know if there's a body in the water I'll find it it's as simple as that we train constantly and I developed sonar in the UK I was the first person ever to use it forensically and that's the kit we use it's got better we had 900 kilohertz then we went to this is frequency so the higher the frequency the higher the detail then we went to 1200 and we've spent 55 grand a couple of years ago on a new one and that's now 1800 kilohertz I can find little bags on the bottom it's it's footprints I put a picture on my social feed the other day on Twitter and I showed footprints actually on the bottom they use the helicopter use thermal image we the problem is when you see the police going overhead with thermal image cameras and searching for people once someone drowns they generally go to the bottom they they do they don't stay unless you've got a life jacket on they will go straight to the bottom and they will stay there they won't move we can get called in we've been called into jobs picked a particular one in Oxfordshire three days after the event we got called in and they were searching up and down the river they couldn't find him they had a the environment agency had a sonar wasn't like ours no one could find him I put the sonar in found him straight away and then recovered the lad guy called Ellis Downs chap called Ellis Downs really sad and he was laying on the bottom for three days he hadn't moved bodies don't move in still ish water if it's a raging flood they might tumble down the water down the river a bit more get lodged but if it's pretty calm bodies always go to the bottom what's the deepest chicken gore 50 meters we can go 50 meters on air and that's because we're governed we're professional divers and we're governed by the health and safety executive where sport divers can use Trimix and things like that so they can go really deep but we're governed to 50 meters so what if somebody is sexy 70 million oh there's a net that was that was a good point actually so there was one down in the quarry the national dive centre in Chepstow and there was a couple young couple they went diving he wasn't quite experienced diver she wasn't he decided we don't know why to try and take her in down to 50 meters one day so we got the call what happened they went diving didn't tell anybody they sneaked in and they they while the guy was at lunch they dumped their cars got the dive kit and went diving anyway they never come up guy in the dive centre reported the car to the police they PNC'd it done the number plate check went to the fan oh they gone diving in the quarry no sign of them the Somerset Police South Wales Police searched and then on the Sunday we got the call to say too deep for us Pete we need your kit down there so I tried using Sonar but the rocks on the bottom of this quarry are so big boulders it won't go between the boulders so we got a thing called a remote operated vehicle an ROV so we sent the submarine down and we located them using the submarine but it was out of the range of the police dive team Bob Randall and his team from Somerset so we thought how are we going to do this and this sport diver walked over from the dive centre and he saw him a trimmix diver because we'd found the body and that's the worst thing we've got it wasn't me it was Darren who as you found them and I was I had been searching all day long and then I had a break I just needed to cup a tea my eyes were going on the screen and he said I found them I walked over and there was these just two lifeless bodies laying on the bottom it was really grim in 70 meters of water so this diver come over and he said you know I shouldn't be doing this but I can offer my help and anyway he swam down to 70 meters hooked a line on them that was his job done and what we done we put two boats out and we pulled them up from 70 meters to 50 meters and then I remember driving the boat with Bob hanging on the end with the two bodies over to a 19 meter shelf I think it was 19 or 17 meters landed them on the shelf we changed divers then another police day was a police diver because they were the divers on that operation we located them using our kit and then we pulled them up again and it was just horrible just girlfriend boyfriend I think the toughest part of that job was we recovered the bodies we got them we done what we needed to do with the police and the dive centre put on some food for us and there's all these grown men all these great police divers and us all sitting around chatting we all knew each other and a lady walked over and she said excuse me gentlemen she said by names I'm the mother of one of the boy the girl and she said I'd just like to thank you for what you've done today with tears running down the street that's that's my daughter you know whatever and I've never seen men just like with tears running down their face that is tough when you're dealing with that you're dealing with a mother who's just lost a daughter son and we were speechless nobody actually said a word we were just there all these you know ex-military guys and everything and they were just tears running down their cheeks and no one spoke we just ate our lunch and no one spoke to each other they died he they were tied together on what we call a buddy line so he clipped her to him he he he had been diving in salt water in the sea and the salt is buoyant that's why the red sea float easier they were now diving in fresh water so he had too much weight on him so what he's led weights he had too many so he couldn't hold himself up and he just literally dragged her down to 70 meters so she would have he died of barotrauma and she's still I think he's he's basically his lungs burst and I remember looking at the post-mortem pictures it was horrible but I think it's yeah not nice that's one of them tough jobs you do I see when you go underwater like when does when do you start feeling the pressure when do you start feeling the lungs and everything kind of where you equalize as when you're underwater you we equalize so as we go down if you don't do that we ever know what they call a nose block on our Mars so inside our we were a full face mask inside the face mask you got a little V block and you push your nose into it to block your nose and like when on an airplane when you come in on an airplane you go pop your ears if you don't do that your eardrums burst so as we go as we descend that's where you always descend slowly and that's when you from a dive whenever you come up most of our diving is less than 5 meters because it's shallow rivers and canals and stuff like that but it's very black we can't see anything so as you come up whenever you come up from diving you always breathe out you don't hold your breath or the lungs will expand and burst your lungs I've seen videos as well with a fire service I think it was like 2-3 meters of water the person was there drowning but because of health and safety they couldn't get in save them like how hard does that is it's easy for me to say listen fuck my job I'm going to save that person but they didn't because if they did then something went wrong it's them who gets done like how hard is that for someone to see that? Yeah it's all about yeah firefighters will always do their best to save somebody you know with a great bunch of guys and police as well but unfortunately there was an incident down in Southampton where there was a slightly he had mental health issues and he was called this gentleman and he used to go down and feed the ducks every day in the pond anyway some reason he fell in the pond and someone called the emergency services police turned up police officer was going to drop him he got stopped couldn't get in we called the water rescue unit and when they finally went running jumping into the pond half hour later it was up to their waist it wasn't a deep pond at all and he died and there was a big inquiry into that so I think we would all do what we can do we're a private company whereas the fire service is governed nationally and we've done some really risky stuff in what we do sometimes you just have to do it what's the longest you've went and got rescue someone for how long have they been underwater? Underwater well drowning victims can be under days if they're left under days normally we have them out within an hour I mean that's if they drown we're on scene quickly generally depends where it is and we recover them quickly but we had a chap who was underwater for three months and he wasn't in a good way three month old body. Seemingly decomposing act but when does it start going scare it in kind of way or is the water just kind of flesh? He was solid I mean we had a guy called Damien Touch was in a car so he was missing down in West Mercia police called me and I was brought in to review the case they were just going to throw the case away and case closed basically and they brought me in to review it and I said he's in the river because it had been searched 12 times by a voluntary organization with what they thought was a sonar it wasn't a sonar it was a fish finder and I said he's in the river he said well he can't be because the environment agency said if he's in the river there'll be oil residue it will show up where it leaks out the fuel tanks and petrol and I said well I believe he's in the river looking at cell site analysis from his mobile so I said trust me to come in I'll find him if he's there so they asked me to go down I put the sonar on the water in 10 minutes I found two cars we dived the first one it was a stolen car second one it was Damien's car we found Damien Touch he had been in the water 18 months but because it was inside his car it was a suicide the windows were sealed up but no fish life could get to him so he was a solid block of like wax so his body was he was a body and what happens if the first quarter would have been eating they would eat you yeah marine life just eats you you know so it see shrimps whatever the crayfish will just demolish you yeah they will what's the first big case you walked on that missing case but when did you the Peter Tobin thing come about the first big one for me because it won't because once I brought I'll try and explain this so once I brought sonar into the UK I met a guy called Mark Harrison Mark Harrison MBE he was the national police search advisor he was great guy and he wanted to see this kit so he started coming out with us on training exercise in 1999 and Mark said I'm going to put you on the expert advisor's database because we need this kit and you know your stuff you're the only person who can use this kit in the UK and I said yeah fine obviously with it was a charge for that so I got put on the database and it was in them days it was the national crime faculty and then it became the national crime and operations faculty now the national crime agency and Mark the Nishi called me into search for Alison McGarregal in the Clyde in Scotland and I confirmed that the wheelie bin she had been dismembered in was not in the Clyde it wasn't there eventually it was found by fishermen and it was hauled up in fishing nets on land but that was a big case and then Mark started calling me in all around the UK but at the same time I was looking at ground penetrating radar to look for buried bodies and I was a kid I forgot to mention that my dad taught me to find stuff so he would tell me to walk along my dad would be picking coins out he said keep your eyes open son you'll miss it and we go to the woods and look for depressions where old minds had been filled in and I could find stuff and I had this natural ability to find things and that's where it sort of came on all these years later really and I will find anything and we use a range of metal detectors we use all sorts of technology but ground radar so I developed this I got this ground radar and knowing Mark Mark rang me one day he said I've got a very confidential case for you to work on it's a guy called Tobin I'm going to send you the file encrypted it's an active we're in a hurry on this one within two weeks we're going to search this house and he was arrested so he attempted to murder two children down his South Sea as you know Tobin was vile and then he murdered Angelica Clooke in the Scottish church and he lived in Bathgate now when he got convicted of that they then started looking at his background because they used to be a rapist going around Scotland called Bible John around Glasgow but they could never sort of pin it on him so then they looked at Bathgate where Tobin lived and they realised that Vicky Hamilton who went missing 15 years earlier lived just around the corner from Tobin so Mark rang me up and said you are going to conduct a full police aren't going to do it you are with your team the police will provide forensics for you but you are the one going to be searching this house we're looking for a murder weapon and we're looking for a body so I went up there and there was this big rockery in the back garden and again it's in the book pictures and there was a rockery in the back garden and the neighbour I always go and talk to the neighbours or talk to the with police permission because you get more information from the neighbour or who's like the local area the kids tell me if there's any mineshafts or wells in the woods they'll always tell you where they are we don't know the area and he said yeah he said one day he was a guy as a serial killer didn't realise at the top of the garden he dug this huge hole and it went over two metres deep and he said what are you digging for Australia Pete and he said yeah I'm digging a sand pit for my little one anyway a couple of days later it all got filled in he said where's the hole where's the sand pit social services told me to fill it in never thought nothing more of it and over the years the rockery got bigger and bigger and bigger and there's a big mound and that was it so the first bit we focused on was the mound and then I got the forensic archaeologist who will dig anything up she took all the the rockery away we then got the human remains dogs the police they then probed the ground because police dogs you probe the ground first you leave it for 30 seconds 30 minutes sorry then send the little dog in the dog if he finds something they they're trained they put their nose to the ground wag their tail and then they get their ball some dogs will just stand still but they vary I've worked with Mandy Chapman a good friend of mine in London and she's a brilliant dog handler and they train dog Carly they train in different ways anyway he indicated then they sent that dog out they don't normally do this but they decide to leave it another half hour probe again and bring another dog in dog indicated so then I'll run the radar over and I saw this huge hole going down about two meters with what they call a hyperbola and it looked like something it could have been a bear no my it could be looking for a dismember body or full body and it was it was nothing it was basically archaeologists followed the hole all the way down that Tobin originally dug but there's nothing there I then searched the kitchen the guards team got a call from Aidan in the loft said Pete I found something he said I found a knife straight up in the loft and what we do when we search we strip all the lagging out everything comes out the loft you search the gutters you search everything using boroscopes anyway there's this dagger and he's got this dagger and he's got a forensic gloves on very carefully handled it's got the forensic tube put it in it they sent it off DNA analysis urgently and it came back as Vicki and was a DNA that was the murder weapon that convicted Tobin of the murder and linked Tobin to the murder of Vicki Ames and that was a great find for us because that that officially linked him Tobin was a needle he was a bastard he draped a young police girl the priest was a fucking father Jerry that he used to come into my school as well I'm from that near the apostle that and some parts I used to go to school would say but fucking see the see the bastards that Tobin though that I seen the video coming out to court and they kicked the photographer and you could see the evilness even when he was dying in his death bed he was saying he's done potentially 10 20 other murders I think Tobin you know David Swindle he was the chief superintendent on the job and he ran a big operation and David talks about it a lot and it's just Tobin even tacked the media that day when he came out I remember he used to be filming he went for the camera man and everything he was just vile and he is responsible without doubt without doubt and Mark Williams Thomas often speaks about this he's looked at this case and he's without doubt murdered many more without a doubt yeah he's not just Fred and Rose West this is an I never worked on that job but this is just a huge he's a huge one. How was that feeling for Ricky's family were they still alive like 15 years later to then was it 15 years later yeah it was 15 years later I never see I never met the fact that was 1997 2007 sorry 2007 I never met the family I met the there's been documentaries me talking on recently with the police they've done a lot of documentaries on it but we then went straight down to Portsmouth from there because he's old house in Southsea which he rented a room so I had to do a full forensic search of that house I we cut the floorboards went under his bedroom where he lived because he we knew he was a barrier but there was no sign of Vicky now while we were working in Southsea and that there's a picture of me leaving the Southsea addressing my forensic suit on in the book and Lucy Cyburn who's the forensic archaeologist to excavated Sarah Payne brilliant forensic archaeologist and they were working in Kent with Kent police along with being guided by them of the Strathclyde as well and they went down there they dug in the garden Lucy did and they found the bodies of two victims that was Vicky Hamilton and dynamic Nicole now Dinah went missing from Reigert Hill she hit your lift and she got him with the wrong guy one day and Vicky Hamilton they were both dismembered they were both cut cut in half I've seen the pictures and they still had their nail varnish on it's horrendous and Lucy Lucy done the excavation but it was just he he'd murdered Vicky and he'd buried her in Scotland and then he dug her up again without a doubt that's where she was in that hole and then he moved to dress because he didn't want anyone to find her and then he reburied her in in Margate so do you see the first hole you dug do you feel Peter Tobin buried Vicky there without a doubt dug her back up with travelled up to Scotland and buried her there note to note he travelled to Margate in Kent from Scotland because he was moving house he then sold his house there he was then bought a new house in Margate so he then brought Vicky with him so undoubtedly that he buried Vicky first and then dynamic Nicole check that some sort of fetish having dead bodies around you but probably I think he just didn't want he didn't want to be exposed because people do their gardens and they weren't that deep underground but they're encased in concrete so you know and this is what you know the police getting knocked for all sorts of stuff that was a that was an incredible investigation they did really was and and a lot of them you know go on around the UK you know police are always getting beaten up for not doing good jobs but I've worked on with some great detectives around the UK and they're the best and awesome people yeah I've been saying this recently like when I grew up it was a rough environment it was always straight back from the corpus hate the bastards this and that but the more as I've got older and the more undercover corpus and if you realise the depth of these people actually go in the pain they go their means are gone the undercover pedophile the undercover prostitute I went on just to catch predators people fucking try to abuse young kids that and he went undercover as a drug dealer and you can you see the twitches in their body the pain that they have to go through to the unbelievable work man and people need to understand what the depths I always say this but it was good and bad everywhere you're going to get corrupt corpus any job any business I call it a 2% club it's 2% of bad in everything so if you imagine the Met Police 2% of the Met Police is obviously huge if it was Surrey Police 2% would be a very small portion that's not exact why you call it the 2% club in the book about I've met idiots in all walks of life whatever you're with a surveyor your bank manager or whatever there's always 2% of bad in every walk of life because the people who generally want to clean up the streets would like to choose that job you've kind of got to be you probably not realise the extent you have to go through kids getting raped dead bodies fucking beatings all the time and people hating on you and getting person and abused walking the beat well we used to get that you see police walking the beat but the amount of abuse they get and also firefighters and bricks and throwing them out blocks of flats I mean it's just paramedics getting abused it's awful it sickens me these are hard working people who are doing a job to prime protect us that's the great thing because the shot has to find that's the first one and they're the first to get you know they get reported on and it goes in the papers but good and bad but I think more now with podcasts and stuff people can understand the depth of the people going I've got so much respect for people who chooses that job like I was doing dodgy shit anyway so obviously you're going to go against the cops because they're trying to put me in jail but now I understand what my main does they were actually good people I was trying to do bad stuff you were and you get older and wiser didn't we judge what an idea but why was I raised to think that fuck the police and you're thinking idea just an idea and now I understand the depth that they go through and I think fucking mass respect for people doing that man we you see them when they're young you see this sort of 18 20 it's like all the stabbings isn't it what a waste of life and we've the sentences just aren't tough enough and they should be taken to the morgues to see their victims to be honest with it because when you start seeing dead people you you know they got families that's their life ruined that's the family can never never rest or what's it like when you get called for a search and restroom you don't find the body very often nowadays I mean we often get we get called and we find it's only when it gets left like four five six days in the winter if there's a flood and then the body can get lodged under under a you know what they call strainers under logs and it gets held under with pressure if it's a really fast moving river to a bit of a strain as a happens on tidal rivers as well but the strain has got to be there for it to get lodged under yeah it's just I don't know yeah I do and I I never give up on a lot of these I mean at the moment I'm working on the Helen McCourt case which is Helen went missing 30 or years ago and the mum come to me to try and help find mum a daughter sorry Marie McCourt come to me and she brought in Helen's law Helen went missing she was murdered by a scumbag he'd done 32 years in jail but he died but he never would give up where the body was so I've narrowed down looking at all the charts and all the maps we've got the police information we've got to an area which I'm now doing a very very fine detailed search on and I do that at my own time I normally fly out I was due to go up this week actually but the weather's not good for flying it's a long drive for me I'm busy so I normally fly the helicopter up early morning land and she meets me there she brings the sandwiches with her husband John and I spend the day in the woods looking and now I've got Lucy Sybin helping me as well the forensic archaeologist and it's just and it's like Nicola Payne I search for them and it's and that's one of the things I do want to talk about because the Nicola Bully search we'll know about Nicola Bully and I'm not going to go into the details of the search because there is it'd be unprofessional me because there's an upcoming inquest I'll take the June but it was I wrote this book it took me eight months to write this book of all the forensic work I've done and protester work I've done and then we had the book launch on the Friday the Daily Mail done two double page features in the Saturday and Sunday Mail two weeks earlier and then we had the book launch with Alan Carr Alan's a good friend of mine we come he's a neighbour so we come in on Friday night in the Denby's and then Saturday and I've just done another big double page feature with another national newspaper I was due to go on radio TV breakfast the following week and it was all lined up and then suddenly on Saturday after the book launch the second I got a call on the third say Peter we need your help can you come and help us try and look look for my wife you know so okay I've been watching it a bit on the news see where we are and then Sky News because obviously they spoke to Sky News Sky News then can't start contacting me and asking me about what we can do so I gave a couple of interviews and then when I didn't find her it was interesting when when no bearing in mind the police were searching for three weeks doing a really thorough search I went up there for four days to do a three and a half days to do another thorough search using the sonar and people accusing me of like China using this to plug my book what they didn't realise is that on the Monday morning as soon as we arrived I rung the publisher and said right stop the TV interviews stop the big publication going out this week we cannot promote this book while I'm working on this job there is nothing the book was never mentioned because I got sideswiped by one of the reporters saying you're doing this for an ulterior motive and I really went for him and I wasn't wearing it and I was freezing cold when a team were we put our hearts into that and it cost me thousands of pounds in wages money no mention of the book anyway and he was trying to get me to talk about the book and I said I'm not doing this for anyway it's all I put that on my Twitter feed just because I don't have enough of it and just on my Twitter feed alone that went at six million views unbelievable there was such a following of this but unfortunately yeah I was eventually found in the reeds in the edge of the river but I'll talk about that posting quest but it's sad that you have to explain yourself that fuck them but I had two giants because you're clearly a good guy you're out there finding bodies and looking for serial colours burying kids even if you're promoting your book you fucking deserve to make a fucking money but you don't need to explain yourself to fucking assholes who don't realise the thing you go through seeing dead bodies every other day searching for missing kids but that's unbelievable what you're doing Peter that is a phenomenal massive respect to watch people don't realise it but it's not just that one it was Ellie Stowns when they couldn't find Ellie Stowns laying in the river because Thames Valley got rid of their underwater search unit we now do their diving he couldn't be found I come in and found it free of charge without the family Nicola Payne Marie McCourt helping Irvine in my own time delivering people and it was just I was was not getting paid for any of the interviews I got offered money for two of the interviews I said well that money I well I don't need the money I'll give that to my life jacket campaign so that money is bought a load of life jackets and we've got it clear gone into the account for the life jacket campaign and it's in there and that's going to buy life jackets and I was sickened by these trolls and I don't normally get trolled and these vile individuals just online and I can see why I I'm brought shoulder I I don't care you know I really don't care but these idiots who are abusing me saying couldn't even find a hooker in a brothel and stuff like that I'm sure I could but you know what I mean and it was just absolute sick anyway it's right kill it block but then you think now I'll unblock and let them see my work because if you read my book you realise that I'm highly experienced in that job and you know and one guy really threatening us and do me a favour come down and tell me to my face and he just he just went quiet come and tell me to my face and my team that we're allowed to this come to my office is a postcode I look forward to seeing you welcome to social media the other way a lot of people actually take their own life because it trolls yeah the shit that people say listen I'm so fix kind of for all now I just laugh off and I'll fire back a couple of shots it's childish but this is the way the world people are so lonely and so hot that I look for people to hate on people that don't even know yeah but if you look at the people who are giving the abuse if you look at their profile all they're doing is abusing politicians all the time and people like that I mean you wouldn't want to be you wouldn't want to be Boris Johnson or Rushi Sunak with your PM you're getting that thousands of people doing it to every day and it must be quite tough and you're trying to do your best best you can but you're just getting slammed how hard is it though when it's a high profile search and rescue and it's all over the new key use some worldwide like the pressures on you to find a body like do you feel that adding pressure is it just another job no I do feel the pressure I I stay late and I just I just won't keep going until I find unfortunately in the Nikki the bully circumstance I couldn't I search and search and she wasn't there you know but not only me it was the police had searched for three weeks and got over three weeks and they couldn't find her either you know the dead sonar they had divers the sonar won't go through the reeds and that's what I want to make clear so when you got reeds at the side of the river or weed a sonar that's not our remit that's that's the bank search teams who search the banks to look down into the reeds and and you know there was nothing on the bottom and my team know me I'll find a needle in a stack and it's there was we went back bank over the data every day and got nothing there you know so but I won't talk about the general search because it's the wrong time to do it but yeah but see the April Jones one as well how hard does that April Jones was quite disturbing actually I mean I got called in again that was called in by the police on the database and to assist and I we didn't even charge them for that I said to him I can't charge you looking for a little girl this is like sickening and we flew up I flew the helicopter up there we use that and we went up and searched the river we got to I've never James I've never seen so many people there was thousands of public there was thou there was mountain rescue cave rescue voluntary lowland rescue everywhere all trying to get into mcunlith town hall in onto a sports centre to try and get briefings from the police the police were struggling to brief everybody so we just got on with our own search in the end we were tasked with the river we did that but he was another Bridger Mark Bridger he was another scum bag he was just a vile vile pedophile and I spoke to the psychologist once then said these people we said Peter they are waiting they're wound up and they just want to get their two minutes of sexual gratification and then they kill them and it's just when you think about that you just think this poor kid what she went through and and Bridger you know that's where I'm very pro death penalty you know if they if you kill a child you know or if you you you kill a child you need to be disposed of as long as it's 100% proven there's no there's no way that you didn't you did that they just need wiping out I mean because again Roy Whiting he he was a convicted pedophile he got released same old story got released on from his parole within two weeks he went and murdered Sarah Payne sick bastards I've had Sarah Sanzo and old man abused her sons she killed him she killed him but the thing is he abused kids got bail abused some more kids got bail again the sentences here are so lenient that I've been talking about this quite frequently in Russia death penalty yeah Australia take the passport driving license can't leave the country UK you can change your name for less than 20 quid you get bail for sexual crimes on kids you get bail for 100 mouth half a million images on a computer on the guy get community service that you it's clear that these people are fucked up in the head the only way to deal with them is put them on an island themselves like you death penalty you kill a kid you've got to die even raping a kid yep oh yeah that's there that kid is scarred for life that's a death penalty for them but yet you can roam the streets for after 12 months in prison it's not right man that you speak out about this shit and people say oh but you get people it's not been it's a wrong conviction we get it but like you say 100% proof that there's not there's obviously going to be evidence there's people get wrongly convicted we get it but when it comes to kids and rape the DN is there but probably 97% of the British public would like that they would like that sentence it's like if you stab somebody and murder them in cold blood at the moment well you know these people some are getting like six years not the police it's the it's the it's the judges giving them that time some judges will go you're not coming out but I mean like look at Lee Rigby and things like that terrorism stuff we we shoot the terrorist in London and straight away the police are giving him first aid you know it's just just shocking absolutely shocking so the amount of people go missing every year why is it when it's a certain one that hits world headlines like who picks and chooses who gets the media attention I don't know I really don't know James I think is she was a pretty foolish blonde lady probably and it stayed in the media didn't it there was once you get sky news and everybody out there she still wasn't found we turned up because it was starting to wane off the search I think and then we turned up and then obviously everyone's up there again and then everyone's starting to get excited that we're going to find her unfortunately we didn't and you know that's what I just wish we could have done I wish she was alive I wish that we were all wrong and wish she was just walked off somewhere and had an affair or whatever you know go run off run off somewhere but actually she didn't have you ever had that you've went to search for something they've actually just been away partying all the way just doing that thing no we haven't I've worked I've done a bit work on the Cory Cory McKee case McKee case the missing airman that was an interesting case that one we disappeared off the face of the earth but I think now mainly they're deceased when we're looking generally you know that's the problem once we get called once that person in water generally generally sometimes we're lucky we get stood down and we get a call from find rescue call us out sorry find rescue call us out and say we've got person in water and then we're halfway there in the trucks and then we get the page you're going off stand down they've just been recovered by firefighters or lowland rescue in the water which lucky enough see Madeline McCann case and stuff what do you think of this case that was a really odd one I don't know I mean I think the whole policing side over there they missed a lot obviously the Portuguese police probably missed a lot I was I had a couple of news news channels contact me and says can you go we pay you to go over there and do some so I just said no I don't want to I'm not interested in that as well because it's so yes there's I think that a couple oddballs personally but yeah there's something not right about it I've interviewed people who have lost kids all right ten years ago five years ago and they're fucking still destroyed they're dead themselves because of the pain in their face and I try and give him the benefit they do by being a doctor and maybe he's seen dead bodies maybe he's immune to it like yourself seen bodies all the time yet like but that's your kid that's your fucking kid there's something looks the way they were playing tennis two or three days later and I think that just didn't sit right for me and I don't have the answers because imagine they were innocent imagine somebody did come and kidnap the kid I personally don't think that's happened I believe the kid died in the flat with the information I have maybe being drugged or whatever but again it's he can't really I've got so much opinions and certain things but I could be wrong but if I'm wrong and I'm spreading false information as well do you know what I mean you got to go yeah like anything I say now everything is as soon as all this is really close every the youtubers and tick I'm on my name is on twitter tick tock every day and their hashtag pit of folding and I'm going leave me alone but they're just saying that and there's all these armchair detectives a lot of them have got some really good information to be fair a lot of them are coming up some interesting theories and when you look at it but I just keep out of it I mean I've got a I've got to stay clear until after the inquest that we know everything's conspiracy theory and everything's sexy if you think oh wait a minute that's there's more involved and it's yeah it's intriguing people throw their own spin yet but sometimes it's just listening to suicide or whatever yeah so you've been you go through all that though and you then what's the one case because obviously if you're doing them all the time I'd imagine it becomes a norm but what's the one case it sticks in your mind and you think you still get haunted by it I think they all you remember them all I think there's no no particular one that that haunts me I think Tobin was always just I never saw the victims but that's just to quite a when you realize that he was he there's so many other victims out there maybe but I think they're they're all bad I think the drowning still are the ones that probably haunt me more than anything I'm an interesting one in a garden in Boreham Wood and again Mark called me said Pete I've got a job for you and he said I'm going to send you some info really confidential information now it's all out it's going to court now and we got a guy who's gone missing he was about 90 years old son's suspicion of murder we're going to nick him and we're going to go and arrest him we want you to do a full forensic search of the house the loft everything and we're looking for a body so two weeks later we geared up police went in arrested the son on suspicion of murder I got on the radar anyway I've quickly run the radar over the patio while the team are setting up nothing under there nothing under there and I thought where am I going to start you will start place what's least overlooked from the neighbor because the neighbor was the nosy neighbor who said I believe that he's buried him in the garden and when it was reported to the police initially they said no he's gone to Poland and they went to the CID and then eventually she complained so much that actually the the serious crime director got involved and started looking into bank accounts the money and the son was paying hookers to come in on Friday nights with his dad's doll money dad had disappeared and she said I'm sure he's buried in the garden so anyway started using the radar looking around I found that straight away I found that it looked like he's buried a coffin so got friends of archaeologist Carl Carl Harrison Dr. Carl Harrison his team they dug it up they started dig dig dig and there's a huge box buried I'm thinking the guy is either a midget because the box was only so big or he's been dismembered always been completely folded in half and I'm thinking crikey I've only been here 10 minutes and I found it good good job so then Carl started opening the box and inside there was this dog wrapped plastic with a little rose on it and he perfectly buried the dog now that could have been a decoy because I was gone about decoys so you lift you lift the box out to make sure dad's not been buried under the box because the most people go oh it's only a buried dog fill it back in again always check everything so then I then started looking other parts the garden and there was three beehives over to one side no bees in it lucky enough that was the wrong time of year so take the beehives out and underneath to run the radar over and could be getting a big signal get my trowel out which I carry and I start scraping away three buried handguns and 200 rounds of ammunition most people going always a terrorist no dad was an ex-polish soldier so it's easy to jump to conclusions and then in the garage when we come there I found two pineapple hand grenades which have been deactivated anyway whilst I'm digging these stuff up to give to the police so I'm going grenades evacuate and I'm going I checked them early I'll make some sure they're dummies they're deactivate evacuate and I said I can tell you now they're deactivated evacuate so everyone's all outside the road they've put cordons around they've called the EOD in from did cop the army bomb disposal boys turn up sergeants walked in I said hi sarges I said do you want coffee I said there I've checked them earlier he walked straight over he said yeah you're right anyway that was that got back to work again the other stuff got taken away up in the thing someone shouted from the top bedroom grenades evacuate I'll go knock in exactly the bear in mind the team had already started driving back to did caught next to me you know they turn on the unmarked white truck and now I'm in the bedroom two more dummy grenades you know he was a sex soldier he was just connecting as mementos you know so anyway we we cracked on there got four days the SIO said I want the patio dug up I said he's not under the patio I want it dug up I said that's gonna take us about four days a big job I want it dug up okay we're digging up so everyone's please ask Kangoham has ripped the pattern nothing there he said right that's it he's not I want everyone wrapped up and leave the scene I said well I'm not gonna go until I'm not gonna put my name to this job until I've searched every inch of this garden I've got all this bit to do behind the greenhouse so well I'm off the weekend I'm doing a dancer and you know funny looks from the police officers going okay governor so he he drove off and then I got the radar and we moved this barrel and then went over the rear path I got a big reading I said to Chris oh that looks good give me the magnetometer so I went the magnetometer over there I said I think we might have found it anyway we lift the slabs up got the archaeologist dig down and dig down and it's actually in the book it's actually a big grave is actually in the book incredible anyway I found him and that's a great feeling when you when you actually do that and that's looking down into the grave that's me looking down into the grave I can't pronounce his name he was a Polish gentleman and so you just got to be determined you know so what's that feeling then when you when you find someone it's it well it's just is that a sense of relief or is that a sense of job done yeah it's essential relief and you well the rest of your family want to know where you know potentially dad is I mean he was 90 90 years old and you I always I go into so much detail I'd ask so many questions of people because I'm always suspicious of everyone and when I do these jobs I don't trust anybody I'm sort of and I keep asking lots of questions I was I was confident that he was there and obviously yes I went away and that to ring him he was halfway down the M M 40 whatever and yet to come back up again you've clearly got a gift for something it's like a yeah maybe a calling but you've got like a it's like a feeling yeah something's not right here like yeah do you feel like a sort of gift where you think where you can work on your feelings instead of actually using equipment do you feel that yeah I do no I do and that's what I'm doing with Marie McCourt Helen McCourt murder because the Sims is dead now he would never give up where she was but I can't use equipment in the woods I can't use ground radar because firstly it's 30 odd years ago and Marie the technology is lots of tree roots in the way but where I live on the farm I've got alpacas and when they die naturally I must say that when they die I bury them with the JCB and I teach forensic students about grave depressions so I've got a keen eye for finding graves so one of the one of the other ones which talk about in the books in the prologue actually is Kate Prout so Julia Merogna she was the senior investigating officer I was in London I got a call and Pete I've got a job for you urgent and I said what is it she I've got a misper we've balled the search up she said she was absolutely effing blind and it'd be down the phone and Julia's brilliant I've worked with her on so many cases because she used to be on the date the national database and said I need you down here like now I said I'm in London come in the morning okay so I flew the helicopter down they landed in the field she come and greeted me quick selfish you want to bother helicopter walked into the wood so right what have we got said the husband has admitted to the murder he said we got five pheasant pens he said he buried her in the pheasant in front of the pheasant pen okay where's the pheasant pens said they've been ripped up who dug them up they've been dismantled who done that the team on site and the archaeologists I said why are they digging over there and they were literally digging this whole area up and I said right all stop I need time so the SIO gets everybody stop work that's it and he got rid of everyone for the night everyone shut the site down it was guarded by a scene guard and I said like we got to go back to the beginning here right pheasant pens where are they so we walked over to the where the old pheasant pens were now bearing in mind that at ground radar that archaeologists who said there's no disturbed ground and I said well let's get the pheasant pens because he said but when he buried her he he put his jacket on the pheasant pen like this they're like corrugated iron forepost corrugated steel and he hung his jacket and put his torch up there so we could see what it's doing on a big farm that's where he buried her so we put the pheasant pens back together found the holes put them back exactly where they were not just the forepost not the tin just the four posts and we put them all in a line and I said right what we got to do is draw a semi-circle round in front of each one she'd be there but the archaeologists said they've searched it I said well sorry but that's what I'm telling you anyway so I said Chris get the metal detector and I had to go back because another urgent job to look at and I said Chris get the metal detector and I want you to go over this area with our powerful metal detector she's buried in a watch apparently still got a watch on and we may even pick her up but the thing is it was just like a sand material so you know it's like when you dig a sandcast or for your kids on the beach you've got a sandcast you've got a hole and as the side tide washes back in that sand just all joins back together again it's like no holes been there clay clay is totally different clay will just be lumps of clay and you get sticks buried and everything else so anyway I got a phone call from Chris he said we've got a following morning and the archaeologists dug her up and that's where she was and we got a reading from her watch and she still had a watch on her and it's just having that ability to go in take control of everything and then that she start asking questions because I've done so many of these you know I've done one in Ealing where the Met were searching for a body under a floor and I wasn't very popular with them for some I never met the person I weren't not going to name her but didn't want me there and I and the SO said I've asked Peter to come in and search that's what I want done we're looking for a body so we've done check the back garden found a buried hammer and crowbar and I said then I need to get under the bedroom floor I need to search this we've done it and I said well I need to do it she said we don't need SGI or Peter folding it thank you very much you can go we've searched it three times I said well I need that signed off anyway months later it went to court and the guy stole the man's identity I think it was a Brazilian guy it's in the book I can't remember his exact name now he buried the body under the floor in the soil under the floorboards and the police missed it I would have gone under the radar and I would have found him straight away probably wouldn't have even need the radar to be honest with you because I know the way ground settled this is what I study in my farm I got all that and I that's what I do not a smell after the body no it was well wrapped up the body was well wrapped up yeah it was all wrapped up there is if it's uncovered but it was wrapped up and it was completely wrapped in I think plastic but it was covered with soil so the soil contained the smell so it's different you know it's like the Mi6 spying the bag that was another one where's the worst place somebody's trying to hide the body where's the worst place trying to hide a body I think I think the one in Boreham Wood was a good one that was a clever one under the path no one would and we got think the dogs were there or weak people assumed that a dog will pick a body up the dog will pick a body up if it's got the scent of the body if it hasn't got the scent so in other words that's why the police probed the ground with a probe to release the scent to come to the surface so if I didn't have gone in with a radar he would never have been found he would never have been found and that's the thing with all this you've just got to be determined what makes a good search and rescue person what's the ingredients you need determination really and you've just got to be you've just got to go with your gut instinct sometimes you can have an old technology in the world but technology doesn't the technology we've got is really good kit I'm happy with what we've got but you've just got to be able to put the jigsaw puzzle together make lots of notes I mean I take a little notepad with me on thing and I always talk to the families because you might end up with a family being one of the suspects so you take it making notes in your background you walk off and you go that's an interesting thing he or she said there that doesn't quite stack up to me have you ever felt that when somebody's trying to throw you off and maybe let the son or the daughter is concerned about all the tears and it's fucking name it's buddy the body oh yeah we were on the bamboo bamboo bassoon case Carol DCI Caroline good she was old school cop she was brilliant and we went in we went into the I was searching and not far from here she near Voxel there was a the girl had been raped by the family the members and they murdered her because she was seeing a white guy or whatever and it was called an honor killing a so-called honor he was horrendous so we searched an old undertakers I remember being on the undertakers and in the back garden there was a big copper cart skit laying up on a trestle or rust in a wire I said just as a question anyone looked in that cart skit make sure she's not in there anyway we've done the radar we've done diving on it we've done all sorts and they were giving us abuse we were down the river and the family were just swearing and being vile towards us they really were a vile family and they all got convicted and jailed but the trouble is they'd probably be out in two or three years now they come out and they're released into the public again that honor killing stuff is mad especially in the UK I think they were setting someone on fire and burning them for weeks ago Nina abused by her father abused by her husband abused by her father-in-law and because she wasn't accepting the killer tried to kill her sister I think the father took the six-year-old daughter away because she went missing but the police don't do anything for the honor killings especially over there anyway maybe if it happens in the UK but the sentence is a lenient for that as well here why is it all murder? Yeah it's murder I mean we've got to get a grip of our sentence in over here because it would probably I don't know I'm not an expert on that but reduce if you said like if you said to a guy who stabs somebody you stab somebody you're going to get if they die you're going to get life if you stab somebody you likely get 10 years in jail it would focus your mind because you imagine you said you were a young herbal and you think if someone said to you stab this guy not that you would stab anyone but it's like you beat the crap out of this guy and this guy dies of head injuries or something like that you're going to get 25 years you'd think oh hang on a minute do I actually hit that bloke? Well Glasgow was the mother capital at Euro for a while but they brought the laws out in knife crime five years buying and it's kind of everything. Did they really? Yeah they changed the laws five years carrying a blade? Well that's what we need in here that's what we need we need to get a grip here because it's just people getting away with it it was in knife crimes in Glasgow and it was a mother capital Euro for a few years five years of carrying a blade buying changed and it was Glasgow's pretty safe place plan. I think national service because as you know in the book I speak about the time in the reserve parachute regiment and that was that was great grounding for me. How do you deal with it all now Peter just everything you've seen went through that because it's by the people I interview as well a question life a lot hell lot more because I know that shit that happens that you've worked both you've seen it I only hear the stories maybe affect me and in time I don't know we're hearing all of that stuff but you've seen it so how do you kind of balance the lifestyle with sitting in the garden with the kids to be then going digging up young girls and boys? I mean most of our work now is like I said it's people missing in water as well that's the volume we like I said every year there's a convey about a death going on and it's horrible I just have to switch off I've got a really good family behind me and I live on a farm my mom's in a cottage and I've got a loving family and we'll you know I go on holiday I have nice holidays that's why way of escapism you know we we fly after the Caribbean or whatever or next week I've got a trike and I'm actually working on another book at the moment last year I got a Harley Harley Davis a trike but I went to Italy last year for three weeks now my wife my wife's mom's got dementia unfortunately so thank you James and I couldn't get to Canada because I hadn't been vaccinated I never got vaccinated I ain't gonna get that and you can from the 11th but I couldn't get the states anyway she said why don't you because I was working on the book at the time why don't you just take your bike off for three weeks while we're away drive around Europe and work on your book I said you know what that'd be great so I got I got me Harley I loaded it all up I was going to go camping I thought you know what now I stay in hotels I can afford to so I'll do that I drove down through the wine regions and then I hit the Alps and I went through three days of snow it was horrendous and all these French people going by and I was on a trike in the snow you must be mad and I did and then I went down Saint-Tropez Monaco and I worked on the book and I got so much work done on it and that's what I'm doing next week I'm going to go out to Italy again take my wife out but we're going to do the lakes for I'm driving across to pick her up at Milan and then we're going to do the lakes for four days and then I'll come back over Switzerland it gives me time just to write thank you you've seen to have found the balance because you're not dead behind the eyes we're seeing all that dirt and that affects you maybe you're just solid enough where you just think fuck it get on with it because that's all you can do in life as well that who's really there do you know what I mean what can you really do if you're struggling with oh you can do just listen get on with it but I do think though if you haven't got a good family behind you that's when if I was alone if I was living on my own and I went home to an empty house at night and that's the people I sort of feel sorry for like you know when someone's been with a partner all them years and they've now left on the road that would be tough I wouldn't enjoy that I see it on the cover guys yeah girls a lot of you see them being divorced to three times I don't they drink yep and it's sad because of the dark that they see yeah for anybody that's watching Peter that's maybe late to go and paddle balls and jet skis that what advice would you have for them I would say anyone if you go near water wear a life jacket don't think if you think you go skiing we'll ski we wear a helmet now we wear a seat belt in a car we wear a cycle helmet on a push bike and it's just you cannot you will not swim in the sea for long if you've done a good swimmer you are if the sea gets choppy or you fall off your paddle board or your or your boat sinks or whatever you're going to die you're going to drown and that's fact and if you've got kids don't let them jump off bridges into what we've all done stupid things but it's all about showing off and every year we recover so many people from the water say on average 10 every year 2016 16 and 8 weeks and it's only when you see this so what I'm doing at the moment I'm working on a water safety video and I want to get that out free it's not a commercial venture it's just so it can be put out on tiktok and all the channels and that's not my field but it can be shared and shared and shared and people can either listen or they know but it's the adults when I deliver the life jackets the schools I say to the kids that mommy and daddy's got paddle boards and they go like this how many of them got life jackets one or two hands go up because they just buy these things and no one advised them and they just paddle out and there's so many deaths on them you know don't not do it just buy a 30 quid it's just not worth it like if you went home and put your kids in a life jacket but yourself because it's not cool not to wear one people think oh I don't want I'm well I don't want to go out there without a life jacket but we're the people and one quick one I was with a little lad a couple of years ago and we got caught to an instant late at night and his dad fell over the side of a boat and he was left in the middle of the river they're fishing floating until he got rescued and I said I need to speak to the son of God he got taken home that night it was 11 12 o'clock at night and we said look we're going to have to come back in the morning I need to get some a witness here because we we could end up getting a down river up river don't know where we're searching and I went over with a police officer spoke to the little lad said tell me where daddy fell in the river and he and I said I know it's difficult and he came over and he said he fell in there so when I got the team we got the sonar together and I knew straight away I'm going to find him and I told the sonar first sweep there is put the shot line in and I've got a beautiful sonar image of him on the bottom so we put the line down so that my diver can then go down and then I had to go and tell the family and I thought it's only right that I go and talk to the family so I went over and I remember speaking to mum and the wife of his mum and wife and I went over to him so I've got some bad news that we've located him and two of these mum and daughter and the wife sorry just collapsed literally in front of me and all the friends grabbed him I was with a police officer and I just had to do a U-turn tears running down my eyes and I just walked up and it's just so difficult and it's just it's only when you see these people and you see these people drowned and they're staring at you and that's why I'm so passionate about water safety and I know a drone on about it sometimes but it's only when you actually see them that you've got to do something. Do you somebody buries a body like after 10-15 years like how low would it go? How deep? Or could it start with the roots and stuff like how the body won't go any deeper but there was one interesting one on the moors murderer so I didn't work on but that was Professor John Hunter and apparently the peat bog moves so the body can sort of go deeper and deeper and deeper. In clay they don't go anywhere they'll decompose and they'll be skeleton eventually found unless they've been wrapped in plastic and if they've been wrapped in plastic and they're the air can't get to them then they tend to be found better. What's the worst thing of a body you've found? Fished a guy out, weeded my team and I was on the boat actually so we'd been looking for him for a while but it was in flooded river and then one day it was he got lodged somewhere and then we found a canoeist was going by and there was a pair of feet hanging out the water so we got there and it was really quite a fast current so we had to anchor more of the boats up with lines, put the diver over in quite a heavy current and he recovered and we put Vic on our nose so we can't smell and this guy was just, he was twice the normal size of himself. He was just bloated like a bloated seal and it was just horrendous, his face was all eaten and it was just like and you're just trying to not breathe through your nose, you're trying to hold your nose without holding it but you've got that and then the divers in the water actually got his arm around him and then of course diver has to come out, that's tough for the diver, then the divers all hosed down with disinfectant and the fire brigade were with us as well, you know firefighters. That's a tough fucking job Batman. I've got to play with you, nothing but respect for you Peter genuinely. Thank you Jones. Do you ever walk in the streets and get a smell sometimes that takes place? Do you ever get that? It's not as if they're dead bodies out there but do you ever get a smell when it takes you back in the kingdom before it's your day off? That doesn't but I walk in the country and if I walk through the woods and I will smell death straight away of a decomposing animal and I will pick it up and I'll go and check that it's not human being. It's a bit weird because you sort of, you just smell it, I walk down a footpath, I go hang on a minute, I'll say just a minute because I run a bit you know and I go something's not right here and I go and have a poke around the bushes and I'll follow my nose to the scent and there'll be a dead rabbit in the fox. It's just the way it is. You're gifted Peter, you're gifted for that. Do you think running kingdom not saves you but your kingdom keeps you sane? I think yeah, I walk every day with my dogs. I do about three, probably three miles. What dogs you've got? I've got a German Shepherd, I've got a Malamute, Cross German Shepherd, Portuguese water dog and my mum's got a little Yorkshire terrorist. Yeah, I've got a lot of wheeler. Yeah, oh wow. So they're great, they're great. My dogs are, the dogs are like, they're your best friends aren't they? I've got American bullies in that as well, my sister, I love dogs, that's what I'm all about. That's where I find mappies, just being with my dogs. I've got kids and messies and dogs, but the dogs is where I feel my happy. Well, it was one sad the other week, obviously quick but we've done a really sad job the other week. There was a lady who got eaten, well, mauled by dogs in Belgium in Surrey and it was all over the news and she was attacked by, she was out and there was some horses, there was a bit of an altercation and she got chased by one of those seven dogs. She was a dog walker. They're not her dogs, but she had seven dogs and one turned on her and a thing and the police obviously had to take all the dogs into custody and I had to go and recover the evidence and she was down a really steep bank so the fiber gate couldn't recover. I thought we were going to be hanging and we had to go and recover the body of the lady unfortunately and then I had to find the evidence because we had missing bits and pieces to find. So that was particularly horrible, but also I felt so much for the dogs because if the dogs get destroyed, it's proving which dog done it and there was seven little dogs, seven dogs who belonged to somebody and that's tough. One was a big bull mastiff I think but the others were other types of dogs and I just thought how are we going to prove because I did DNA on the dogs? Where they did the scenes of crimes were really good, they done the DNA swaps of the wounds, they done that of the dogs and they done DNA tests and it was a pretty harrowing job to be honest. Eating to death by the dog? Not eating but badly bitten, yeah. Badly bitten, yeah. The only one dog that done it? Not sure, not sure, but it was down a very very steep bank so it was a very difficult one to get to. I was speaking to a man who trains dogs, used to train dogs for a place, he says if your dog loves you but he says if you die your dog can eat you? Yeah, probably. He's hungry. The dogs will always often stay with their owner, like I said the lad in the river that day. The dogs are amazing. He was amazing and he was just literally crying by the river and he pinpointed it exactly for us and I said put the diver in exactly here, he's probably there. Seeing the metcorpals shot two dogs man, for me it's disgusting I don't know the full ends and outs of the story but they had standing with two dogs and they're shouting you're going to upset the dog straight away what can you do in that situation? I saw that yesterday, I was quite shocking actually the amount of people there and I said I don't know the circumstances so it would be easier to criticise from a distance but I think all the shouting and the screaming doesn't help anybody, it's like trying to be calm, it's like we do our job, we go in, we're just calm and do our job, we're not shouting around, we just get on with the job, go in and leave quietly, it's a very difficult one. How do you feel telling your story to the deputy? Oh James, it's different because you do the odd media interview and you know what it's like nothing against the media, they cut the piece they want so you might only get two minutes of your story and I think all the people who doubted me recently on my experience and all I'd say is if you doubt me in my experience, read the book, listen to the audio book and it's got some great reviews and it's doing well because it does take you right and it talks about protest and it talks about and then goes into the crime stuff it's a bit monologue but it's been really great to come on That's an unbelievable bit of massive respect, I'm on that quarter way through the audio book, it's unbelievable what you're doing should be proud your father would be proud, no doubt about that. My dad passed away in 2013 and that, thank you James and that's if dad could see what we've achieved now, I think that will be, we are the like real Thunderbirds you know, so it's quite an interesting thing and last week we had the Lord Lieutenant come down of Surrey, which is quite, that's the king's representative for Surrey come down to see us which is pretty cool actually, quite special. And your dad like I said taking you under his wing and showing you a life that we kids should be just, an element of danger but a lot of love and fun. And I say yeah, if people are listening, get your kids outside don't take the iPads away, take the phones away because I get in at night and I throw my phone on the side, I don't sit and look at social media I post for social media about our work but I don't go oh I've got 10 likes I'm not interested, I don't care who likes my posts and I don't get time to reply people leave nice comments but I haven't got time to start going through all this stuff it's just I'm busy with the company, I've got 54 staff, I've got a lot of staff work for me so it's a busy time. Hopefully no doubt about has to but if anybody needs your help, how did it get involved? If they need help and they've got missing loved one and the police can't find them or whatever just call the office on 01306889969 we're manned 24-7, the control room if you look at our Facebook, Specialist Group International, my Facebook, Peter Folding and it's really, it's ringing up because we might not, I haven't got time to go start going through social media messages and things like that I'm helping a couple of families in Scotland at the moment the ladies advice over the phone, the ladies mum went in the river another one missing up on a lock so just giving them phone advice it's mad because I watched a documentary Spenser Matthew, the boys name I was made in Chelsea he's in reality, kind of a star but his brother done not Ben Nevis, what's the smallest mountain in the world? Oh Everest and his brother passed away there 15 years ago fell but they took a rescue team out, they never found them but they found other bodies and they took the bodies to the families because even though they died it's not a case of people rescuing the bodies because it costs so much to go there and find the bodies it's not a case of bringing the bodies back to the family so they couldn't find the brother but they done an amazing thing and took the body back to one of their brothers and I think it was maybe like 10 or whatever that's pretty special so it was quite hard to document a powerful man, I don't have to watch that, yeah you'll like it so it's mad that bodies can't be left there for 10, 20, 30 years and they were going by the jacket but the colouring would have wore off with the make of the boot which was in the 90s or something they never ever found them because obviously the snow, the mountains and the temperature but it's fascinating stuff what you people do man unbelievable that people can get an understanding of the shit that you have to go through, the abuse that you have to take and you're out there trying your hardest to try and give peace to some families and some kind of closure whether it's a kid who died 20 years ago and that's the mad thing that you're giving closure to people who can kind of they'll never ever move on but it gives them some sort of peace that okay I've got my son or my daughter back, yeah absolutely Joan, no we do the best we can but I must say I've got a great team around me who I work with so they're there, they're on call 24-7 and we're there, we never know when we're going to get called yeah fair play, yeah would you like to finish up on anything Peter? I'd just like to say keep up the good work what you're doing but no thanks for just a nice relaxing chat, it's good to be able to just talk normally and have a laugh you know as well because whenever I talk I'm always the grim reaper it's all about you know dying and every dragging people out of rivers which is obviously you know there's a lot of gallows humour goes on because you have to if not you just crack up then buy it on Waterstones, all good book shops you can get it ordered and also it's available on Audible it's 8 hours and 15 minutes on Audible, it's read by Simon Darwin who's the narrator I couldn't narrate it, he's got the gift he's an actor so he narrated it and it's on say Amazon anyway, on Audible Amazon, Kindle, it's all there and yeah hopefully you enjoy it I'll leave the link in the description Peter, a lesson for normal what you're doing thank you very much, cheers guys, thanks a lot, take care cheers guys