 I'm clicking on my, there it is. Nope, nope. Oh, there you go. Hi, hi, hi. Hey, Lolly, welcome back. Thank you so much. I missed y'all. Yeah, you were, you're working, you're doing five jobs now. I am. We're making it work. We're pleased, we're pleased to have you. So this is Wash Me Work and we get together pretty much every week and we work together and then we talk with you about your work and your creative process. I'm SLP. We've been doing this show for about, you know, I don't know, forever. No, about 14 years. We started in the lobby of the Public Theater and since COVID shut down, we moved to Zoom and where we were happy and where we are very grateful to the Public Theater and HowlRound for hosting us and helping us organize all this, especially folks like Lolly who help us figure it all out every week. What we're going to do is we're going to work together and then I'm going to take questions about your work and your creative process while we don't have the bandwidth to have you, you know, show us your work or read from your work or anything like that. We do have plenty of time to talk about process and if you want to have, if you have a question about your creative process, please, Lolly is going to tell you how to get in touch, go a lot. Thank you. So if you're here in Zoom with us, you can ask a question by using the raise your hand function. It should be in the reactions tab, which is likely at the bottom of your screen, but if you have any trouble finding it, you can just let me know in the chat and I'll help you out. Or if you're watching live with us on HowlRound, you can ask us questions via the Public Theater's Twitter or Instagram accounts or via the Watch Me Work Twitter account, which is at Watch Me Work SLP with the hashtag HowlRound, that's hashtag H-O-W-L-R-O-U-N-D. Fantastic. Okay. I have my timer. Here it is. We're getting ready to go. Boom. Yay. Okay. It's that time we've been working for 20 minutes and now we can take questions about your work and your creative process. If you have a question, let us know. Looks like we have a question from Charlie. You should be able to unmute now. Charlie, how you doing? Good. Sorry to ask another question. I'm happy for other people to jump in, but it's kind of quiet out there. Boy, so many questions. Let's start with this one. How much do you know about your characters when you start a project? Great question. Great question. How much does one need to know about one's characters, right? It depends on, you know, if you have an idea of their name, if you have an idea of maybe what they're up to, i.e. why you're interested in them or why they're, you know, say, come here, I have to tell you a story, you know, or I'm in the middle of something. I want you to watch and write about it. Then that's enough to go on. I don't think one has to do extensive character biographies to get started, but if you feel more comfortable doing those than do them, in my experience, you find out a lot about the characters by writing or, you know, it's like a portrait. You know, you have an idea of what you're gonna paint and you start painting, you find out so much more about it by doing it. Who said that? I know by going where I have to go. You know, so if you feel comfortable getting a whole big 20-page biography or one sheet of biography, that's great. If you know their name and what they're about, that might also be good enough. So that makes sense. It depends on what you need. Yeah, sort of curious outworks for you. I've played with it both ways, yeah. No, but this is, you know, oh, maybe I didn't say that this week. So watch me work. Yeah, the title is misleading. It's about your work and your creative process. So when you ask me a question, I tend to make it about you. Fair enough. Fair enough. Not trying to probe, just, you know. Because I mean, honestly, you know, everybody knows I've been, you know, writing plays for over 40 years and novels and short stories and screenplays and poems and songs and everything. And I, sometimes I know everything about the characters sometimes I just know their name. So it's really whatever, whatever, whatever. And I'm interested in what might work for, you know, what works for me on Tuesday might not work for me on a Friday. Yeah, I mean, I def, a recent project, spent a lot of time working up background ideas or whatever. But then as the piece proceeded and it got revised, it's like, oh no, that's not true. That, you know, that's not who I thought this was, that kind of thing. Exactly. Which was fun, but also like maybe step back and say, maybe not be so analytical going in. Exactly, exactly. But then some people, they need that guide rope. And so, you know, then go ahead and make it. And yeah, so it's really what you need. I try and once, you know, you're writing a character biography, it's your one page and you're like, okay, okay, okay. I'm good. Then go for it. Then start writing, you know. Yeah. It's like we're talking to somebody a couple of weeks ago, it's rule of thumb, how does it make you feel? How do you feel about it? If you're feeling good, you know, great. If it sounds like it's just an exercise, it feels like it's just an exercise, then cut to the chase and start writing. But is there an argument to sometimes dive in when it doesn't feel good? No? Sure, sure, sure, sure. For example, if you're writing a work for hire, you know, you're working for producers or, you know, did you mention you had a writing partner on a... I did, yeah, I'm sorry. Okay, so maybe you guys have different temperaments and they say, hey, you know, enough of this character biography. We've already got, you know, 80 pages, you know, let's start and you say it doesn't feel good. Well, you might want to give it a try. If you're in a writing program and you have something due soon and you feel like you've been spending too much time on the background stuff. I've also had times when it's like, it doesn't feel good until I'm into it. It's like, I'm holding back. Let's just start putting stuff on the page and then the light, you know, the clouds part and things start to happen, yeah. Exactly, exactly, exactly. So, like you said, you got to try different things. You know, you have to be flexible enough to try different things. Thank you, Charlie. Thank you. Looks like we have a question from Chilly. Yeah. Hello. Hey, Chilly. Hey, yeah, got blue hair this weekend. I'm in New York now. Yeah, I'm usually in Vegas when I call in. So this question is about like theme, theatrical elements and action. So I'm, one thing that is really effective in plays and I'm loving is just actions and theatrical elements that tie into theme. And so I kind of find, I'm struggling with this chicken or egg argument, like does the theme come first or does the story come first and then you discover the theme and I've been reading a lot about it and talking to a lot of people and getting conflicting answers, I guess. And so I think I'm struggling with it because I know my theme and so now it's about what theatrical elements can I put in play or what actions or things can I have characters teach each other that speak to that theme. And I just wanna know if you've had any guidance there on how to sort through those waters. So we'll use what we spoke with Charlie about. How do you feel? Does it feel good the way you're doing it? No, I feel kind of all over the place. Some things feel good. So I think some things feel good as in just I'll free write and then go back and look and see like I'll just go in like, I'm discovering myself and I'm like, oh, what did I write or what are these characters saying and take my writer's hat off to sort of be an investigator of what was said. But so that works, but it feels like a very messy process. So maybe that's just what it is. And maybe there's no, maybe there's not a cleaner way. All right, so I'm clear about what you mean because I'm not entirely sure. Theme, when you say theme, you mean like what the work is about? What do you mean by theme? Yeah, is when I say theme, I mean, what is the work about the premise? The question that I'm putting out that I'm not necessarily, I don't necessarily have an answer for, but the question or the C kernel that gets me telling the story and what I'm exploring. Okay, and when you say theatrical elements, what do you mean? I mean, things like a prop that represents something that ties into the theme or like a light, like a specific lighting cue or a specific action. And I just wonder from a writer's perspective, are those things that you consciously put into the piece or are those things that people discovered later? Right, okay, great. Okay, let's see how to answer this. That's a great question. It's a very specific way of creating something, say a play or a screenplay or a novel or whatever, a story, it's not how I go about creating things at all. If anyone asks me what's the theme to fill in the blank something I've written, I go, I don't know, I have no interest in theme. And the things that we find in say a play that I've written or a novel or whatever are very carefully chosen, but not because of the theatrical resonance. If I told you a story of say Hansel and Gretel, I'm telling you a story. I'm really interested in a story. Tell me a story. The way that maybe your mom, dad, auntie, grandma, primary caregiver, favorite babysitter told you. Once upon a time there was a young woman and she had really long toes. It's a story. So I come to it from story, from character, from what's going on, what am I seeing? So it's more of a, Jillian, it's more like I have, I put all my faith in the power of the story. And I'm more interested in the power of the story than I am in the analytical prowess of somebody who will come and read it later. Okay, got it. Yeah, no, that resonates and feels right. I think where I get tied in is when you join writer groups or you're in circles or people are reading your work, there's often the question of like, well, what's the theme? What's the theme? How is this tied to theme? What's the theme? And I'm just, there's part of me that feels like that's not my business. But that's not always a well-received answer. So I wanted to kind of just bring that here. So it's... Yeah, and that's, you know, if a certain group of writers or group of artists create in a certain way and they have been taught or they have learned on their own or they have picked up the habit of asking certain kinds of questions about work and you come in there and you don't work that way, then you're the only one out and you're thought of as, you know, wrong in some way. And I would say that, you know, I mean, I really cherish scholars, you know, or critics or dramaturgs or, you know, artistic directors who are super smart and say, hey, this is about, you know, and they're figuring it out or producers and they're figuring out the marketing people. Oh my God, the way they can frame stuff and excite audiences, which is amazing. And it's a whole big talent and a skill and all that. Yeah, so you have a marketing meeting and they ask you about what's it about? What's the story? What's the theme? When it's written. And what? I, while I can respect that way of creating because people do it, you know? It's not something I don't create that way. And I find that if you, you know, so I'm gonna put a water bottle on the table in act two and that's gonna signify that, you know, the drought, the desert of their relationship and how they need water, that's all you're gonna get. Yeah, that's all you put it. You're gonna put it in there. It's gonna mean something. The audience can get that meaning that you put in there and hooray. And the audience says, yeah, I understand. I got it. I'm gonna put it in the club instead of rich storytelling where there's a whole lot going on. There's 500 ways to understand, to get Hamlet, right? Yeah. You know? And I don't know how Shakespeare constructed it, but it seems more from a very strong storytelling, a foundation of strong storytelling. Yeah. Okay. Thank you. That was very helpful. It's not a story. Imagine you're, you know, five years old and Jillian, I'm gonna tell you a story. Once was a person named, you know, your main character. They were interested in da-da-da-da and then they did that. And then they met a, wow, that's interesting. You know what I'm saying? Oh, you're so wonderful. A good story. Okay. Okay. Thank you. You're welcome. Great question. Really great question. Thank you. Thank you. Aiden. So this is kind of building off the question that was just asked. But if you're starting writing a piece and you're only focusing on story, kind of rather than the themes and ideas of the piece, how do you know that your story is going to resonate and matter kind of once it is finally constructed? Just because I feel like if I have the platform or a voice to kind of share my work with people, I wanna make sure that I am talking about something that matters and I am saying something that's important. And so I worry that like going in with like just the story lens that I'm gonna kind of end up with a story that can be nice but that doesn't really, isn't really gonna make the impact or change that I want. Great question, Aiden. And this is going out on a limb here or maybe not, maybe going into a whole tree. Maybe it's a whole tree, it's not just a limb. I feel, this is again, this is just my opinion. This is so my opinion. If it matters to you, Aiden, then I wanna hear that story. Every story that is told doesn't resonate with everybody. There are writers these days going, they ask me, SLP, what trends should I write about? Because maybe, oh, I don't know, this summer pink was really in and so should I write a story about the color pink? You know what I'm saying? I wanna hear what's interesting to you. If you write it deeply and with feeling, if you tell me a good story, maybe it's not gonna resonate with every single person in the world, but it will resonate with somebody else. And that's the artistic chance that you have to embrace. If it's meaningful to you, you as a human being, it will be meaningful to somebody else. And if it's not meaningful to anybody else, at least you've written something that's meaningful to you. And that's the game we're playing here. That's the arts, you know what I mean? Or if you speak your truth, it's gonna resonate with somebody else. Does that, yeah, so does that make, I'm sorry, you're muted, but I think I see your mouth moving. You should be able to- Sorry, I muted myself and then it wouldn't let me. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense, thank you so much. Yeah, yeah, and not to worry about, I have to write something that's topical. I mean, let, maybe we look in online magazines or whatever and they tell us that, this summer, this kind of dress is in and so we have to buy that dress, but the arts are, it's a different kind of game. Right, thank you so much. You're welcome, great question. Questions today, y'all. Thank you, Aiden, Louise. Hey, Louise. Okay, I'm following up on the first two ladies and it's just a question. I know this is watching work and it's about our work, not about your work per se, but what comes to mind is, so the works that you've created, you've created them, they're out in the world, they're done. Do you, as a playwright, revisit in your head completed works, not revisit in the same, in the sense that, oh, I'm gonna go back and change it, but do you find new discoveries in what you've created? That's a great question, Louise. Do I find new discoveries? I think people who produce the work find new discoveries because they're bringing themselves to the work. I don't necessarily find things because I am not looking at them. Do you know what I'm saying? I mean, maybe in a rare case, but usually when a work is done and produced and it was 20 years ago or 30 years ago, whatever, I'm not really thinking about it. I'm letting it go. I did the catch and release. I catch, I give it my best, I let it go, let it out into the world. If there's a, like the Broadway Revival top dog I was involved in, of course, we discovered things and it was beautiful. There's a play that I wrote in 1990 and I was joking around with a friend repeating some of the lines, we were repeating some of the lines and I said, oh, now I finally understand what that means. So there are rare occasions where that kind of thing happens. I might go, oh, that's what that means. I thought it, I never really thought about it. Now I realize that it means that, you know? The line from Death of the Last Black Man and the whole entire world, aka the Negro Book of the Dead, the line is you should write it down, you should hide it under a rock. And I was like, oh, now I get it. You know, I wrote the play in 1990. So there's plenty of room for discovery, but I'm not, you know, going over old texts. And no, I was curious. But people do, people write me all the time and come up to me all the time and say, oh my gosh, you know what I realized about? I'm not like, oh, that's amazing. It's cool. Thank you. Thank you. What about you, Louise? Do you have when you, things that you've written in the past and you might go back and look at them or a friend might discuss them with you, do you find that, wow, I never thought of it that way. Do you find revelation to be had? Well, just very briefly, my case is a little bit different because I do short experimental films. And so when I do a film and it's just like done and it's just like whatever, you know, it's just kind of done. And it's like whatever, if you like it, you see something in it, then good. So I don't really be visit per se, but you may go back and see, oh, you saw that. Oh, okay, okay, okay. So I was just curious. But let me just say that I've been doing my short films. I've been writing, but what this, like I say, they're pearls of wisdom from you and the group. And what has helped me is when you had mentioned, just give yourself over to the work and it will reward you. Because I, like everybody else, I have a lot of stuff going on. But what I find is, if you devote just a little bit of time, a little bit of time every day, then it kind of, the work catches up to you. The work catches up to you and it supports what you're doing in the process. That's what my experience has been. Yes, ma'am. Yes, well said. Thank you for saying that, Louise. Thank you for reminding us all. That's really, really smart. Thank you, sister. Thanks, Louise. Next up. Okay. Okay, wait, hold on. Let me, can you unmute? Are you good? Yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm good. Well, I don't know how to actually put this question, but I'm just wondering, you know, how much to reveal in writing because I go through a lot of things with my family. And some of the things that have been said today really hit on, it just makes me think even more about the questions I have about writing and sharing things with the public. So basically, I'm very different from the rest of my family. You know, and the things that I want to write about, and I do write about them, but I don't share them, but then when I mention them to very close friends, they'll say, oh, that's not so, they say I have that same experience with my family. So it makes me wonder about actually sharing the things that I go through, have gone through, go through, and the things that are out there, and whether or not to write it and share it. I don't know if that's clear or not. It's a great question, Jay, and can I call you, Jay? Do you? Oh, yeah, no, no, that's fine. Okay, great. Okay, it's a great question. And to, in varying degrees, you know, we all, when we're creating something, go through something like that. If you're very different from your family and they are perhaps not very accepting of the way you are in your authentic life, then it's even a bigger barrier. And to your point, you said, should I even write them? Well, of course, and you are writing them. It sounds like you're doing the work, which is really, really great. Should you share it? There are a couple of ways you know that you can share it. You can share it under a different name. You can share it and if your concern is that you might, I don't know, create some kind of a riff, you know, in your family fabric that you don't want to do, then you might find ways in like under a pseudonym to share it. That's done a lot. And they're wonderful online places too. There's Medium, there's Substack. There's a couple of other places where you can submit. It's not like you have to go into a publisher and get it published like in the olden days, you know? So I would say if you feel the need to share it, then definitely find a way. You will find a way to share it if you use a different name other than your own or other than the name that your family knows you by. And on a platform that is more anonymous, you could say. And you can still gain a following and make money. Those kinds of things can happen. Yeah, that's really helpful. It would be even more helpful if you could put that in the, if you could write that down so that I can copy it because I don't remember, you know. I'll give you two words. One is called Medium, like Medium. The other is called, thank you Lolly. And the other is called Substack. And those are just two, you know, those are just two places online where people publish things. I mean, there are also articles, you know, on any of these online publications, Slate, Salon, HuffPost, you know, First Person Personal. You have a lot of places that are accepting works of writing by folks telling their stories, that kind of thing. But Medium and Substack are kind of fun. I mean, I think the conflict is that I'm a, one I'm an artist, but not at all. They're totally different careers. Two, I went to Smith, which I know you understand having gone to Holyoke. Right. And so it's just a real difference there. And so I've always been different. And now it's, the older I get, the more it just comes out. And I just want to shout, you know, because they're so differently. They just think that I'm just, you know, doing what, but I don't understand that I am who I am. And those are the things that are of interest of me and other people. I just want to, I just want to scream all the time. No, really scream and print. It's a great, it's a great view. And check out Medium and Substack and see if you like those kinds of things that you're reading on there. It's a great way to get your voice heard. Really great. Thank you so much. You're welcome. Thank you, Jay. We have MC up here. Hi, MC. Hey, you're back home? Yes, yes. It was a hard landing, you know, when you're in a magical land. Yes. But yeah, my question is about deadlines. Yeah. Six months ago in this, I said, we were talking about game plan, you know, and so I made that sticker, you know, game plan and I committed sort of in this, one of our Watch Me Works that I would have my shitty first draft done in six months. And so it's coming down to that time. And I'm not there with there's a lot of shitty going on but there's no the end yet. And part of it is that I put this just like you encourage, put this where I can see it game plan deadline every day. And I put it there. And then I sort of stopped looking at it because my characters that I was pretty confident I could get to the end of a story. They just stopped talking to me. And, you know, these other crazy characters started coming into my life like, you know, the last Empress and stuff. So I went on, I veered into that direction. And so going in this new direction which brings me more joy and ease than the other characters who just, you know but I'm committed to them because I want to get the story of my other people, Leo and Buddy out but they weren't bringing joy. And they weren't, so I know I have a question in here. And it's about, how do I get to it? How do I, I need, I just need some cheerleading to get to the deadline for one of these, some of these characters. Joy is a funny thing. Joy is a funny thing. And when we associate joy with the artistic process I mean, it's, let's see, let me be tacky. I'll be tacky. It's not like making love. Making love is supposed to feel good, right? You're supposed to feel good. Work doesn't always feel good. Work, the creative process doesn't always feel good. And you can't judge it. Oh, it's great because it feels good. It's not like, you know, kissing and hugging on your sweetie. You know what I'm saying? You know, on your intended. It, sometimes it feels good. Sometimes it doesn't. Yeah, you know, like, like Gypsy Rosely said, you got to take the rough for the smooth, you know? So, and I wonder, you know, you have a new character come up and the last Empress and they're fabulous and wonderful. And does it feel good because it's new? Is that you still in the honeymoon stage, you know? And your other characters might, it might be a little rough because you're, you know, in your seventh year of that relationship, you know, I'm just mixing all my metaphors all over here. But you see what I mean? So, if you, how close are you to the deadline? I'm about three weeks away. Okay, three weeks away in time. And how, okay. And how, how many pages do you have to write of the initial thing to make the deadline? It's not a, it's more of a chapter thing. I think I'm, I had my characters, the initial, the seven-year-age ones, they've reached the climax. So now I'm just sort of writing towards the end, to the end. So I'd say it's another 80 pages, 50, no, 50 pages. Great. Okay, great. Great. So MC, let's do some math. Let's make it about math and not about inspiration. You got 50 pages. You got three weeks. Anybody know what that is? Three weeks or what? Three, that's 24 days, right? Ooh, 24 days. Okay, that's almost 25 days, right? So let's just say it's 24 days. Can you write two pages a day? Yes, I can write two pages a day. Great. But. Because what you're teaching yourself, MC, is you're teaching yourself to finish. Just a skill. You're teaching yourself to finish. You're teaching yourself about commitment. You're teaching yourself to finish. And again, different people say different things. I'm not saying they're wrong and I'm right or whatever. This is what I do. If I'm running the marathon and I'm on mile 20, I've trained for a marathon, I never run a marathon. But if I were on mile 20 and I felt like, shit, what am I gonna do? Stop and get on a bicycle and go get some ice cream? No, you're gonna go. You're gonna throw yourself across the finish line because you're teaching yourself to finish. And you're teaching yourself to show up for yourself and you're teaching yourself that you can keep going even when it's not good. This does not apply to dating. I mean, you know what I'm saying? I mean, if you're in an abusive relationship, this is not what we're talking about. I love making and all that. I'm saying when you're writing, there are gonna be a lot of days where it just doesn't feel good. And there're gonna be days where it feels glorious. You know? And there're gonna be days that you, yeah, I know the story. And there're gonna be days that like, I don't know what I'm doing. And you gotta keep showing up. Every artist I know who I admire, you know, in the past and colleagues and stuff. We have to train. That's part of the training. That's part of the discipline. So all you need to do, MC, is two pages a day. That's all you need to do. When's your writing time? In the morning? You like writing in the morning? Great. Get up in the morning. What's two pages? What is it? Like a thousand words? I don't know. Is that like a thousand? Okay, boom. You got two pages, double spaced, right? 12 point. Two pages a day. Just throw yourself across the finish line. Get done. And then you go like, at least, and you can write on the last empress. You can work on that novel or store whatever it is. You can also work on that. You have plenty of time during the day. Yeah, I do. Okay, I just gotta stick to it. Thank you. Promise to myself. Keep the promise to yourself. Or better or for worse. This is the valley of the shadow of yucky writing. Man. Thank you. I've been there. Look to your left. Look to your right. Look ahead of you. Look behind you. It's populated with all kinds of artists. We're all trudging along on any given day. You're not alone. All right. Oh, thank you for not feel so alone. Yeah. Oh, you're right. You're right. I had a shitty morning this morning. I was like, what the fuck? I'll be back there tomorrow. Yeah. Is that the only way I know how to get anything done? If I keep abandoning projects, then I'm gonna have a whole bunch of things that I didn't finish instead of a whole bunch of books on my shelf that I wrote. And if you write a shitty draft, you're giving yourself a chance to make it better. If you don't write a draft at all, there's no way you're gonna make it better. Right? You gotta rewriting is a wonderful thing, you know? Okay. Great. Thank you. Thanks, everyone. Thank you. Thanks, MC. Is it, I have, we have, I'm gonna try this thing again, this suggestion for your digestion, AKA the watch me work tip of the week. And I'm gonna repeat something that I said a couple of weeks ago. Again, we talked about the fact that you have a choice and you have a chance, right? You have a chance to do your work. And so make the choice to do your work. And I wanna lift up and honor the name, the person, a guy called Nathan Lewis Jackson, who is an amazing writer. Amazing playwright. He wrote plays like Brocology, which was at Lincoln Center. He's a Juilliard grad. He's a wonderful, righteous brother, kind, brilliant soul. I worked together with him on doing a TV show, Genius Laritha. He passed away recently, young brother, okay? So if you're lucky enough to have the opportunity to do your work, if you're lucky enough to have the opportunity to pursue your heart's desire or follow your bliss or your dream thing, right? Writing that novel, that play, that short story, that film, whatever, take the chance, make the choice, do the work so that we can know you so that you can sing your song, right? So I'm just sending some love out to Nathan Lewis Jackson. And all of you, and all of you, okay? It's almost six o'clock. It's almost six o'clock. We need to connect about dates and we will get back to everyone to look on the public theater and how around websites for our next set of Watch Me Work dates. And we'll see you all very soon. Thank you, thank you. Have a great week. We'll see you again. Bye.