 Welcome to the drum history podcast. I'm your host Bart van der Zee and today I'm joined by Dr. Christian vote Vega Berg who is a director for a STEM program independent writer and obviously as a doctor a PhD recipient Christian welcome to the show. Hi Bart. It's a good time to be here. I love having non-drummer guests on the show because I think you bring a really interesting perspective and Today's topic is really cool because it's the scientific reason why humans love drumming And I know my listeners will love it because maybe we don't know why we love We do so all right, obviously you've got a very You know an impressive career here as a writer and all this stuff and and I want to mention upfront that I found this article It's it's on massive science, which is massive sigh calm and interestingly enough My brother-in-law Zach Horne sent it to me also not a drummer I think he was on a like a football website and they like link to non football things and boom You came up a lot of times my articles pop up in the strangest of places But that's one of the fun things about the written word is you never know due to our algorithms online What's gonna pop up next, you know for all you know You're on Amazon and because you clicked on one thing now you're being given an article about Marie Antoinette, you know You know what's gonna happen that exactly all right jumping in here Why don't we start at the top and go back as far as we can and you can kind of just tell us? Why do we love drums the way that we do? So I'm gonna start off with addressing the science that we're going to be going through So a lot of times we think science we think like very heavy. This is about chemistry It's about numbers as physics. This is going to be a lot more about both behavior and a big focus on anthropology as well which is the study of humanity and In this case we're talking a little bit about primates at first. So a little bit of my background I'm a I'm a fellow for the society for applied anthropology. I've worked as I've worked as a researcher for quite some time involving behavioral Analysis really within learning and that's actually my background and I absolutely love studying how people behave and a huge part of that is also studying our Cousins, you know in this case primates and a big thing is that and I addressed this very quickly in the beginning of the article the first sign that we see is Beating as used as a sign of aggression. So for instance Macaques these are you know, you're typical if you see a wild monkeys out in like either Thailand or India So they're very very intelligent and they often use trees to beat out rhythm to intimidate others encroaching in their area and then other highly intelligent apes namely chimpanzees also use crude drumming sounds namely just slapping a tree or slapping a log to signify. Hey, I'm here and I'm not a good mood and You know, one of the common things that we think of in a lot of times within human society is the war drum So and obviously this war drum has so many different books, you know, you think of you know, the Little drums at the Little Drummer Boy, but I'm like, no, that's like a nice Christmas story But you do think of the yeah, you know the drumming that happens at the beginning of a battle and a lot of these full-timey wars or you know, these other big war drums and all these other things and it's because it's it can be such an aggressive beat as You probably well know and I also merely talk about heavy metal. That's a great example of that And then there is the opposite of that the drum circle I love how in the article you call heavy metals soft or cousin the drum I'll be frank to talk about the what came about with this was the theme of stone science And so I got my undergraduate degree at University of Oregon And I also did a half year at Berkeley as well in California, both of which are notorious hippie In drum circles were a big part of it. In fact, I did African dance actually at University of Oregon Everybody was doing the African dance class It was a lot of fun our professor was from Burkina Faso in West Africa and Instead of having recorded music play for us while we danced we actually had a series of drummers The head drummer was from Mali in West Africa I talked a little bit about drums namely the Gembe from Mali and they played live for us And that was actually my first experience really with Gembe drums and how that was used and I was like wow We always see this drum everywhere, and I should mention this literally happened This definitely dates me this happened the exact same year that that South Park episode came out You know the hippie one where Cartman is looking for hippies And he's just like up too many hippies gonna start a drum circle They let a whole bunch get in there and they behave like a mile-wide drum circle But now we'll know the science behind why that happens, right? I did an episode with dr. Edward large which was about how primates and all these animals use rhythm And it was really interesting people can check that out before it's so long ago I feel like I've forgotten more than I can remember but that science of it's just kind of like I Love how it's inherent. I mean it is literally there's something about drums and rhythm that it were were hardwired To just be I guess you could say scared of it with the wardrobe sounds to be intimidated by it to be kind of curious about it to be Drawn in to try it to hit things It's just that's so fascinating that it's it's just in us I mean obviously some people are born to play the piano and they're born to play guitar, you know, they love it but Percussion it's just so like it's the original instrument Mm-hmm. And well, that's one of the most interesting things I thought and I couldn't quite quote it but Visiting the Museum of pop culture in Seattle. They're actually is a fantastic horror exhibit That's all about you know horror movies and what makes them scary and one thing they talk about is In the soundtracks a lot of times the really scary gentle beat Mm-hmm is evolutionary to us because as humans, that's the first sound we hear when we are in our mother's Uteruses developing as humans. Yeah, that is the first sound our eardrums here and for us. That's So a hardwired to this is something primal This is the first thing I've heard and so that's why a lot of times a gentle drum can be very soothing But a very aggressive drum is gonna make you scared and Yeah, I'm like I wish I could find that article turns that yeah But I've heard the bass drum the big drum can often be referred to as the mother drum because it's it feels like a heartbeat Exactly what you're saying where it's it's just kind of like, you know that boom boom boom Exactly, and so if you haven't read any of his work before your Joseph Jordania who I quote a lot in this article He really said it's also our need for social communication And that's that humming and that gentle rhythm that gentle sound for babies You know keeping that tone and keeping that gentle pace and it's not an offbeat rhythm. It's a steady Gentle I'm lolling you into something and that's a huge part of the drum circle where people are like, okay I'm going to be drawn towards this because it's a place where I feel safe or in the case of like a music festival or some of the drum circles I've Experienced as an undergraduate. It's fun and it's light-hearted and oh, okay, everybody's out here in the woods playing some drums I'm gonna dance in the middle of it. Yeah, exactly. I had my music festival days when I was younger where it's like, you know It's all some iteration of the Grateful Dead and like people following them around and then a bunch of other bands But now, okay, this is kind of a as a drummer. I'll say this there's something It's more pleasurable. I think if you're a part of it even if you're dancing if you're playing and if you're performing Versus maybe if you're walking by and you can go that doesn't sound that good, but the second you start Being included in it and playing it things sound better and you feel more involved and I'm really thinking about I was just watching this documentary on HBO about Woodstock 99 Which was really fascinating and just at how awful that event turned out with people being like overheated people dying and just trashing riots But anyway, why I'm saying that is because there was a portion where a lot of these as they say in the Documentary angry young white guys started to take all the trash cans and turn them into a metal trash can drum circle And it sounded horrible, but it's like if you're in that circle of like guys who are drunk and overheated Playing them then you like it Does that make sense? Yeah, and I wonder if that also stems back to once again We're socially wired when we are in part of something Then we're going to be drawn into it as opposed to walking past it. Yeah, and I mean It's one of the fascinating things to go back to the article About how universal drums are across cultures like and that was one of for me That's one of the most fascinating parts about researching for a lot of these articles that I've written and especially for this one because When I'm finding something that can be seen as universal I'm like this really is such an interesting part of our evolution as a species and also as a you know Universal culture of sorts You know and I talk about you know, that's interesting that you brought up the Drum circles made out of just trash cans and because it's like there's I've heard some people say that well anything can be a drum, and I'm like well As you pointed out I'm not a musician Although I learned how to play a few instruments when I was younger I should mention I did learn how to play the piano and I played it for many years But I also play the tuba and the clarinet which of all the instruments I've played I've actually enjoyed the tuba the best because it involved the least amount of Different notes and it also just focused on a bass. Yeah Yeah, and one of the most fascinating things about this too I should mention an undergrad in addition to dealing with a lot of drum circles I also was an archaeology assistant at our museum on campus at University of Oregon And so that was one of the fascinating things was being able to bring some of my archaeology background Even though once again just an undergrad no no peer-reviewed research under my name for that one sure Yeah, that's that's interesting. Well, you know, you say you learn piano piano is obviously kind of at its core a Percussive instrument as it's being struck the strings. So there you go. You're kind of a you're a percussionist in some way Thank you going back Way back I in your article you talk about the earliest drums are found in China and Vietnam With religious rights and things like that maybe expand upon that a little bit Do you know more info about those types of drums that were found? Oh my gosh, they're all over the place and With what with those they tended to be a little bit more They tended to be a little bit more handheld and they started evolving But one thing that was very interesting is that Looking at the people who played them. It was a lot of time connected with a spiritual world With okay, if you're going to learn how to play an instrument, it's because you are going to be talking to either ancestors or deities You know and not only that but other instruments as well including as I mentioned the article flutes are a big one that they found and Especially a lot of times these are found in very high-ranking burial places And some of the arguments also there that scientists have had is that these individuals had the time and the resources to learn how to really play the instruments not just a spontaneous drum circle, but they're getting the instrument to talk and give Make rhythm so that they're able to communicate with a different spirit and there's all sorts of different designs for that and That's especially seen in a lot of shamanistic societies. I talk a little bit Later on about how drums are held in such reverence in certain cultures That some places and some people will still require that they not be treated as mere objects And I mentioned a lot of First Nations people in Canada also I Had an experience a couple years ago at The National Art Museum of the American Veteran National National Veterans Art Museum, sorry And it was about the exhibit was about indigenous Americans serving in various different wars and We had Ho-Chunk elders also known as I believe sometimes they're called Winnebago and My two-year-old daughter at the time ran up and wanted to touch the drum and one of the elders like I wouldn't he like put his hands up and was like no you cannot touch that drum He hung in lady cannot touch it Ho-Chunk way and I was like, okay I pulled her off and he was like, yeah, you cannot touch that drum Just don't touch it and I was like, okay But that that's how much reverence is found because it's seen at least how he explained this to me because I was like This is just my experience with it, but it was held in such reverence that You know the human hand cannot touch it because it is speaking the voice of something that is beyond human So it's a sacred object basically, I mean it is extremely so Wow, okay, that's so Beyond like, you know, someone's vintage Ludwigs that they love. It's like it is this Something it connects you to your your religion. I mean, that's just fascinating now as far as like let's just say indigenous people obviously there's multiple different cultures and names across the world of what that means but so it In practice, they have this sacred instrument. They are then performing Would then people be like dancing to it. Would they be praying to it? What would be happening while the drum is being performed? In addition to that sound just to kind of go with the sacredness of it. What else is happening? I mean it really depends. I mean Across the Americas, I mean there are hundreds of different First Nations tribes who do drumming for different things So I really can't answer that because you say one and there's gonna be hundreds who do different things Okay, and so in some places in this case it was when I was when I was viewing the Ho Chiang elders It was four older gentlemen. All of them were war veterans I should mention there were two Vietnam veterans and two guys who had served in the army during the Gulf War So they had to be elders. They had to be male and they had to be veterans and so they played it and The first round we just had to sit and listen and in the second round all the elders walked around and Basically, we're able to do a small dance And so each time it's different it depends on what happens and that's just one small I really cannot emphasize this enough that was one small Experience and there are hundreds and thousands of different ways that this can be experienced throughout the world And how people view these types of sacred drums that yeah, we're not even scratching the surface Yeah, and I'm sure though it like we most drummers know that each culture Brazil China Everywhere, there's different rhythms that go with the different cultures which are endless and those those, you know people who are great at each individual one can be Can spend a lifetime mastering those particular types of rhythms and sounds but I like in your article how it says Archaeologists have determined that the drum and the dancing it inspires served a common purpose of bringing people together Which I think is a sort of safe, you know, not Overgeneralizing way of just like that's what drums do is they they bring people together Obviously we talk about war drums that might be bringing them together for a different reason to start a war but It's that's an interesting point of just bringing people together, you know, I often think of The scene however modeling this may sound I think of the scene in Moana, you know, Disney's Moana the 2016 film where she's playing the drum and that's a very different Design drum like I think it confused a lot of people when they saw her playing that thing and they're like is that a drum? And it's like yep, that's a drum and out of nowhere it calls the ancestors through the power of the I guess through the power of the drum In this case as well as the power of you know, the sea and everything and then the rock shows up But no, that's just a great example, you know, you don't see somebody playing a drum by themselves in the woods I guess that would be extremely odd, but it brings people together and I You know, we talk about group gatherings I also talked about the plague and medieval Europe war dances. Just it's we love to get together when there is rhythm in the air it's just something just really inherently draws us in and It's it's a fascinating fascinating thing to watch. Yeah, can we talk a little bit more about we've obviously referred to it a lot, but You know, I feel like so far we've talked about how it's kind of spiritual and a good thing and we've talked about animals you know using it to communicate and The mother drum and the heart but also we talked about with animals I'm trying to scare you. I'm trying to sound bigger. I'm trying to make it sound like there's an army of Whatever chimpanzees or whatever like I want you to be terrified and hear me across the forest that To this day, I mean, I feel like you just want these loud noises to scare people Why don't we talk about that in the history of the war drum a little bit more? Mm-hmm part of it is like I think you did a great example of saying, you know, I'm here pay attention to me and in this case with war drums it also comes to the concept of war dances and With a lot of this it's the idea of you really hit the nail on the head of hey We're here. There's more of us and also a lot of it. It's also keeping people in time Um, you really see this with a lot. I'm not going to veer off into history We know we're staying trying to stay in this in the social sciences here But the idea of keeping rhythm having the military drummer of everybody's standard attention Everybody look and it's it's a very westernized thing. This is how battle is going to go This guy's gonna snap the drum. They're gonna make lots of loud noises. Everybody get your guns ready. Yeah, and Yeah, I mean like there's was one of those like I want to go more into depth about this But I cannot really jump into history if I'm focusing on I mean, I can just think of other episodes I've done where you know George Washington put money and Effort and time into getting the drummers to be tightened up and the the fife and everything because he heard it at first And he didn't like how it sounded so this sounds terrible So he focused energy and time Into making the band sound better because it unifies everyone and makes you look better when you're literally when your musicians sound better and I Just think back further about cavemen stretching, you know Getting a turtle shell flipped over and stretching, you know an animal skin or a fish skin over it and hitting it It it also communicates things over a long distance Which I think goes back to like the indigenous people and all these things of You don't have a cell phone. You don't have a way to talk easily so you can tell Which is very animalistic too of like you raise your attention like something's coming. Yeah, and I always think of Ancient it's I'm always loved to say ancient Celtic But you know, you think of ancient your Western European Warfare and that was horns and drums play such a huge role in that especially horns and one of the most I believe it's called the Karex, I'm not gonna go into too much detail but at One of the National Museums in Ireland They were actually able to play a lot of these older instruments and it's incredible how loud they are. I figured okay They're gonna be whatever and then you actually sit on playing these ancient instruments You're like geez I could hear this. It's like a vuvuzela, but Thousands of years old. Yeah, I I hear like 15 of these guys and yeah, I'm gonna go running I don't want to deal with it. Yeah aggressive and You know and we talk about materials the earliest The earliest form of a drum was as you mentioned before found in China and it's over 7,000 years old. I just am like that is old. Yeah, and as you said it was alligator skin stretched over a shell and That in itself is so fascinating that why an alligator? Yeah, and One of them especially since no one really uses you think Gator skin now and you think like fairly tacky shoes I'm sorry for the fashion. He says listen listening. Oh, you just took it out of my mind. I was like shoes It's just like you know, yeah, it's I'm wondering about the actual Material of the alligator skin because it's not it's not as stretchy and as oily or can be as oiled Or as easy to procure as goat skin, which I've noticed is that's the one you go to is goat skin or donkey skin Which which kind of hurts because I think donkeys are adorable But I mean a 12 foot long Alligator is a little harder to kill than a docile donkey So sorry E or you're gonna be you're gonna be an instrument. Yeah, you're gonna be a drum. Sorry Because that was a plot point in the original Pinocchio Which is one of the darkest children's stories. I've ever read And now Guillermo del Toro is gonna be remaking it and I'm just like oh delightful. We'll sleep ever again But he's transformed into a donkey at one point It's not like the Disney version where he's sort of transformed No, the homeboy is full-on transformed and then they try drowning him so that he can be made into a drum Wow now I like to think That maybe though as far as killing animals go which goes back as far as you know forever Yeah, it's sort of a I'm sure there's like reverence and the sacredness of it kind of is like a you know Like we respect you we're going to turn you into the sacred instrument in some cultures So if you're gonna get killed that's maybe a you know what I'm saying like that might be a spiritually Respectful way to go I guess Mm-hmm, and one thing we'd have to ask with that is is it reverent which I think it absolutely is Or is it also we really want to treat this goat Donkey whatever ungulate because that's the most common thing we see is it's usually ungulates animals that have cloven hooves like donkeys and Goats, but one thing I would also wonder is is it also because you want that skin to be nice and clean and Oiled and all pretty because if you have a really mangled old goat and you Don't treat that skin really well when you are slaughtering it Well, you're not really gonna have a good cover for your drum now. Are you yeah, and I do remember reading it was This was actually a fiction book called a girl named disaster by Nancy farmer fast It's a really really good book that takes place in Zimbabwe in the 1980s and The girl hears are fairly horrifying story about A spirit that jumps from person to person and animal to tree and at one point the spirit ends up in the body of the king's youngest wife and The king's wife is saying all these things and the king and an act and an act of abject whore has the youngest wife murdered Killed and then has her skin turned into a drum which is then played And then the drum begins to scream and scream until everybody goes crazy and the kingdom is crushed by itself I and like and I remember thinking like in human skin, and I was like, okay, let's focus on this article I don't want to go down Human skin drums welcome to my world that where you start to go one way and then you're like no no no no no We're talking about that human skin drum I mean, maybe I don't know if you've done that. Maybe that might be a good Halloween episode to do someday But we have to I've been another place. I've read about having human skin bound books, but that's the most I've Read it's I don't think they do it with drum I don't want to study the dermis on what it could be used for it was just like You know what? We'll stick with these certain types of animals that have been used It's basically another thing I would think of with these larger animals is that they're easy to procure They're domesticated. So I mean, yes, we got some wild alligators from 7,000 years ago But by the time most met most drums as you well know are produced It's because we have a large amount of domesticated animals that are gonna be slaughtered and we'll probably use their meat for Eating and use their bones for other things and then hey, we got a nice Goat skin. Yeah, in fact, I've got a couple of friends who are actually goat farmers And that's actually something they still sell after they slaughter the goats They're like, okay, we have meat and we also have goat skin available But they don't as far as I know it's just sold with just the fur not or hair technically I don't think they've actually like tanned it be like, okay, here's it's a drum and time Yeah, no the That's very Like use every bit of the animal kind of you know Stuff and and I plan on doing I've been working on it for a while We've literally it's sometimes phone tag with booking shows takes we'll go on for a year but I've got an episode in the works about Making the cap skin and the goat skin heads and I've seen I've done a little research on the tanning process which is really a Pretty unpleasant process that can include Brains I had someone send me a message that we were talking about where there was a saying and I'm probably gonna get it wrong I should have his name, but it's it's buried in there It's I think he said that there's a saying where it's like the animal doesn't have enough brains to tan its own hide and there's a really interesting thing that I found where it was about a job that I Beal I believe like like like poor poor poor widows or poppers these women in like medieval times would walk around and Get paid like you know a 50 cents a day to pick up. I believe it was like dog poop and And just waste from animals and take it back to the tannery because they would use that in the process to break it down Which you know, that's a pretty rough job, but and the smell and just all this stuff So it's not a pleasant process. Yeah, you're making me wish I had included a little bit on the chemistry of that because there is reason why The tannins and other chemicals and that have such a good effect on preserving the hides and There's also a social aspect to it You actually nailed it and it was a really common thing in the medieval world where tanning was so necessary Not I mean drums I think we're a very minuscule part of that because everybody needed tanning but a little side story was you know William the conqueror who eventually took over England. He was the illegitimate son of a tanner's daughter and a lord and One of the ways that an invading village Decided to really insult him was throw out as you mentioned, you know Dung and awful and all these bloody animal hides while screaming plenty of work for the tanner's son You wonder where mr. R Martin got these ideas and sure enough he blew a gasket and Destroyed the town. I don't know whether he ended up tanning any of those hides I think he tanned other hides if you know what I mean. Yeah, exactly No tanning has always been a Gross science material science and but at the same time It's such a necessary science like making these incredible instruments that are so useful Yeah, and it's it's one of the one of the more fascinating things about writing this article And it's a secret thing. I love when it comes to certain articles is doing market research I I'm a one of my a side gigs or not side gigs But one of my hobbies is I absolutely love shopping and I love comparing prices and materials and sizes and One thing that really struck me and I mentioned this in the article is The Gem Bay itself, which is the most common drum that you see drum circles having and The fact that I was like, huh all my hippie buddies who are not exactly, you know rolling in cash although I had plenty of rich hippie friends, you know the trustafarians and Love that I'll never not love that term. Yeah, and I was just like, huh So my professor from Molly who played the drum in my dance class his was old school It was very clear. He got it from home And it was lovingly oiled and it was it had some scratches on it You could tell this this thing had been around like this thing was it was the equivalent of having a Really nice baby grand piano like no one else was allowed to touch it if you looked at it funny He gave you a dirty look. It was very very precious to him. Yeah, and then meanwhile I'm seeing you know, I'm thinking of the example like Caleb from Torrance, California Dragging his Gem Bay around that's got like stickers on it. Yeah, I'm gonna really date myself gore books 2004 You know, and I and it's very clear that Caleb from Torrance, California got his for like 25 bucks off Amazon Whereas, you know, my professor his was passed down from generation to generation and I was just like where Where's the difference between all of these? And so I just started researching all the different Manufacture types where you can get them and before I knew it I had spent two hours looking up drums And I was like wow there is such a gauntlet and I'm very curious to see Not only the sound difference because that was one thing that I wanted to include but once again word limit And I'm like we're not gonna delve into physics. Yeah, but the sound quality of the Gem Bay absolutely changes But I'm sure you've covered that before well not actually I really need to do more of a in-depth Gem Bay episode, but you're so right about the volume of it I just think the Gem Bay is Everything in one if that makes sense. It's just like you have your low notes. You have your high notes You have everything kind of in between It's the right shape not that the other like other Tons and tons and tons of other hand percussion drums aren't but it just fits between your legs so well I did a thing where I I Worked for two or three years with a kid's music program where I would it was like classes It was not like lessons. It was classes where we would have okay. It's it's you know the animal wheel Let's go. Okay. Where is the pack of the pig go goes? Here's the front of the pig great, but there would be a Gem Bay time and I would go up front and I'd have a Gem Bay and I'd play and And then kids would come up and play it. It's so much more attainable for any age As opposed to a drum set where that's a lot and even then with like zero to five year olds I had kids who would kind of fall forward and end up falling kind of into the drum set, which was a little bit of a nightmare but Something about the Gem Bay is just so so special now. Do you think though that like With the long history of the Gem Bay that sometimes like having a group of let you said Caleb from California Playing it. Do you think that it maybe is there's some cultural appropriation with with playing the Gem Bay in situations like that? And I want to say up front to all the drummers out there I don't really think anyone is being disrespectful, but just for the sake of conversation. What do you think about that? I think it's a really it's it's fairly complicated to ask and that's something I always have had trouble with myself So ultimately within cultural appropriation and I I I've worked with a lot of people on discussing this So a big thing you have to ask is is there a cultural exchange happening? So my first example I think of when I think of Gem Bay players is I say, you know I mentioned my dance class that I took where the professor is from Africa and he's telling us this is how you're going to dance This is what I have deemed as a member of this culture. What's okay? I'm working closely with another member of that culture who is from Burkina Faso, which is a different It's a different country, but we're working together on this working with you. This is a cultural exchange So that's the exchange of we're working together on this because he's like I want you Undergraduates and this lone very weird graduate student who's like 50 and in the class I want you guys to understand. This is my background. This is our background and you're going to learn about it and It's going to open your minds with a bunch of random people playing the Gem Bay I always you have to you do have to ask, okay, where did they learn it? Are they being respectful like we were talking 1999 Woodstock guarantee I would I would be of the opinion probably not But I wasn't there so I I couldn't say a good example was a young man who is I believe he is of Ojibwe descent was making fun at Pointing fun and but also being very upset and emotional where he was at a big Rally and there was a bunch of older white hippies like you can You can imagine the type and they are playing a Native American Native American from indigenous Americas They are playing a drum with the same sticks that you'd be playing at an indigenous gathering and making weird noises Into that it's very mocking and it's to that is ultimate cultural appropriation And he confronts them. Well, he's also making fun of them But he also says quite frankly guys I'm like my heartbeat is racing because I feel like they're mocking my culture They've taken my culture and it's almost like they're making fun of it and for a lot of people cultural appropriation Really can be emotional for obvious reasons the parties who cultures are from and the parties who you're like Hey, I just thought this headdress was cool. You know, why are you being a jerk? I just like this drum Why are you being so mean? It's you know, you're not sitting down and saying, okay, here's The level I'm willing to do and here's the level I'm willing to work with you on I'm just gonna take what I want and do what I want with it and So it can be so complicated on that because My first thought is for all I know Everybody in the drum circle all did a study abroad In Burkina Faso and they all learned from really nice Igbo elders, although Igbo is actually Nigeria and You know, this is they brought it back as part of a medical anthropology study because I mentioned at one point a healing circle for medical professionals this actually was a Research study to see if doing drum circles would help people in post traumatic stress syndromes and they actually found out it did I'll be it part of it was is it a creative expression? Is it a social expression where you're getting together and you're not necessarily? Opening up and going over trauma and feelings which can be really uncomfortable for some It's just simply I'm surrounded by other people who've experienced something similar And this is a way in which I heal and am able to express myself creatively. That's a great point I mean and you you are so right on you shouldn't look at people and assume that They didn't study it and they don't understand it and it makes me think of you know, and I'm sure a lot of the drummers listening to this know what I'm talking about where if you see very very very good drummers on social media who are Let's say just white guys and they're playing Latin rhythms But they've studied it and know every single one and have a huge respect for it And they know the slight variations and they know the differences and they know the cultural background I think that's great. I think that's showing respect and is being like, you know about is like What are you supposed to do never play it and then You're not introducing it to other people and then it doesn't get spread and that that culture then doesn't get shared with people around the world It's a sticky subject for sure Yeah, I part of me wants to make because I'm I collect a lot of art myself indigenous art and just art around the world and I do always have to ask I almost like have drawn myself a flow chart, which is Did I purchase this from a local person? For example, like that's the first thing you ask is Did I buy this off of Amazon or did I buy it from a local merchant? Who this is part of their livelihood and it's part of their culture and because that's ultimately what it's supposed to be Is a cultural exchange not an appropriation? Yeah And so that's where I you know, I really think of for instance if you're buying a drum from Artists who are located in West Africa or they have a connection there It's like you're supporting that and then not only that but are you going to use? You know, are you using it as part of a cultural exploration or are you just gonna sit in your dorm and Bang it a few times while moaning Yeah, yeah, it's ultimately it's about exchange and not appropriation for sure. Okay, great answer Now you I want to switch gears here and talk a little bit about Just because it doesn't come up much on the show, but I liked how you talked about heavy metal drumming And about how the drumming which which I don't know if you're a big like death metal fan or anything But obviously anyone who knows anything about metal music or heavy music with the double bass drums And all that stuff knows the intensity of the drumming and that that brings This force to it and that I think like like you were saying comes from that war drum feeling And that's obviously on purpose. So I just think that's really neat You touched upon that but connected it to the to the you know the drum circle Which is also loud and all this stuff But but let's be real heavy metal is typically meant to kind of amp you up and get you excited Absolutely, and I always one One fictional character that was in my mind when I was writing this article. Have you did you ever watch the show? Metalocalypse yes, absolutely pickles pickles the drummer was absolutely in my head the entire time because one thing that first of all I love his Wisconsin accent. I was just like he just sounds like so many people I know yeah and the fact that he is so tiny in comparison to the other members of the band, but he is so aggressive He is so wild and he is a redhead and you know He plays these giant drums in fact one of the metalocalypse songs all occasionally play when I Need to just pound something out and it is extremely heavy on the drums and pickle sings in it is hatred copter Personally because the lyrics are so stupid, you know, I fly a gigantic monster I'm captain evil stopper I get to wear big black helmets and just the drums are going wild because they're so big but they're also so fast It's supposed to be flying the hatred It just makes you feel the hatred. I love that you're talking about metalocalypse as the you know the PhD the doctor on the Which for the drummers out there? I believe that's Gene Hoagland who is just a monster drummer who I think played with death Who when he practices? I think most people have seen this online. He he puts weights on his ankles and Ways down his ankles so that he can you know work out his double bass and he plays with like combat boots on Which is awesome and then Brian Beller who's I'm just then now this is all music shop stuff But Brian Beller is a great bass player. I saw him play with for people listening I'm sure a lot of people have heard of the aristocrats, which is just a great band with Marco Miniman But Brian Beller is from metalocalypse as the bass player, but That's so funny. Yeah, and that's something that I thought was really fascinating When watching metalocalypse with my then boyfriend, who's now my husband? We actually that was one of the we watched a lot we watched a lot animation together and a Big thing that was noted was not only his pickles smaller, but he's also the only one that doesn't wear combat boots He wears Basically gym shoes or Keds because he needs it to be so fast That's funny and ironic because Gene Hoagland who's the drummer where his combat boots, but but yeah It's fascinating to see because that's that high kickstand that you have to use with that Which is a completely different form of the other drums that we've talked about in this article where with the jambes I kind of remember everything all the shoes that I didn't really pay attention because at least in the dance classes we had to perform barefoot always and One of the things that the dancer the head dance teacher told us was because we have to feel the rhythm in our feet Which yeah, that was it was awesome. I mean on the one hand. We really made the gym stink All these all these hippie girls whipping off their Keens like yeah Oh Keens I got our we have we have tons of kids Keens. That's our go-to kid show. They're good I I literally live in my Keens until they fall apart and then I don't even want to like throw them out I want to like bury them in the backyard. Maybe get like a little bagpiper for them Yeah, play a drum play a jambay around them. I'm gonna hire a job Well, that's the thing though is when you think about that like and that's this is one thing to talk about with culture is that You know, I'm like, would you play jambes at a funeral if you're in America if you're somewhere else? You know, you hear a funeral drums in some cases But then you think of American funerals, you know, you don't really see those and this is all just something New Orleans New Orleans has a good point different, you know, obviously the the second line Yeah, and that, you know that party kind of atmosphere, which you know, it's a sad party But obviously which there's an episode on that Yeah, it's so different. Yeah, I guess it's because I'm from this a little bit about my background I'm from the south side of Chicago and my very Irish background and my first thought is Okay, someone's dying some we're putting somebody in the ground Let's whip out the bagpipes and yeah for our brows and yeah by grandpa Yeah, exactly. It's it's Well, you know, that's that's most people though is it is kind of sad. I think different cultures have Different views on what's happening at that point in time You know, is it a sad thing? Is it a happy thing? Should we be celebrating our drums? Happy our drums sad our drums aggressive. It kind of ties it all together Mm-hmm. And I mean it as I mentioned before and this is something I think that is the thesis of the article is it is a social instrument, you know And I guess that's the only thing you think of when I guess I was thinking of another form of a drum at a funeral Is the 21 guns salute where somebody is You know where there's a drummer who's really keeping a heavy time and then all of the Marines or I Think it's Marines. I'm trying to remember who exactly is but somebody does that You know, they fire off the gun 21 times before the person is buried and it has to be via drum And but that's also to keep people in line. It's okay. Everybody ready. Okay, let's get going. Okay. There we go first round done Second round done. Yeah, you know, I was talking about the little drummer boy And it's now it recalled me why I was thinking of that is if you've seen that episode of the West Wing it's one of the best episodes of the West Wing where they bury a gentleman who was an army veteran who was homeless and the one of the chiefs of staff or chief White House chief of communications is able to pull some strings so that he's buried buried in Arlington National Cemetery and the it's cut it's juxtaposed with a choir of little kids singing The little drummer boy while this man is being buried with a drummer and given a 21 gun salute Man very very powerful episode Definitely like get a box of Kleenex's a lot. Yeah, I love the West Wing I got I think it was during the beginning of COVID where like I was watching like four or five episodes of the West Wing a day It's just like I burp burning through it that and then I got really into cheers You know You know, it's just like don't we all wish President Bartlett was our dad. Yeah, my middle mine so Bart My name is Thomas. My middle name is Bartlett Distant relative Josiah Bartlett Who that character is obviously named after So wow. Yeah, everyone thinks that it's Bartholomew, but it's actually Bart is short for Bartlett. So, you know, it's really funny St. We were talking about tanning and skins and whatnot St. Bartholomew is the patron saint of skinners and tanners and leather workers because he was supposedly skinned alive God little Walking Wikipedia of random weird facts. Oh, that's awesome. All right. Well as we're getting close to the end here I want to of course talk about you a little bit more, but Can we just like wrap up with I want to start with the question at the very beginning and just kind of maybe you can Give me like, you know a simple little answer here that you could people can walk away with What is really out of all that stuff the scientific reason why humans love drumming? It would be humans are attracted to sounds that are repetitive and that work closely with our emotions that are Going to heighten or downplay our emotions and that are you you know is quintessentially universal in that format That's awesome. I mean, this has just been so cool. So Yeah, you obviously are a great writer. What what other kind of things do you write about? I mean obviously besides this article on drumming So I write for massive science on a series of different articles series of different topics I should say ranging from forest fires to app design to the role of women in STEM and education and It basically is my focus is on fun Interesting facts outs that you know, we just would think like okay What's something happening in the world right now that we'd like people to know about of course? I say fun and my first thought was that's ridiculously tongue-in-cheek right now because Another one of my articles just came out that is about the effects of the drought and the incredible heatwave in Oregon specifically the Pacific Northwest has a huge, you know hold on my heart and you know seeing the effects of that and So for me being able to tell the stories of science as well as a lot of social science and a lot of history To me being able to spread the word and talk about that is so crucial as a writer. Yeah, which Your writing in general is very I mean from what I've seen and just talking to you obviously because we've been talking about Metalocalypse and South Park and stuff. It's very you're very approachable Which most of the like, you know doctors I've had on the show are and maybe it's just because this format is a little bit Looser where you're not you know doing it your thesis presentation or whatever where you can have a little more fun, but I think it's great and you've just in a in a in a Virtual room full of drummers It's been fascinating and you've really held your own and We should also mention that you have a brand spanking new baby As of this week, right? When was she so today's Tuesday he or she she when was she born? Thursday at midnight. Oh my gosh Well, I am just honored that you you know, are you feeling okay? I am feeling pretty good. She's number two I also have an as I mentioned before the Metalocalypse watching boyfriend is now my Metalocalypse watching husband We've been together for 11 years. Yeah, he's also a scientist by training although his focus is on immunology and biology And I'm actually hearing her cry in the next room. I think she's like who is this bald guy holding? Why is it he my mother? You're not my mom. Yeah, but we're doing we're doing pretty good as best we can But yeah, just it's been kind of a wild ride, but nope. That's got to keep on keeping on. Yeah, okay. Well Real quick. I want to mention the the person who was talking to me about tanning before and told me that cool saying about You know using brains and the up of the brains for do it was Robert Salah Sala Robert Sala. Sorry Robert if I mispronounced your last name So thanks Robert for we had a cool conversation about tanning but Awesome. Well Kristen on that note. I think this week everyone listening will skip the bonus episode because Kristen has a Weak old baby and a four-year-old with a broken arm which we talked about before so I hope she feels better That's got to be pretty Confusing and rough for her. Yeah, but she's she's a tough girl and we're gonna do this But thank you so much Bart. This was fabulous If you like this podcast find me on social media at drum history and please share rate and leave a review And let me know topics that you would like to learn about the future Until next time keep on learning