 Welcome back to the breakfast on PLOS TV Africa. Now an investigator reports by a journalist, Abdulaziz Abdulaziz, has basically uncovered a mass recruitment drive within the Boko Haram insurgency in North East Nigeria. We've invited him to shed more light on his findings. Good morning, Mr Abdulaziz. Good morning, thank you for having me. All right, so tell us what you found in the course of the investigation into the Boko Haram insurgency and their recruitment. Well, I think that this is an opportunity of my own interest in what is happening, especially in the north-western part of the country, what we normally call the planetary. This is a crisis that is affecting, obliqually, four states in the north, in the north-west as well as non-centralised Niger states, the states of Zampara, Kazina, Kaduna and Niger. Of course, they are worth it. And now we are seeing the emergence of deadly operations of such in KB as well as sub-portal states. So this, my latest report, is around how this is not only a boundary tree, I mean, rural boundary tree would also make up a person into Islamic insurgency with insurgent groups like Boko Haram going in there to recruit, or try to combat a lot of these rural boundaries into their own fort. That is, it is somehow transmitting from what is somehow an endless criminal activity into some sort of proposal in court movement, which, of course, is quite dangerous because when you have armed groups transmitting from just some purposeless bandits and criminals into unorganised criminals with even the criminal affiliation, I think it's worrisome for everybody. All right, we're eventually going to, there's some other aspects that I want to look at. But before that, let's talk about the availability of recruits. Paint a picture of what it is like in those regions. Is there a readily available number of persons waiting to be recruited into these groups? Is this as a result of the level of unemployment in those parts? And what else do we need to know about the availability of recruits into either boundary tree or into the Boko Haram sect? Well, you cannot actually put a number to it because this is something that these are people that are in hard-to-reach places, operating clandestry in forests that are largely inaccessible, which is dangerous. But, of course, going by the numbers of these armed men in the forest in these states, I mentioned, they run in the really thousands. And as my report indicated, these are areas with very large forests which you combine the four, the six states from Niger down out to Sokoto and you see that they have over almost 260 square kilometres, which is more than even the size of the United Kingdom. So it's a very large area and unfortunately, in a lot of the forests in these states, there are these criminal elements and it is these young people that are armed, there are the planning parties that the Boko Haram element, Boko Haram, Aishwab and Asaro, and I'll try to move up and bring them into their own umbrella. And of course, as I indicated in the story, this is like a move to somehow deplete attention from what is happening in the military operation in the Northeast and thereby attention to this other area. And also for the Boko Haram elements to create some sort of sub-hew where they can hibernate and also perhaps even get resources because there have been public statements like why the governor said that he will mention that a lot of money from activities of kidnappers in the North West end up in the Northeast. Abdulaziz, in your report, you mentioned that Boko Haram used emissaries, they used preachers to basically woold these bandits into their fold. Can you tell us more about the recruitment strategy of the Boko Haram terrorist? Yeah, you know, those, lately there are three things. One is of course the use of logistics because, you know, all these criminals, they're heavily on arms and ammunition. So any help, anyone who can help them to secure those arms can easily influence the way they think, the way they behave and all that. So of course because Boko Haram has access both internally and externally of a large cache of arms they can easily help or perhaps try to use that to lure these people. Then of course there is also an issue of information because in most of these places like what is happening in Niger and Carduna you find Boko Haram elements living side by side with bandits in these forests. So if there is information or intelligence they share with them. Then also there is the doctrinal part in which they try to preach, use clerics because of course most of these flany bandits even though of course they are not really religious so to say but they find their roots in Islam in the sense that a lot of them are originally Muslims. So it's easy to use religious sentiments to combat them which is happening in a lot of these places. They send emitteries in front of preachers who try to talk to these people into showing them how they can perhaps get religious backing for what they are doing. Ok so Abdullah Ziz you are saying that these people Boko Haram insurgents are using the background of religion to convince these bandits to join them and they are saying it's a jihad not necessary that they are massacring people and killing them. Yes that is it because if in a situation where they turn the thing into a religious thing it becomes a jihad and it is perhaps easy justification for all these things. It looks like Boko Haram will sing in the south in the north east trying to create divisions in the sense that these people don't believe in us and therefore are unbelievers and whatever belongs to them is lawful to us but we can kill them and combat their world and combat their women into ours. So all this by the time they sell this to others that's what they are trying to sell to these guys and by the time they buy this it now becomes somehow lawful or legitimate for them to justify all these atrocities to say oh we are doing this because these guys are not even believers and we are the believers and as we've seen from some recent happening the mastermind of the Yawri School of Education came out to say things somehow that sound like the usual Boko Haram method that oh I don't still but I only know more enough as soon as people who are working with government are soldiers. So all this you know is showing clear, clear, upper clear, alliance in terms of talks and ideas. Let's talk about you earlier mentioned the bandits Boko Haram and Saru and of course ISwap. How much of a problem is this for the Nigerian state if we now see these people recruiting more and of course spreading a similar ideology amongst themselves. Is this going to be a bigger problem rather for the Nigerian state and the ability to defeat these groups? Well this means a lot and actually it's really ominous. It is very bad for the Nigerian state because when we have some crisis that have lingered for years you have not been able to contend them and it is metamorphosing into some bigger problem because when you have more numbers and perhaps more territorial control then it means greater power and more little danger. In the sense that these guys for example if they are able to control even no matter how small a place it is, it's more so that this forest is really huge and the men in there are a lot and of course it's not really all doomed because this is just happening, this is somehow starting and that is perhaps the purpose of the story to call out authorities to this issue. Of course I'm sure that they must be aware but of course to also put it out there so that those who can take action should horribly try to halt what is happening because if we allow a bloke around Ansaro and others to take root in this northwestern Niger state forest then everybody is in trouble. What kind of action are you referring to now? What should be the response of the Nigerian government to this problem that seems to be getting to be a high dry headed? I cannot say exactly because I'm not a government but actually for me I think it's really been knee jack because if you notice how this thing is escalating the escalation is quite alarming and the response has not been commenced with the level of destruction and the expansion we've seen in this problem. Of course it's not to say that they are not doing nothing they are trying to perhaps the limits of what is available to them in terms of men and weapons but actually to be frank the effort is not commenced with the problem I had. I'm aware that you approached the DSS. The DSS spokesman Peter Afunaya with your findings. What response did you get? Well I got no response because of course no matter the story we tried to talk to people involved because as he just asked me I also wanted to know exactly what is the government's response especially to this changing pattern of the problem but when I tried to speak with them they didn't give any response and there was no response to my inquiry. And how dangerous do you think this is, a seeming silence from the government in the face of this massive recruitment and also how dangerous do you think it is because we saw a video recently about Bokoram insurgents pledging the alliance to the IS. As I said this is quite dangerous and the government has to really work up and immediately there is no time to waste because we've seen so many problems like for example in the Bokoram itself or everywhere has been happening in the South East transmuting from a small issue into a huge problem because of mismanagement at the initial stage so we need every effort and every attention to this problem because as I mentioned earlier if we allow this to linger over to expand and to really take root as the terrorist want then it is going to be really helpful to even the existence of the Bokoram engine because you have an honourable insurgency in the North East and then another approach, a very land one has been opened elsewhere then it should worry everybody especially the government and the security outfits. I also want us to go back a little bit if you recall well I would like to know what you know concerning the mergers between these groups if you recall after the news of Buboka Shekau's death it seemed like there were issues among factions of these groups not long ago, a couple of days ago I had seen a story of them of course coming together mending fences and becoming one I believe and fixing the factional issues that they have so tell us a little bit about what you know about that the factions that led to the death of Buboka Shekau and the rest of them are they currently in good terms are you aware that they are in good terms and of course maybe are now working together? What I know from the I don't have any studio knowledge I know and that was reported of that and of course a video to that effect is in circulation that the two sides will coincide and resolve together that is also another danger signal because at a point these guys of course they used to be one then they supported and then later become enemies and kill themselves which was very positive for the fighting forces on the left-wing side but now that they are announcing merger and coming back together it means that the destruction which could easily be exploited and I'm wishing they were expanding among themselves would not be all turned against our own forces and therefore it's really worrisome and there should be new people renewed effort to ensure that they are fought with all seriousness because as I said they are coming back means stronger incidents Abdulaziz I want us to address one fundamental issue regarding the term bandits it's been a subject of controversy when they are called bandits and we've had security analysts come out to say why should they be called bandits they are Bokoram insurgents so are you saying there's a difference between the Bokoram insurgents and the bandits and who exactly are the bandits are they herdsmen what exactly do we know about their identity? well that is really a naughty issue and as you said it has led to a lot of controversy and background fault I think it is also media coinage media coinage also happens because it's not like something you sit down and design or sit down and agree because that is how the name Bokoram started so it's what the media use that sticks if you see for example what happened in the south especially with the escalations in early this year we were on march up to maybe early June you see a lot of things happening but perhaps the last part of the media decided to call the perpetrators of the action on non-government so it's the same thing with bandits it's the same that this is the early coinage that okay these are bandits so of course not bandits but these mean armed criminals and of course the issue of identity is also there people will think why don't you call them these or that but the thing is there is a bit naughty in the sense that you don't use a part for the whole that is what I mean here is you can't say because for example at the start the Bokoram elements were allegedly cannurys from Borote or Angiobae you don't just say every action by Bokoram and say okay cannurys killed policemen for example or you cannot say will I be killed of those people because if you do that you sanction their action and now hung it over every person of that ethnic group you don't like saying I mean describing iphone as iphone for them you cannot say iphone was killed for his officer but of course if you come down to break it or of course they are iphone those like maybe majority of the Bokoram members especially at the beginning of the cannurys also the bandits they are largely planning young people and I think that is to make clear for example in my latest story even from the very first paragraph that was the word I used because from their action from their everything they are of Polanyi's talk so I think it's not really completely wrong if you call them Polanyi bandits but you don't just oppose or use one for the other that is you don't say you don't just say Polanyi or you just say Hada because it's really wrong and that media has really done a bad job there in the sense that we somehow I am a journalist so I don't exclude myself from that but we somehow helped escalating patients especially at the beginning during all the happenings in the North Central and all that so if you say Hada and then now everybody having cattle become a suspect because now it is generic and of course not all Hada does not like not all for example that the drivers are one child that is a local criminal all those all fish are men can be bonkers so all these things I think is some naughty but important lines that need to be drawn and every attempt to lock them up actually doesn't help just like also every attempt to like exclude or to try and externalize is also not helpful but Abdulaziz bandits commit acts of terrorism so why not the term terrorism and you know this like I mentioned has been a subject of debate so it seems like calling them bandits is like making light of what they do that shouldn't we as journalists address them as terrorists since they terrorize people well you know I don't know perhaps there is really an issue of a missing translation you know the concept of missing translation in the larger frame that is if you say somebody is a bandit you are not calling that person a holy man of course a bandit is a terrorist because anybody just perhaps people perhaps the word to the number 12 of years the word terrorist is found, granted or more but gladly bandits if you check the meaning is gladly the same thing as terrorists somehow of course terrorist is perhaps at the level of more organized organized or other but the dictionary definition of bandits shows is a criminal somebody using gun or using arm to commit crimes so it's not like if you say it's a bandit you are not calling him a saint or you are not calling him just any other name you are calling him a criminal people feel the word bandit perhaps is not strong enough but I don't think the thing for me is is not the word because as Shakespeare told us a rose by any other name would smell as sweet so if the most important thing is how you take them and how you treat them I want us to of course still speak on certain angles with regards how they have remained successful all this while reasonably successful they've continued to exist you've mentioned that there's thousands of them in these forests in northern states for a long time we've had conversations with regards what the government needs to do how to cut off their funding how to stop them from being able to get weapons and some of all of that has there been any success in that regard with being able to reduce their access to these high caliber weapons is there any ways that the Andran Government maybe needs to change its tactics to reduce the abilities that they have so you can you come again with the question that was raised alright so I'm asking with regards their abilities to continue to fund their activities and to be able to get weapons you've mentioned earlier that there's thousands of them in forests across northern Nigeria do you think that the Andran Government is doing well enough with reducing their access to weapons and high caliber weapons or do we need to change tactics yeah that is actually a major part of of all this problem that is access to weapons and weapons are what keep foiling this crisis in as much as there is almost free access to weapons then you don't know the end when the end will come for this it's of course no thanks to our poor old borders and our very non-chelix neighbors who perhaps almost allow free access fo fo to protect especially countries like Nigeria and TAC and from there you see most of these weapons come from there and they are very very much accessible to our government and security post-end agencies to ensure that we caught hell, we caught that link while that link is not caught actually I don't know when we can bring an end to this problem because these guys have almost unhindered access to weapons of course I understand that some operations have been undertaken lately to to stop that and I can see some level of success but I still feel that more needs to be done and we don't have to we don't do it alone we have to ensure that we bring in this our neighbors and let them participate fully to ensure because that if the entry point is not checked it is somehow difficult to stop things like this at the you know when they are here so we are basically talking about border control Mr Abdulaziz right? so also could you tell us if you have the details as to how Burkouram insurgency is funded in Nigeria and also what your thoughts really are about Sheikh Gumi and his direct involvement to the activities of the bandits and how his seem to speak up for them in the country there are no questions that I can answer successfully because beside what I know like almost every other person that is on Burkouram funding which is a lot of foreign funding because they have foreign collaborators and about I think in May I reported about how the government has arrested a number of businessmen and through the change of writers who have been, who were used to send money to some of these criminal groups they are, that is so there is that foreign part but also of course locally we always read about blocking roads especially the where the routinely abducts people and then demands even recently some staff of a UN agency was released by Burkouram and some others along with some about 10 others after of course you don't have to be told after payment of ransom so keep that in mind as a major means of raising funds and therefore access to money that sustain their operation then that is second to the foreign funding community but of course also we are not aware of attacks they sometimes undertake on military formation from where they often get weapons and other logistics so all these some of them I don't think is really some obscured issues is out there these are like majorly the means they use to sustain their operations and also get money because for me it has been really reckless because of course there is negotiators just like journalists you can't deny that anywhere in the world they can have access to criminal groups or individuals but there should not be an excuse or an alibi for one to somehow turn as crazy as the cleric has gone because in as much as you are trying to draw attention some of the genuine issues regarding this is also very very unwholesome that he somehow appears to be like an unofficial spokesperson for these groups there is a line which is somehow very thin but is there between what is the role of a negotiator or a mediator in a crisis like this and also being genuine and also with allegiance to your country not to criminal groups and I think a lot of times he is very uncontrolled statements and very much controversial of course because and unguarded and therefore is very difficult for people to raise questions around his motives or even in all these crisis alright Abdulaziz Abdulaziz thank you so much for the work you do I hope you do get that response from the DSS Mr Funaya I also will remind you to stay safe I would like to continue to hear from you and to speak with you on these issues thank you very much alright stay with us we will take a short break when we come back we are moving into talking about Namdekandu who has been re-arrested and the different angles concerning that story will be joined by Nika Gulley after the short break