 Hello, everybody. I'm I'm excited to welcome you, welcome you to our virtual world that is every library, the every architectural and arts library. What I'm going to do in the next 25 minutes or so is talk to you about some of the resources we have available, and some of the words that we do. And then we'll invite one of our PhD colleagues in to talk about how she's navigated, not just every but a variety of research methodologies that has, you know prompted her into the direction she's gone in so Charlotte called well will join us shortly. What I'm going to do right now is just share my screen. Let me just do that very quickly. The beginning. So here is our reading room. It's in the Kim meeting white design reading room. It's been in place for since the late since the early 19th century. The, the whole, the whole history of the every library is based on Henry out in every who was an architecture student at Columbia and he was friends with Professor where who was actually the very first architectural faculty member here at Columbia. Henry out in every data and untimely death and his parents turned to the Kim meeting white and supported the, the building of this collection which is dedicated to Henry out in every and as you can see here. This is our reading room and we have about 500,000 volumes on site. Not on site we have much like lots of these larger institutions we have an offsite facility storage facility where a lot of our material lives, and within the Columbia University library system there are about seven or eight different kinds of libraries and I'm sure many of these libraries will attract students in different directions, but the focus of Avery of course is art and architecture and then what you see here is a good chunk of our collection. The other thing I wanted to just share about every very quickly is in addition to our general research collections we also are the stewards of the university art collection. So Alma Mater which is sort of the iconic, you know sort of signature signature graphic for for Columbia that that actual art that actual sculpture belongs to Avery vis-a-vis our properties collection and so we are in charge of a lot of collections and reference, you know inquiries and things like that about about this particular piece but about a lot of the public art sculpture and a lot of the art that is in various offices and seminar rooms and you know, you know, hallways and things like that so we have about close to 14,000 objects in our collection and all of it falls within Avery. The other big signature collection or signature piece is our Florian Stettheimer collection and she was a very, very important late 19th early 20th century artist, and we hold the largest collection of her materials, about 70 to 75 paintings, which, you know exceeds, obviously other other collections, but it's it's again something that people love to come and look, look to and study and we we are very excited that we've got these, these materials in our collection and it's just an interesting component to sort of the diversity of what we have to offer. So getting down to architecture. I'm just going to very quickly go through some of our basics. The Avery drawings and archives collection and here's a wonderful sample of a Hugh Ferris rendering for Lincoln Center. The archives collection amounts to about 900 collections with a lot of focus on New York City. Not not entirely but the majority of the focuses is on that and it includes things going from McKim, Mead and White, you know we have some of their holdings through. And so we have a lot of work to do with the Avery Classic's collection, which was a very recent acquisition. We also hold materials and archives, ranging from Shadrick Woods to James Winters site to HLW so we, we are very, very, very active in in representing the built environment and historical design production through the New York lens. So the Avery Classic's collection, which is, it sounds, when you think of classics you think like Homer or Pacific Beads or something like that. Classics in this case means classics in terms of architectural monuments and publishing. So here are just a few examples of what we have there. One of the first solar photo books is one, one component. And then we have lots of trade, trade catalogs which are so important to historic preservationists in particular, but you know in the larger field in general, you would be surprised by how many, how many trade we have and who designed them. They range from Kibbutzier, Frank Lloyd Wright, Paul Rudolph, I mean it's just, it extends the gamut and it's this really interesting window into the real technical sort of decorative aspect of design. And we have a bunch of them in our classics collection. This actually the one on the left here is right out of the Kibbutzier trade catalog for his wallpaper. You know I'm not sure how you would sort this one out on your wall but it's, there it is, how exciting. And it's one of many, many designs within his trade catalog and we also hold many, many of the Surlio and published manuscripts which is another really exciting, exciting feature of our collection. So basically within our, from our general collections to our special collections, it's possible for one person to sort of extend the journey of one kind of inquiry through all of these different formats and media. I think Charlotte will talk a little bit about how, how she's navigated that with her own research process but these are just some of the things that that we, you know, maybe maybe you won't come to Columbia to study look at the CIA or Surlio but the, these are the kinds of things that can certainly inform one's one's research choices. And I mentioned we have the Frank Lloyd Wright archive which extends to about 55,000 drawings, many thousands of leaves of manuscripts and correspondence and multimedia files it's right now, the largest archive of American architect and luckily for us it's all all processed and available for for study and, you know, as you might imagine we get tons of tons of inquiries from all over the place, not just from our students here at Columbia but from homeowners from scholars from an international community, particularly from an interesting right and so it's, it's created a really interesting challenge for us in terms of mission and what, how do we, how do we handle, how do we handle this volume but nevertheless the important thing is to give researchers records to these these collections and our immediate student community is at the forefront of that access point. And finally I just want to point out. A lot of people don't know this but our, the Avery index to architectural and periodical literature is housed right here in Avery. Jack is on our on our call today he's the new editor of the Avery index. Traditionally, the Avery index has served as a register for what we collect what we have on site or what we subscribe to. But, you know, we have a lot of opportunity now worth with the help of students and with the help of our new editor to think about extending the boundaries a little bit more of what it is we want, you know, rep recorded and made available. The Avery index has, obviously, a lot of impact you know and we get a lot of requests for from from titles and serials and whatnot to be included because you know if you can be included in the Avery obviously have a lot of impact and we take those those requests very seriously but it's also an opportunity for us to think about like how do we move forward and target those kinds of voices and those kinds of areas of scholarship that we may not necessarily have strengths in but it's something that the index should so there's a bit of a veering off point now with with the index and Avery sort of traditional collecting patterns. And so here's just a quick example of some of the things that you know we're thinking about. You know we don't necessarily have all of these on our shelves but maybe we should. And, and this will really ensure that our every index stays relevant and immediate to people studying the built environment. So that's a whole lot of information there about about every in like 10 seconds or less. Yeah. So, Charlotte, can you, can you like, can you tune in. Okay, I was having the same problem. So, I think with all of that with that sort of landscape established I'm going to ask Charlotte to just tell you all a little bit about the work she's been doing and you know some of it has, you know, taken her away from Avery but the last these research methodologies and these lines of inquiry I think are so exciting and, you know, really speak to just what what what's possible with with the GSAP program so punch it over to you Charlotte thank you. Yeah, and thanks Hannah for inviting me to do this I've always really appreciated Avery and just go work that you've done in particular Hannah. And just how open you are about expanding the collection and to be as accessible as possible the students so um yeah like Hannah said, I'm going to talk a bit about my dissertation topic and some of the research methods that I'm using the past for this particular topic and what I'm planning to use in the future. And so I'm a fourth year PhD candidate studying architectural history of Avery here at Columbia. And my, my dissertation focuses on a comprehensive well hopefully a comprehensive study of the architectural history of the African Methodist Episcopal Church. And not only a comprehensive architectural study of this church, but then also how architectural practices and projects and discussions with Amy leadership and folks who attended Amy churches so the congregants. And how their perceptions, either contradicted or reflected dominant perceptions of blackness through building, what I like to call the culture of building, because it's, it's more so than just architecture and building. It's changing values over time that are reflected in the bill environment. And I said in the past for this because I am, I have a master's degree and preservation from Penn. So, and I also do preservation work on the side. There's one church in particular Baptist church that used to be an AME church in Germantown Philadelphia that I've been working on. That's also part of this whole architectural story. And for me what's important to get across for this dissertation is not only showing racialized minorities participating in the culture of building, but also making this topic as accessible as possible to folks who don't study architecture and who might be interested in it. And then people who do study it and seeing different ways that we can talk about American architecture through different lenses that are not necessarily a few well placed monuments that we all know about, which is a line that I stole from my father who's great. So I have to put him on that. But in particular, I guess I would, I would call myself a preservationist and a public historian in this respect, because while I'm written documents are very much important to get at the idea of train, changing values and trends and architectural in this particular project because it's focused on a religious institution and the black church capital B capital C, one aspect of the back of the black church, I have to use other archival methods, and in particular, some of the archival material that's really helpful in terms of teasing out this perception of blackness and building have been church meeting minutes for the conferences and national conferences that were held from the beginning of the church's history so 1816 and the dissertation itself go all over the 1930s. So, those are really important because you have am ease talking to each other about the importance of aesthetic and design and their buildings, but then also how are they going to fund projects in order to not just spread Christianity or their brand Christianity, or communities. And what's really interesting about the AME church, especially in building history is that it's older than the institution itself. The Ames began in Philadelphia, when the black community, their black Methodist were attending the prominent Methodist Church in the late 18th century, St. George's and they were discriminated against, although the Methodist, the Methodist Episcopal church at the time was actually more accepting different types of people but there was still a level of discrimination. So, the black Methodist led by people like Richard Allen, and then also absolutely Jones but then he stayed with the Anglican church and had his own church but specifically Richard Allen. And then his autobiography that he and a team of people hauled a blacksmith shop to the corner of six and one bar in Philadelphia and then repurposed that into a meeting house and then they invited a bishop Francis Ashbury who was kind of this, I think he was the first Christian bishop I'm not entirely sure. Don't quote me on that but the fact that they had this connection with a pretty important bishop from the ME church to come to their church to give the first sermon before the church was officially established in 1816. It has a level of a significance about how important this place was for black Methodist and then African Methodist Episcopalians. So, and that meeting house is now called Mother Bethel but the history of that place is interesting because it's also the oldest continuously owned property in the United States by black people. It's a meeting house, and then they got funding for a second house or a second building that was built in 1805. A third building that was built in 1841 and then the building that's there right now is a Romanesque church is built in 1889, all on the same property. And there have the church itself in the archives that are in the bottom of the church. There's a stained glass window that has which right now in the middle of it and then this building history surrounding him. So you can see that the just from that stained glass window that it's really important that there's this association with respectability and building and property ownership. Because if you know anything about American history in order to be considered American there's always this association with property. Unfortunately, there's also a class dimension to this because people like Richard Allen actually own their own houses and their own property. So you have this level this hierarchy that seen throughout the church that does not or just goes to show to the fact that black Americans are not a model if even in church culture, that there are certain types of people who become the leadership who dictate the rules, who buy their property, etc, etc. And then there are other people who have everyday relationships with these buildings. And that's something that's really important to me that I want to get across in this dissertation and it's not even just about mother Bethel because mother Bethel has been documented to the largest extent because of how important it is for church history, not just black church history, but just showing that the ams and all our different districts, they were building within the culture of American building but was what was important for them for that specific region for that specific neighborhood. And then also, when they sent their missionaries abroad, especially in Haiti and Africa, they also incorporated different types of Americaness in their building so there's this also this sort of complicated murky association with American imperialism and black people so it's interesting in the sense that if you do any research on the Amy church you'll find histories about the founders history about gender politics. The first female Bishop wasn't ordained into until 2008. The history is about the, the whole history of a church but nothing necessarily about this preoccupation with building like it's mentioned in text, but you never ever grapple from it from architectural history perspective and then also this theoretical speculation on blackness and So, like I mentioned before, church proceedings are actually really important for this deeds. So, this is all coming from a preservationist background that I have looking at non architectural texts in order to get the whole story for architecture. And I think it also, it opens, it opens you up to a wide range of how people participate or engage with building. That's not necessarily from, you know, you know, like, into Jackson Downey or Frank Lloyd right. Even though these people are important, because they're all part of American architecture, but showing how other people participated in building is just adding to the story, making the whole story whole. Um, like I said, deeds autobiographies of important people in the Amy church Richard Allen has dedicated a page and a half to the architectural history of the first Amy church. And the first historian of Amy church actually talks about the architectural history of mother vessel. So, it's there, you just have to use these different sources that we don't see in in university or in class. Um, hopefully someday, someday soon. Well, get to see these texts to show us this different side of building. Yeah, I mean, that's such a great, great snapshot of just how this will sound really reductive and I don't mean it to but you know what I what I love about people studying architectural history now is, you know it's just going off into these really sort of interdisciplinary directions and that's not new I mean it's been happening for a while but it's now you know I think through the programs with G SAP and the kinds of things that charlotte and her colleagues have been working on it's just really going in super super interesting directions that you know we haven't necessarily thought about and why that's important to Avery is because it really makes me think about like okay. Wow, you know maybe these are areas that we should start focusing on in terms of collecting I mean we we yes we are an architectural register for New York City production, historically, but maybe we need to move beyond that. Because we certainly want to mirror and reflect on what our students are doing. And that's so so important and that kind of engagement is really really important to me. And so it's just so exciting to hear about charlotte's work and we're both from Philly so I love I'm not sure about it anyway. I'm a fake Philadelphia and but maybe it's my second home I should say that but yes Philadelphia. If anyone's from Philadelphia you will not ever have to pay book fees up again. I'm just kidding. I'm just kidding. I guess we have just a couple of minutes for questions or thoughts if anyone wants to share anything or ask anything we're ready and waiting for your for your questions. I will just like get to the sort of nitty gritty here and we make sure that all of the, you know, graduate students that come into the programs within GSAP and art history. You know everybody gets a carol. So you have your dedicated workspace, a lot of our collection doesn't circulate so that's really important. We've had to change things a little bit since COVID. And, you know, we're, we are the, you know, one of the largest architectural libraries in the country so there, there are the resources are pretty a pretty bottomless but that's not to say we don't have everything we don't have anything and we should book to new areas to so it's an important opportunity for collaboration. All right, since no questions are coming in I'll ask a question. Charlotte and Hannah do you want to talk a little bit about what it is. Like the sort of like interactions between like PhDs and graduate students. I think that that's something that is a little it looks like someone has unmuted themselves I'm not sure if they were ready to ask a question but I'd love to hear a little bit more about since you're here Charlotte of how you have been interacting with graduate students at GSAP. And, you know, within the historic preservation department or across kind of different programs I think that that would be a great addition to the conversation. Yeah, no that's a really good question and a lot of my interaction comes from, well, probably 100% of it comes from teaching. I, I've taught the core architectural history class that the master students have to take their first year twice. Well, I guess you could say four times so four semesters but the thing is is that it's good. I'm meeting the massive students that way, especially through section. I'm also taught in other programs, and my interactions with other programs have been through teaching, but also just specific projects that I've worked on especially in preservation with future students in the interior, and the academic journal that their director, Jorge, Jorge, Jorge Carlos is the editor of. And then also working with the PhDs there that have also introduced me to the master students who are interested in a lot of the questions that I'm interested in, and especially with social justice through preservation. I don't think like a public history approach, but I'm going back to teaching, I always try to make a point of being, I guess you'll hear me say, being as accessible as possible. Teaching is really important to me, just from my past history, and I can learn a lot from my students. I can talk about what's really important to them, or what they find interesting, and just trying to get them to think about architecture just building in different ways, and that there's still a historical approach to it but that we can think outside of the box which I think they appreciate being GSAP students. Great, well, I think since we're not receiving any new questions, maybe Hannah I'll ask you for your final thoughts. Yeah, all I can say is that the Avery you know it's got this international standing it's really an important collection it's a thrill to come here every day. It's sad that we've been so locked down, and I've had to, you know, shelter the collections in the way we have but my feeling is the collection is only as good as we, you know, as only as good as we can reflect what students are studying today and what we know and you know this kind of engagement with what like Charlotte is working on which is super exciting and what so many others in the program are studying, you know we're really having great conversations about how, how we should be really moving forward with the collections, and you know the whole digital realm of course is really, it's very vexing, you know, getting getting architectural archives now in these digital formats is kind of tricky and so how do we accommodate that and these are just not sort of operational questions but it's it's also really important to talk to students to figure out like. Okay, so how, how would you want this accessible and discoverable. So that's just all to say that you know I I'm I've been at every now for just under two years. And you know I really look forward to working with students going forward and figuring out how we, you know, keep keep every moving forward I mean we like I said can stand on what we've done well in the past but that's only going to get us so far and then your your contributions are going to be amazing. So that's awesome. Yeah, you do you want to unmute yourself and ask your question first and then we'll go with Rachel afterwards. Sure. Hello. Yeah. Oh okay. Hi, I am a prospective grads applicant. So, most of the programs that I am probably interested in are not necessarily research or dissertation based, but at the same time you know I've been writing for the last few years and like research is still part of my personal work. And you know what kind of resources might be available for me. You know, like it's the entire database kind of pretty much open I know like in previous like institutions I've been in. You know I haven't had like the most easy access to maybe some of the archives, you know without you know like having to jump through hoops and whatnot so I just wanted to get a feel of what that might look like for me. Yeah, no I mean I can I can say, you know our most important constituency right now, I should say right now it's always done the, the student community so the Columbia affiliates are right now the only people that can access our collections. And even if, even if your, your topic isn't particularly, quote unquote academic oriented it's more design or practitioner oriented. We still have a wealth of material that that may align with with your own interest, including working drawings shop drawings blueprints. We have all kinds of all kinds of things within our special collections. You know we have, like I was saying before trade catalogs which again may not align exactly with what you're working on, but it does provide some interesting context and, and then of course our our collections so you know I would love, I know that everybody gets gets to Columbia on their first day and it's a little overwhelming and everyone's very over programmed but you know it's the kind of thing where I would love to welcome somebody who's more in the design sector of GSAP and just sort of show them what we've got and see see what sort of sparks some some some connection but yeah that's something we would absolutely be happy to do for for you. Thank you for the question. So quick point of clarity before the next person starts, I just wanted to mention, there's no limitation to who can access the library based on your major is at GSAP. So there's actually that limitation that you're talking about what hopefully not happen at this institution at all. No that's yeah that's a that's a good point of qualification thank you. You know, you you if you decide you want to do social science or data management or so that's, you know we we are open to everybody. And you will see if you come to Columbia. A lot of people outside of our GSAP and our history archaeology rather departments, a lot of people from outside of these immediate constituencies use our spaces and use our collections, but you know our focus is is on, you know, you guys. Rachel, go ahead. Yes, thank you. Well thank you both for a very fun I guess like an engaging introduction to every. I'm also a prospective student but more in the master's program and I'm looking into architecture and historical preservation. So perhaps this is more directed to Charlotte also but how to please chime in if you have thoughts but I was very engaged with like the library and resources and different things like that I'm curious what you both have seen in terms of the engagement of master's students with your archives or materials, perhaps, both in architecture and preservation and also for you yourself from, you know, your master's experience compared to your PhD obviously your interactions the library has, I'm going to say greatly increased but how you kind of. I don't know have seen that change or your thoughts on kind of the interaction with the archives and if you wish students used it more or in some ways like that I'm just curious. But that's a really good question because it does change. And, you know, I know master students, I guess it also depends on what your specific focus is. If you're, you know, if you're interested in preservation, is it design preservation are you looking at it more so from a historian. perspective, or are you looking at a combination perhaps of both working at a house museum or something equivalent to that. But yeah, I'm in terms of archives, I think it. It also depends on your work for that program and I know that the preservation students they do utilize avery because they have avery is really good about having a lot of special material that you wouldn't necessarily find elsewhere. One of the things that we do for the architecture students for their first year is give them a tour of avery and the tour is more so just a few really good picked out items, not to overwhelm folks but the fact that you have that tactile on engagement with these materials is really important. Also, and I think even outside of avery for. So every can give you these tools to go back to to supplement your work with but the fact that the preservation students also themselves do a lot of work outside of every and Harlem and other neighborhoods also. So you have that physical, um, you have that physical engagement. Oh, and yes, the lab. Thank you for sharing that. And the lab is pretty good about giving folks that studio sort of base education but then you can take it back and look at these different materials that are in avery. Um, my in myself, you're correct in assuming that my relationship with the library has increased dramatically. I've read so many books in the past three and a half years that I've been here that or let me say not necessarily read front of the cover but know these books. Um, but it's interesting because the more I move from the library the better through the library the better I get at finding resources and becoming more comfortable. I think a lot of students, especially with libraries like every because there's so much material there. And there's a level of prestige that's associated with the material because it's so rare that it feels intimidating, but the more that you get yourself in the library, and you're right there in the environment reading and you're going to you know the rare books, you're you're becoming more comfortable with looking at these materials that you'll get even better as a researcher and finding not necessarily tricks but different types of tips and advice of how to make your research better. The library was really helpful in terms of helping students during COVID. I don't know if you said this in the beginning of your presentation Hannah sorry I missed it but giving the students at GSAP of links to help them do online research, because we also have a lot of scan materials and then by Association, your affiliation with Columbia you have access to these materials I would take a lot of damage of them because you wouldn't necessarily get them elsewhere. And I mean in one in particular, I found a 17th century document about the gradual abolition of slavery in Germantown online so there are things like that, that you want to through the Columbia blog that you wouldn't necessarily find elsewhere and have access to so these things, these non architectural documents are accessible. Like the more that you become comfortable with researching and just the logistics of figuring out numbers of call numbers like what to look for and databases which databases to look at, you'll find you'll start to find material that is more it's like appropriate for your research but then also maybe you'll find things that you didn't think you would see. And it's also Avery has just been really helpful in terms of my dissertation to start off with actually a lot of the work that I did in with my proposal came from the online resources with Avery. So before we go to Louise's question I'll just mention in like the audio of the meeting since the chat doesn't get recorded that the link that we drop that I dropped was the Historic Preservation Technology Lab which also has specifically a materials library that you can explore and sort of like go through resources of like different kinds of like stones different kinds of fossils like different kinds of building materials. And it's also scanned and so the person who runs the lab also is aware of the collections in the library so they can, you know, mentioned to you like oh if you're interested in this particular type of material based on a paper that you're writing, you know, for some kind of, you know, as an example like the, you know, if you wanted to talk about like the preservation of concrete that was poured in the like the 1960s that there might be a, you know, a sample of the concrete in the Historic Preservation Technology Lab and then that they might also have construction documents from that era in the in the library that the faculty would be aware of and another amazing resource particular to the Historic Preservation Program is Andrew Dahlkert, who is a long time professor here at GSAP who knows the library's collections backwards and forwards and so that's also an incredible resource also as long time faculty who are aware of things in the library's archive that you might not have even thought of meeting or like where to look. So I also highly encourage you to participate in the Historic Preservation specific events and ask questions about how the library works for the faculty too so you can kind of get the other side of what the collections are doing. I'd like to go ahead and invite Louisa to ask their question, you know, verbally or on camera or in text however you'd like since your hand is raised and once we get through that question I think that we'll go ahead and close. Thank you so much for your all of your presentations. I'm really interested in this. I am also a prospective student. I'm currently in the UK, studying my bachelors at the moment, and I'm actually doing my dissertation, like for my third year. So I'm actually having to go through these archives, but what I'm noticing here is that we get like as the university student access to these British National Archives, and all these different buildings archives that we have access to like in London itself. So I was just wondering like outside of Avery as well as New York as a whole like as a Columbia student if we do have access to different kinds of archives as well in different libraries or different buildings in the city. Yeah, that's a that's a great question. Thank you for asking it. Yes, yes and yes. We have a number of consortial relationships. I won't go into the details of them all but we have a special relationship with New York Public Library which has an amazing research archive, the New York Historical Society which has an amazing architectural archive. And so there are lots of lots of lots of people that we collaborate with that we would certainly be able to facilitate visits and whatnot. You know and beyond that we have connections with museum archives through our consortial agreements. If you all of a sudden decided you wanted to study, I don't know, Walter Netsch in Chicago, we could certainly arrange a visit for you with that collection. So we just we just have lots of lots of networks that we work with and I won't bore you guys all with like the list of the names and everything but you know that's absolutely one of our other sort of missions is if we don't have it on site let's figure out how we get you to the collection you need. And the good news is is that when you get so good at this like Charlotte, you will be telling us about archives, and then we will start making connections with those archives and so it's it's kind of like a two-way street in some cases. Also, the taking classes like was mentioned before. I'm taking classes with specific professors who will take you to these archives is very important. I mean, I took Andrew Delcard's American architecture class the first semester of it and I mean he took us down in the Avery and we looked at a carpenter's kit. So just talking about vernacular materials and vernacular engagements with building. But other professors, even in the art history department, so also this is another plug if you don't be shy about taking classes and other programs, because there's more collaboration than what seems to be there on the surface. But I've taken art history classes where they've taken us to historical societies and museums and we've gotten to see the material so the nice thing about going to Columbia is that you do have access to all these different people and then they know the material, like was mentioned before. So you can get that material and then see how this material is accessed so you can see it in the future. This has been really, really fantastic. Thank you so much to Hannah and to Charlotte and to everyone who has watched. I hope that we get to see you here on campus and welcome you to Avery Hall and both the libraries and at the school. If you have any other questions about the library, Hannah, do you just want to drop like the library email into the chat before we put my. Wow, yeah, such access look at this you guys. I'll do the same. Excellent. Thank you so much and if anyone has any questions. You will, you will be able to ask them directly of Hannah thank you so much director of Avery library and Charlotte PhD candidate we really appreciate your time and look forward to seeing you around the library. Thanks guys really welcome. Yeah, bye bye. Hello everybody. I'm, I'm excited to welcome you. Welcome you to our virtual world that is Avery library, the Avery architectural and arts library. What I'm going to do in the next 25 minutes or so is talk to you about some of the resources we have available and some of the words that we do. And then we'll invite one of our PhD colleagues in to talk about how she's navigated not just Avery but a variety of research methodologies that has, you know prompted her into the direction she's gone in so Charlotte Caldwell will join us shortly. What I'm going to do right now is just share my screen. Let me just do that first quickly. Let me do the beginning. So here is our reading room. This is a medium white design reading room. It's been in place for since the late, since the early 19th century. The, the whole, the whole history of the Avery library is based on Henry out in Avery who was a, an architecture student at Columbia, and he was friends with. Professor where who is actually the very first architectural faculty member here at Columbia, Henry out in Avery data and untimely death and his parents turned to the Kim even white and supported the, the building of this collection which is dedicated to Henry out in Avery and as you can see here. This is our reading room and we have about 500,000 volumes on site. Not on site we have much like lots of these larger institutions we have an offsite facility storage facility where a lot of our material lives, and within the Columbia University library system there are about seven or eight different kinds of libraries and I'm sure many of these libraries will attract students in different directions, but the focus of Avery of course is art and architecture and then what you see here is a good chunk of our collection. The other thing I wanted to just share about Avery very quickly is, in addition to our general research collections we also are the stewards of the university art collection. So Alma Mater which is sort of the iconic, you know, sort of signature signature graphic for for Columbia that that actual art that actual sculpture belongs to Avery vis-a-vis our properties collection and so we are in charge of a lot of questions and inquiries and things like that about about this particular piece but about a lot of the public art sculpture and a lot of the art that is in various offices and seminar rooms and you know, hallways and things like that so we have about close to 14,000 objects in our collection and all of it falls within Avery. The other big signature collection or signature piece is our Florian Stettheimer collection and she was a very, very important late 19th, early 20th century artist, and we hold the largest collection of her materials, about 70 to 75 paintings, which, you know, exceeds, obviously other other collections, but it's it's again something that people love to come and look, look to and study, and we were very excited that we've got these, these materials in our collection and it's just an interesting component to to sort of the diversity of what we have to offer. But getting down to architecture. I'm just going to very quickly go through some of our basics. The Avery drawings and archives collection and here's a wonderful sample of a Hugh Ferris rendering for Lincoln Center. Our drawings and archives collection amounts to about 900 collections with a lot of focus on New York City. Not not entirely but the majority of the focuses is on that and it includes things going from McKim, Mead and White, you know we have some of their holdings through. We also have the Library of Lloyd Wright which was a very recent acquisition. We also hold materials and archives, ranging from Shadrach Woods to James Winters site to HLW so we, we are very, very, very active in representing the built environment and historical design production through the New York and our Avery Classics collection, which is, it sounds, when you think of classics you think like Homer or Pacific Beads or something like that. Classics in this case means classics in terms of architectural monuments and publishing. So here's just a few examples of what we have there. As a restorer, photo books is one one component. And then we have lots of trade, trade catalogs which are so important to historic preservationists in particular, but you know in the larger field in you would be surprised by how many, how many trade catalogs that we have and who designed them, they range from the Luciae, Frank Lloyd Wright, Paul Rudolph, I mean it's just it extends the gamut and it's just really interesting window into the real technical sort of decorative aspect of design. And we have a bunch of them in our Classics collection. This actually the one on the left here is right out of the Luciae trade catalog for his wallpaper. You know I'm not sure how you would sort this one out on your wall but it's, there it is, how exciting. And it's one of many, many designs within his trade catalog and we also hold many, many of the Surleo Manus unpublished manuscripts which is another really exciting, exciting feature of our collection. So basically within our, from our general collections to our special collections, it's possible for one person to sort of extend the journey of one kind of inquiry through all of these different formats and media and Charlotte will talk a little bit about how, how she's navigated that with her own research process but these are just some of the things that we, you know, maybe, maybe you won't come to Columbia to study Luciae or Surleo but these are the kinds of things that can certainly inform one's, one's research choices. And I mentioned we have the Frank Lloyd Wright archive which extends to about 55,000 drawings, many thousands of leaves of manuscripts and correspondence and multimedia files. It's right now the largest archive of American architect and luckily for us it's all processed and available for, for study and, you know, as you might imagine we get tons of, tons of inquiries from all over the place, not just from our students here at Columbia but from homeowners, from scholars from an international community, particularly interested in Wright and so it's, it's created a really interesting challenge for us in terms of mission and what, how do we, how do we handle, how do we handle this volume but nevertheless the important thing is to give researchers recourse to these, these collections and our, our immediate student community is at the forefront of that access point. And finally I just want to point out. A lot of people don't know this but our, the Avery Index to Architectural and Periodical Literature is housed right here in Avery. James Subcheck is on our, on our call today he's the new editor of the Avery Index. Traditionally, the Avery Index has served as a register for what we collect what we have on site or what we subscribe to. But, you know, we have a lot of opportunity now worth with the help of students and with the help of our new editor to think about extending the boundaries a little bit more of, of what it is we want, you know, recorded and made available. The Avery Index has obviously a lot of impact, you know, we get a lot of requests for from from titles and serials and whatnot to be included because you know if you can be included in the Avery you obviously have a lot of impact and we take those those requests very seriously but it's also an opportunity for us to think about like how do we move forward and target those kinds of voices and those kinds of areas of scholarship that we may not necessarily have strengths in but it's something that the index should so there's a bit of a tough point now with, with the index and every sort of traditional collecting patterns. And so here's just a quick example of some of the things that, you know, we're thinking about, you know, we don't necessarily have all of these on our shelves but maybe we should and and this will really ensure that our Avery Index stays relevant and immediate to people studying the built environment. So that's a whole lot of information there about about Avery in like 10 seconds or less. Yeah. So, Charlotte, can you, can you like, can you tune in, can you. Yeah, okay, okay, I was having the same problem. So, I think with all of that with that sort of landscape established I'm going to ask Charlotte to just tell you all a little bit about the work she's been doing and, you know, some of it has, you know, taken her away from Avery but the last these research methodologies and these lines of inquiry I think are so exciting and, you know, I think really speak to just what what what's possible with with the GSAP program so punch it over to you Charlotte thank you. Yeah, and thanks Hannah for inviting me to do this I've always really appreciated Avery and just the work that you've done in particular Hannah. And just how open you are about expanding the collection and to be as accessible as possible to students so um yeah like Hannah said I'm going to talk a bit about my dissertation topic and some of the research methods that I'm using the past for this particular topic and what I'm planning to use in the future. And so I'm a fourth year PhD candidate studying architectural history of Avery here at Columbia. And my, my dissertation focuses on a comprehensive, well hopefully a comprehensive study of the architectural history of the African Methodist Episcopal Church. And not only a comprehensive architectural study of this church but then also how architectural practices and projects and discussions with Amy leadership and folks who attended Amy churches so the congregants. How their perceptions, either contradicted or reflected dominant perceptions of blackness through building, what I like to call the cultural building, because it's it's more so than just architecture and building. It's changing values over time that are reflected in the bill environment. And I said in the past for this because I am, I have a master's degree and preservation from Penn. So, and I also do preservation work on the side. There is one church in particular Baptist church that used to be an AME church in Germantown Philadelphia that I've been working on. That's also part of this whole architectural story. And for me what's important to get across for this dissertation is not only showing racialized minorities participating in the cultural building. But also making this topic as accessible as possible to folks who don't study architecture and who might be interested in it. And then people who do study it and seeing different ways that we can talk about American architecture through different lenses that are not necessarily a few well placed monuments that we all know about. Which is a line that I stole from Andrew Delcart, who's great. So I have to call him on that. But in particular, I guess I would, I would call myself a preservationist and a public historian in this respect because while written documents are very much important to get at the idea of training, changing values and trends and architectural design. And this particular project because it's focused on a religious institution and the black church capital B capital C, one aspect of the back of the black church, I have to use other archival methods. And in particular, some of the archival material that's actually really helpful in terms of teasing out this perception of blackness and building have been church. It's been 18 minutes for the conferences and national conferences that were held from the beginning of the church's history so 1816. And the dissertation itself over the 1930s. So those are really important because you have a means talking to each other about the importance of aesthetic and design and their buildings. But then also how are they going to fund projects in order to not just spread Christianity or their brand Christianity, but to support communities. And what's really interesting about the AME church, especially in building history is that it's older than the institution itself. The Ames began in Philadelphia, when the black community, their black Methodists were attending the prominent Methodist Church in the late 18th century, St. And they were discriminated against, although the Methodist, the Methodist Episcopal Church at the time was actually more accepting different types of people but there was still a level of discrimination. So the black Methodists led by people like Richard Allen, and then also absolutely Jones but then he stayed with the Anglican Church and had his own church but specifically Richard Allen, he writes in his autobiography that he and a team of people called a blacksmith shop to the corner of six and one part in Philadelphia and then repurposed that into a meeting house and then they invited a Bishop Francis Ashbury who was kind of this, I think he was the first American bishop not entirely sure. Don't quote me on that but the fact that they had this connection with a pretty important Bishop from the AME church to come to their church to give the first sermon before the church was officially established in 1816. It has a level of a significance about how important this place was for black Methodists, and then African Methodist Episcopalians. So, and that meeting house is now called Mother Bethel but the history of that place is interesting because it's also the oldest continuously owned property in the United States by black people. So this is a meeting house, and then they got funding for a second house or a second building that was built in 1805. A third building that was built in 1841, and then the building that's there right now is a Romanesque church is built in 1889, all on the same property. There has the church itself in the archives that are in the bottom of the church, there's a stained glass window that has which right on the middle of it and then this building history surrounding him. So you can see that the just from that stained glass window that it's really important that there's this association with respectability and building and property ownership. Because if you know anything about American history in order to be considered American there's always this association with property. Unfortunately, there's also a class dimension to this because people like Richard Allen actually own their own houses and their own property. So you have this level, this hierarchy that seen throughout the church that does not or just goes to show to the fact that black Americans are not a model if even in church culture that there are certain types of people who become the leadership who dictate the rules, who buy their property, etc, etc. And then there are other people who have everyday relationships with these buildings. And that's something that's really important to me that I want to get across in this dissertation and it's not even just about mother buffalo because mother buffalo has been documented to the largest extent because of how important it is for church history, church history in general, not just black church history, but just showing that the ams and all our different districts, they were building within the American building but was what was important for them for that specific region for that specific locality that specific neighborhood and then also when they sent their missionaries abroad, especially in Haiti and Africa, they also incorporated different types of Americaness in their building so there's this also this sort of complicated murky association with American imperialism and black people so it's it's interesting in the sense that if you do any research on the AME church, you'll find histories about the founders history about gender politics. The first female bishop wasn't ordained until 2008. And history is about the, the whole history of a church but nothing necessarily about this preoccupation with building like it's mentioned in text, but you never ever grapple from it from an architectural history perspective and then also this theoretical speculation on blackness and So, like I mentioned before, church proceedings are actually really important for this deeds. So, this is all coming from a preservationist background that I have looking at non architectural texts in order to get the whole story for architecture and I think it also it opens it opens you up to a wide range of how people participate or engage with building that's not necessarily from, you know, you know, like, Andrew Jackson Downey or Frank Lloyd Wright, even though these people are important, because they're all part of American architecture, but showing how other people participated in building is just adding into the story, making the whole story like I said, deeds autobiographies of important people in the AME church Richard Allen has dedicated a page and a half to the architectural history of the first AME church and the first historian of AME church actually talks about the architectural history of mother Bethel. So, it's there, you just have to use these different sources that we don't see in in university or in class. Hopefully someday someday soon. Well, get to see these texts to show us this different side of building. Yeah, I mean, that's that's such a great, great snapshot of just how this will sound really reductive and I don't mean it to but you know what I what I love about people studying architectural history now is, you know, it's just going off into these really sort of interdisciplinary directions and that's not new I mean it's been happening for a while but it's now you know I think through the programs with G SAP and the kinds of things that Charlotte and her colleagues have been working on it's just really going in super super interesting directions that you know we haven't necessarily thought about and why that's important to Avery is because it really makes me think about like okay. Wow, you know maybe these are areas that we should start focusing on in terms of collecting I mean we yes we are an architectural register for New York City production, historically, but maybe we need to move beyond that, because we certainly want to mirror and reflect on what our students are doing. And that's so so important and that kind of engagement is really really important to me. And so it's just so exciting to to hear about charlotte's work and we're both from Philly so I love, I'm not sure about it anyway. I'm a fake Philadelphia, but maybe it's my second home I should say that, but yes, Philadelphia. If anyone's from Philadelphia you will not ever have to pay book fees very good. I'm just kidding. I'm just kidding. I guess we have just a couple of minutes for questions or thoughts if anyone wants to share anything or ask anything we're ready and waiting for your for your questions. So I will now allow people to unmute themselves and start their right. But just a quick note that since I'm this is being recorded. If you do turn on your camera or unmute yourself that will be captured in the video of the proceedings just you know, but you're also welcome if you prefer not to be, you know, on camera. You're welcome to enter a question to the chat at any time as well. So everyone should have access to your own microphones and cameras now if you'd like to join the dialogue. So if you have any questions about you know what specifically is in the collection what it's like to work in your libraries, other libraries on campus, a few specific research interests, we invite your questions. And while we're waiting for questions, I will just like get to the sort of nitty gritty here and we make sure that all of the, you know, graduate students that come into the the programs within GSAP and art history. So you have your dedicated workspace. A lot of our collection doesn't circulate so that's really important. Some of it does, we've had to change things a little bit since COVID. And, you know, we're, we are the, you know, one of the largest architectural libraries in the country so there are the resources are pretty a pretty bottomless but that's not to say we don't have everything we don't have anything and we should look to new areas too so it's an important opportunity for collaboration. Alright since no questions are coming in I'll ask a question. Charlotte and Hannah do you want to talk a little bit about what it is. There's sort of like interactions between like PhDs and graduate students. I think that that's something that is a, oh it looks like someone has unmuted themselves I'm not sure if they were ready to ask a question but I'd love to hear a little bit more about just since you're here Charlotte of how you have been interacting with graduate students at GSAP. And, you know, within the historic preservation department or across kind of different programs I think that that would be a great addition to the conversation. I know that's a really good question and a lot of my interaction comes from, well, probably 100% of it comes from teaching. I, I've taught the core architectural history class that's the master students have to take their first year twice. Well, I guess you could say four times of course and messers but the thing is is that it's good. Being the master students that way, especially through section. I've also taught in other programs, and my interactions with other programs have been through teaching, but also just specific projects that I've worked on especially in preservation with future interior and the academic journal that their director, Jorge Jorge, Ontario Palace is the editor of. And then also working with the PhDs there that have also introduced me to the master students who are interested in a lot of the questions that I'm interested in, and especially with social justice through preservation. And that does take like a public history approach, but I'm going back to teaching. I always try to make a point of being, I guess you'll hear me say, being as accessible as possible. Teaching is really important to me, just from my past history. And I can learn a lot from my students. I'm trying them talk about what's really important to them, or what they find interesting, and just trying to get them to think about architecture just building in different ways, and that there's still historical approach to it but that we can think outside of the box which I think they appreciate being GSAP students. Well, I think since we're not receiving any new questions maybe Hannah I'll ask you for your final thoughts. Yeah, all I can say is that the Avery you know it's got this international standing it's really an important collection it's a thrill to come here every day. It's not that we've been so locked down, and I've had to, you know, shelter the collections in the way we have but my feeling is the collection is only as good as we, you know, as only as good as we can reflect what students are studying today and you know this kind of engagement with what like Charlotte is working on which is super exciting and what so many others in the program are studying, you know, we're really having great conversations about how, how we should be really moving in new directions. And, you know, the whole digital realm of course is really, it's very vexing, you know, getting getting architectural archives now in these digital formats is kind of tricky and so how do we accommodate that and these are just not just like sort of operational questions but it's it's also really important to talk to students to figure out like, Okay, so how, how would you want this accessible and discoverable. So, that's just all to say that, you know, I've been at Avery now for just under two years. And, you know, I really look forward to working with students going forward and figuring out how we, you know, keep keep Avery moving forward I mean we like I said can stand on what we've done well in the past but that's only going to get us so far and your your contributions are going to be amazing. But I see their hands up now so that's awesome. Yeah, you do you want to unmute yourself and ask your question first and then we'll go with Rachel afterwards. Sure. Hello. Oh, okay. Hi, I am a prospective grads applicant. So, most of the programs that I am probably interested in are not necessarily research or dissertation based, but at the same time you know I've been writing for the last few years and like research is still part of my personal work. So I was wondering, and you know what kind of resources might be available for me, you know, like it's the entire database kind of pretty much open I know like in previous institutions I've been in. You know I haven't had like the most easy access to maybe some of the archives, you know without you know like having to jump through hoops and whatnot so I just wanted to get a feel of what that might look like for me. You know, I mean I can say, you know our most important constituency right now, I should say right now it's always done the, the student community so the Columbia affiliates are right now the only people that can access our collections. So even if, even if your topic isn't particularly quote unquote academic oriented it's more design or practitioner oriented. We still have a wealth of material that that may align with with your own interest including working drawings shop drawings blueprints. We have all kinds of things within our special collections. You know we have, like I was saying before trade catalogs which can may not align exactly with what you're working on, but it does provide some interesting context and, and then of course our our collection so you know I would love. I know that everybody gets gets to Columbia on their first day and it's a little overwhelming and everyone's very over programmed but you know it's the kind of thing where I would love to welcome somebody who's more in the design sector of G SAP and just sort of show them what we've got and see see what sort of sparks some some some connection but yeah that's something we would absolutely be happy to do for for you. Thank you for the question. Just as a quick point of clarity before the next person starts, I just wanted to mention. There's no limitation to who can access the library based on what your major is at G SAP. So, there's actually that limitation that you're talking about what hopefully not happen at this institution at all. That's a that's a good point of qualification. Thank you. No you you if you decide you want to do social science or data management or so that's you know we are open to everybody. And you will see if you come to Columbia, a lot of people outside of our G SAP and our history or theology rather departments, a lot of people from outside of these immediate constituencies use our spaces and use our collections, but you know our focus is is on, you know, you guys. Rachel, go ahead. Yes, thank you. Well thank you both for a very fun I guess like an engaging introduction to every. I'm also a prospective student but more in the master's program and I'm looking into architecture and historical preservation. So perhaps this is more directed to Charlotte also but how to please chime in if you have thoughts but I guess coming from an undergraduate experience I was like very engaged with like the library and resources and different things like that I'm curious what you both have seen in terms of the engagement of master students with your archives or materials, perhaps, both an architecture and preservation and also for Charlotte if you yourself from you know your master's experience compared to your PhD obviously your interactions the library has, I'm going to say greatly increased but how you kind of. I don't know have seen that change or your thoughts on kind of the interaction with the archives and if you wish students used it more or in some ways like that I'm just curious. That's a really good question because it does change. I'm, you know I know master students, I guess it also depends on what your specific focus is, if you're, you know, you're interested in preservation. Is it design preservation are you looking at it more so from a historian perspective or are you looking at a combination perhaps of both working at a house museum or something equivalent to that. Yeah, I'm in terms of archives, I think it. It also depends on your work for that program and I know that the preservation students they do utilize avery because they have avery is really good about having a lot of special material that you wouldn't necessarily find elsewhere. One of the things that we do for the architecture students for their first year is give them a tour of avery and the tour is more so just a few really good picked out items, not to overwhelm folks but the fact that you have that tactile and engagement with these materials is really important. But then also, um, I think even outside of avery for so every can give you these tools to go back to to supplement your work with but the fact that I'm the preservation students also themselves do a lot of work outside of every and Harlem and neighborhoods also. So you have that physical, um, you have that physical engagement. Oh, and yes, the lab. Thank you for sharing that. The lab is pretty good about giving folks that studio sort of base education but then you can take it back and look at these different materials that are in avery. My in myself, you're correct in assuming that my relationship with the library has increased dramatically. I've read so many books in the past three and a half years that I've been here that or let me say not necessarily read front of the cover but know these books. But it's interesting because the more I moved from the library the better through the library the better I get at finding resources and becoming more comfortable. I think a lot of students, especially with libraries like every because there's so much material there. And there is a level of prestige that's associated with the material because it's so rare that it feels intimidating, but the more that you get yourself in the library. And you're right there in the environment reading, and you're going to you know the rare books, you're looking at items. You're becoming more comfortable with looking at these materials that you'll get even better as a researcher and finding not necessarily tricks but different types of tips and advice of how to make your research better. And also avery was really helpful in terms of helping students during coven. I don't know if you said this in the beginning of your presentation Hannah sorry I missed it but giving the students at GSAP of links to help them do online research, because we also have a lot of scan materials and then by association, your affiliation with Columbia you have access to these materials I would take advantage of them because you wouldn't necessarily get them elsewhere. And I mean, in one in particular, I found 17th century document about the gradual abolition of slavery in Germantown online so there are things like that, that you wouldn't through the Columbia catalog that you wouldn't necessarily find elsewhere and have access to so these things, these non architectural documents are accessible. You just like the more that you become comfortable with researching and just the logistics of figuring out numbers of call numbers like what to look for and databases which databases to look at, you'll find you'll start to find material that is more appropriate for your research but then also maybe you'll find things that you didn't think you would see. And it's also avery has just been really helpful in terms of my dissertation to start off with actually a lot of the work that I did in with my proposal came from the online resources with avery. Before we go to Louisa's question I'll just mention in like the audio of the meeting since the chat doesn't get recorded that the link that we drop that I dropped was the historic preservation technology lab which also has specifically a materials library that you can explore and sort of like go through resources of like different kinds of like stones different kinds of fossils like different kinds of building materials. And it's also scanned and so the person who runs the lab also is aware of the collections in the library so they can, you know, mention to you like oh if you're interested in this particular type of material based on a paper that you're talking about for some kind of, you know, as an example like the, you know, if you wanted to talk about like the preservation of concrete that was poured in the like the 1960s that there might be a, you know, a sample of the concrete in the historic preservation technology lab and then that they might also have construction documents from that era in the in the library that the faculty would be aware of and another amazing resource particular to the historic preservation program is Andrew Dulkert, who is a long time professor here at GSTAP who knows the library's collections backwards and forwards and so that's also an incredible resource also is longtime faculty who are aware of things in the library's archive that you might not have even thought of meeting or like where to look. So I also highly encourage you to participate in the historic preservation specific events and ask questions about how the library works for the faculty to so you can kind of get the other side of what the collections are doing. I'd like to go ahead and invite Louisa to ask their question, you know, verbally or on camera or in text however you'd like since your hand is raised and once we get through that question I think that we'll go ahead and close. Thank you so much for your all of your presentations. I'm really interested in this I am also a prospective student I'm currently in the UK. I'm studying my bachelor's at the moment, and I'm actually doing my dissertation, like for my third year. So I'm actually having to go through these archives. But what I'm noticing here is that we get like as the university student access to these British National Archives, and different buildings archives that we have access to like in London itself. So I was just wondering like outside of Avery as well as New York as a whole like as a Columbia student if we do have access to different kinds of archives as well in different libraries or different buildings in the city. Yeah, that's a great question. Thank you for asking it. Yes, yes and yes. We have a number of consortia relationships. I won't go into the details of them all but we have a special relationship with New York Public Library which has an amazing research archive, the New York Historical Society which has an amazing architectural archive. And so there are lots of lots of lots of people that we collaborate with that we would certainly be able to, you know facilitate visits and whatnot. And on that we have connections with museum archives through our consortial agreements. If you all of a sudden decided you wanted to study, I don't know Walter Netsch in Chicago, we could certainly arrange a visit for you with that collection. We just we just have lots of lots of networks that we work with and I won't bore you guys all with like the list of the names and everything but you know that's absolutely one of our other sort of missions is, if we don't have it on site let's figure out how we get you to the collection you need. And the good news is is that when you get so good at this like Charlotte, you will be telling us about archives, and then we will start making connections with those archives to. So it's it's kind of like a two street in some cases. Um, the taking classes like was mentioned before on taking classes with specific professors who will take you to these archives is very important. I mean, I took Andrew Delcard American architecture class. The first semester of it and I mean he took us down neighboring and we looked at a carpenter's kit. So just talking about vernacular materials and vernacular engagements with building. But other professors, even in the art history department. So, also this is another plug if you don't be shy about taking classes and other programs, because there's more collaboration than what seems to be there on the surface, but I've taken three classes where they've taken us to historical societies and museums and we've gotten to see the material so the nice thing about going to Columbia is that you do have access to all these different people and then they know the material, like was mentioned before, so you can get that material and then see how this materials access so you can see it in the future. It's been really, really fantastic. Thank you so much to Hannah and to Charlotte and to everyone who has watched. I hope that we get to see you here on campus and welcome you to every hall and both the libraries and at the school. Do you have any other questions about the library, Hannah do you just want to drop like the library email into the chat before we put my phone. Wow. Yeah, such access look at this you guys. I'll do the same. Excellent. Thank you so much and if anyone has any questions. You will, you will be able to ask them directly of Hannah thank you so much director of every library and charlotte PhD candidate we really appreciate your time and look forward to seeing you around the library. Alright, thanks guys really welcome. Yeah, bye bye.