 And we're back with the breakfast and plus TV Africa. Thank you for staying with us. Let's head to your first major conversation as we have our guests join us this morning. Olapadeh, show me. Well, the outgoing president of the Nigerian Labour Congress, NLC, Mr. Yuba Waba, said Nigerians have been pushed to the world by current scarcity of Naira, nodes and petro scarcity across the country, wanting that the situation should be addressed and must be within the shortest possible time. However, a set that the organized Labour is pushing for an end to importation of petroleum products into the country rather than the reduction in the prices. According to him, rather than seek a reduction in prices of fuel, Labour will seek policy change. In his words, the policy of importation was imposed on Nigerians in 2003 by the International Monetary Fund, IMF. And that is why the prize model of product is based on importation. We're joining us to discuss Niger's fuel importation model and the current scarcity of products being experienced in almost all parts of the country's leading producer of oil is, I guess, Olapadeh, show me, an oil expert from the FCT. Olapadeh, it's good to have you join us. Good morning. Yes, good morning. Right then. It's a pleasure to be here. So how would you react and respond to the thoughts and the position of the Labour Union? Well, the Labour Union has put on in terms of what they have said and what they will seek to achieve. The issue is how would they go about it and how do they expect government to go about it in practical ways? There's nothing wrong in having high and lofty goals. I mean, that's the nature of man. But the issue is where the rubber touches the road, where the practicalities of this thing's coming. Yes, the ideal thing is that we produce. I mean, it's interesting to note the perspective of the IMF in bringing us into this program. But I will say that what is, first of all, important is that there is energy, which in this case is available for daily use. And how can that availability of energy for daily use be substantiated? So I think that's where the issue really is. It's not in the aspiration. It's not in the desire to ensure that foreign importation policy is stopped. So I'd like you to also look at the importation model that we currently are practicing, OK? And juxtaposing that we have what it takes to refine our own product. Do you think that is rational that we have over the years continue to import this product as a gains refining it, which would actually do us a lot of economic good? Well, I mean, definitely that is just plain logic. It's always better for us to refine it. But however, it's just a reality. There are many things that are not working within the Nigerian system. It's not peculiar to the oil and gas industry. It's virtually everywhere. There are some things that are almost like you hitting the self-stop button, whether it's being the pharmaceutical or the health industry, whether it be in the media, whether it be in the energy industry, it's a Nigerian challenge. So yes, that ought not to have been the situation over this amount of time. But unfortunately, that is the reality. So from my own view, and I think that is also should be the view of positive thinking, is that having found ourselves in this situation, rather than looking back and pointing fingers, the question should be, how should we move forward? How should we get to the land or the place where we want to be without necessarily disrupting normal life? I think that should be the question to my mind on this matter. Also, but I don't think that we should just let this slide. For how long will we continue as a country, mountain, ensuring that our front areas? I mean, if you look at all of the excuses that we constantly give and that the NLC has given as well, is that the refineries are not functioning. So we have refineries that are not in the state of producing what they should produce, or not even producing in most cases. And so we have always said, yes, we should be able to have the capacity as a country to refine our products. If you look at how long we have been exploring oil and exporting it as a raw material, are we not ripe for saying we should be able to have our own capacity, we should be able to have refineries. Or we say, yes, we can still refine this product without having to be very dependent on the finished products from outside of the country. So do you think that what is actually hampering this, apart from, I mean, what is hampering refineries not functioning, apart from corruption, is that there might also be an external influence from the IMF and the World Bank? Well, you see, in logic, there's something that's called philosophy of aesthetic generalization. And that, of course, when you come to a conclusion without having representative sample of the facts, there are a number of reasons where the refinery may not be working. And it's simplistic to just say it's corruption. Just like there are many reasons why agencies of government may not be working. It's simplistic to just say it's corruption. I mean, there are many reasons why the Nigerian society is nowhere it is. It's simplistic to just say it's poverty. Now, the point there is this. First and foremost, there is capacity to refine. So the issue is not about capacity. We have been refining for more than 40 years. So the issue is not capacity. The issue, I will speak in terms of facts, is the fact that the refineries are not working. Now, why are the refineries not working? It's very easy to sit here and point fingers and say it's corruption. I mean, that's the easy way. And at least that way, we are able to shed off the responsibility of saying that we don't really know what is happening. Let us investigate what is happening. Let us question what is happening so that we come to the facts. If we do not know what is happening, we will assume. And when we assume, we will come to wrong conclusions. And it will be a case of two wrongs which will never make you right. It is not my place to say this is the details of what is wrong. It is my place to analyze the facts that are on ground. The facts that are on ground is the refineries are not working. Why they may not be working is a whole different bugging. But the point that I am making is that rather than spending time on issues that do not bring results, which is looking into the past, looking for who to blame, looking for who to hang, I believe that positive energy should be spent on how do we resolve the issues going forward. It is possible that in the process of resolving the issues going forward, we may need to look into the past, we may need to address some things. In which case looking into the past will be a positive thing. And looking into the past can now resolve to us moving forward. But looking into the past cannot be the goal. It is looking forward that should be the goal. And that's why I believe that everybody should focus on. That is my own thinking, but I'm sure everybody don't have to agree with that. No, so I mean, the reason why we have some of this conversation is not because we want to have that. We exist for a certain purpose. And that's because we have to speak constantly, you know, a proper solution. We probably might not have access to the, I mean, what's it called again? Have access to the president directly. But you know, this is a medium where you as an expert can actually put out all of that, you know, solution. So if you say that our refineries are not working because we don't lack capacity, it's not because of capacity because we have been producing and that's something to go by. Now, why are refineries not functioning? Is it something that we can fix? I'd like you to share your thoughts on that. Well, I can guess, I can assume, but if we are going to get to the facts of why the refineries are not working, it's not even the president that can help. It is the people at the refineries. It is the person who has the primary number one responsibility for those refineries, the envy of the refineries, the envy of an NPC. They are able to speak to the issues. Because these are, should we say, government agencies or now private organizations, you can't just have access to the information or have access to the operation without them telling you. Even the IOCs, even people can't just have access to the operation. So because they also serve a public good, it is incumbent upon you to also talk to them for them to speak to the details of why the refineries may not be working. This is important in getting the details so that we can speak to facts rather than assume. But what is not in question is that we do not lack capacity. The technical capacity is there in terms of... So how do you know that we have technical capacity? Because that's what I'm explaining to you. Technical capacity is human resource and we have the human resource. We have graduates, we have people with experience. That is technical capacity. So that is not in doubt. Anybody knows that we have graduates and we have the human experience. So that's not in doubt. If we want to go by that postulation, I'm sure that you know what's going on in the banking sector. Right, right now, I mean, prior to this time, it feels like right now we're experiencing, we're experiencing all of the happenings in the banking sector at a certain level. It's like at the crescendo. That's exactly what's going on in terms of services. Right, but there will still be argument that we have graduates around. We have IT professionals on one of you. So what exactly could be responsible for that? You see, earlier I spoke to something. I said fallacy of AST generalization. There are many factors that can be responsible for something. The fact that we have not found the solution of what is responsible does not mean that we will hang the fault on something. IT is a science. If they have the capacity, they have the capacity. But now speaking to the, I mean, speaking to the banking sector, there are a number of reasons. There's infrastructure limitations. There is cultural limitations because what people are, what the CBN and the banks are trying to introduce is actually a change in lifestyle, is a change in culture. And if the people who are supposed to use this life. So I understand where you're coming from, but I don't think that, the point that we're as a country, I think that it's very important that we're very honest with ourselves and be objective in what we do, speaking truth to power and try not to be, I don't really know how to put it down for the want of words and just to be on check. But I think that we should not be acting. I know that Nigeria as a country we're developing, we probably might not be the best. So it's not like people wake up and say that we just wake up and assume that it's because the refineries are not working because of corruption. There is corruption. These are proven facts. We probably may not have time to go through all of the corruption that's going on in the system. We also probably, you have also stated that we have the capacity to produce. I mean, if you have the refineries, prior to this time we have been producing. This is not the first time, we're not a country that just existed in 2020 or 2021 or 2022. Oil exploration, exploitation has been going on for a very long time. For, I mean, as long as I was in existence, 1950 something, we have been talking about exploring oil and what have you, up until this moment. We still do not have, we can't categorically boast that we have what it takes to even refine what we can consume. Now we're here, we don't have petrol, it's scarce. For whatever reason, there's no concrete explanation from the ministry, which has been dedicated to cater to this. And then, would it be fair on our part to come and say, it feels like we don't know what the problem is, that's what we're saying. We haven't been able, we don't have access to it and we can't speak to it. No, we know what the problems are, we know what it is. And I don't think that it's fair on us to just, you know, sit back and continue to say we don't know what it is, we have to find the way. So we constantly, I really don't think that's fair. Look at what we're exactly going through now. Now, including the empire, the saddled with the responsibility of conducting an elections, they are already complaining that the scarcity of petroleum products, which we depend on highly, the power houses, power businesses, because the energy sector has failed, we don't have it. And so there might just be a case that that would affect the elections. And elections that an empire should have, we had four years as a country to plan for. So we're going to be complaining of no petrol, that that's going to be a problem. And yet we still say that we don't know what is wrong. So I really don't think that that's fair on a part, but we have to go now. Thank you so much for being part of the show this morning. Olubode, show me. We have the next guest to join us. We have to go. I hope that we have this conversation some other time. No problem. My name is Olubode, show me, thank you. Well, that's the size of a conversation on this segment. Take a break. When we return, we'll be right back to discuss further. And at this particular time, we'll be looking at health concerns. Please stay with us.