 think-tech Hawaii welcome one and all now the main topic of this program is generally just straight energy efficiency but another great way of reducing energy use in the first place is reusing the item that was manufactured in this case we're talking about reusing buildings because it takes a heck of a lot of time and energy to tear down the building dispose get all the new components so far so far much much much better to reuse it in the first place and I have a local expert in that field mr. Eddie Ebert principal manager of rim architects here in downtown Honolulu welcome Eddie thanks for being on the show here thank you our thank you for having me it's my pleasure you know we met each other by talking about the reuse or the use of albezia wood those of you not familiar albezia is an exotic species that literally sprung up here it grows like mad especially in moist areas and it's a nuisance in that sense but it also has a shallow root system so when we get big tree heavy rain and heavy wind boom if you hear about a tree falling it's albezia well there's one entrepreneur locally who is now making use of the albezia and he and mr. Ebert know one another and then mr. Ebert is now specifying albezia products wherever he can in the buildings that he deals with mr. Ebert please tell us how you are using albezia so far and maybe what prospects you see in the future for albezia certainly yeah and I think that Joey Valenti from albezia project would be a great guest for you Howard I really enjoyed meeting him and discussing we actually met at the aia lecture that was sponsored by the committee on the environment COTE is the acronym where they do wonderful lectures the one that we joined was at the Center for Architecture at the AI headquarters in Honolulu so I'm really happy for that committee to be providing to the public some of these innovative entrepreneurs who are focused on environment and resiliency and an adaptive reuse of both materials invasive species that just leads to multiple beneficial effects for the environment and for the white people and for and for local art so it was a it was a pleasure to be there and I'm happy to be here with you on the show so in terms of albezia products directly we don't have too much exposure to it is new and innovative like like you had just mentioned but we did recommend albezia for the gym that was done at one hotel in Honolulu and that was a direct recommendation to the owner rim architecture is not involved in that project other than to to recommend the albezia project for the adaptive reuse gym and that's where do you remember the photos he showed from that Howard yeah yeah they're very very colorful good good looking wood that's for sure yeah so it was a full gym set up that had basically that the weights themselves the plates were made out of albezia wood which is a law which is a hard durable wood that then he had to fill with lead and shortly to get the exact ratios down but it's a fully functional working gym that was important for the owner of that property to have that sustainability piece and the connection with the outdoors but specifically to have it be reclaimed wood from kawaii manufactured in Hawaii was extremely important in just a wonderful story so that's one example another example Howard is we were doing one of our clients is working up in Waimea Valley and part of their scope is to is to construct a traditional Hawaiian haul it and they have albezia trees on their property so this is very early in the development but I'm going to introduce Joey and the albezia projects to Waimea Valley to see if they might be able to harvest albezia within the valley reuse it and then construct a traditional Hawaiian Hale that will be used for educational purposes for school children and visitors alike wow that's that can be quite inspirational yeah and you serve a dual purpose you're eliminating at least a few trees there because they they do especially moist areas they grow prolifically absolutely yeah and the hotel you mentioned it was the owner striving for a lead certification by the chance was this one a checkbook the owner did get their lead certification and then they're continuing to to aspire for that so there's additional phases of work that's that's going to be coming and lead is part of that criteria for what they would like to see in both the design and the construction and the ongoing use of the building because the programming is as important as as the design and the construction of it so how you actually operate the building is as key as the materials and techniques that you specify as is as important as them actually being documented and and sourced correctly and built correctly and then once the certification happens how the building is operated that definitely yeah yeah lead is a very very comprehensive program there so do you I'd be I would imagine that you do other lead projects also we do yeah it oftentimes the lead lead projects that we have we have at rim rim has five offices so we started in Alaska in 86 and then went to Guam in 87 and then came to Hawaii in 2000 and went to the mainland from here so from in 2001 we went to San Francisco and we had the first lead and resilient certified building in San Francisco 85 blocks of evidence so we're very proud of that and we find that there's many many projects that we that we have are are going for multiple certifications but another current one we have on the books is is the UH Cancer Center it was originally built in 2013 I believe it was a lead gold and they had some shelved space some interior space that was it was never built out they it's inside the shell of the building but the floor the floor plates are empty and we have a project to bring a phase one clinical trial center so you're basically taking the research from cancer center bringing it to patients here in Hawaii and it's utilizing an NIH grant with matching state legislative funds and it is um it will be the lead certified and it says is it actually going to be a clinic where medical work is done it is it will be an outpatient clinic outpatient okay so you know it occurs to me neither of us defined lead can you give us a little background here because you know part of our jargon but not part of everybody's jargon absolutely lead is a state is an acronym it's L E E D and it stands for leadership in energy and environmental design and it is a program that is endorsed or certified through an organization called the U.S. Green Building Council they're based in Washington D.C. and they're they've basically been a seismic shift in how buildings are designed constructed and used so many of the facets that they put into place that they started probably more than a generation ago have now become the standard for how we design so they've they've seismically shifted the way that buildings are designed sourced and constructed so they are um they're critical to assessing climate change meeting ESG bulls they enhance resilience supporting more equitable communities so they reduced contribution to global global climate change they enhance individuals human health they protect and restore water resources they protect enhanced biodiversity they promote sustainable regenerative material cycles reducing off-gassing and other toxic materials and then ultimately they enhance the community way of life quality of life and they they advocate for building reuse they advocate for density they advocate for public transportation a lot of the things that that are that are already happening here in Hawaii I incorporate many many of these lead concepts that were pioneered by U.S. Green Building Council and I'm proud to say that the I work for the state government and for the specifications for new construction if you're doing a state building is you don't know the exact language but you must aspire to design for lead and I think the caveat when economically feasible but a lot of the new state buildings and I believe the city buildings also are designed with lead specifications and as Mr. Ebert described it's a very great broad broad environmental approach there yeah and and it is a reminder how did it cost money right but they incorporate you know life cycle cost analysis oftentimes into their into their designs and the idea is that the the energy savings and the the passive heating cooling the increased insulation and just the the benefit to the environment will pay for itself over time yeah that oftentimes is true but there there oftentimes is a higher upfront cost there's a higher investment to it so it attracts a certain type of of owner operator or developer one that one is looking to hold the the asset for a long time because often just from the design standpoint it can add you know up to 10 percent to a design fee and obviously a contractor then would need to source usually higher quality materials or locally sourced or sustainable materials which also has increased costs and then the documentation of it is an added cost obviously the the benefit off it out ways that investment which pays for itself or should theoretically but I appreciate what you just said which was the state mandates that that that buildings are what was the word you used it was a lead it attainable or the uh yes when economically feasible right generally speaking I hear about new state buildings coming up they are being at least designed to lead yeah I appreciate that because if you mandate it then it can be counterproductive right and it can just increase the cost of of living for anyone in Hawaii because those costs of development get passed on to the consumer that or the tenant uh the military often does the does something similar which which uh they designed to to lead state standards or they actually use the UFC which is unified facility criteria and they have a chapter on sustainability that talks about that as well that says that when economically feasible they will incorporate these sustainability the sustainable design concepts and as I understand it the military does have a budget so I believe a lot of the new military structures are going up like that absolutely they are it makes sense because they're long-term owners they're the ones that need to operate maintain it it makes a economical sense operational sense so many factors to it um and it's a responsible use of taxpayer money um yeah we can talk about military investment or military um military initiatives when it comes to green green energy use as well Howard I don't need to sidetrack it too much but I know that there's the military alpha gets a bad rap based on its um sometimes environmental record and oftentimes you hear about you know these um catastrophes that that hit the news but really when it comes to uh to sustainable energy or renewable resources you know the Department of Defense is probably has it in their interest to find a renewable energy resource to wean themselves from their dependency on oil more than anybody because if you'd imagine you know the the the great cost that they go through to ensure that their that their vehicles and bases are are able to be operated at remote locations if they could find a 100% renewable um power resource that would be um incredibly beneficial to them yeah much easier when you design like that much easier to become what we call zero net energy versus you have photovoltaic panels as well and your energy use is so low in the first place that you're able to make that up with photovoltaic panels plus battery storage to keep keep you through the night I had a recent guest who specializes in uh what do they call it remote deployment where suddenly the military has to go to a remote area usually in a poor country and set up an airfield or to you know get to meet some emergency and they have made that whole airfield complex so efficient that they're able to be totally totally energy independent and they can set it up in days also not another uh tribute to to energy efficiency what uh what sort of lead buildings do you have around here in Hawaii um the one currently on the board is is at the cancer center um and then most of our most of our other sustainable buildings have been have been done through our military portfolio which again they're they're designed to uh the sustainable standards of the government but they do not they step they they take one step short they don't actually get the lead certification for it so and it occurs to me you know one benefit side benefit of lead design is generally these buildings are healthier the air flowing through it it's a good amount of air and it's pure air and i'm thinking of the cancer center this is outpatient you want that environment to be clean and healthy sounds like you're meeting those specs here for sure and there's another there's another aspect to building environment that's important that may have been an offshoot from lead i'm not sure exactly how it came from or where it came came up but it's the concept of well certification i think we we talked about that a little bit a few years yes and that the well certification basically talks about how it applies to sites of the physical and social environment to benefit the health and well being and the performance of the people in the building a simple way that i look at that is that the lead certification has to do with the building's impact on the environment in terms of being coming from sustainable sources increased water retention um preventing storm rod offs improving the quality of the air in the building like you just mentioned improving the quality of the water of the for the occupants improving thermal energy performance reducing energy usage looking at lifecycle performance of the of where the materials are actually coming from um well list well cert well list certification talks about the the impact of the building on the people on the occupants which is part of lead but this this this is more of um health and humanity focus so it's the impact of the building on the person so that has to do with quality of air quality of light circadian rhythms um programming healthy food options clean water um you know breaks it has to do with with how that building is operated and how the people uh are treated within the within the building itself so that's another great um great aspect that again the cancer center was looking into for the well certification but that ended up being a value engineered out of the design process well i know that most health centers and i'm thinking particularly of retirement homes uh a view to the outdoors is mandatory in many many of those areas and particularly retirement homes uh people don't get out much and so if you have a big view of what's going on in the outdoors you're able to keep your circadian rhythm and it also generally has a very soothing effect on the uh occupants of the building absolutely absolutely correct yeah we humans evolved over at least 150 000 years and it was only in the last few years that we began spending out the majority of our time indoors and even in healthy Hawaii we beautiful Hawaii we have i think the average person spends at least 80 percent of his time in in the indoor so having access to to daylighting and a view of the outdoors is a very very important health issue and going beyond that oh when you design for energy efficiency what what do you uh incorporate into your buildings or your retrofits so for energy efficiency you look at the the entire building envelope right um so it has to do with how the structural system impacts you know the thermal the thermal envelope of the building so you're you're you're looking at things like heat gain most of that is through how the building is oriented whether or not it can capture trades whether the whether or not it has operable windows um the thermal gains of the solar gain through the through the windows into the occupants obviously southern southern facing exposures being in the southern hemisphere even though we're very close we're much closer to the equator than anywhere else in the u.s. um is very real and so taking into account all of those and then building insulation itself either within the walls or within the within the roof envelope or the roof structure is extremely important um we've been asked to evaluate again some health clinics some outpatient clinics a separate client and initially the um the clinic was was operating it was too hot they the h back units couldn't maintain uh the temperature that needed to be maintained for for patient comfort and they wanted to come in and add additional h back units um which would be an increased cost right and uh because they were operating um but they were renting these units so it made sense for them to invest in the new system well we came in and we said well we let's evaluate the building envelope first and we discovered that the uh they were renting the space they didn't own it but the building uh owner did not have proper insulation or at least what we felt was adequate insulation in the in the roof system the roof and ceiling system so we were able to propose and insulate the roof at a fraction of the cost that would have that they would have spent on new h back system um and eliminated their their their need for supplemental light they see that they were renting so that's an example of almost an immediate no-brainer um in implementation of building insulation improving thermal performance that then reduces h back load that reduces energy so that was a that was a nice case study that we did that added value um to the owner but that was one where you know we did we we asked why or dug into dug into what the owner was really was really desiring which was to um provide adequate cooling for the patient now there's different ways you can do that you'd rather provide more cooling or you provide a building that doesn't require as much cooling and the effect is is much better the second way i think yeah another another analysis was was what we uh what is a adaptive reuse building that we're doing here in hawaii where they're converting it from an office building into uh hospitality and it's an old building envelope that has single pane glass and the owner is evaluating what new system to to put in um to install and whether or not what's worth the investment and so we had the structural engineer look at the building sway because it's an old steel frame building and as the building moves with the wind um different curtain wall systems that can they flex with that and then there's seals along each of those joints that then can over time and then let air and and sheet um either infiltrate or a ski right so evaluating if the building needed to be stiffened and if a new curtain wall was put in what that deflection would need to be and then of course if the curtain wall new curtain wall was put in if it's double insulated then what is the thermal savings of that in terms of the amount of heat gain that and then that we had our mechanical engineers evaluate what that reduced heat load would be and what the future anticipated operating costs would be for that so we really had four different consultants working on that that that issue all together um and that's another example of how we will provide um building systems efficiencies to an owner to solve a problem and an investment that they're looking at making long-term and what about window film do you look at film as as another option to reduce the uh solid heat gain coefficient absolutely you can um and we've done that the building the existing building I just described did have a solar film on it but there's limitations to it especially if you're looking at one pane glass rice two pane there's only so much you can do and then once that film over time um you know starts to start to come off then the the cost of labor to to uh replace it uh is exorbitant uh and so in this in our situation it made it made more sense to um to replace the curtain wall um which is not feasible for most clients the film would be probably a much a much better depending where you are the life cycle of building or the life cycle of your curtain wall power that is absolutely um probably a reasonable uh first step or intermediate step um prior to replacing and something we're looking at very carefully in the terms of building codes is reflective surfaces first and foremost a reflective roof and our current energy code actually requires that in our climate zone and the other southern climate zones new construction you must have a reflective roof and it makes so much sense either in a way that we actually took it a step further and specified the california's title 28 which is about 10 percent more efficient than even the the national code and our next step is to specify reflective walls they don't have to be white it is to have certain pigment reflecting materials in the coating so that the sun's heat owns us back to the atmosphere rather than gets absorbed into the walls and then into the living space that's great yeah that reduces uh what's called heat island effect then can uh adjust entire you know it creates micro climates of hot spots especially within urban areas obviously vegetation shielding through trees can can help enhance that but you're you're absolutely right especially the roofing material can can reflect that the the heat from the earth from the sun back into the earth rather than absorbing it creating an agent higher hotter environment with a darker roof yeah we've all been in environments say Kapiolani Boulevard very very beautifully tree shaded that is you wouldn't think of an urban environment like that as being pleasant but by George it is pleasant thanks to all all of those trees no you're exactly right so that clinic that i was talking about that had the the HVAC issue the they have enough cooling they had a dark roof and that's what we did so we not only added insulation but we but we lightened it we created we created white from i think it was originally a like a blue or something like that and i think the roofers that were up there took a took a thermal gauge on it and i think it was 150 degrees different between the dark roof and the light roof wow i have seen differences of over 70 degrees but 150 that means the original roof would be whoa close to boiling point yeah wow very impressive if we have about one minute left any closing thoughts on energy efficiency or adaptive reuse i think well adaptive reuse is is natural it's a natural solution here in Hawaii just because there's there's so few open areas to build ground up so i think most architects you talked to in Hawaii Howard i mean i i'm not special by any means it just has to do with the nature of our market and where we're at but Hawaii can be is it's such a model for the world right based on our increased density based on our limited resources based on you know our our focus on sustainability we have a lot to learn from ancient Hawaiians that set the standard for us that i hope we can get back to in terms of being being better balanced but um everything in Hawaii everything we do comes back to us so much faster you know the cycle of life um you know whether you treat people treat people well um just in passing but that extends to the environment extends to sustainable you know um food sustainability and security to energy security to it's all just so intertwined here and so visceral that it's uh and i applaud you for what you're doing to to help help move that needle and push us forward to a better place so thank you it's a pleasure to do it and thank you and on that very nice philosophical note celebrating all the Hawaiian lifestyle we must bid fond adieu itty ebert thank you so much for appearing on this program thank you hiring this pleasure audience see you next time bye bye